Alain de Botton: Why You're Drawn to the Wrong People and How Attachment Styles Explain It

0:01Sarah Ann Macklin:This is a Be Well Moment, the most replayed moments from my latest conversation. It's a glimpse into the wider episode, which you can find linked in the show notes below. Because sometimes one small moment is enough to reconnect to living well and being well.

0:22Sarah Ann Macklin:What's the most common attachment style that you think that you see?

0:26Alain de Botton:look the most common dynamic that you get is someone standing too close and someone standing too far away in other words someone proverbially is is feeling that avoidance sense i'm being engulfed someone's engulfing me and and then someone else is feeling that anxious sense of i'm being abandoned no one loves me properly and these are two of the most common dynamics in all relationships you know i mean almost and it rotates you know sometimes one person's feeling abandoned, the other person's feeling engulfed, etc. But what do we need to do with these things? Have grown-up, sensible, kind conversations about them within a couple to be able to find a language.

1:04Alain de Botton:And again, something that should be done on an early date. A little bit of public education is important here. That on an early date, someone should go, I skew towards being very anxious in my relationships, or I skew towards being avoidant. Many people don't understand themselves in this. There are lots of people who think they're anxious, who are in fact avoidant, because if you're an avoidant person and you are, as many avoidant people are, if you have experience in a relationship where the other person was avoidant as well, then you will have manifested an anxious pattern. But that still might make you deep down somebody who reacts with avoidance, especially when there is somebody who is more secure, more anxious, who comes into your remit.

1:46Alain de Botton:So it's tricky, you know, working out where one is, is tricky. But at least acknowledging that there are going to be attachment issues all the time is a good starting point. And I have to go gently and compassionately and kindly and humorously.

1:59Sarah Ann Macklin:Is there a way, I've heard that you can change your attachment styles like through the course of your life.

2:03Alain de Botton:I've heard rumours of that as well. We're still, there's some search parties. They're out there. They're still, I think they may have found one person in the South Seas who started 50 years ago and it may now be, yeah. So there are rumours. There are rumours out there, never yet corroborated, that there may be a land of hope and honey with formerly anxious and avoidant people who've become secure. But in the real world, nada, nada, not much change. However, there could be management of a chronic illness. So you can manage your chronic problem around avoidance or anxiety. In other words, warn people, warn yourself, know it's coming, take mitigating steps.

2:48Alain de Botton:You can dial down arguments that might have been running at a 10, and you can dial them right down to a 3. That's major progress, major progress. So dialing down the heat is definitely possible.

2:59Sarah Ann Macklin:I think knowing that you can get a grasp on it, if it feels like it's running the show, is essential.

3:05Alain de Botton:Absolutely. That's a lovely way of putting it. Getting a grasp, making sure it doesn't run the show. It'll be part of the show, make sure it's not running the whole thing.

3:13Sarah Ann Macklin:Is there a reason why we're so drawn to the opposite attachment style?

3:17Alain de Botton:Sure. We're trying to solve something. I mean, this is major insight of psychoanalysis. Freud called it the repetition compulsion, that rather than trying to head for people who won't give us problems, we head for people who will repeat the problem that we knew in our early lives. And the reason we do this is not just that it feels familiar and familiar is good. There's a more hopeful angle. We're trying to solve the problem. As kids, we couldn't solve it. We didn't have the resources, didn't have the intelligence, etc. As adults, we want to return to a problem which defeated us as kids and give it a shot, which is why the children of alcoholics want to find an alcoholic and get them off alcohol, which is why the children of avoidant parents want to find an avoidant and say right let's go to therapy that's that's nirvana to be able to find the problem that you suffered from and solve it

4:03Sarah Ann Macklin:with the tools of adulthood is that why so many of us can get into toxic patterns in relationships and i guess maybe that's quite a heavy word and terminology to use because toxic can feel very profound but is there a reason why we can feel that we're getting into that because we're drawn

4:19Alain de Botton:what we call exciting or even sexy is an apprehension of the familiar problem. And so one way is to say you should try and get excited by somebody else. That's very hard. Easier way is that we should manage people that we are excited by more skillfully than we have done to date. So it's learning the management skills. So in other words, if you're drawn, you know, and that's very handy things like drawing boundaries, knowing exactly what you'll tolerate, speaking with relevant authority on something. In other words, you know, let's imagine you have, you skew towards avoidant partners. They make you feel excited, that distant look, that sense that, you know, you never quite know what they're thinking.

4:59Alain de Botton:So if that excites you, right, you might not be able to change that, but you might be able to handle it better. So very early on, lay down some rules here. So like, you may be avoidant, but I need six texts from you a day. I'm not going all day without hearing. I need to hear. And if I don't get six texts, that's fine, but we'll be ending by nightfall. Now that might take you 30 years of experience to be able to get there and if you make those demands Strangely people you know as teachers know If you're a strict teacher and you arrive at school and you go kids No one's going to shout in this class.

5:28Alain de Botton:No one shouts and they're fine. They don't mind shouting not shouting and similar thing happens in a relationship People will behave to us the way that we ask them to behave to us So if you go into a relationship and you go from you mr Or mrs avoidant, I want six texts a day. They'll do it if you go around going. Oh, do you really love me? you know it's not going to work so you need to slightly bring about the conditions where the behavior you want to see has been asked for directly it's a lot of work to be done internally

5:56Sarah Ann Macklin:to get you to that place yeah and confidence that comes along with it right self-assurance

6:00Alain de Botton:and i think the thing that gives you confidence is having completely messed up some relationships where you didn't do that and you thought and it went completely to hell and that is why people who are a little bit older, dated a while, been in some wars, when they get together on an early date, you can tell because one of them's going, well, the thing I need is da-da-da and the other one goes, well, the thing I need is da-da-da and they're both quite confident and, you know, on a good day that will be a better setup for the relationship.

6:27Sarah Ann Macklin:Is there an understanding that if you have that too much of, I don't know how to describe this, whether it's toxic, excitement, and actually the happiest relationships are the ones that don't have those intense fireworks in the beginning. Is there any truth to that?

6:43Alain de Botton:Look, empirical evidence would suggest that there are people who excite something really quite perverted and damaged in us. And they can often lead to immense sexual excitement, but it's not a good idea. And there is a way in which, after some experiences, one might go, okay, here's somebody. They're not the most exciting person, but they're sane. And oh my goodness, sanity is interesting at the moment. They're reasonably calm. They're not fireworks, but they're something much better, which is they're real and they're kind. And we might sometimes not have tolerated such a person when we were younger, and yet we're ready for them now.

7:28Sarah Ann Macklin:Or good for your nervous system.

7:29Alain de Botton:Yeah, that's right. That's right. There's a lot to be said for calm. I don't want to use a word like boredom but people who are don't insist on ramping up tension all the time they're able to tolerate a steady atmosphere very special people actually yeah i think the nervous system balance in a relationship i think about that as friendships you know the friends that actually make you feel

7:53Sarah Ann Macklin:very calm yeah and relaxed yeah are the ones that you tend to gravitate actually more for a long-term friendship that's really interesting sure that's true i guess that's my own experience yeah from such a different diverse amount of friends and yeah in different parts of my life i mean look

8:10Alain de Botton:sometimes we need to be stimulated and you know a bit of fun but i think maybe the people we come back to are the calm ones yeah yeah i think so thank you for listening to this be well moment

8:23Sarah Ann Macklin:if it resonated the full conversation is linked in the show notes and i hope it gave you a small pause to take a moment for you and to reconnect to living well and being well. If you loved it, please do leave a review, follow the show or share this maybe with someone you love.