Behaviour Change Expert: The Real Reason You Can’t Change Your Habits | Shahroo Izadi

31:40Like, uh, you know, why don't you grab something to change the way you feel? And I think that's one of the things that people often tell me, like, why am I doing this thing? I feel like possessed and it doesn't even make me feel good. And I always say to them, like, it's not in, when you're, when you want to change how you, how you feel, you're not that, we're not that discerning. I'm not trying to feel good. We're just trying to feel differently. And so coming back to the GLP-1s, when that volume gets turned up for me now, it's become a bit of an alert as to maybe I'm not doing the things that I know help me to put a space between wanting to do something unhelpful and following through with it.

32:23And another thing on the GLP-1s, you know, I had a gastric band when I was, I don't know, I'm so bad with times. And I know no one cares, but I always think someone's going to come at me like, she said, no, no one gives a shit. But I think it was about, it was in my early 20s, about nearly 20 years ago, right? I had a gastric band. It wasn't in there for long because I overate and it slipped and I had to have it taken out, which is not uncommon. because a lot of people who end up having gastric bands have difficulty the way that I did, not consuming food emotionally or in large amounts, but also feel desperate that they want to lose weight.

33:03And that's how they got there in the first place, but I'll get off my side box about that. And so what ends up happening is they have the band tightened and then they overeat, which is an objectively dangerous thing to do. It doesn't split, it's a horrible experience. It really is a horrible experience and it's very scary and I was really glad to have it out. But when I see people on GLP-1s who aren't changing anything about the way they eat or like me with the gastric band are managing to lose weight because of, I don't know, net calories of like, okay, now all I have is a tub of Huggendals every day, which is basically what I did.

33:36I wasn't like, oh, now the weight loss is taking care of itself after 20 years or 10 years of me trying. Now isn't the time I'm going to learn how to cook. are you joking me? Now is the time that I'm going to learn how to eat Snickers and wear little shorts. This is my time. I'm going to go learn how to cut vegetables. Are you okay?" So as a result, when the band was loosened or when it got taken out, I gained loads of weight. And so I know there are other people who can speak to what's going on with people chemically and neurologically and physiologically when they're on GLP-1s. But I can certainly tell you what will happen if you learn how to lose weight and don't learn how to keep it off.

34:24And, or rather, don't learn how to eat in order to keep it off or have done it in a way that is impossible to sustain. And one of the things I find really concerning is that the people who in the position that I was in before I sort of unlearned that stuff. Never like to see the scale going up regardless of what the scale says. And so I think we're going to be transferring some eating disorders and the resurgence of thin is amazing and that's okay and we should all go say that. I worry we'll leak into medical overlooking, is overlooking? yeah of people who are objectively unhealthy and malnourished but because they're thin now that's okay anyway i could go on a soapbox about it well i mean i find it interesting because i was like looking at looking at like the kind of research around this with judgment because i think a lot of what we're talking today and we're going to get to it is like self-compassion which you know is like a big part of me and a big part of you you wrote a whole book on kindness and i think You know, when you really boil all of our behaviors down, all of the things that, whether it's food, whether it's how we look, whether it's how smart we think we are, whatever our insecurities are, right?

35:44Wherever we try to like overcompensate or try to get that, I guess, reassurance or that love from the thing that we're doing. Some people, it's work, right? I think rejection and social judgment is a big part of this whole conversation. and I found this really interesting study published last week um where they found that women who lost weight on a zempic and had a zempic face face more social judgment than those that didn't lose any weight at all so like let me just boil this down so in this study participants were asked to evaluate a fictional person based on their weight history the person either lost weight using a glp1 medication such as an zempic lost weight through diet and exercise or did not lose weight at all.

36:30What the results showed was that people viewed those who used GLP-1 medications more negatively than those who lost weight through traditional methods. But the most striking thing was that participants also rated the GLP-1 user more negatively than someone who had not less weight at all. And that's because they had this exemplary quick face. who were the participants what were they viewing did they want to hire them for the or a job would they swap places with them but it's interesting i find like the social judgment on that like we're obviously a lot of us are chasing the thin ideal that we were speaking about right and with that a lot of people are now speaking about this is epic face where you lose so much weight but also a lot of muscle quite quickly so it's quite stark people can see when people are normally using it um and they had the most judgment against that i just find that whole did they know that they were on a zempick that those people were on a zempick because having lived in a much bigger body that's why i'm saying who was it who was saying that who were the participants because i can tell you that if they were most of the people i came into contact with in shops and at school and at uni and on dating sites and wherever else, unfortunately, I don't think the world has changed that much.

37:58So yes, I agree that a person who looks like they're glowing from good habits or healthy habits and is strong and has muscles and I was gonna say bones, but now I'm just describing a land mammal. But like, you know, yes, I can see that compared to that, a person who looks, I don't know, like gaunt and they haven't had a glass of water for a long time, etc. And I imagine that the Ozempic piece there would also be because of what I was describing earlier, which is that there will be a proportion of people who, because they felt that they needed Ozempic in order to bring down their weight, it will have spoken to the fact that they were unable, perhaps, to keep up the sorts of objectively healthier habits that would enable them to balance out at a weight that they were happy with.

