Is Sunscreen Toxic? Dermatologist Explains Chemical vs Mineral SPF, UV Damage & Skin Cancer

28:58Individual experiences may vary, not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. So if it sounds interesting, give it a go and let me know what you think. well I feel like that's something that we should probably I remember I'm going to tell you a horrific story I remember going on holiday when I was very young and I remember my friends I didn't do this because I was modeling so I was always on very strict rules which now I'm very thankful for um and I think I hope touch wood that my skin is is in good shape but I remember my friends putting baby oil on their face. Yeah. Yeah. Because they were like, you know, their skin wasn't tanning as quickly on their face as it was in their body.

29:44So they used to chuck baby oil on their face. And one of my friends got these like goggle eyes kind of because they inflame so badly. I kind of look back now and I go, wow, that's actually quite terrifying just how much we're frying it. And I think a lot of people now have fear, and you sent me this, fear of sunscreen, fear of toxics, fear of chemicals. And we're getting to this interesting space in health right now where we're getting scared of microplastics, so we're not wanting to drink tap water. We're getting scared of what we're putting on our skin. And I have to say, my aunt who had breast cancer was very, very scared of using anything that had kind of chemicals on her skin afterwards, and they were told, always use anything like odorous and so on and so forth.

30:29So what's the understanding here of sunscreen? Is it better to have a chemical one, an organic one, a mineral one? Is it toxic? Like, let's just lay the grounds up before we get into skin cancer. I use them both. So I use chemical and physical blockers. The physical blockers, which is zinc oxide, titanium dioxide, ferrous oxide, which actually doesn't really block much UV radiation. It blocks visible lights, which is good for pigmentation on the skin. And, uh, but the, so I use mineral, but I, I use a lot of chemical sunscreens because they're more elegant on the skin. They go in very easy. They're good for all, all skin types and they're not toxic.

31:10I mean, we have, this is for everything that is currently available on the markets, right? Um, and so everything that we have as of now, there is to me, no risk to using any of them for reducing our lifespan or increasing the risk of developing a malignancy from using sunscreen. One sunscreen, which is octocrylene, which is a chemical-based sunscreen, it's not even on the actual carcinogen list. It can convert, it can break down into benzophenone, which is a class 2B carcinogen. But benzophenone may be in a fragrance you use and you're not even aware of it. So, and that's a problem. Wait, so that's a brand?

31:53That's a brand of sunscreen that you just mentioned? It's not a brand. It's a chemical filter. So, it's a sunscreen that is a chemical filter. So, how would we know that only by reading the back of a label? You'd have to read the label, but it wouldn't tell you benzophenone. It would tell you octocrylene. But octocrylene is what people use on when they say, did you know that this is labeled by the who that this is a class 2b carcinogen and a class 2b carcinogen is the same thing as you eating some asian pickled uh vegetables using your cell phone uh that is classified as a class 2b carcinogen it means we don't actually have data that something is harmful on any human levels it's there may be a potential and potentially things that are harmful we should not worry about we should worry about things that are we know are toxic and harmful just like you have your ear pods in your head you probably wouldn't think you know twice i don't need to use this um uh because the risk is so low about this last week oh did you really all right well maybe maybe something's changing your opinion we had a doctor on here about hearing no he said the same thing he he's you know it's very minimal it's very minimal but i think that there's no doubt to show it.

33:09No data even prove it. It's not even minimal. It's not even, there's no data. And so it's more of controversy. Well, I think this is the thing and I, you know, I don't call people out, but there are so many clips about, you know, the problems of wireless headphones and so on and so forth. I mean, the only reason why I actually switched to the other ones is because half the time these ones cut out, which is just not helpful. It's not to do with my health. It's more, they're just more reliable, the old school ones. But it's interesting, you know, you see all of this online, and you do start getting fearful.

33:44And then I think that actually makes your health worse, because your stress levels are response, you know, that higher and your threat responses on and stress causes inflammation. So I mean, there's, you know, I think we're getting to this place where we have to be really careful on how we're quoting information right now. And I think that's the thing that you sent me on social media was about people being scared of of wearing sunscreen and you know the i guess the flip reverse of it is that you don't wear sunscreen the risks are gonna probably be higher um of you getting getting we know it's we know it's a fact right so we we are worried about things that are not known to be harmful uh we have no data to support it when we have very good linear mechanistic data of how UV radiation induces cancer.

