Unconventional product lessons from Binance, N26, Google, more | Mayur Kamat (CPO at N26, ex-Binance Head of Product)

26:39And those people should absolutely pursue it because it would be incredibly fulfilling. And the things that are challenging would also feel not as onerous, whereas for everything else, it would feel like in sacrifice. It would feel like something any to balance. And then you would, again, even if you're great at it, you're not gonna have fun doing it. And at some point, you will not be great at it. For folks that are PMs today, like there's almost an implication their career is heading towards CPO eventually, that's kind of like the latter they're on. What are the, say, top three most common other options you've seen, other paths?

27:15You've seen a folks that you manage so that people can think about, okay, I don't need to maybe just keep climbing slather, there's these other directions I can go. I mean, the number one, and that's I think back to the original question on N26. If you work in an incredibly high growth company, especially FinTech, where there's a higher these people end up being founders because it's probably a whole different kind of track we can go down on. The founding your own company is probably the most kind of obvious slash exciting, alternate path. The only thing I asked there is like, again, the same question, like what you are good at and what you love doing.

27:58The challenges with founding a company is like a large portion of running a company has nothing to do with building a great product, especially as the company gets bigger. I've worked for founders now for 17 of my 20 year career. So even at Google and stuff, like Mikhil was my boss at Google, it used to be a founder. And the CEO is now the thing they tell me when they hire me is like, I wish I had your job. Right, that's because that's what I used to do. That's what I have loved doing. And now I spent 90 % of my time doing stuff that is not the stuff that I truly enjoy. But folks enjoy like building stuff.

28:39There's as a PM, there's a lot of things you don't have control over. And you feel like, hey, that's what's stopping me from growing, that's what's stopping me from truly enjoying. Founding is a great path. You have that control now, you want the decision making. There's rarely times you can say, hey, I just did not work because of that person. If you're constantly hitting that, then founding is a great path for you. Because then you have the ball control for better or worse. The other is just like, I mean, it's less about being a CEO and just like growing your bread and your depth in sort of just the ladder.

29:18So you're incredibly either getting specialized in a specific domain where there is now enough value for you to separate yourself from the path. Right, whether it's like in FinTech, now we have folks who are onboarding experts with KYC, we have people who are fraud experts, they're people who have really great understanding of how card schemes work and how master cards work and where can we get the right incentives for the user, the folks who are experts on customer loyalty and retention. Like, do you build that domain expertise and then you realize that everyone needs that, right? And that could be like an incredible way to specialize.

29:57So you may not be, you may need growth at certain team even though you're not a CPU. So that's kind of the second way of doing it. And the third one, again, just not to knock it out is you will have, you realize that work is not going to be my big part of my identity. My identity is who I'm as a parent, who I'm as a community member, who I'm as a son to my parents, who I'm as a, as an artist or a contributor. And that's what my debt is going to be a well -rounded person. And a job is, it's great. I'm great at it. But I'm going to do it as much as it's needed. And the value and meaning that the top part of the Maslow's pyramid comes from everything but work.

30:41And then you just lead a balance life because then work is a certain portion of it. And the rest kind of fills the picture. So just to summarize these four really good pieces of advice for how to essentially keep your career going and get unstuck and accelerate it is work at companies that are really high growth because your learnings will compound. And also the network you build, you didn't even mention that. That becomes really valuable because especially if the company does well, sometimes companies grow really well and there's extra benefits there. But even if they aren't, you still learn a lot.

31:16Absolutely. Well, that's N26. Like one of the reasons why there are so many founders is the fact that it was a catacly defining like we were the first kind of mobile pack. Right. So a lot of the problems we saw in early days, nobody else saw them. Right. So every product manager had to solve it for the very first time in history. And that kind of is a whole different level of kind of trial by fire. Same thing with that evolution. They're about started about the same time. Those are the companies that show up in like the top rankings because you did this before anybody could do it. And you're learned by literally moving mountains.

31:56I think two is also the fact that you see, we have this whole PayPal mafia. Like when you see this early success, like everyone sees it together. So when they go, they have that network as you said, built in. These are like maybe it's a product manager starts a company, but maybe there is a a business development manager who has also started his company. And now you can you can collaborate and a partnerships. So that that success, the mutual success, which a lot of early start up see, that creates a kind of a more denser network than you working at a large company where not all of you see the success of the same time.

32:36And three comes down to the founders as well. Like they're incredibly mission driven founders. I always find it super admiring now when I look back at Valentin and Max here at in 26 or look at CZ. Like they have reached from a whatever metric you can define of success, whether it's the size of the company, whether it's the personal network. Beyond like whatever anybody would think success means. Right. And then to wake up every day and to do this, hours and hours single day, every single day, the it's you're driven by a whole. These are the these are the voyagers of the, but these are the folks who would go explore new planets in the future.

33:19But the folks who settled out on the seas and 1600s to discover new lab. And that that being access to these people directly is is extremely, extremely empowering. You not just learn from it, but you get inspired by it. If you have an ex definition of success, now your definition of success is 10x, that you automatically push the boundaries more. So I think those two things, those three things, early start, category defining companies, mutual success and creation of net, dense networks and just being inspired by by incredibly, incredibly successful and talented people. You pointed out this really interesting insight that I forgot to mention with the, the list of companies that seem to hire and create the most, the strongest PMs.

34:06There's a lot of FinTech representation there. And I think you touched on why that might be the case because all these problems are extremely complicated and never been solved and you're solving its scale. Yes, the is the thing that what FinTech, which is probably the most interesting is FinTech, you have two customers, you have your usual customers and you have your regulated and you need to keep both of them happy. And usually what makes one happy makes the other one less happy. It's so you are constantly dealing with tradeoffs. Like in most PMs and most companies, you have some tradeoffs, but they're not existential.

34:39Whereas in FinTech, like every tradeoff is existential. Like when you found a company, every tradeoff is existential. You may not exist as a business if you make a wrong decision. In FinTech, a lot of the PMs see that day in day out and that probably kind of conditions them to a whole different level of like juggling balls, then then you would be a PM at other company. Yeah, that's such a good point. Just like really good stakeholder management influence, dealing with all these tradeoffs. I think that's a really good point. I'm going to come back to the strength stuff because that's really important.