38:46That said, do I think that also a ZenPic face is really just lost weight really quickly face, right? That's why I wonder whether these people knew, the participants knew that these people were on a ZenPic and therefore were judging them for having not been able to do it by themselves and just move more and eat less and all that stuff that I heard for a million years. because being in a much bigger body, I refuse to believe, is regarded more positively. I'm not stressing you're lying. No, I'm looking at this. They did know they were on GLP-1. Yeah. So it says the GLP-1 users were socially penalized, not just compared to someone who lost weight through diet and exercise.

39:29They were also rated more harshly than someone who didn't lose weight in the first place. Quite. Because they're cheating, which is just bullshit. yeah it's just ridiculous and also people see it that way i'd like to be clear just in case that clip is clipped i'm not saying cheating can you imagine but don't worry we're not going to make you that way when they don't realize how much harder it is for some people than other people to make those choices and even if it's not whose business is it of yours but i think it shows that how important the social understanding it is so critical in this you know i think there is that ideal that I can't lose weight, I'm going to be more accepted, right?

40:07And it's interesting, I guess, this study is kind of showing this dilemma that people can face. And I guess, in a broader sense, you know, when even if people aren't using GLP-1s, I guess a lot of the things that when people want to lose weight, maybe they think, I'll be more accepted if I'm seen in this way, or people might respect me more in this way. And is that how you felt? Is that how your journey he went. Yes. Yeah. And it was true. Really? Yes. I feel undercover right now sometimes. I think it's really, and also, I mean, obviously it's reinforced also because living in a world where people do behave that way makes it easier then for you to respect yourself because you look like someone who should respect themselves.

40:52I think the mistake we make is we think we will be able to control ourselves and not like food anymore and change the way we behave because we're slimmer. But thin people don't get hungry because they just look in the mirror and they think, what's the point in food? Donuts aren't delicious now that I look so hot. And unfortunately, I have learned this is not the case. You are as hungry. It is as hard. People don't turn up every day complimenting you. And even that will only keep you okay with being hungry for so long before you think, fuck it. So, yeah, no, that's the problem is that the world applauds you.

41:34Life does become easier. In my case, I have to say, so now I'm fit, right? I don't mind telling you, but I spin in the front row and there are very few contexts in which - Apparently we met. That's like what I don't remember. I gotta tell you, when I saw you at spinning, I was like, I remember that on a couple of occasions, I was like, who'd have thunk it? Who'd have thunk it? Look at me spinning next to her. No. Yes. No. Yes, my friend. I was driving to the top of the road for chocolate, usually. I wasn't walking, I wasn't doing anything. And now I'm spinning like a boss. And the reason I make that point is that now, like, for example, now I think I'm about, I don't know, I don't weigh myself, but I must be a few pounds bigger than I was like two years ago.

42:25For sure, actually. For sure. When I see like on camera and stuff like that. I think you look great. Thank you. Me too. And by the way, it's also because nothing has changed in terms of my habits. It'll be my age, it'll be hormones, it'll be like, I don't know, I had a few more days of eating objectively not healthy. Enjoying yourself. Yeah, exactly. But it's not a mystery. And also, the difference is that I'm no less strong when I exercise and I still do all of those things that make me take care of myself and I've realized actually even from a keeping off lost weight perspective if you treat yourself as though you were already worthy enough because you'd already achieve the holy grail of losing weight.

43:14Yeah. You'll realize that there are loads of habits that we are putting on hold for when we've earned them by looking the right way that actually help us to get there more quickly if that's our ambition. I was like, well, when I lose weight, I'll be someone who exercises and drinks water. And it's like, spoiler alert, those things are not unhelpful for weight loss, my friend, you know, like, or weight management. So, um, all that to say that when I was swinging between extremes in my weight, it was because I wasn't fit. And it was because I was doing really unhealthy things and not drinking water and not eating anything remotely, vegetably.

43:54Vegetably. I've never had that one before. Because I mean, unless I was like juicing celery to try to lose weight for like two and a half days and then at KFC again, like I was not wellness. I attended TED earlier this year and I found myself in conversations with the founders of No Watch. You've probably seen me wear something on my wrist and lots of you have messaged me asking me what this is. It looks like a classic watch but it's actually quietly tracking something much more meaningful, your autonomic nervous system. This is the system that governs everything from how you respond, from excitement to anxiety, calm to overwhelm.

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45:23So how did you like intercept that then? Because I think a lot of people will connect to this, especially with food, but also maybe through other habits that they feel ingrained with, whether it's mental health. I think mental health is a big part in all of this as well. How did you stop the swing? I started, the mission stopped being achieve this goal of losing weight. The goal became make it easy to do the things that enable you to lose weight and keep it off. So do the thing. Do the thing. Identify the behaviors that if anyone did in a row, they would achieve the goal that you're after. And then rather than thinking that desire and desperation will be what drive you in moments where you don't want to carry on doing those new unfamiliar things, just trust in the concept of mastery.

46:19You don't even need to trust yourself. So really, I started thinking, you know, when someone in addiction wants to achieve recovery, they don't think about being about recovery every day. They think about the next best choice, you know, one day at a time, because you can't contest that. And those are populations with some of the highest levels of shame and with so much working against them internally, externally. And yet you cannot push against, you know, this works. If I do this in a row and I keep doing this thing in a row, I will get and then sustain this outcome. And so I stopped making it so personal and I stopped making it rely on willpower and thinking that willpower and desire to change myself and being so fed up with myself were going to be the thing that kept me doing an unrealistic thing, being hungry, or even doing just a healthy thing, going to the gym, whatever else, that that was going to be enough.