34:33What it does, how it is really imprinted into DNA. So when you look at certain melanomas and basal cell carcinoma, you can actually look at UV-related signatures. So for UV radiation, it's signature seven. So you don't see that signature in other tumors that are not sun-related. So we have mechanisms that cause, we have mechanisms that we know that cause it, we see it in the tumor. And then in addition to that, we have genetic conditions that are very unfortunate where people develop 10 ,000 times more skin cancers, 10 ,000 times more non-melanoma skin cancers, and 2 ,000 times more melanomas than the average population.

35:17It's called xeroderma pigmentosum. And in that condition, these individuals cannot repair, they're called cyclobutane pyrimidine dimers. They have no ability to repair that, and UV radiation is what induces that. So since they cannot repair those dimers, they develop skin cancer even from very, very low UV light. So we have something in nature that shows us that UV radiation is harmful. We have the mechanism affecting the DNA and we see it in real life. So that is what we should be not fearful of. That's what we should protect ourself against versus a potential, hey, I'm worried about using sunscreen because of this.

36:03Now, I will say this. If you're worried about a chemical sunscreen, use a mineral blocker. I don't really care. I use both, but I do not have any care. There should be no excuse not to use a sunscreen that you like. if you want to use a physical blocker or mineral blocker feel free to do it so let's get to this then because i i don't know if they don't think they're in the states but you'll have definitely something very very similar maybe ezra and maybe not ezra i don't know function health stuff but and none of this is advertised by the way i'm not in partnership with any of these people but in the uk there's a place called neko where you can go in and get like a full body scan and it takes I don't know, however many.

36:45Neko Health, yeah. And they basically take a full body scan of you and they look at all of your moles and freckles. And then if there's any that stand out, somebody comes in with this little device that they look through and they check, there we go, that device, which I don't know what it is, but you will tell me, I'm sure. And they will find out if there's any movement of your moles or freckles. and then anyway before this I decided to maybe register on my GP and be like maybe I should get another checkup because I don't think about it very often I did this a while ago but I haven't done one since and I'm not sure how many listeners and I would absolutely love to know in comments on the listeners who get regular checkups so one I want to ask you a few things how often should people be going for these mole checkups because this is one of the leading things I guess that causes the melanoma skin cancer?

37:41And two, is there something very specific that we should be looking for? Because I know that you diagnose more than any other type of melanoma in Arizona than any other dermatologist. You're very specific and you're very specific criteria connected to this. So, you know, I'd love you to take us through the process of what type of mold checkup should we be getting or skin checkup should we be getting? So again, time and length and what should we be looking for when we go for these checkups? So we'll start with when should you get a skin exam? Yeah. A couple things, couple factors. So if you have a family history of melanoma in the States, you can, insurance will approve getting skin exams.

38:24And family history means a vertical relative, first degree. So either mom, dad, brother, sister, or child, you are, your insurance will approve a skin exam with a dermatologist. Okay. When I look at when do I think people should get skin checks in general is if you notice a changing mole, and this is whether you are say, you know, 22 years old or 32, that should propel you to come into the dermatology clinic to get something examined. But probably on average, if you don't notice any moles changing rapidly growing in our 30s, you should start getting baseline screening. And then definitely other factors that play a role.

39:09How many sunburns you've had in your life? How many times you've used a tanning bed? Because that incidence of, in particular, melanoma is much higher in people who have tanned. Even if you've tanned a handful of times in the tanning bed, that does increase your risk of melanoma. The number of burns, a couple of burns, one burn, increase your risk of melanoma. So that would, the context of your history is important, but, and this is important as well. Melanoma is the third most common cancer in individuals in their 20s and 30s. The third most common cancer. So it's just luckily people don't get it much when they're 20 and 30, right?

39:50But it's the third most common cancer. But I also think this is a big thing. I don't think many people think about the C word in their 20s or 30s or even in their 40s, to be honest. I think you start thinking about it as you age. But actually, you know, I think more and more we're hearing about the increase of cancer in younger people, whether it's bowel cancer or skin cancer, and the importance of getting it checked. Now, I think people might not know what to specifically look for when a mole changes. And I'll give you a personal example of this. So I was on holiday in June. And, you know, I've got quite a lot of freckles and moles.