35:09And I've been meaning to come back to it. So just to reflect back the four things you pointed out are really what you want to look for to accelerate your career, companies that are going really fast, working on things that you're good at and finding a role that leverages your strengths versus things you're not good at. Not optimizing for comp early, such a good point there. Your point essentially is you'll make most of your comp later, like probably the 50 % the second half of your career you probably make. And I know 10 times more than you make the first part of your career. And so optimize for the future comp, not today's comp.

35:40And then this idea of making sure ask yourself do you want to be CPS? Do you want to go down the C suite route or do you want to maybe probably plan to start a company, something else and then informs the role you're in? Coming back to the strength stuff, how do people figure out their strengths? Do you have any advice for someone sitting around? They're like, what am I actually good at? I don't know. So there's several ways to do it. I remember I read this book. This was, I don't think it's shaped my understanding of it because I was already operating in that mode. But it used to be called like now discover your strengths.

36:12I think in now it's called like strength, fine, two point, oh, it's still like 20 years old now, but there's a lot more newer ways to do it. The two things I've done and they're both kind of, I'm not sure how accessible they are, but I'll give you the examples. So at Agoda, we used to pay a psychologist $5 ,000 for every single P &B interview. So after you finish your PM rounds, we would send you to this psych assessment. It would be a six hour psych assessment. And they would tell me what your strengths are. Not just that it would be an IQ component. So we would know what percentile you are. And not just like an IQ score like Einstein or not, but IQ score across different, across pattern recognition or structure thinking, across numerical ability, wearability, right?

37:04So a lot of people say they hire the smartest people. And I go to be literally hired the smartest people because we paid a psychologist a lot of money to tell whether they're smart or not. But other than that, they also gave you your strengths and weaknesses. It used to be called, I know it's a company still around, you just call Q4. And it's called Q4 because they had this four quadrants on two axis. One is on dominance and one is on warmth, right? So you want people who are high dominance, high warmth, so the Q4 quadrant. And that as you can realize, if you also want smart people to find those who line in that quadrant, it's literally looking through a needle through a haystack.

37:43But when I almost didn't do it, like I was like, this is like, I've been doing product for 15 years. This has been insulting that I need to go do a six hour. The only reason I did it at that time was my son was like four and a half years old. And I was teaching him like, because he was going to go to kindergarten and I was starting like do some math with him. And then in like six months, he knew all the math that I knew. Like he was solving quadratic equations and stuff. And we thought, oh, we have a genius in the house. We got to get him tested. So we were testing him. That's the only reason I took this test.

38:16Because I thought he would be interesting to understand what this process looks like. But then when I got the results, I was like, it was so spot on. It was incredibly spot on. It's like areas where I would do well. Ares where I would struggle and need help. So that's one way to do it. It's super extreme. A little bit, two years ago, we had the opportunities, it's easiest, good friends with Ray Dalio. So we had Ray Dalio come to our executive website and he walked us through how he and his company does strengths assessment. So he has a, that one is a lot more accessible. I think it costs like $50.

38:55You can go to I think research where Ray Dalio strengths. There's a website that you can go in. The way it works slightly differently for executives because you do it. So there's a your component tells you how good you think you are. And then it has your leadership team vote to you on certain different aspects. So there's this two layer assessment. How good you think you are and how good everybody else thinks you are. And then the overlap is where your two strengths are. And as a CEO, I can say, oh, my ear's great at design. Everybody else knows that my ear's great at design. We should give design problems to my right.

39:30So that's another way of kind of. So there's a scientific way of doing this. It's gotten a lot better since I read the book a long time ago. Again, if you're truly truly curious, it doesn't think that long and now it's not more accessible. That's one way to do it. And it kind of separates in terms of execution and some structure thinking, innovation and design, creativity, stakeholder management, EQ. Like you get a little bit of a more scientific picture on what your strengths are. But this is also a simpler way. Like you know, as a PM, you do pretty much a large portion. Everybody does the same few things.

40:11You think that you're designing the roadmap, you're coming up with what you think is the product strategy. There's a lot of time around just managing engineers, making sure they do stuff. There's stakeholder management, marketing, compliance, whatever. There's launch and just tracking data analytics. So this part is true for most PMs. Some jobs require more of one versus the other. And you just know when you do these things, which ones you want you're truly great at and sure have a lot of fun doing. Right? Maybe you just don't like Gira and to take it tracking and just following people on that.

40:50And that's the worst part of your job. Like stay away from like more structured, complex stakeholder management jobs. Or you find that hey, you do really well at that. And somebody asks you like, hey, what are the 15 things we're going to do next week to improve our conversion? You kind of that's where you kind of have a hard time to sit down for hours thinking about it. Then maybe that's not your strength. So what time you kind of build the self -calibration on areas that you have fun doing and areas where you don't have. And then when you look at the next job, just try and gauge, like, are they hiring me because I did really well at some of the stuff that I didn't love doing.

41:33And if that's one to hiring you for probably you're not going to have a lot of fun or or high high acceleration if you go there. There's so much there. There's a, I think an important point that'll add. And I'm curious if you agree. A lot of new people are like new people in their career. Like, oh, I just want to think about strategy. I'm going to think about the big picture. I don't want to just sit there and optimize the roadmap and like, you know, be in Gira. But it's actually that's your job when you're just starting out to be like, like, you need to earn the right to contribute to the big, to the vision, to the strategy.

42:04There's one of the, and there's a pre -conversation you talk about, contrary and view. Like, products strategy by definition seems like a, if this is going to be a controversial. Great. Like, not really. Those, those two words feel very at odds with each other for me. Like a product you have, you have hypotheses. You know, and if you can test it, you don't need a strategy. Right. If I say, Hey, if I build this, and I know this will add this much users and this time with this conversion, make this customer acquisition cost and this LTV, that's your hypothesis. And you could test it in the market very quickly.

42:46And if it works, you have your strategy. Keep doing more of it. Strategies always like keep doing more of it or don't do it. Right. That's all that is to strategy. The key part is just figuring out which one was in which bucket. And if you're really executing fast enough in a kind of a structured experimentation driven manner, your strategy becomes a largely, largely solved problem. It's so for most like, and that's a challenge. A lot of people think that strategy is about like looking at portors, port forces, a lot of slides. We're looking at some data and slicing it and saying we need to go here or there.

