How One Conversation Can Change A Belief You've Held Your Whole Life

0:00Nir Eyal:We are constantly reconstructing our past. That every time you have a memory, you're changing it a little bit. Elizabeth Loftus did this amazing work where she found that she could implant all kinds of memories into people. For example, telling people that they had been on a hot air balloon ride that they hadn't gone on. And not only would they remember the hot air balloon ride, they would tell you about the shirt they wore and the wind blowing through their hair and all these details. I remember when I was writing this book, I have a good friend who I meet for coffee every once in a while. and we sat down together and I told him what I was working on and you know this this stuff about memory and he says I have to tell you something you know my whole life I've had so much trouble with my relationships with women because they they tell me that I'm not I'm not emotionally available enough because you see a problem I've always had since I was eight years old is that I can't cry I have not cried since I was eight years old and I said why what what happened at eight years old.

0:56And he says, you know, when I was eight years old, my cousin died.

1:00Nir Eyal:I had a young cousin, a child cousin. And I went to his funeral and I saw everybody so grief stricken that I decided from that day forth, I was never going to cry again. Until I told my sister what I was struggling with. I told her about how this was affecting my relationships. And it's all because of this funeral that I went to when I was eight years old. And my older sister looked at me and said, you never went to that funeral. I was at that funeral. You were home with the babysitter. He had conflated this thing that had never happened and it had caused him suffering for decades. Now, does that mean that every trauma, everything that had happened to you didn't happen?

1:39Nir Eyal:No, that's not what I'm saying at all. But what I'm pretty sure about, it didn't happen the way you think it happened. Because every time we rerun that tape, we're changing it a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. And so what actually happened many times can be completely different than what actually occurred. And even if, I'll grant you, even if it happened exactly the way you remember, and I've seen some pretty traumatic stuff. I went to a retreat where Byron Katie was working with people who have gone through stuff that you cannot imagine, the worst of the worst. And using that exact same process, is it true what's causing me suffering?

2:14Nir Eyal:Is it absolutely true? How do I feel when I hold on to it? And who would I be without that belief? What you realize is that the same exact event, no matter how horrific, one person can take that event and say, you see, my father was an alcoholic and he beat me. And that's why I'm downtrodden. That's why I struggle so much. Another person can take the exact same type of event. My father was an alcoholic and beat me. And you see, that's why I'm successful. I had to prove him wrong. So it's our interpretation. It's our beliefs of whether it serves us to keep thinking that what happened to us back then is why we are struggling today, why we are suffering, or is it post-traumatic growth?

2:54Nir Eyal:You know, there's two kinds. It's post-traumatic stress as well as post-traumatic growth. And it's all about the interpretation of that story. And I think that's, I'm not talking about the very severe cases. That's not what we're talking about. But the popularization and most important of what I'm really talking about is the self-diagnoses that we see online. Or people saying, oh, this is all happening because of what's happened to me in the past. Is that really serving you? Not sure. How helpful do you think Instagram is with relationships? Because I've got to the point where I feel like I need to unfollow anyone who talks about relationships online.

3:30Because one of my friends said the other day, you know, she came to me and she talked about her relationship. And she was just like, it's driving me mad. Every time I look online, I'm being told a different belief system about what's right in a relationship, what's wrong in a relationship, the green flags, the yellow flags, the red flags. There's this constant overstream, right, of all the things on what a perfect relationship looks like. Or I don't know. I'm sure anyone listening to this will maybe connect to it, like the five things to know you with the right partner. and you just kind of get this belief system in your brain that's being fed to you externally that challenges maybe what your gut is actually trying to tell you.

4:11Nir Eyal:Super interesting. You know, this is not something I talk about much, but I've been married for 25 years in September. Congratulations. Thank you. And we've known each other since I was 19, so even longer than that. And it's been a while since I've heard. I will tell you one of the most, one of the things I, well before I started this research on beliefs, I remember with my wife, I hope I'm not offending her saying this, but I did not fall in love with her immediately. Actually, I didn't think she was so wildly attractive. I mean, I know you're not supposed to say that, right? You're supposed to say, oh, the first time I saw her, she was the most beautiful woman in the world.

4:55No, she wasn't.