40:28And I was just next to a friend who was a doctor. And he pointed one out to me, said, you should be getting that chet because it looks like it's a bit jagged. Would never have noticed it, ever. I think people think about maybe if it's something, you know, you've got a mole and it's got bigger or whatever. But the ones that are very kind of like soft to the skin, I don't know if maybe it's just me, but we pay attention to them as much. So like, how can we be aware of this and what actually should we be looking for? So a couple of key things here, and this is where there's a lot of nuance between what you can do in your own skin cancer screening at your own house, what you should be looking at on your own skin.

41:08You should definitely get a baseline of what your moles look like, right? You can take photographs of them. You should look in all areas of your body, right? So that means in all nooks and crannies between your toes, see if there's moles there or just spots in general and become familiar with what they look like. The at-home metrics of an asymmetric mole, irregular borders, the color, there's more than two colors or two colors or more, the diameter greater than six millimeters in change, which is evolution, those are very important things. For at-home, you're paying attention to changes on your own skin.

41:48But in the dermatology office, they mean zero to me, absolutely nothing. This year, I have, and this is where my focus of what I'm trying to change within dermatology. So you have a doc, it sounds like a physician say, hey, that mole is a little irregular, you should get it looked at. Well, if they weren't using a dermatoscope, truly, and not just using this, there's a massive gap in the understanding of dermoscopy, what these structures show, and the knowledge base across not just the United States, this is across the world. So people are using this tool, and they don't understand what they're actually seeing.

42:28That's a problem. But for me, most melanomas I identify this year, I've had, I'm trying to think of cases, and I found it is It's August 18th. I have found over 140 melanomas for this year. The average dermatologist finds 20, 20 or 30. So it's August 140 melanomas. Well, and that's because you're using that device. Well, it's not just because I use a device. Yes, this is one, but it's also because my knowledge base on this device is there's massive gaps in our understanding of dermoscopy. So we need to use this device. So when you get a skin check, if somebody is not using a dermatoscope and not just on what they perceive to be irregular, like for instance, I don't, I hope you got that looked at.

43:11I can't see it. So I don't know what it looks like, but I hope you got it looked at. But if they say you went in for your skin check and they just put this down on select moles, they cannot tell you for certain that there is not melanoma there. I look at every single mole, every single sunspot, every single pink spot, because even if it looks normal, completely normal, I cannot tell you that it is not melanoma without investigating it. And that is what that tool provides. It provides detail on the pigment architecture, vascular structures, structures that are present inside the actual skin. So it's not just looking at the outside.

43:50You are taking your purview within the skin. so so guys it's taken me eight years but i finally wrote a book and it's called healthy shouldn't be this hard and actually became bestseller this may very exciting now if you want more self-compassion in your life and you want to know the reasons on why that is so important i tell you all in this book and i give you a lot of tools to help you get there it's definitely been a lifesaver for me. And I know many people that have read it, it has for them too. So if you want to check it out, head to my bio or the show notes below, you'll find the link to the book.

44:32So I think what's really important people to understand here, what you're saying is, because I also will just point out, people also get scared of doing this stuff because they're scared of the outcome, right? It's like, it's fearful. It's scary going and getting this stuff done. But like say people do come in, right? And you're checking with that device that I can't Dramatoscope. Yes. Dramatoscope. Thank you. How quickly can something go to something quite severe in skin cancer? Like, you know, so you have different stages of skin cancer, but how quickly do things develop? How quickly does melanoma skin cancer develop?

45:07Like that's what I guess the most critical point here is for people to understand. Luckily, most melanoma grows slower. There is a rapidly growing type called nodular melanoma that grows fast. So if you notice, say you had a flat mole and that mole turned elevated and not just texturized, but papular, go get it checked. That's an urgency to get it looked at. Most moles or most melanomas, they have a horizontal growth phase. So they grow outward before they dive down. and figuring out when that timeline is, nobody knows. So we do not know if a melanoma is going to sit on the skin and grow outward for 30 years, two years, six weeks before it gets a vertical growth phase.

45:54But we do know that if we find melanoma early, essentially, if you find melanoma when it's in situ, meaning in the top layer of the skin, stage zero, nobody dies from it. We can eliminate deaths from melanoma that are skin related. Unfortunately, melanoma can occur internally, and that is not something we have the ability to screen for currently. But that is the rarity of rarity. You know, it's not something you can discuss how to screen for. But we can screen your skin extremely well, and we can identify melanoma early. If we find it all in stage zero, nobody dies from it. If we find it in very early stages, stage one, the five-year survivorship is 99%, roughly.