43:25All of it is largely a some sort of package intuition. And the challenge with that is usually go with the loudest voice in the room. And if you're junior in your career, it's a very frustrating exercise because you think you know this strategy better. But it's all it is. It's a sense of package intuition. And then the guy with the loudest, biggest title of the loudest voice is going to go do it. He's very early in my career, Jonathan Rosenberg. He was the head of the CPO at Google, like all the PMs reported to him. He was not called the CPO back then. And he had this one thing. He would say all the time that come to me with data.

44:07If you come to me with ideas, we'll go with mine. Right. That was insane. You can come with any ideas. We're just going to do what I think. But unless you come with strong sensors, prove, to write me. So again, strategy is a little bit overrated for product. For market expansions, for investments, for licenses, compliance, several areas where it makes sense. And it's kind of useful. But for most product managers, your strategy should be how fast can I go from hypothesis to data? Right. The faster you can go there, the easier your strategy gets. That is certainly a hot take. So the idea here, I'm curious how you operationalize this with folks said in 26 is it just like, I don't need to see like a whole strategy for the year.

44:58Just give me here's the plan. Here's what we're going to test. Here's a hypothesis. How do you actually, what do you tell your PM team? We use this tool. I'm going to give a shout out to to Statsig because they're awesome. Vijay was just to run the experimentation at Facebook. He's Panas and now has this tool. They said a lot of those. But if you're running proper, proper experiments, I just look at the Statsig dashboards. And I'm looking at experiments. I'm looking at what metrics they're moving. I'm looking at the p value. I'm looking at how quickly can they get to statistical significance? And I'm like, oh, this is working.

45:37Let's do more of these. Right. So now there's some areas where you can't do it. Like in compliance, in like legal aspects, in Europe, especially pricing, in the US, you can run pricing tests in Europe. It's a little bit different. So those areas you would need to have a lot more kind of deeper thinking, understanding of your cohorts, you're coming up with like more structured reason for why you should do it. But you can't really test and know within a couple of days or a couple of weeks at max, whether it's a good idea or not. Those, if there are even irreversible decisions, or they're just extremely time -consuming to find out, then do some pre -work.

46:19You look at largely finding a lot of companies that really look at data without looking at cohorts. You make completely bad decisions, right? Because if you look at your dashboard, it's a mixture of users over 10 years, 20 years, even six months, and they all behave differently. If you look at a cohort level development or certain users, you generally end up making better decisions. But even over there, it's still a lot more, there's a lot of noise between moment you start tracking it, then moment you start making decisions based on it. The world has changed in that meantime. And by now, this was kind of a very foreign concept when I brought this in.

46:59I'm like, oh, the conversions down now, even that the products don't really well, because Bitcoin has crashed, right? Nobody wants to go sign up for an exchange account. So if you just measure pre -enforced, you would think that you have done something wrong in the product. If you measure it as an experiment, you would know that, yeah, the between that variant and control, it's still doing great, even the overall conversion is down. So largely, the more you kind of, one of the first things kind of do when I take on a role, the company already doesn't have an experimentation culture. That's largely why they hire me in the first place.

47:35So one of the first things is to say, how can we bring it in? First, the kind of right culture, the right incentives and the right tools. And then once it's set up, it gets a lot of fun. Get a lot of fun for the PMs because you have kind of democratized performance for the product managers. And the second thing which I tell my PMs now, which is truly kind of empowering, if you think about it, the challenge with being a product manager is everybody thinks they can do the job, right? You go to the CFO might have an idea. The head of accounting has an idea. Anybody who uses the product thinks they have ideas, right?

48:16So at some point in time, you're like, what is my discipline? What is my science? Nobody goes to the accounting guy and says, this is have a great idea for how to cook our books. Nobody does that because it's a science behind it. There's a science for financial forecasting. Even in technology, like a lot of the times, people just don't go and say, hey, just jump this thing and let's use this code that AI code generator is used. There's a little bit of science there. Whereas in product, you largely find that it's a combination of data and ideas and stuff and anybody thinks they can. The moment you build experimentation, you are now made it scientific, right?

48:54Now somebody comes up with an idea, say, that's a bad idea here. This is why it's a bad idea because we have done this experiment six times and it has failed across this user groups at this exact level of like impact created. It kind of gives the PMs the kind of, hey, I'm not just a general purpose technician. I'm a specialist now. It's extremely empowering once we can. It takes a long time to move the team in that direction. But once you get it there, the PMs, it's a natural kind of dopamine head every time you run an experiment and see it more metrics. I'm a huge fan of experimentation. I think most guests of this podcast are on your side of the debate.

49:39I feel like we could do a podcast episode on just how to create a culture of experimentation, how to change culture. This episode is brought to you by Vanta and I am very excited to have Christina Casiopo, CEO and co -founder Vanta, joining me for this very short conversation. Great to be here. Big fan of the podcast and the newsletter. Vanta is a long time sponsor of the show, but for some of our newer listeners, what is Vanta do and who is it for? Sure. So we started Vanta in 2018 focused on founders, helping them start to build out their security programs and get credit for all of that hard security work with compliance certifications like Soctu or ISO 2701.

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50:55And you know, our joke, we started this compliance company so you don't have to. We appreciate you for doing that and you have a special discount for listeners. They can get $1 ,000 off Vanta at Vanta .com slash Lenny. That's V -A -N -T -A .com slash Lenny for $1 ,000 off Vanta. Thanks for that, Christina. Thank you. I want to come back to the question of what N26 has done well to create and hire great pms. So you spend a bunch of time on here's career advice that I often give and what has helped people most in their career. Is there anything just going to close this thread? Is there anything N26 did or is doing that either from the hiring perspective or from training?

51:38I know you haven't been there for the beginning just like as a business as a company that they've done really well that other companies may want to copy. Some of it is just the hiding philosophy. One of the advantages you get for being a big fish in a small pond is you get to have the peak of the cream of the crop. So in Europe here, we don't have the same level of unicorn or deca corn density you have in the Bay Area. Being one of the first ones or the few ones you do get a little bit of that branding working in your favor. So some portion of that is just the input. If you're taking really smart people like very tense at N26 they will become they will stay smart.

52:20Two ways again the level of problems that they work on are harder. Just the printick angle we mentioned and now with this whole experimentation driven kind of change that we made in the last year or so there's also a new kind of tool kit that they get especially if they're going for like larger big growth companies as the next type of the career. Once you kind of this is still so like all the people companies I talk to the amount of companies that are truly world -class at experimentation is so low that if you work in one of these companies and you build this tool set you can build a whole career on this.