47:19My plan prior to thinking about changing my behavior to get the outcome that I want or getting better at that behavior in order to keep the outcome that I want was always like, well, if you're hungry, just look in the mirror and you're going to hate what you see so much that you won't eat. I mean, aside from being sad, that's just not going to work. I'm glad it doesn't work. I'm glad that eventually I was like, screw it. I'll be fat. Give me some food. Yeah. I'm glad. Thank God. Um, but yeah, that's the, that's the turning point really. And I always tell people, think about where you want to get to.

47:55Yes. But your plan is thinking about how you're going to stay there and make it easy for yourself to stay there. And that's what you need to learn how to do differently. So I needed to learn how to do a number of things differently if I thought I'm going to wave a magic wand and tomorrow, well, first of all, I needed to really address my second choice. I always thought I have to be in control of my first choice. Like, just make sure there's no this in the house and make sure there's no that in the house. And it's like, no, no, no, no, my friend, you need to think about what you're doing after you think you've been bad.

48:29That for me was when the spiral would begin because I was eating from a place of, I've screwed it, shame, I have to start again on Monday. And even just from a practical perspective, the net damage that that would do to my body, and I don't mean weight gain, although that was obviously one of the things, but just like feeling horrible. So that was your step two. It was all about saying - So when you start spiraling. I had to change, yeah. I had to change the next choice I made when I thought I'd been bad. How did you do that? by thinking about the choice I'd make if I had been good and forcing myself to think that despite the fact I'm going to carry, you know, getting on board with the fact that I'm going to carry all these unhelpful thoughts and ideas that I wouldn't recommend to anyone else.

49:13Like you can only start on Monday, wild, and things like that. Or you have to make it worse before you can make it better. And these things, I would just never recommend that to someone else. Not even if I wanted them to help them, just even if I didn't want them to think I was kind of stupid. You know, like, oh, you have to eat everything in the house. This is your only choice. And so I started thinking, right, what does it look like when I think I've been good? And that can be problematic because a lot of people will then swing back into like a control place. And so what I tend to do is ask yourself, like, what will you feel proud of tomorrow as well?

49:52That's good because that brings in gratitude. your own capacity. Yeah. And also just, it also brings in a little bit of delayed, it brings in a bit of the impulse control, like thinking just maybe if I just gave this another few, however long, how I feel about it would be different. Delayed gratification for me is one that I find it hard to get on board with because as I say, ADHD, my whole world is today. So I can't really rely on that. What I need to rely on is that I can make a choice I'll be proud of tomorrow. I can make a choice that I'd make if someone I really respected was watching me.

50:26I can make a choice that I would tell someone who I really love to make. And that tended to be a nice little criteria to land me in the moderate choice. Right. Because if you just told me, make a choice you'll be proud of, there was a time where I would have been like, celery. You're right? So now over time, as I've refined and understood more who I'm speaking to, I'm more careful in the examples that I give in that sense and more nuanced about it. But that was it. It was thinking about, A, what do I need to actually make? What choices do I need to make easier for myself to engage in and therefore repeat as many times in a row until they're not difficult that will not just get me to my goal, but make it easy to stay at my goal.

51:11So I wasn't terrified and hoping that more self-hate and fear would drive me to build habits. What happens when that comes in? Because I know that this to me makes so much sense and what you're saying, but I can also hear people shouting and going, but then I have this impulse control within me or I have the fear that, you know, there's a comfort of going back to what you know, you know, it's a comfort. So, okay, I rationally know, Shrew said, think about the mastery, go to the next step, think about the alternative, think about what I'm going to be grateful for tomorrow or what the good choice is going to be tomorrow.

51:50But then what if it feels too much? It will sometimes. You should anticipate that it will. That's why you don't want to be trusting yourself in times like this. You want to trust, well, you want to trust yourself to be objectively capable of making the next best choice, which for a lot of all or nothing people like me, it means you're back in the game anyway. Because you're like, yeah, I've been good again. Here we go. I'm good now. I don't want to ruin that. But you also want to assume, you know, there are things that I have had very helpful talking therapy around that have helped me to activate behaviors.

52:22And the way I see that is that I changed, I worked on my thoughts and then it became easier to change my behaviors. There are other things like food and some of them are more ingrained stuff where the self-compassion works, but usually because then it turns into action or inaction. And so for me, I always say like assume that you won't want to do it because if you think that you should want to do it because of the long-term outcome what that ends up doing is reinforcing that you were stupid and weak before and you hate yourself as opposed to you're just finding it hard to do something new in a row because you've done something the other way the whole time so all that does is make us feel like a broken exception again a lot of the time if we're because it reinforces this well I know what to do and I know that it works and I'm still not doing it you know like it's like all right and there's another stick to beat myself with.