46:34Pretty great odds. Soon as it goes past that point, it changes. And so that is really the power of a thorough skin exam with the appropriate understanding, the individual doing the skin check and the tools that they're utilizing. So utilizing a dermatoscope to inspect your skin will help keep you alive from skin cancer. Well, I guess that's actually a lot less fearful for people because I do think, you know, going to get checks on any type of cancer is scary. And that is already a friction point, right? People are like, I don't want to know. And I know people not knowing is worse. But for the time being, it feels safer.

47:17So I think like knowing that actually if you can catch this, I mean, if you can catch anything early, it's the best. But actually knowing that the odds are pretty strong is really important. I mean, I've already, before coming on here, because when I deep dive into research for these episodes, boy, do I deep dive. Even in myself, I know that it's important to go and get this stuff checked. But like, am I doing it? Am I making time? No. But, you know, now I'm doing an episode on this and diving into the research on it. You know, halfway through, I just stopped. And I booked an immediate appointment to kind of get everything checked.

47:52Because I realized, like, how important this is. Have you had a skin check yet? And if you haven't had it, if you've had a skin check, did they use a tool? Did they use a dermatoscope? Yeah, see, it was a couple of years ago that I went and had this done. And that was via Neko. So when they kind of came here to the UK, I was like, oh, this seems, I mean, it's quite a cool experience that you go on. But the thing that I found really great from, they test lots of different things, but the thing that I did find great, I'm healthy, so nothing kind of came up. The only thing that was interesting was the skin mapping, right?

48:26And it was on these molds. And the thing is, if you get it done, you go every year, you can kind of see if things are changing because there's a record, which I think is great. So I think, you know, wherever you go, wherever it is, probably staying with the same place and the same person is probably a really helpful indicator because they'll have all of your notes and past histories, right? That's what I kind of think about. I think it's important. I think that getting full body mapping. So I'm going to dive a little deep onto this here. He's going deep. For me, I need to look at every spot with a dermatoscope.

49:04I don't need to know what your history is. Not that this is a negative thing. It's important to know you as a person and know what your risks are. But what I need to know is I need to understand what I'm seeing inside of your moles. Okay. And that, and I don't care whether you're in the UK, you're in, pick your place in Europe, you're in Australia, New Zealand, South America, there's a lot of dermoscopists there. There, I started my whole social media venture on trying to educate dermatologists. I did this for three years straight. I would post, you know, per year, thousands of cases. And there was a lot of pushback on the cases because there are small lesions that are invasive melanoma.

49:54Okay, these are invasive melanoma. How is that possible? And what I, by doing these, there were quizzes. What I recognized was the deficiency, the massive deficiency that we currently have in the understanding of dermoscopy, which is the field of this tool, a dermatoscope, that is fairly universal across pretty much every country you can think of. We're deficient in that understanding. And for me, my objective has been now to say, look, if you are getting a skin cancer screening, one, we need to make sure people are using a dermatoscope. But two, we need to really identify how to change how we educate people that are providing skin cancer screening, whether that's a GP, a dermatologist, because you can get a screening that this goes back to I think you said your your your mother had breast cancer.

50:50Is that correct? My aunt. My apologies. Yeah. So we we did breast cancer screening from 1930 in 1989. OK. And we did that. well, we tried different modalities. We tried in-office, you know, examination, counseling on home screening, right? To me, that's ABCD and E's of you looking for your moles, but palpating your breasts for lumps and bumps. And then mammography came along. And mammography changed the landscape for us to identify breast cancer. There was a large review in 20... was identified in that through mammograms now the key thing here is not only did mammograms identify it it actually reduced mortality if you can do screening for something but it doesn't reduce mortality is it worth doing screening and that is actually one of the arguments for people not to get full body skin checks oh it's not reducing melanoma mortality on on a population level uh there was a recent article in jamma dermatology this is in 2026 a study done in Germany from 2009 to 2022, the population-based study didn't reduce melanoma mortality when they had population-level cancer screening compared to the other neighboring countries.