52:59You can go to any other company and say this is what I'm going to bring to the table because there's no growth without as I said without compounding wins faster and nothing compounds wins faster than experiments. And there's no saying no company out in the world that says we don't want to grow. So that is an incredible kind of brand that you can build alongside with it. And then the third piece is just the scale. One of the other interesting aspects of banking is what I call a 100 % product. It's actually more than 100%. There are more bank accounts than human beings because a lot of people are more than one bank account.

53:37So you never run out of target addressable market. It's as big as it can get which means that there's no upper round on how much. But at some point if you're building an AI code generator, your market is they capped and maybe developers or people want to be developers or you're building AWS. It's a massive market but it's still like all the company that need online hosting. To look at banking, everybody needs. And the fact that it's all just of the second oldest depending on how risky you are or not, or profession known to man, right. It is a self - hedged product like when things get tough on one side of our business.

54:25The interest rates let's say go high. Spending goes down but we make money on deposits. When interest rates go down, spending increases. So we make more money on interchange. Right? An investment. So it's a very self - hedged business that lets you kind of go through the troughs and the peaks kind of better than most companies. And understanding that how do you build naturally hedged products is probably another kind of reason why it just influences how you make decisions and how do you kind of scale your core product portfolio. Just one example, like we for longest portfolio, about a year and a half ago, we were largely a bank with a card.

55:07And that was, we were the first mobile bank and that was a big enough market. But in the last year or so, we have just, but I stowed that product portfolio. We have a big lending portfolio now. We launched savings last year. We invested heavily in savings because the interest rates were high. It was a super amazing tool to attract new users by offering high interest rates. But as the interest rates are going down now, which is investing heavily in lending because now you can get loans for lower prices, then which was super hard to get last year. So like being able to kind of build products that complement the macro also gives you that kind of additional kind of balancing act that you don't get in typical single focus companies.

55:51So I think it's a combination of few of those things. Being able to get great talent, being able to kind of train them now more so, and especially around experimentation. And just see all the how you can build a product portfolio that complements each other, but also naturally hedges against each other. Just gives you a better kind of well balance way to operate. I think this explains something really interesting as you're talking. It realized that a lot of these companies that produce the best PMs are to your point non -US based, but incredibly successful in their location. And so it draws in the most talented people in that region.

56:29So like and they'll intercom I think technically. So intercom was number one on this list of companies that produce the best PMs intercom, Palantir, Revolut, and then N26, Chime Stripe Dropbox were kind of at the top. And for those essentially are three of those are non like intercom I think was Ireland for a lot of their team is based in Ireland and then Revolut is the UK. And then you guys, so it's interesting that that explains some really interesting insights of just be the best, be the big fish in a small pond, draw in the best talent, and then work on really hard problems and be really successful.

57:02There you go. There's a formula. Yes. Yes. It's very simple but ready to put it down. Oh man. Okay. You interestingly have worked on a lot of different places. I want to spend a little time here. So you worked in Europe, you worked in Asia, you worked in the US obviously. For someone that is maybe thinking about moving out of the US or maybe moving to the US, what have you found or kind of the big trade -offs? Yes. I would say like early, early career you want to be in like intensely talent's dense areas. For all the reasons that we mentioned before, finding the high growth companies, finding the networks that will make you successful, there's no, for general tech, there's no better place than the West Coast of the US.

57:46Not everybody doesn't have the option, especially now with the immigration policies and so forth. I mean things were always hard. They seem extremely harder now. So you may not have that option. But if you do have that option, like I would encourage everyone, there's no better place than the West Coast to start your career. There's some exceptions. For crypto, I would say Dubai is a very strong, very great, has a really high density there. But again, it's a very industry -specific Bangalore, if you're Indian, has managed to recreate some of the magic of Silicon Valley, not at the same scale, but getting better.

58:28If you're in finance, maybe there's London, Singapore and Asia has now at least not as much new innovation, but each of the big companies has a presence there. So at least secondary talent densities there. Those would be your options if the US is not available early in your career. Some ways it helps define you. If you work at Microsoft or Google or OpenAI or some of these companies that become brands later, it's something you can take with you when going part, the second part of your question is, if you decide to move, having that experience and that brand and that kind of achievements there can help you kind of make the fine -grade opportunities elsewhere.

59:19I mean, I've been a little bit privileged that some of these opportunities have found me like end -26 years in Europe or Binance before in Asia where it was, I wasn't really in that super talent dense area in the first place. But like Lux, not a great strategy. If you're planning for it, I would say build it, build your early career in the US. And then honestly, when we moved to Thailand in 2018, it wasn't a, at that point I didn't think I was making a great professional decision. We were just struggling in the US with me and my wife working, both her kids in Seattle were tiny. My daughter had asked them at that time.

1:00:01And she was just constantly sick and it was a struggle for us to kind of manage both work and life. When I talked to her, I'd never heard of the company. And the only reason I ended up taking the job was like, hey, Bangkok's a hot place. My daughter might not have asked them out there and we might have some help in the house. So we could probably balance some of the things that are really not adding value to our life right now. And that was the hypothesis there that we would be, I can do a lot more on work because I was literally not able to focus as much on everything else that was happening.

1:00:42And as I said, everything got an experimentation that we just hit a home run in all the hypothesis. My daughter, like the heat curator asked me my just having like a support structure allowed us just as a family to spend a lot more time with each other and allowed me a lot more time to work. And be on my career when I'm not doing dishes and not doing laundry and not doing of the trash and not knowing the lawn. There's just so much hours that show up in the day that you could be doing things that you're great at and kind of add to your career. And then I just turned out to be just a like a almost like a boot camp where understanding how an experimentation based product culture might work.

1:01:28Because before that I worked at Google, I worked at startups. My whole scheme to fame was like building big stuff. And what else taught me like a lot of the growth comes with like incredibly small things done faster. So it's part of booking holdings. So if you heard of booking .com, it's a $170 billion company. And what's interesting is that 10 years ago, it was a 10 billion dollar company, which sold flights, hotels and cars. Like 10 years later, it still sells flights, hotels and cars. It's a $170 billion company. Wow. It's an incredible growth story. And that tells you like you really don't need from a strategy perspective to do something completely differing.