4:57Nir Eyal:But the longer we spent together now I think she's the most beautiful person in the world now when I see her like I'm getting goosebumps even talking about her because I Literally see her different like she physically I don't know if I'm sure this has happened to you You see somebody you're like wow that person is gorgeous like that is that is an incredibly sexy person And then they open their mouth Have you noticed this and they they physically become ugly. Yeah. Have you noticed that? Yeah, right? Yes It's like the opposite of beer goggles. Yes, literally. Right? Yeah. Why? It's because of our beliefs, because of how our beliefs shape how we see the world.

5:34Nir Eyal:And so I think there's some kind of secret there. There's some kind of magic that happens that when you build that trust with somebody, when you go the years together and you're able to solve problems. Like somebody asked me about my relationship recently and they're like, how do you fight with your wife? How do you get through stuff? How do you fight? I said, what do you mean by fight? Like, what do you mean? Like, you know, when you, I don't know what that means. Like, my love language is changing my mind. We get so defensive when someone disagrees with us. That's a belief. It's a belief. And by the way, you can see this in different cultures.

6:13Nir Eyal:I know it's a belief because it's not a universal human trait. That in some cultures, disagreeing is great. It's honored. In fact, in my family, that was the case. When we had family dinners, you were expected to come with an opinion to defend so we could argue about it. And in other cultures, no, no, no, no. When you disagree with somebody, that's very disrespectful. So it's just a belief set. So I love it when if someone I trust and I believe is a smart person that I admire comes to me with a different opinion, that's not a fight. That's an opportunity. I want to see things a little different.

6:50Nir Eyal:I want to see how I'm seeing reality incorrectly because I have the intellectual humility to know that I don't see reality clearly. None of us see reality clearly. And so if somebody else that I trust sees things a little differently, well, that's an opportunity for me to get a better sense of how the real world is. So it's something that we welcome that opportunity. It's never adversarial. It's something that's an opportunity. So how do you get to that part in conflict then? So you're both kind of coming in from very different sides. how do you get to the part where you agree to disagree or overlap and can see one another's point of view?

7:26How do you, how does one ego not become more inflated than the other or trying to prove yourself right? Because that's a big part.

7:32Nir Eyal:I think that's, that's absolutely a big part because once a disagreement goes into this land of trying to prove someone right, we shut down. Yeah. Right. We foreclose on that conversation. Yeah. This is, this is the way I am. You know, we talked about how labels are so dangerous. And once it stops becoming a discussion to find a better way, and yeah, a solution, and it becomes defending positions. So one of the best things you can do, you know, this is kind of my line on geopolitics, on why I don't talk politics. Because if you can't in, if you can't steel man the other side's argument, if you can't present in good faith exactly what the other side would think in a way that would convince someone on your side shut up you do not deserve to have an opinion publicly i mean of course you can't i'm not saying you can do anything legally you can say whatever you want it's a free country thankfully but if you can't represent the other side in a way that they would say yeah that's exactly what i believe you should not be spouting your opinion on social media about some geopolitical conflict you don't know jack about because you can't represent both sides And the same could be said about our arguments interpersonally.

8:44Nir Eyal:So one of the best things that I've done with my wife in terms of solving this, and we don't always agree, we definitely have different perspectives, but it's never adversarial because one of the first things we do is, okay, let me understand this correctly. Is this what you're saying such and such and such? And until she says, yep, that's exactly what I'm saying, we got to keep doing that. Like, unless I can actually say, is that what you're saying? And she says, yes, that's right. because most of it is just that we are talking past each other, right? That we assume based on our beliefs. Well, when you said that you tried to hurt my feelings and you're trying to – no, no, no, I didn't – that almost never – it happens sometimes.

9:19Nir Eyal:But if you've gotten to the point where you're trying to hurt each other's feelings, that's already – And you shouldn't be together. It's already in a bad place. What? 99 times out of 100, it's a misunderstanding, right? I remember one time I was looking for a coffee mug or something. And my wife said something like, all the dishes are in the sink. And I heard that as, you haven't washed the dishes in the sink. When she was just saying a statement of fact, all the dishes are in the sink. But you can see how that little statement, right? It was my responsibility after dinner to wash the dishes or something.