52:06That's surprising, but it's not surprising to me at all because, one, dermoscopy was not required. That is a key thing. Dermoscopy is not required. And in addition to that, the education on dermoscopy, where we currently are August 2026 across the world is poor. And for things that are to me, red alarm melanomas, I would expect 99 % of dermatologists to answer that correctly or people that are providing skin cancer screening, and we're not doing it. So we need to augment that. Well, that's what people are now going to know when they go to get their molds checked, that they need this device. They need this device.

52:52I really want to quickly ask a couple of things regarding UV that I think is actually always in my mind with sunscreen. Because we basically talked about it just laying out in the sun or going out and, you know, walking your dog or whatever. But these are things that I actually have no idea on. So does someone need to wear sunscreen if it's cloudy? Yes. what about if you're sitting what if you're sitting beside a window like in a car in a car it depends on the glass and that's the problem with this right so somebody has laminated i know these are the things i hate i apologize because there's so many there's variables so i would say play it safe absolutely so wear sunscreen okay um working from home so you've got like your windows and the sun's coming in?

53:42So not direct lights. I would, so personally in my office right now, I have a window next to me. I don't have sunscreen on. Okay. So it shouldn't penetrate through that glass. Well, it's not, I'm not in the, it can penetrate through the glass, but I'm not in the beam. Got you. Okay. But if you're sitting in the beam, I would personally probably, yeah, I mean, if you're there for 30 minutes, it's going to be low because glass filters some UV out actually, but the glass matters, whether it's laminated, whether it's tempered glass, if it has a film applied to it and, uh, right. Yeah. Instead of like, Oh, it just blocks out UVB and no, it's actually not all equivalent.

54:25Okay. So what about if you're on a plane and you're up and disaster, you should have it shut down. You should have it, the window pulled down. And if you don't have it pulled down, you should wear sunscreen. wow absolutely i've made a big mistake there yeah okay what i like travel a lot um what about if you're sat under an umbrella like at a beach or whatever you know when you're kind of getting your chairs and there's an umbrella there should you be wearing sunscreen yes absolutely reflective light 100 and what color is sand right so sand is going to be mostly light and color and it's reflecting uv see i think people are like i'm sitting in the shade i'm not going to get a tan I know.

55:05You are still getting UV, which sucks. There's a company and I don't work for any company. Blue Lizard, they had a bottle that their bottle would turn blue and it would show you if UV light was hitting it. And it doesn't change from heat. It would just change. So the plastic was made with some polymer that would allow it to change color. Doesn't change the sunscreen color, but it changes the case that's holding the sunscreen to show you, hey, there's UV light in this area. And I move that around all the time to say, okay, I'm underneath a canopy. Why is it blue? And then if you put it in direct light, it's blue, blue, blue.

55:46So yeah. Gosh, that would be amazing if all sunscreens did that. Because it would just be like your visual cue to be like, I need to put on. They'd also make way more money. That is a very good kind of consumer. Yeah, exactly. You'd reapply, then you have to buy more. Yeah. Yeah. I guess you have to figure out the safety profile of a color-changing cream that you're putting on your body. Yeah, that's true. That turns like green or blue to say, hey, is that harmful or is that safe? I have no idea. I know. I always think about that with sweets. Like, what are these colors doing to my body? It's minimal.

56:23Have a couple of Skittles. You're going to be fine. See, the dose matters. It matters, right? It's like walking outside and worrying about. So if I walk outside for two minutes and I didn't have sunscreen on, I am not worried about it. And nor should you. Right? Having a couple Skittles, if there's a little bit of dye in it, it's okay. You know? Now having, you know, straight lining into your vein, that's probably a different story there when it comes to red dye or something. We're going to become a smurf if that happens. It's possible. It is very possible. Okay. I can't leave this without talking about beauty and appearance because, you know, as much as skin cancer is the most important thing when it comes to health, people are vain.

57:05And we all want to look good. And so I think this also is a really important thing. Now, I've had Brian Johnson on the show. I've had Kate Tolo on the show. I've also had a son, Talmadge, on the show. They are obviously doing extreme protocols of longevity. and I have, I sent you a clip actually recently of Kate saying that she is reversing her skin age. I can't remember what it's down to now, maybe like 21. I might be, I'm probably quoting that incorrectly. I think from what I listened to her, that's what she said. She said 20, it was around that. So she's reversing her skin age. Now, what are the things that we can do that are scientifically proven that is going to help reverse my skin age?