1:02:10If you can truly compound your growth by optimizing every single thing really, really well. So there are the pros that come with, as I said, when you move, most of the time you're building products that are global, especially if you're based in the US, very few times you're building product that just work in the US. Now that's not true for a lot of the countries like in India, a lot of products are only designed for Indian market, a lot of products in China, only designed for Chinese market. But in the US, you're designing product for the world. And a lot of the times you don't experience the same constraints or you don't empathize with the user at the same level.

1:02:50Because you just haven't lived, just haven't lived that that uses life. So in terms of just being able to calibrate yourself on what a global product might look like, being able to live in different places and understanding some of these constraints first time, definitely a pro. You get to, as I said, especially if you have built that early reputation, you get to work at some of the best companies when you go abroad. And so that's, there's a hit to compensation at least initially for sure. Like nobody pays anywhere close, especially here in Europe. But as I said before, don't optimize for compensation early in your career or even made a part of your career.

1:03:36So if you follow that advice, it will not matter because you will have kind of a something unique to offer. Even if you come back to the US later, right, having kind of worked in different, having understanding, especially if you're in in Fintech where the actual laws are different in different countries. And you that one you truly do not appreciate working in the US. Even at Google and stuff when we would launch products, like, I would be like, oh, the lawyers, they're just making life difficult. Like you just, but the many of now have a two appreciation of how, how different the world truly is.

1:04:14It just makes you a better stakeholder when you talk to the league and team when you talk to compliance team, when you talk to marketing. So I think those are all the pros. The compensation could be the, the con. The other big con is that like today if you're in Silicon Valley, like I spent 15 years in Seattle, I worked at four companies. I could change jobs and stay in Seattle. Like because there's enough companies there, it's not going to run a single at some point in Bay Area. There's no ceiling, right? You can keep growing. The challenge now is that I find my bank, I'm working at a word at some point, I'm defining a new job or because if I, let's say I'm at the CPO level, I want to be CEO now.

1:04:55I go to already has a CEO, right? So I need to find the CEO somewhere else. Guess what? That's company's not going to be in Bangkok. Right? Now I have to go and grow my whole family, right? To Singapore, which I did. Then you hit somewhere over there or then you hit another scene. Now you need to move back on, go somewhere else to Thailand, which I did. And then you're like, oh, maybe there's a great opportunity in Europe, which will give you like a whole different scheme. Then you need to move to Spain, which I did. Right? So this at some point, your family is like, what's happening? We're, it turned out to be, it was what turned out to be one step to go from A to B, is now just every year journey.

1:05:33And so that's something to calibrate, especially later in your career, that it's extremely hard if you like the job and don't like the location or vice versa. Because they're usually come as a package deal now. You see this in Bangkok now where there's not that many great tech companies. And if you're at a go -da and you're doing really well, but it's just one company, like you just don't have options. And especially if you love Bangkok, which is a great city, probably my word for the best needs to live in the world. That's a struggle. You love the city, but if you need to move your career ahead, you need to go somewhere else.

1:06:15So interesting. I feel like Thailand is very popular right now with white lotus. Just see. I think white lotus had like the most of use of any show or some crazy hits. It was very popular. I feel like there's a lot of tourism coming to Thailand more than they had. Yes, yes. Yeah. I want to come back to one piece of advice that we were chatting about before we started recording that I think might be helpful to people, which is, and this is kind of in a different direction. But I want to make sure we touch on it is Shreya Stoshis Point about leverage. I know there's something that you think a lot about.

1:06:49It has this really good advice. And we'll point to the episode if people want to dig deeper around finding the highest leverage opportunities for you to work on as a PM. Can you just share that advice for folks that haven't heard this before? This is true for no matter what part what level of career you are in, but you have a finite amount of time and largely have more problems than you have time to solve them. The question is which ones you work on? This becomes even harder, like let's say you're a CPO now, because all of them are important. Otherwise, they will not come to you in the first place.

1:07:23The question is, which one do you work on? The principle is simple. You work on problems that have a 10x positive or a negative impact. The number can be 10, 5, 300 depending on the finance group, be 100. Some companies might be 3. And in most main tech companies, one of two problems is the growth problem or the compliance problem, because both of them can have a negative or positive 10x impact. And that's what you focus on. That's what you spend bulk of your time. What was interesting for me, my first executive role, so I was Google, I was a product manager. I joined what was white pages back then as a VP of product.

1:08:04There was my first kind of white pages, Alex Algad and Seattle founding legend, three companies, all your Nikons now. Very good personal trend and mentor. What was truly interesting when I joined that they're like, this is your desk, this is the product area. We had two offices. This is when everybody worked in office by days a week. And I'm like, where does Alex sit? He's sitting with accounting rate. And I'm like, I didn't think about it because I thought his office is near accounting, right? Then I find out he doesn't have office. He has like a floating desk. So it's all the other desk were like fixed, but he had a movable desk.

1:08:47And he would move his desk to one of the departments which he think had the highest leverage opportunity. And he would sit there at that desk in that department till that either problem was solved or the opportunity was realized. And then he would literally move his desk and then go to product or tech or finance. And that was his way of like, you could literally visualize him working on the highest leverage problem by his desk moving. And then that combines that with what we talked before about details. And little bit I think it didn't mention it, the about the humility that you need to have to be work in the detail.

1:09:28Not other times, especially later in your career, you're like, hey, this is about this is beyond this is below me. Why do I need to do that? I have so many PMs or data analyst or somebody should do it. Why is it? Why would I do it? And that was kind of again, this quick story there. I remember we were trying to figure out our growth channels. And we found out that hey, we are kind of really tapping out on on paid on social on the referrals. But SEO was something we just hadn't worked on for a while. We're building a callered idea and what we wanted to do was when somebody types of phone number in Google, we want to be the first link to say, hey, there's a spam call or not.

1:10:10There's this whose number it is. And if we could, then we could get them to download our app. Right. That was the hypothesis. So I present at the executive team meeting to Alex, like, hey, I want to have the pool on a higher product manager focus purely on SEO. And because I think that's like one of our highest leverage areas right now. And Alex is like, hey, the whole white page is I built based on SEO. But people who type people's name and the first thing used to be a white page is linked. I'm like one of the best people in the world to work on SEO. I'm like, yeah, so he's like, let me run this product.