53:12Actually, all you want to do is to sit in front of yourself. Sit in front of yourself. There's too much wellness stuff. People are going to think you have to sit in front of a mirror. Sit down and write down if I'm already at the place I want to be. If it's like six months from now, a year from now, whatever. And I'm telling the story of how I got there and why now it's easy for me to stay here. What am I doing differently? What am I not doing that I was doing then? Um, how am I responding differently? Um, usually for a lot of us, it's how do I wish I was already behaving? Had I not learned or picked up or internalized these behaviors and thoughts?

53:52And then you ask yourself, honestly, if I repeat these new choices in a row, do I feel that that will be possible? And I'll often, if not always, it's impossible to push back against that. And so then your task becomes, whether it's external accountability or the way I go about it, because I live alone and I don't like having buddies. I mean, I have friends, but I don't like having like, Oh, did you do? It just makes me want to rebel and be like, go away. You're not my mom. Um, I think that if you just tell yourself that I will want to, throw in the towel. Of course I will. This is new and unfamiliar and that's how change works.

54:35I will go back to all the times in the past when I haven't managed to do this before because that's objectively true. Yeah. A lot of the time. But I do believe that if I make the next best choice in a row this will become easier. And so whatever I need to tell myself to make that happen that's what I'm going to do. Do you know what Matt Hay said to me that's really stuck in my brain? because he's amazing. He's so eloquent at speaking about his feelings. And he's been through, not to get dark here, but like suicidal ideation to depression to autistic diagnosis in his 40s. And I mean, he's been through a lot.

55:11And he writes a lot through fiction, but he also does nonfiction. And I think the reason why he's so successful and sold 10 million books of his last copy was because people relate. He has this way of emotional granularity, which means being able to like express his feeling and people feel really seen. And he said something that, you know, on your worst day, so I'm thinking about the moments when people do self-doubt and go, gosh, I'm going to throw in the towel. He said to me, use your worst days as a reference bank. Don't use your best days as a reference bank. Use your worst days because the worst days you've already got through.

55:48And it's something that just stuck to me because I think we all have this thing when we are in our worst moments to think about all the best times. And it can sometimes make us feel that there's more disparity between the two. It's like, God, that was so good. I'm now feeling so bad. But actually, like, referencing back to, like, your worst days and, like, no, I got through that. I don't know how, but I did. And, like, now I'm here and I'm going through something again, but I was there one day. There's something that I felt, like, so humane about that. Like, actually, that's another build of resilience that's another build on your building block and that I don't know that kind of connected to me that when I know I go through like tough times or days when I doubt myself or all those moments that kind of really rung true to me that I actually now do think hmm let's maybe not just be hyper optimistic here let's actually think about the times when I did get through stuff because I did there's something really empowering about that I also love what he's doing to show us all that we can be vulnerable about things that are scary to talk about and share and demonstrating that we can take care of ourselves and also that at the same time be someone who people wildly wildly respect and uh for countless reasons yeah and to be in the public eye and doing that so beautifully is is really and authentically yeah and um responsibly yes it's really wonderful to see and i think more of us need to see that that's possible particularly women i have to say that it's possible to be respected and at the same time be openly someone who's at risk of struggling and needing to pull back and then also someone who's brilliant, you know, and not but.

57:39But, but, what I was going to say about to build on thinking about your worst day, sometimes when people are telling me that they're finding it hard to make the next best choice, I tell them to think about something they've done that's harder than making the next best choice. And the things that tend to be most powerful, even in a practical sense of getting people to the next choice via believing that they're capable of difficult things, is really personal and is hard to get them to admit is the hardest thing they've done. Because a lot of the time, the hardest things that we think people have done are the things that we aspire to be able to do or the things that we can see and the more I get to know people I mean myself included like first of all the hardest things I've achieved are based in not doing things anymore so just the absence of behavior you're not measuring that all the time either and even and a lot of the time what people are saying to themselves is either I had to do that thing.

58:52I had no choice. So I shouldn't be giving myself credit for it. Like I had to rise to the occasion. It was a horrible situation. Like, yeah, I got through it, but I had to, what else, you know, or they say to themselves, well, I shouldn't have been doing that in the first place. So when people who I've worked with on countless occasions will say to me, like, I find it easier to run a company with 500 people in it or to stand on stage than I do to have some Haribo in my house. If they give the accomplishment the respect it deserves and allow it to have been one of the hardest things that they've done, then it can be an extraordinarily powerful tool in helping them to make the next best choice.

59:42So again, the self-compassion, the lack of shame, the removing the judgment and just saying, that's just the truth. And for as long as I'm embarrassed about it, I can't use it to my advantage, really. I also want to mention about the letter. Because in my new book, I do the present letter and the future letter, um, to yourself because about 10, maybe it was more than 10 years ago, I went to a retreat, um, where they made me do that. I found it so difficult first of all, because I was like, this feels so woo-woo, this is still so so weird. But because I went every year to this retreat, they would post you this letter a year later.

1:00:20There's also something really powerful about writing it and then having someone else post it to you. So I don't know if like, you don't have to go to retreats, you could say to your best friend, like, I'm going to stamp this and can you post this to me in a year? But I remember kind of writing it all down and kind of having this vision. And it didn't, it didn't like, it wasn't like manifestation. It wasn't like this all became true. but it was something that was really interesting that like when you leave yourself enough space like enough time so many things do change that you're also unaware of because when things happen in your present you forget what it was like a year ago you forget how your thoughts have changed in a year you forget all of that and so sometimes we're so fixated in like the next thing that we need to get to the next way we need to improve why we're still not fully there but we forget this like crazy long year that we've been through and the difference of where we were to where we are now you know i think that's so really like so powerful in that and when i was at this retreat and i wasn't a retreat it was a conference like the last few days we did this workshop called um life in motion about like moments of transformation and she said can everyone go around and introduce themselves and what is different about them now to what was different five years ago.