57:49So I'm in my mid-30s. What should I be thinking about to keep my skin young and plump? So great. And I just, the reverse skin aging is, and I watched her video. I thought they were interesting. But reverse skin aging is a misnomer. To me, it is you are making your skin look more youthful than your actual age. Is that reducing your skin age itself? like saying, hey, you have the skin of somebody who is, you know, the same metabolics of somebody who's 20 or 30. It is not. But you absolutely can make your skin look much more youthful. So it can look youthful, but it isn't actually in itself youthful.

58:36It's the same age. It's like the whole idea behind weight. It's not reduced. Yeah. So I work out, I still am very physically fit. But my muscles are not the same as I was 20. as I am as in my forties. They're, they're different, but aesthetically they still look very similar to how they look. Um, and that's because a volume is still there. Right. And that is where, when you look at these modalities of what they do. So the number one thing that is going to age your skin is UV light. Number one thing. So if you want to low hanging fruit here, reduce your risk of photo aging your, your skin, thinning the dermis, which is the middle portion in your skin, making the top layer of the skin, the epidermis become atrophic, you need to wear sunscreen.

59:21Depending on your skin complexion and tone, some people actually just by sitting in front of a light, sitting in front of a computer or blue screen. I mean, I'm surrounded by lights right now. I know. I know. Am I aging myself? The light looks good though. It looks nice and even. So it's okay. It's going to make me look younger. It is. Yes. It's going to block out But it's killing me at the same time. That's correct.

59:48But looking at visible light, that can actually create photo aging on the skin. So pigmentation change within the skin. It can increase some vascularity to it. But so sunscreen, one, tinted sunscreen with ferrous oxides or iron oxides is important for reducing the skin pigmentation. But then, so that's the lowest hanging fruit possible. End of story. But what about things like lasers and things like that that everyone's doing? I'm going to go through these stepwise with you and tell you personally what I do myself. So going from there, the next step is using a retinoid. And I think that in that video, she takes isotretinoin or accutane, which is an oral form of a retinoid, but that is very different than how the retinoids work on top of the skin.

1:00:35The oral retinoids are not going to give you the same benefit when it comes to collagen becoming thicker and more plump within the skin. And that is important to know. Oral retinoids like Accutane or isotretinoin help reduce the sebaceous site or the SIBO sites, which are the sebaceous glands, and it shrinks those, so it keeps pores very small. It reduces oil production. But that is a very different process than putting retinoic acid, which retin-a is the most common form that people utilize that is extremely helpful uh at keeping your skin very youthful so if you want to keep your skin looking how it is now and add two decades to you you're going to wear sunscreen you're going to use a topical retinoid preferably uh you know a tretinoin uh to zerotene adapalene something in that that line over a retinal or retinol those are the over-the-counter products.

1:01:32And we have good studies on this where they did biopsies on skin, humans on their skin, not animal models, between looking at retinol and retinoic acid, which is tretinoin, and showing the difference between the amount of pro-collagen that's produced, the thickness of the dermis, and on top of that, the thickness of the epidermis. So initially, people get wary of using a retinoid because your skin gets dry, red, and flaky when you first start it. And the skin becomes more sensitive. But over time, the top layer of the skin actually becomes thicker. So that will, volume is something we lose, unfortunately, in our face and in our body in general.

1:02:12And by using the retinoid, you can restore some of that volume. So that is the two low-hanging fruits everybody should be on. Only caveat is if there's any pregnancy, no retinoid has to be stopped. So, okay. Then three is it's looking at laser modalities. And that's personally what I do for my own skin. So I will do partially ablative lasers, ablative laser that helps with resurfacing. It creates these microthermic zones inside of the skin that make collagen produce. And they're pretty low risk procedures. I'm not talking about doing like CO2 laser, which is much more aggressive. It's beneficial in the right individual.

1:02:57Like your skin from this video, obviously, it's not an exam or no advice, but it does not look like you have any deep lines. It looks like your skin is very good, very few lines in general at all. And so you would not be somebody to be like, hey, go get a CO2 laser. But in somebody in their 30s, there are lasers that creates, they're called microscopic epidermal necrotic debris, MENS. And they create little pores and channels in the top layer of the skin that help the skin look nice, shiny, and creates dermal growth. So it makes it thicker with very little downtime. So I do recommend that to reduce the aging phase, which I do myself.