1:10:46And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, no, I will be the product manager for this. For however long you need it. And I'm like, how's your gun? I was, they don't worry about it. Just send me over the engineers. So again, he moved his desk to the to where that engine, that product team sat. And for the next three months, he was the product manager on that scrum. So he would come to my product team meetings, give his update on what's happening with the SEO scrum. And then an hour later, I would be in the leadership meeting, giving my update to him. Right. And that's truly he was operating it saying, this is high leverage area for the company.

1:11:20High leverage for my ear. It should be high leverage for me. I'm the best person to do it. I'm going to be in the details and do it. It's easy, same like Binance. Like there were a lot of products that he would just sit on himself. They're very few people at Binance who would say no to CZ. But one of my lead PMs who worked on on the products that CZ worked on, he would tell them all the time. They would just bath the law, the other executives. Like, how is he saying no to CZ? And none of us are doing it. Because hey, that was his product area that CZ was working on. And there was that mutual respect, that hey, we know this thing and he's going to say no to me because probably not a good idea.

1:11:59Right. So that that humanity and attention to detail is required to work on the high leverage problems. A lot of the high leverage problems are not the set not strategy decisions. They are not like which markets to go after and stuff. A lot of them are like why is this thing not working as well as it needs to be? A lot of time the devil is in the details and he needs to be over there. So I've been combining that knowing what is high leverage or not and to both having the visuality and the the patients to be able to go dig deeper and solve that. And some of them are like quick ones. Like if I'm looking today at let's say how many of our signed up users can work into a long term, long term monthly daily active user.

1:12:45Right. That could be like something I focus on for for a month because we're running a lot of experiments on like early onboarding schools early rewards early incentives or the loyalty program. And at some point might be like what the team's got it like I've given all my what I could do there. It's functioning. We have great clients. I can trust their execution on this. Let me just go focus on some of the compliance challenges that we have on fraud issues that we have in France. Those kind of being able to kind of the only way that works for me is I keep a very three calendar because you cannot do this without that.

1:13:24If you have hundreds of meetings hundreds of one -on -ones daily standard, a lot of like recurring meetings, you just can't find time to go work on on high leverage problems. So I would be my kind of other stuff is like keep your should have plenty of open spaces on your calendar. A full calendar is a badge of shame or a badge of honor. These are all some stories that just the metaphor of the moving desk is so good. Like that's the epitome of like what you're describing is what people now call founder mode where the founder just goes in in the details, working on the problem. Brian Chesky actually did this at Airbnb while I was there.

1:14:00He took on a new product and was the like mini CEO essentially. I don't know if he'd call himself the product manager because I don't think he loved product managers. He kind of famously got rid of product managers which he didn't actually but yeah he did that very much. So when he sat with the team kind of created a whole space for the team that he was in. These are awesome stories and a really good example of just a founder using their power to unblock and finding the highest leverage opportunities. To kind of start to close off our conversation, I'm going to take you to a kind of a couple recurring themes on this podcast, recurring segments on this podcast.

1:14:37First we're going to visit AI Corner and in AI Corner I ask what's a way that you have found to use AI in AI tool, bunch of AI tools in your work to work more efficiently to work to create better quality work. I still haven't found a game changer for me personally. Something that I use right now and I'm a little bit not sure that am I not doing something right with other people are or I'm a little bit too jaded for it. But the so we have a lot of we have Gemini across the work. So for meeting nodes and stuff works great especially for folks who don't leave it. Use a tool called writer for our copywriting and UX teams for especially because we are operating in Europe across several languages.

1:15:26So being able to generate that very quickly especially for illustrations and in -app messages and stuff that's been a several tools now but writer just has kind of like the copywriting market is really well done over there. If you ask me across N26 but even when we did this at Binance or at Agoda, there are three areas where AI is complete game changer. Right. One is on coding. Again you can use whatever latest tool for prototyping or not. Most value especially for the companies I have worked at which are fairly large companies, very large code bases. Having some sort of co -pilot that's integrated with your repositories.

1:16:14Rough data may be somewhere between 18 to 25 % productivity boost for a developer which is fairly master. So that's one category game changer. Customer support, game changer. Whether we should do it at scale or not, that's a different kind of more ethical slash human question to ask there. But for solving like the bottom 70 % type problems, why is my card decline, why is the hold on mechanism, what happened to the placement card I shipped, why is it not arrived. Basic questions, AI automating now almost 60 -70 % of that. Customer is getting their real feedback, game changer. And the last one is on just on Throad and being able to just understand patterns better on real customers versus not.

1:17:07And Binance, we had this product where users could exchange crypto with each other. I could pay a bit coin and get like Thai Bath in return. Huge amount of fraud. And they're like using AI just to understand language patterns of fraud search versus not fraudsters. Massive. So again, as a company level, there is an incredible set of advancements across these three areas, developer productivity, customer support and fraud. But for me personally, like I'm like, what would I use that suddenly makes me a better CPO? I'm still struggling a little bit over there. But it's not really, I don't think we need something at that level.

1:17:51Because largely what still remains the domain of humans is decision making and taking the blunt of the impact of what decisions you make. Because I would love to blame AI for some of my bad decisions. The, the smart way. You can still do that. You can still do that even if it's not. Yes. Yes. So, but again, hopeful to generally not a big fan of like the thing I call a little bit jaded, like you have tools now that you write a few things and they make like a long essay for it. And then you have tools that compress long essays into few words. You could have just said few words in the first place, right?

1:18:33And save the whole round trip. It's like a reverse zip. I remember when we had zip and it was a game changer, but there was a big file. We needed to send over slow networks. So you compressed it and sent it and then expanded it. We're doing that at worst now. Right? We have a small thing. We make it big and then send it over and somebody's making it small. So that's, but on these three areas, if you're at all -scale companies, like if you don't have a great tool for development or activity, you're not looking at like essential basic LLM bots toward deflecting customer service and in order to looking at patterns and on user transactions, I use a communication to detect fraud.

1:19:11Like that's the first area I would focus on. Okay. I'm going to take us to another recurring segment on the podcast. It's called Fail Corner. And the idea here is folks like you come on this podcast, there's all these wins, kill an ante cpo this and that and just move into Thailand and it worked out incredibly. What a what a win all the time. In reality, that's not how things go. So the question to you here is just what's the story of a failure in your career when things didn't go well and it was a big deal for you and then what you learned from that experience, how that actually impacted you.