1:01:38Like, what would they not have expected today? And it was so interesting to actually think back to five years ago, to where you were, and I guess for everyone that's like COVID, right? That's 2021. Thinking back to where you were in that moment and where you are today. What did you say? Sorry. Well, I said, hey guys, I am very bad at asking for this, but I wanted to stop for just one minute and ask a huge favor. If you want to hear more diverse conversations from female voices, such as myself, I would love if you could hit subscribe. We work so hard on this show to bring you some of the best guests in the world.

1:02:18And having a female voice sometimes gives a different perspective. And I really want to elevate more of that on this channel. So please hit subscribe if that's important to you, as it is to me. So in COVID, I found COVID really hard because I went through a breakup, went back to living on my own. And that was quite scary because the whole world was shutting down and you're like, um, I'm now on my own and I'm not going to see anyone. And I'm quite terrified. We We also filmed Live Well, not Live Well, Live Well, but Live Well hadn't started. We were filming for the not-for-profit that I had, B-Wire Collective.

1:02:58We used to film in these studios. And we used to get, you know, Gary Barlow would come in, he was one of our ambassadors, and he would talk about his eating disorder, he had bulimia, and then we would have somebody who was a bulimic expert come in and talk about it. And we would use these videos to kind of help create a cycle of getting to help people. And that was kind of like my journey, my own personal journey of like where I first started and then COVID started and I was like um how do I film like how do I how do I do these things and I thought maybe I'll start a podcast I was also terrified at the time of listening to the news because every time I listened to the news I felt like I was gonna die yeah because it was like these big broadcasts we kind of all forgotten about how the effect of COVID happened but like every day when I'd listen to the news I'd be like more people have died like I'd be terrified about my family and so I kind of just shut it off.

1:03:48And then what I did was I like, maybe if I start a podcast and speak to experts about lifestyle interventions, but also just about like what we can control and how we can feel, maybe that's going to help people. Maybe it's going to be positive, but also I was like positive for myself. And so I literally just started it in my bedroom with like a 20 pound mic and this guy from Fiverr that I paid like 25 pounds to edit an episode and just started this. I had no idea like even how to like host the podcast like what do I even need a platform like how do I distribute I had no idea for the four days I did the first one and then the second one came out with Victoria Pendleton and she was speaking about like her depression and she said some things she'd never said live before and then that weirdly made the press and I was like this is weird people like listen to the show and it was like this crazy listenership but you know I hadn't like advertised it.

1:04:41And it was not only giving me nourishment, but obviously connecting to other people. So when I was like sitting there, I was like, wow, that was actually when I literally started the show in my bedroom in Brixton. Wow. And just before I came out, we had a billboard in Leicester Square. I was just thinking, maximum respect. Maximum respect. You're someone for whom COVID was important and formative. I just dated losers like it was end of days. I kind of, I worked myself into obsession. Like I kind of use that in my sad state, in a very sad state to like try and make something different. Right. And I don't know, it's a weird thing that when you're thinking about five years, you're like, it doesn't feel that long, but what you can do in those five years is astronomical.

1:05:33Um, I never thought I'd write a book. Like it's all these like weird things. I just never had any self-belief for myself i never thought that i would ever do that and i think that even just a year and like five years we think about five it's not been that long but actually it's massive and i think when we get caught in these loops right within ourselves it's all in that one moment there's there's not the vastness of like there's so much more that can happen in your lifetime because we're so fixated on like the now like with you at the food like this is going to help me now as opposed to that and I think the letter thing is so powerful what you said.

1:06:13Thank you. I think it's that kind of resolutions thinking like the resolutions that are still there are yeah the ones that have sort of stuck around often because you're busy learning other stuff and doing other stuff and as I say you don't know what you've stopped doing even if it's like I've stopped getting in my own way and therefore, you know, we learn all the time. Yeah. It's just often if it's just automated more quickly or we're distracted on our way to something else whilst it becomes automated, you know, always engaging in habits. But I mean, maximum respect to you. That's a lot to do in five years.

1:06:52And yeah, it's interesting about COVID, isn't it? because I've always known that I'm dissociative after and during traumatic experiences. But it's interesting to watch the rest of the world act like it never happened. We all went inside. I know. The whole world went inside. People were fighting in Waitrose for toilet paper and stuff. And now we're like, I mean, there's various domains of society that will very much be feeling it and remembering it. But as a global collective experience. The fact, if you had told me a year before COVID, we're all going to go inside and be terrified and the queen's going to come out and it's going to be serious.

1:07:35I know more serious stuff than the queen came out. But that was a moment for me. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. Oh God. And as I say, I don't want to keep going back to it, but some of the people, myself and other women dated. Do you look at yourself differently now to five years ago? Again, I think it must be an age thing as well. But yeah, I mean, I just don't worry about so many of the things I used to worry about. And the way that I notice it is when I see it in other people. Yeah. Like if I see someone who's really, really codependent, I can see it. Really? Yeah. What do you see? What's the signs that you're seeing someone who's codependent?