9:55Nir Eyal:And I took it as, oh, you meant this. But it was because I was coloring reality based on my beliefs. When if I just took a step back and asked myself, even without asking her, just asking myself, she didn't have to do anything. I was causing myself suffering because I had inserted a belief I hadn't done the dishes. And if I hadn't done the dishes, I was doing something wrong, that she was judging me. But really, I was judging that whole situation. I was causing my own suffering. How did I know what she was saying or what the intent behind it? I knew the words, right? We both heard the same exact words.

10:25Nir Eyal:But that's not the complete information set. There's so much more to that. And I had projected onto it that she was trying to hurt me, that she was trying to say something. And so one of the, I think, secrets to a long-lasting relationship and one of these liberating beliefs that I now tell myself all the time is an answer to this question. So the question is, how do you measure love? When someone says, I love you so much, what's the so much? What does that mean, I love you so much? Why do you love one person more than the other, like a close family member? Why do you love them more than you love somebody else?

10:59And my answer to that is that love is measured by the benefit of the doubt

11:05Nir Eyal:Love is measured by the benefit of the doubt. What do I mean by that? I remember the day my daughter was born. She's 17 now, but I remember the day she was born I was the first to get to wash her I gave her a very first bath and they gave me my daughter and she was exactly as big from my elbow to my fingertips That's exactly how big she was. I'll never forget. I'm gonna cry here I remember the first time I washed her and I looked at her

11:30Nir Eyal:And I remember thinking that she could do no wrong. Like, I loved her so much. This human that wasn't in my life the day before, and now she's here. And I remember just my heart feeling, I just, I loved her more than anything. There was nothing that she could do that would possibly upset me in any way. You know, if she cried, or if she pooped, or she needed something, I just, all the benefit of the doubt. You know, when a baby cries, it's insane to say a baby's crying to hurt my feelings, right? Of course, a baby's crying because it's the best they can do. That's all they have. It's the only tool they have is to cry because they need something.

12:07Nir Eyal:They can't ask you, oh, please, I'd like some milk now. That's all they've got. And so I gave her all this benefit of the doubt. And you know what, Sarah? We're all big babies. Yeah. We're all big babies. We all just grow up and we all are doing the same, the best we can. So my mom, for example, just like I wouldn't expect my baby daughter to do anything but cry. It's the only tool she had. My mom acts the way she acts because it's the only tool she has. It's like me asking her to speak Latin. She doesn't speak Latin. Why would I expect her to act the way I want her to act? She's not trying to hurt me.

12:41Nir Eyal:That's the best tool she has. Even when she is trying to hurt me, that's the best tool she has. And so having that liberating belief, love is measured by the benefit of the doubt. we're all operating with the tools we have that's a liberating belief so I'll tell you something it's not in the book uh is what happened after I wrote this chapter you know I had to tell her I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't publish the book yeah question like so here's what happened relationship with your mom like now so here's here's what happened so I sent her the chapter because I had to get her approval before I could put it in the book you know I didn't want millions people to read it before she did so I uh I sent her the chapter and she read it and I honestly believed that she was going to call me and say, wow, you know, you really were very introspective.

13:20Nir Eyal:You took responsibility for your feelings. Of course, that's not what she said. What she said was, I told you those flowers were garbage.

13:30Nir Eyal:So can I tell you, okay, can I be honest with you and tell you it didn't hurt? Yeah. Of course I felt pain from it. My initial gut reaction. I felt pain. Yeah. But it didn't become suffering. It didn't become suffering. You know why? Because now instead of saying there she goes again. She's so judgmental. She's doing it again. She's always like this Why does she do this to me? Why is she trying to hurt me? Mm-mm. I had a new liberating belief the new liberating belief was All working with the tools we have This is the best she knows how okay, we're all operating with the tools we have you basically have a compassion That's right.

14:02Yeah.

14:03Nir Eyal:Yeah, because because It's it beliefs are tools not truths the belief of giving compassion the belief of we're all operating with tools we have. The belief of love is measured by the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't mean to hurt me when you said that. I was doing that to myself. That was my own cage that I was living in, in my own prison. And that liberated me. I'm out of my cage now. I don't have to suffer when I hear that anymore. Still feel pain, but it's not suffering.