1:19:44Yeah. So what a product site like my probably most spectacular failure was, I was the first PM on Hangouts and if you ask me, kill me, I'll probably say he was my boss then. It was an effort the size I've never seen before or after in my career, we had thousands of people working for me. We had entire power on Google. We had Larry literally sitting with us saying, we can do anything we want to throw them to those and we still didn't manage to build a great messaging product. So when I look at pure like product sense, product decision making was there's several reasons now I had a luxury of 15 years to analyze that on solving for the wrong audience, solving for the wrong DNA of the company.

1:20:38I have this premise that certain companies can never succeed at certain type of products like Microsoft with mobile or Google with social or Facebook with enterprise. It's just the DNA of the founder actively acts against you succeeding there. I would have said Google with enterprise as well, but then Sundar came and Larry was no longer the CEO and that's when enterprise took off. The literally had to change the CEO to kind of win in certain segments. But more and then again, I worked in Nagoda during COVID. So travel company during COVID, Binance during it's probably most tumultuous area of compliance in government scrutiny.

1:21:21So a lot of missteps there around externalities. I think one of the main kind of learnings from that is just don't take on projects that are going to be six months a year because you just generally don't have control over the macro. Things just move way more faster and that's probably cemented my kind of now product philosophy of just doing small things very quickly. If any, most of the time is doing that, you still launch big products, but even over there, we try and kind of get early signals as soon as possible. But because Nagoda, like one of the big projects we launched was we wanted to control the payments infrastructure for all the hotels.

1:22:09And we thought if had that device in the hotels desk, not only for bookings made online, but for everything that happens at the hotel, if we control that infrastructure, not only would we make money, but we had a touch point with the users that went beyond booking the travel. Travel as you know is not a high frequency activity. You book ones, you book six months later. And most of the time people would not come to a go -da. They would just go to Google and go to some other website. So we wanted that like touch point that stayed with them and we thought payments would be a great avenue to do that because that's something you do every day.

1:22:47And again, we did it in the go -da style. So we did it experiment. We started very small and literally went to the mall and bought these $50 Android devices where we had our software that people would could just scan the credit card by camera and charge it. It was incredible. We had thousands of hotels used it and then COVID hits and then there's literally nobody going to hotels anymore. But it took us like six, nine months because of the licenses and so to launch it. And it and hindsight probably, I mean, you couldn't have thought of a COVID with the same, but still the amount of time it took to launch the product was something we could have done better.

1:23:34So learnings for most of it is don't take too long to launch, don't take too long to validate your hypothesis. The Hangout story is amazing. It's like a classic product people now make fun of just Google. I can't you get this right. And it's been changed, names have changed a hundred times. Interestingly, meet ended up being really good. Like Google management. That was the last thing I did when I left Google. Okay. Well, I was like after we build the Hangouts, they're like, okay, this is not going anywhere. We're going to start this new product called Allo, right, which also didn't work. One of the many names.

1:24:07Yeah. But then I said, you know what? Like we should still I could I used to work for for Android enterprise team before. I'm like, what if we just made it an enterprise product? Like let me at least write the spec for it on, hey, what would we do? Definitely for I still called it Hangouts quite enterprise. We really branded it later. But that was my salvaging moment for, but from the sense, I mean, we the Hangout Steam invented WebRTC. Right. Now every single communication in the world happens on WebRTC. So if you think from the cultural and technological impact that that the Hangouts team had is insane.

1:24:48It like every this tool we're using every single meeting product, every single WhatsApp voice calling, video calling, like every tool, everything runs on WebRTC. So for me, technology side, I think that was a pretty massive thing that the team came up with that. That's the power of having Chrome, having a browser also just introducing. Yeah. I mean, yes, absolutely. Final question before we get to our very exciting lightning round. Is there anything else that you want to leave listeners with or maybe a point you want to double down on just to kind of leave it little less, little nugget before we get to the lightning round?

1:25:23I mean, it just summarized, it depends on the audience. A lot of the folks who probably listened to it coming from sort of perspective of like, how does this help me be better at my job tomorrow than I was today? And for them, I would say again, like if you're if you're truly working in areas where you think you're optimizing your strengths and having fun, just keep doing it and just keep that as your kind of not star as you look at new pieces. When you talk to new companies, try and evaluate the overlap of superpowers. Like what is your superpower? What is the company superpower? Will they feed each other?

1:26:00If you get a very strong resonance there, I think that would that would be a great career step irrespective of whether it's in Bangkok or Spain or however the compensation is going to be because truly you will find that you grow much faster because it's a kind of a self fulfilling prophecy at that point. But just keep looking for overlapping superpowers all the time and not just in professional life, like in even the transcends beyond maybe even for relationships and stuff. Like folks who are extremely complementing strengths and who's superpowers feed each other, make for great life partners.

1:26:44So there's maybe that that analogy can be extended beyond your career. Well, that's a powerful point right there. What a cool way to end that. Well, with that, my year we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? Yeah, let's do it. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most other people? The one that I read most recently, so I'm generally don't read a lot of books because I read a lot of content like small content. And tweets and and substats and discords and what's that message is. And so book takes a like a mind's share shift for me to go to read a book.

1:27:28The one I read most recently, which I thought was pretty amazing and a lot of overlap with what I said today. The five kinds of wealth. That one was very well articulated, especially the last point I'm very early. Like one of the potential paths is you just do well on your job and then you find meaning elsewhere. This book is probably an incredible structured way of thinking around it. What is your wealth in terms of your health, your physical health, your mental health, your relationship, your community, and your wealth that you're generating financial wealth is. How do you think holistically?

1:28:06Because at the end of the day, you are what you optimize for. If you optimize for financial wealth, you will become wealthy. But you might not be wealthy in a full spectrum manner. The strengths find their two point. I said very early on. It's still an interesting book to just think about how you would think about your strengths. But again, if you don't want to read the book, I would just do one of these online quizzes for it. But the five kinds of wealth and strength find their two point. Maybe what I would suggest. The first book is by Sahil Bloomfren of the podcast, we'll link to all this stuff.

1:28:38I forgot to mention the story briefly about the strengths finder stuff. So actually, when I was leaving Airbnb and looking for my next thing and even thinking about leaving, I took a strengths test and I was working with executive coach and I saw the results. And she's like, what do you see in these results? What are these results telling you? I'm like, I don't know. She's like, this tells me you should start your own company and work on your own. All the strengths that are popping up here are things that you as a founder need. And that really helped me. What's your one person data point on that?