1:03:43I mean, I've not tried a laser, but I'm very interested to try them. So that is my next one. The other one that I want to ask is there's two things. Do collagen supplements work? And do red light therapy masks work? Because everyone's walking around with red light kind of on their face. Does that help? And do collagen supplements help? They're the two things I think I'm quite interested in. Yeah. So the data on the collagen supplementation is very, very, very weak. I do. But do I actually take it? I do. But I don't really take it so much for my skin. I have taken it since. For my joints. Yeah.

1:04:19There was a study done. I think it was 2011. And I've taken it really ever since. And it was looking at gelatin in general, which is when you're taking collagen, that is the broken down form, right? You're getting collagen from gelatin. Yeah. and uh i've taken ever since my joints honestly have felt pretty good um the skin data i think is very very weak there was some increase in water content when they did biopsies on it uh i would say that it is low it's cheap it's low risk so if you're going to do something that's cheap and low risk i think it's okay uh but i wouldn't be selling it to you to try to make to say, hey, look, this is going to do what tretinoin does.

1:05:03It will not do it. So tretinoin is going to make you develop more collagen in your skin. We don't have the data for taking collagen for that. And then red light therapy, I think that it actually has a benefit. The problem is the dosometry is wild. So when you get a red light device, you think, okay, I'm getting something that's going to be, say, 686 nanometers, and that is going to help. In this study, it's going to help my skin have less lines, less wrinkles, develop more collagen. But the dosing is off. It's not the same for every device. How frequently do you use it? I think we need more data, personally, on that.

1:05:49I think it's low risk in general, but I think we need actually good data. Like if somebody has, say, radiation, we have 1A and 1B level data to show that if somebody has, say, breast radiation or head and neck radiation, so they had a cancer there, that it reduces radiation dermatitis significantly. Wow. And that is amazing. Like every radiation oncologist should know about that study and should recommend it to their patients so that it can help reduce it. But it has to be the appropriate dose. the dose, like if you're going to go stand in red light and be like, it's going to increase my mood and it's going to make my muscles bigger and it's going to make me less fatigued and it's going to make my hair grow, my skin, uh, you know, uh, look beautiful.

1:06:38The dose matters, right? Too much could be harmful, um, to where you're not getting the poison. Yes, correct. Um, too much. You're not getting activation of the appropriate pathways to get benefit. So exactly. But you know, I would go with brands that have actual science behind them and not brands that piggyback off of other companies work because that means they didn't prove it. I know. That's one of the main important things. The thing that I like when I use, I do use a red light mask that actually makes me meditate because I can't do anything and I have to close my eyes. So actually, I just think it gives me benefits of mindfulness because it kind of forces me to be mindful.

1:07:17And I feel like that's proper, that's a good health outcome in itself. So I always think about those things. Obviously, if it's not harmful and it's making you relax. You know, you don't kind of walk around, or I hope people don't walk around, kind of like on the phone when they're on the red light because it's so bright in your eyes. You know, I kind of think the secondary effect actually also works as well. So I like it for that benefit. Whether it's improving my skin, yeah. Well, I'll have to say. I've already just started using one. Yeah, I think over time, it's almost like, so I use something for my hair.

1:07:48I use a laser cap. Oh, yeah, there's a lot. The caps, yeah. Yeah. And so back in 2013, I used to tell people, nah, don't do it. They had trichograms looking at hair follicles and it showed that there was increased hair density, but there was no clinical benefit. But now, 13 years later, I started using one in like 2022. Wow. And so to me, I think it's very low-hanging fruit. The data is good. Go with a company who has done the research before you just buy any laser hat or red light hats. But I think it's beneficial. Yeah. Amazing. Okay. So from everything like on today, I think one of the most important things is about screenings.

1:08:34And honestly, this podcast has – so you've already converted one person. Good. Which you'll be very proud about. Yes. To go and get tested and to do the at-home checks, to wear a cap when they're outside, to make sure that we're putting at least two fingers of sunscreen on our face, at least a cup-side shot amount on our exposed areas of our body. And not worrying about whether it's chemical, organic, or mineral, actually just getting the sunscreen. Yes, I agree with all of that. Daily onto our skin. when it comes to the three steps to take wear sunscreen use a retinoid get laser three good anti-aging things to help keep your skin in the condition it is right now but we actually can't reverse our our skin age it just more of the appearance of how it looks that is a camp that i live in right there so that's my camp yes we make it look great and we can you can but that's what matters, right?