1:08:12I can see that they are not going to be okay without, they can fit, you know, their body cannot be calm without someone saying that someone else, something outside of them, the same way addiction works, you know, kind of like getting a hit on that and then it doesn't relieve them for long because it's not substantive for someone to say like, you're okay, I still like you, I'm gonna be there and I feel quite proud that I've got to a stage where I'm not to an unhealthy degree and I very much was I've also got to a stage where I don't kind of rehearse how I should be before I get somewhere because people are going to expect me to be like fun or on form or whatever and actually that means I go to more things because it means I don't flake out I try not to use word flake out because that's how I think other people think that.

1:09:05But I, yeah, I just kind of show up as I am and that's definitely better. And as I say, I'm just more open to getting it wrong. Like I remember my first book, I called my agent and I think the publicist at Pan Mac, Jess, amazing. She was amazing. And I like late at night saying that I I found, I think, one thing, like a typo in my book, and that was going to be the end of me. I was mortified. Now, I mean, this is, you know, the struggle of doing well, but I laughed so much when I saw this review about my book, my most successful book by far, and the one that's helped the most people. I saw a review that said, this is even a waste of digital space.

1:09:59And I thought, lol. Like, genuinely, I just thought, this person is actually really funny. Like, I wouldn't go out of my way to say it online to another human who's gonna read it. But if maybe someone said that to me in a pub, I think it was quite a funny way to diss a book. So, um, I never would have thought that I would hold that kind of thing lightly. And I have to say, that also comes down to the hundreds of people who will write to you and say, thank you, carry on doing what you're doing, or it's helped me, or it's helped my mom, or it's helped my sister or it's helped, you know, my friend.

1:10:33And, and so I, yeah, I wouldn't have thought that I'd be able to internalize the good stuff and the positive stuff enough and be more present and actually think, yeah, thank you. I'm proud that I helped you. And then the gift with that also came that I could hold it lightly that actually, I think being really insecure made me quite self-centered actually. Really? Yeah. Cause it makes you think like they're talking about me, people are doing this, people are doing that, people are doing that. It's an interesting, it's a fine line. The less secure I am, sorry, the more secure I am, the more I'm like, well, I'm a drop in the ocean.

1:11:05I'll get it wrong sometimes. But I think that's human, right? I think like knowing that like, and I think that's the fear of platforms. Like I'm always scared about saying something wrong, but then am I authentic if I not, you know, of course I'm going to say things wrong. Of course people are going to say things. And I don't think there's any like malice in saying that you know it's not like you're intentionally trying to do something wrong but there's always a fear when you put yourself out there that people are going to knock you down and I think that's really I mean even if you're like you're not having a platform and I think you're in like social situations and maybe you say something that didn't maybe didn't go down right and it wasn't for malice you always have that social fear right that oh gosh did I upset that person or was that did I come across in the wrong way or was I just stressed I just didn't think and then we can go that's when like the the rejection and like the the shame and all of those approach in and I think like making that universal because I think the worry if you aren't like that is then you're just not becoming authentic and then it becomes a scripted version of you that yes you're kind of becoming like well I should say these things because I'm scared you know I'm scared of like gosh did I cite this thing wrong or am I worried about saying something incorrectly and then I think you kind of lose part of the human in it I have to say on reflection I mean obviously I agree with you don't be going around trolling people online like you're trying to help um but I do think that it's also um also I don't think that some people should be speaking with absolute license on dangerous nonsense and also I think but that's different that's people who preach and that's people who I think think, maybe act like they do know everything and say it was such certainty that it makes it feel right.

1:12:56Yeah, and they block people who give them any feedback. Don't get me wrong, if someone's hideous, I always think to myself, if someone comes and they start to say onto my Instagram page, and I know that I have a negligible number of followers compared to you, if someone comes onto my Instagram page and decides to be like, it's rubbish here, and starts being beefy, I'll be like, it's the equivalent of me going into a shop and being like, ew. And they'd be like, get out of the shop then. There's loads of shops. The thing I found mad about that, I don't even know how we got on for this, doesn't want to be able to look around.

1:13:25Haters. Haters gonna hate. I mean, some people say things like, oh, I hate her vocal fry on YouTube. What the hell is a vocal fry? The way I speak, like apparently the way that my voice can go. And I'm kind of like, well, then just leave. Like, I don't know. It's weird. I just kind of, there's a thing about where I'm like, I 100 % know that I'm not gonna relate to everyone, because if I did, that would be weird. Like, I'm very aware of that. But I don't know, if there's something... I don't connect to somebody or there's something about someone else that I'm not tuned with, I would just fun follow.

1:14:01Yeah, no, you don't have to be there. I don't know the... I don't understand the, um, the negativity. I think I don't understand the execution, because I've had a number of people very... not even if you'd have to be nice, like reasonably message me and go, Hey, you know, that word you used, like, it's actually not cool. Uh, because of this and I'd be like, Oh, cool. Either I agree. Or if I don't, thanks either way, you know, like, but I always, whenever someone's like really out of order, which is rare, but I'll, but again, my platform is much, so I don't want to speak to people who've got much larger groups of people that they're speaking to.