1:29:09Was it a good one? Was it what is a good decision? You mean? Yes. Oh, I am such a huge fan of strengths finder. And any kind of strengths test. And interestingly, people may be afraid of taking them because I'd be like, here's what I suck at. It always makes you feel good. It's like, here's the stuff you're good at. And it's not like, here's what you're bad at. It's just, here's the stuff you're best at. And it's always positive. It's never like you suck at this stuff. It's just not, it's your strength. So it was a huge win for me. I highly recommend it. Especially if you're trying to make a career move.

1:29:42So yeah, fully lined. Okay. Next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed? The one I saw that kind of like TV shows usually I watch to kind of give a downtime. So usually I watch this periodic shows, the house or big band theory and stuff. The one I saw recently that kind of shook me a little bit was adolescence. Again, it's a tough topic around teenage mental health and and violence and schools and just the way it was shot. Like I would see the first episode even if it's not your genre because it's shot in a single camera motion. And the whole episode for an hour, there's no cut.

1:30:24The camera just keeps moving and it just makes like a desire. You feel we feel a little different watching it. In respect to the topic, which is also pretty intense, just visually you feel different. And if your motion sick like me, like you really feel different. That's wonderful. I would watch that. I need to watch the white Lotus because everybody keeps bringing it every time I tell them I'm from Thailand and I haven't seen it here. So I'm behind on my on my main culture a little bit. Yeah, you are. It's like you and like no one else has not seen it. I think you're the only person left. Yes, I'm the only one.

1:31:03Okay. The other favorite product you've usually discovered that you really love. So products, shall I spend most of my time using banking and treating products. And I would give a plug here if you're in Europe, try and 26 or even revenue to an incredible product. If you're in the US, Robin Hood, just there, the motion design they have done and the onboarding is just enjoy to use whether you use it for banking or trading or just for their card. I just find the product design and motion, especially as you touch and swipe, instead of be done. Anything that Nikita beer launches. So I just downloaded bible study or bible chat yesterday.

1:31:46It's time to read about that. It's like in the top 10 of all social apps. Yeah, it's like a bible study. And I can tell why like I've got three messages right now to take my anxiety by reading bible today. And one of the time I was feeling slightly anxious. So maybe maybe there's some some magic there. But the one app that I would just like for personal, so I used to write like in in India. I write poems going up as a kid. And that was just now this app sooner .com. I can like make songs from them. And they're incredible songs. Like at least I think so. Nobody else thinks it so far. But I just just the fact that you can write something and now you have a song.

1:32:30It's just just magic. And like the first time that yeah, I saw a use case. And as nothing so far that makes me a better CPU right now. But as an artist or at least the batch whom artist, it's just incredible that you can think of something to put it down there. And you can actually see what what would a professional singer and a band and the musician if they were to compose it, what it would look like. So that's probably like the most while that have been by technology or the recent times. The sooner .com. They're onboarding floor socks and they grow products. If I were the PM on soon, I would do things a lot differently, but the core tech is there's magical.

1:33:15I'm a huge fan. One of my favorite things to do soon. I think it's soon or that AI also is just ask it to make a song in the style of a C shanty. It's so fun. And they give you like a few options. So you could be like here's this version that version. Yes. Yes. Okay. Two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful in work or in life? One I kind of relate to the things we talked about is there's no right or wrong decision. There's just low and fast decisions. Now there's some extreme caveats to that around doing something that might kill your user like healthcare or military or or even compliance which can kill your company.

1:33:53Don't use it. But everywhere else in generally goes back to the strategy thing we talked about as well. A lot of the times that if it's you make a wrong decision, if you make it fast enough, you would know it was wrong and you would connect it and you would still do it faster than thinking months for the right decision. So for anything that's reversible, anything that's not going to get you in jail or give you a company, no right or wrong decisions, just slower fast decisions. Final question. You've lived in a bunch of places. You lived in Spain, Thailand, Mumbai, Seattle, I think Texas even for some period for school.

1:34:29College. Yes. There's probably other places which has the best food. Bangkok. No, no question. Basinamba comes closer for some. But Bangkok, you can have a three -month year -end star like one of the top five restaurants in the world. Spain like $500 meal or you can have a $1 street food, stir fried, orkin rice with basil. Incredible. Just the spectrum of entire from the cheapest food you can think about the most expensive food you can think of. In that same like one kilometer walkable area, having like thousands of these, literally it's the density of food like no one comes closer. Barcelona has incredible restaurant, like the best restaurant in the world is like a block away from here.

1:35:20It's called the Srutar. It takes like two years to get on the wait list there. But it's on one end of the spectrum. Barcelona probably comes close second. But that cheap get down to AM, walk down, and have an incredible meal for a dollar. Nothing comes closer to Bangkok. This episode is a great ad for Thailand. Let's go. You definitely got to watch wait Lotus. This was awesome. We covered so much, Grant. I feel like I got to know you so well. We covered so many. Thank you so much of all of this. Yeah. We're not done yet. Two final questions. Working for Spanish online. If they want to reach out, maybe check out if there's roles at N26.

1:36:00And then how can listeners be useful to you? Find me. This one of the things being old is I was one of the first leaders of LinkedIn. So only business of Facebook. So Facebook .com slash comment. Or at N26 .com, Mk at N26 .com. If you're especially curious about how we do stuff here, we are hiring. We are growing really fast. And it's like banking is a great business to be in. We're not going to go out of flavor for the next few thousand years. So if you're thinking of a career, you're thinking about Spain, you know, thinking about Berlin. It's just a whole different interesting lifestyle and different kind of product thinking.

1:36:42Please reach out on any of those channels. If you're in Europe or download or try N26, like we go by the motto, love your bank. I found her say that people would rather go to a dentist than to a bank branch. And that's why we build those. We truly feel like for an everyday bank, you use the app and you feel like how long they use my banking app everyday. There's a sum bit of magic, which I didn't have that much contribution yet. I made it a little bit simple and seamless, but magic was there before. And so if you're in Europe, you're looking for a new bank account at N26 .com. There we go. My hero, thank you so much for being here.

1:37:25Thank you. Thank you, Lenny. And thank you. Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or a leaving review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's Podcast .com. See you in the next episode.