1:09:36You want to keep your skin aesthetically looking great. And so I think, you know, explaining it in that rationale, people want to say it's reversing their skin age. I don't care. I can make your skin. My goal is when I'm 60, my skin looks youthful. So he's not, is he 60 or is he, you know, 50? You know, that's the goal. We want our skin to look radiant. I do think it's one of those important things. There's a couple of things that you can really tell on someone's health, it's their skin and it's their eyes. You know, if their eyes are all bloodshot or, you know, they look, they're not white, you can tell they don't feel like that healthy.

1:10:14And same with their skin. You know, I think you can tell someone's health quite quickly from someone's skin, which I think is, you know, such an important factor of health. It's just also how people judge one another. Whether people say, I don't judge from appearances. Everyone does because it is just a human trait. And so I think, you know, skin health is actually one of those ones where you can tell pretty quickly how someone looks after themselves. So I've learned a lot today. You can see it very, very quickly. It's a visual thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what do you want to leave everyone with today?

1:10:49What is the one thing that you really want people to take away from this conversation? I just told you my takeaways. Yeah. But what do you want people to leave with in today's conversation? So I would say for me, the number one thing I would want people to look into from here is to look into what dermoscopy actually is and understand just like breast cancer screening, we need tools to identify breast cancer, to change outcomes. That's what mammography did it change outcomes and that's individual lives and the more the public becomes aware that their dermatologist or their gp who's doing a skin exam on them if they are and it's not that they're not trying and they're not working hard and they're not trying to take care of you i believe in medicine we have compassionate people trying to help other people um but when things are not required it doesn't mean everybody is going to do it you're going to have high achievers and you're gonna have people do what is required.

1:11:55And as somebody who identifies the most melanomas, this is actually the fourth year in a row, we just got our state numbers yesterday. The most melanomas in the state of Arizona, in all honesty, probably in the United States for melanomas identified. That the tool that I know can save somebody's life is a dermatoscope. And melanoma can look like a flat mole. It can look like a freckle. it can look like a dot. That is not your job to identify it on your own skin. You should pay attention to the standard A, B, C, D, and E criteria, something changing, growing mole, you get that looked at. But when you go in and get a skin exam, it needs to be a dermatoscopic exam so that people can identify melanoma that they're not aware of with their naked eye, and you're not aware of, and that can change your life.

1:12:47Okay, so the one thing that you want everyone to remember is that then when they get their moles checked, to get their moles checked, they have it checked via a dermoscopic, is that right? A device. Yes. Yeah. Correct. Exactly. You are saying it correct. Okay. Well, we definitely have told people that in today's episode. So people can leave comments below. I'd love to know people's experiences of this. I always find that really helpful when people kind of write underneath and tell me like their own experiences of this. So please do. And Michael, I'd love to leave you with the last question I asked.

1:13:18all of my guests on the show, which is what does live well, be well mean to you? It means to take care of yourself, take care of everybody around you and to enjoy life. I love that. Yeah. I mean, the enjoyment of life. I think it's one of the most important things, right? When it comes to health, I think sometimes we can get so specific on the show about, you know, certain verticals, but actually what every person says is just about like joy and connection, which is actually so important. And you lose that if you don't look after your health. Correct. That is what health provides you. It provides you the ability to not, it keeps everything a road bump and doesn't make it a stop sign or a permanent red light.

1:14:04So if you don't want that to occur, take care of yourself, but enjoy it along the way. Don't get so stuck in everything possible of if I don't do this, I don't do that. Do all the main things and enjoy life. Enjoy your friends and have a good time. I'm going to link your Instagram in our show notes because you do so much on kind of bringing out the pseudoscience or misinformation, which I love because I think it's, you know, it's, it's archaic out there. It's hard. It's hard to know, especially on sometimes you trust podcasts and, you know, you're not sure if the information is correct so i would link your instagram below so everyone can go and follow you for everything on skin health um and yeah thank you so much doing all the work that you're doing and saving all the lives and coming on to live well be well i appreciate it thank you for having me on thank you