1:14:39Um, I always kind of go back with, are you doing this because you want me to change? And I know it sounds facetious, but I'm like, I am in the business of change and this isn't going to do it. My whole thing is that hatefulness doesn't create change. That's my whole thing. So I don't know how long you've been around this shop of mine, but that's one thing to absorb for sure. Um, And I do think though, when I started writing books, people would say things to me like, what does it matter? You wouldn't be friends with these people anyway. They're just haters. They're just jealous of you. Actually, no one said they were jealous of me.

1:15:17They would just be like, people are just hateful online and mean and whatever else. And it didn't really land. And I think if I'm honest, it's partly because I had my own insecurities and hadn't quite got straight what I did know, what I didn't know. And so sometimes if someone would ask me something, I genuinely wanted to run into a cave because I was like, I don't know the answer to that. I shouldn't be here. And then I'd be like, I haven't learned the answer to that yet. If I choose to, I will. It's not like I'm incapable. I haven't come upon that information. That does not mean all the other information that could be useful to other people has now gone away.

1:15:52And so for me, that became quite helpful because I was just swinging back and forth between like, like, I'm gonna delete all Instagram and all of it. I hate it. People are horrible. To, well, Donald Trump goes around saying whatever he likes, so maybe I can't. Why does no one... And I was like, these two extremes, dude. And I found a place in the middle where I kind of thought, okay, I don't know everything. I will hear and listen and change and course correct. And I'm pretty sure it's been 40 something years now. I'm not saying that because I'm ashamed of my age. I'm saying that because I genuinely don't remember if I'm 41 or 42.

1:16:34And I have yet to want to hurt other people, not least in order to make money, which I've not been successful at, frankly. So in the pursuit, regardless. And so I'm pretty sure that someone who's coming to be horrible to me is being horrible to themselves and other people also like it's not as personal so those two little kind of hooks have helped me yeah but it wasn't landing to think like well people go around telling people to do all sorts of stuff they tell them to like do bum hole sunbathing have you seen that maybe that might be vitamin d through your bum hole wellness has gone wrong they do dude and listen if it makes you feel good whatever it's true have you not now do you know what now that we've said it and all our phones are in here, you're going to see it.

1:17:26I'm going to see it. Yes, and I'm not recommending it. Do you know what? Just put a bit of sunscreen on there. Sunscreen, that was your first thought. Just make sure there's SPF there. No, but honestly, it's wild. And sometimes I think that when you're on the edge of really getting it right, that's when people know they can come for you because otherwise, they're not coming for the people who give that advice. That's true. I mean, I love, there's been so many moments in episodes where people just say things and I'm like, wow, we were doing a porn episode last week and someone was saying it was a fetish with porridge and I kind of just, it just lost me.

1:18:04It just lost me. I was spiraled. You know what though? That's another thing. Like I wouldn't have been this child even five years ago, 10 years ago. See, and this is the thing, like I know at the beginning you were like, I don't know if I have anything coming back, but I do, like these, these are massive changes. It's just because it now feels more normalized. I've collected data. You've collected data. Just, I have to say, like, I think we give a lot of credit. This is what I mean about like, do it in a row and prove that it's possible. And then the rest does get easier to deal with. I think a lot of the time we're like, I'm not, but I see things like, of course you can do it.

1:18:38You are a goddess and you deserve to do it. And you're a special flower. And sure you are, and we are and great. Um, but if you haven't done it and seen it happen, then in my case, your nervous system is not listening. Whereas what I have done is noticed that every time I was a little bit more myself and said things like that thing I just said and got it wrong. And then people kind of piled on the person who wasn't being taking easy, easy on me. I was collecting data and my body was listening. And so taking the next best step, which for me was behaving as though I hadn't done anything horrible, hideous, which meant not retreating, not spiraling.

1:19:20And ultimately I'm someone who is only ever really making things much better or much worse at speed. So picking the much better, um, meant that I collected enough examples that I know that, um, the more myself, the more myself I am, the better I do, even just work wise. and even if it is because it kind of refines it takes out the people who are not my vibe like Matt Hague says that you do like social like online exfoliation yeah when he loses followers yeah I heard him say that once like when he loses followers because he said something like yeah really nice or correct yeah and it's like well cool go then I want my shop filled with hateful people not even hateful people who hate me you said something really interesting about but other people, which I think we have to end on.

1:20:09You said hatefulness doesn't create change. And that is so much kind of central to, I guess, the entirety of our conversation. It's the centralness part of my book, Self-Compassion. You wrote The Kindness Method. Like, it's, for us, both of us sitting here, it's such a big part of the work that we both do. And I'm, you know, for me, I try and bring in, similar to you, like, a lot of the science, but you also can't forget the Eastern philosophy that connects to this. And I hold them to unequal measures because I think there's so much wisdom in Eastern philosophy. Yes, you can't show association and you can't do all these like random control trials, but I do think also, you know, you have people like Socrates that said, know thyself.

1:20:55The Buddha said, there's no fixed self to know. Aristotle said, you can't love what you don't understand. And, you know, these are going back for years and beautiful, like, philosophy. Kind of think we would have understood that by now. But we find it, and I'm talking from personal experience too, not just everyone, you know, like we find it quite difficult. So why haven't we figured that out? I think we're conflating know yourself with love yourself immediately, forgive yourself for everything. And so I think, if I may, add to Plato, who by the way also has. By the way, you ever want to feel good about reviews?

1:21:47Go read the reviews under Plato's Republic or some absolute masterpieces of work. People will be like, meh, meh. And you're like, okay. I think just a lot of people think that when I say be compassionate towards yourself, the ambition is to love yourself. And it's not. It's just to be fair and reasonable. Human. Yeah. But also just like literally just fair and smart and reasonable the way you would for another person. And so I think knowing yourself and just, you know, I don't think it's about finding yourself. I think it's about meeting yourself, being cool with who you meet, and then going from there.

1:22:28It's so true. Because I think this whole, like, I mean, it's interesting. Again, I'm going to reference where I've just been, because we had so many of these conversations. I hosted a workshop on this and it was 80 % American in the room, 20 % English. And I, you know, I was like, you know, self-compassion can feel so awkward and blah, blah. And all the Americans were like, no, it doesn't. Like we find compassion, like, great. Like, why you finding it, you know, why do you say that people can find it hard? And I'm like, well, in British culture, we can. Do you mean out loud? Do we mix it up with self-promotion?

1:23:02Which I also think is fine, by the way. But do you think that's what it is? No, I think people, I mean, Oliver Bertman said to me, and I always reference them, when you feel the cringe, lean into the cringe. And when someone would be like, oh, have more self-compassion, I would be like, oh, and have this like weird moment of like, well um hmm but that doesn't help no what I need to like keep going and like keep pushing like that's really important for change you know it's like that mindset of like just keep pushing forward but push the feelings back because you've got to keep going you know keep calm carry on it's the very like it's very British term and it was so interesting to see the two different reflections and maybe I just had a way poorer relationship with it before I may have a completely different relationship with now.

1:23:47I don't see it in that way. But I think sometimes, you know, when I can go and do talks around the central theme, there's a lot of people that I can see the resistance in of being like, Christ, she's going to tell me to love myself. And I'm like, no, it's not about that. It's really not about that. But I think that is the analogy in Britain that we can have. And it's really interesting that the Americans don't. I can't speak to that as well as you can but I do think that maybe don't worry about loving yourself and just worry about not behaving as though you hate yourself and start from there maybe so someone listening maybe hates themselves sometimes yeah where do they start well I again I mean hate yourself is honest on a scale you know I'm certainly not speaking to people at the sharp end for whom it would this wouldn't be like a safe conversation.

1:24:36But I do think that, um, a, we should assume that for evolutionary reasons, we are wired to remember our threats and our deficits so we can protect ourselves. So your brain is not there to make you happy. It's there to keep you safe. So just knowing that and going, Oh, of course. Yeah. The kind of catching it, that, that observer stuff, ancient wisdom, vibes and science, uh, helps those fundamentals. um but also again i'm all about do it until you got proof and then you'll feel it and think it i know that there are many different formulas and variations of that all of which work depending on who you're working with and what you're working what you're working with but for me it's always a case of do it in a row notice what happens when it's easier and notice what happens when you prove to yourself that you know how to make it easier to make the next hardest choice and then it makes it easier to be kind to yourself not because you've achieved a goal but because of the capacity that you've shown in the pursuit of achieving it in my opinion I also got to think we've got to remember the pursuit sometimes is the fun part of it even though it doesn't feel like it in the moment it's achievement when you get to maybe where you feel some relief.

1:25:55I don't know about that. But I do. Well, in some contexts, of course, I know what you mean. I'm obviously being contrary, so we have useful stuff to clip up. I mean more that, no, I mean more that sometimes it is difficult on the way. But again, it's about acknowledging that if it wasn't difficult, you would have done it by now. Yeah. And that you're choosing to make it easier. And also, the harder it is, the more transferable it is. I don't mean in like, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I mean, it's not even in that domain. If you allow yourself to think, this was really hard. And so now this other thing in a totally different area that I don't believe in myself.

1:26:37And if I allow myself to think that this was not like objectively marathon hard, but for me was don't eat everything in the house hard, then it's easier for me to draw on that capacity because of the delta, because of the progress that I had and where I started and where I am now and how hard it was for me without judgment. Um, and so now if I want to do something really hard that other people think is really hard, like this kind of thing or speaking on stage, whatever else, I don't think about the things that other people think are hard for me or should be hard for everyone. Yeah. I think about the things that I managed not to do anymore when it's hard or when life is hard and how difficult I found it to stay on track with those things.

1:27:22And so the rewards kind of come out in different places. So last question is, what does live well, be well mean to you? Make the choices you'll be proud that you made when you look back on this moment tomorrow. Make the choices you would tell someone you love to make if they were facing the same challenges that you are to know what the next best choice is. And make the choice that you would make If someone you really respect is watching you and the choices you make will help you to live well and be well, in my opinion. Well, it's a full circle to the very beginning. Thank you. Thank you, Sheree, for coming on.

1:28:04Pleasure. Thank you for having me. I hope you listen to this podcast. I won't have made it to this point. I would have been distracted by a bird or a frying pan that's burning down my house or a meeting that I've forgotten to attend because I am riddled with ADHD. um yeah and on that note whoever has listened to this point thank you