The Men Named in the Epstein Files: Gurus, Healers & Their Hidden Lives | Dr Gemma Newman

32:42Dr Gemma Newman:um you know how do they treat people and that you can see the difference sometimes between somebody who you think oh my gosh they're so amazing and then you meet them and it's just a massive disappointment I know that because I sent you a voice note after I interviewed somebody you did and that person ended up being in the Epstein files yes and we never aired it yes and that was the hardest moment of my of my be well actually because I recorded and I just had a really heavy dark feeling but I was also I think they say it's really sad because they say never meet your heroes right and there's been a lot of heroes I've met on this show that have made me love them even more yeah and you can feel their energy and I've had them back on the show and they've inspired me and actually they've become my mentors which to me is completely wild because you never think you meet someone and you're heroes and then they become your mentor and that's a whole life-changing experience but obviously we've interviewed so many people on here now and you can't always get everyone to be how you hope them to be and there was that one experience when I voice noted because I knew you were a fan of them too yeah and I voice noted you about the excitement that I was going to have them on and I felt so let down and it was a really hard decision to not put that episode out because everything in me kind of started to question myself was I doing something wrong like was I not prepared enough um but actually I was too compassionate in my in my viewpoint actually like my boundaries kind of did go more so in that because I was trying to move around this person so much and actually there was just pure rudeness.

34:31Yeah. And it completely conflicted everything I thought this person was teaching. And so I made a decision to not put that out.

34:41Dr Gemma Newman:Well, that's a brave decision in and of itself, especially if you want your podcast to grow and you know that that person has a massive following. What made you stick with your gut on that? I think it was odd I think I messaged you first about a voice note um which made it feel that it was real because I think I have a tendency in the past to not actually speak up about how I feel in that moment to not actually even if that person disagrees or agrees with what I'm saying who I'm sharing that with I think the tendency for me naturally was to be like it must be me because I see myself lower than that person who's on.

35:22So that's my fault. But actually it was so obvious that that wasn't the case in this situation. But I think I felt so disappointed and so jarred by the whole thing that I didn't want to do a disservice to my audience. And the whole reason I started this show was to translate ethical health advice and important conversations. And that felt to me really unethical and how that person was treating. like the value set of what they had I can always account someone's having a bad day and I think we all have them I have them I'm sure I've turned up on podcasts and they're like she's a nightmare but 90 % of the time except when you're asking for your granola but 90 % of the time I think I always try and do my actions by my values yeah and there was it was you can see the difference of someone having a bad day and somebody not living authentically to who they persona to be yeah and so something within me just knew that the the advice that I was delivering to my audience wasn't authentic and actually going to be helpful yeah so I just made but it was hard it was hard to cut someone who I knew would give me leverage on the show because again the only way you survive as a podcast is by having people that listen and engage and want to listen to the person that's on your show so it's like a double-edged sword yeah yeah

36:45Dr Gemma Newman:Yeah, it is. And the fact that you decided not to air it is very powerful. And it must have felt very validating to find out later. You sent it to me. Yes. I wanted you to feel validated. You have to trust yourself. You have to trust yourself. Yeah. And that's something, again, I think I feel so passionately about because I have so often not trusted myself as well. You know, wanting to see the best in somebody, wanting to think, OK, it's it's me, not them. And objectively speaking, that's actually just as likely to be them, if not more likely in some cases. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good piece of advice that people can take is to actually watch out for the difference between the public persona and how they treat people with no power.

37:31Dr Gemma Newman:If you have the ability to do that, you don't always. I think another thing is think about who they surround themselves with. I mean, it's not necessarily an ironclad indicator, but if someone's constantly name dropping and constantly kind of interested in their legacy over anything else, that kind of gives you a clue. So I think real wisdom is often a bit more humble as it has a bit more humility about it. And so that's something to be aware of in ourselves and in others. Yeah. Trusting your gut, like you said, just trusting yourself, actually, a bit more. Something that we are conditioned not to do.

38:16Dr Gemma Newman:And I think that's why the whole Me Too movement back in 2027 felt so powerful for so many women. It's because they began to realize, oh, my experience is not the same as the men around me that I love. Or my children or my parents, my sons, my father. My experience of the world and how I navigate it and how I move through it is entirely different from theirs. And they have no clue what goes on. Good men have no clue how bad men treat women because they are not doing it themselves. And that was mind-blowing for so many people. You know, I started to open up conversations around that, as many women did.

39:00And the good men in my life were just completely flummoxed by it, confused.

39:05Dr Gemma Newman:because that's something that obviously they would never experience. So I think having conversations about it is important, and that's why the whole Me Too movement, I think, became so cathartic for so many women, is because you're just so used to just keeping it to yourself or thinking, okay, maybe it's me, and assuming that everybody has that same worldview. What was your response to the Substack article that you put out on the Epstein files with spiritual gurus and doctors? It was overall very positive. And I did have this, I had this sense as I was writing it, because I said to you just now, I wrote it to gather my thoughts for today.

39:42Dr Gemma Newman:And I felt it was a very cathartic piece. I was like, yes, this feels great to write. And then I pressed publish. And then I had this sense of anxiety falling over me thinking, oh my gosh, is that, how is this going to land? Are people going to be judgmental in some way? I couldn't sleep. Wow. Being that vulnerable because I speak on podcasts mostly about wellness nutrition I like to speak a bit about spirituality because I am a spiritual person but I never really have to talk about stuff that's happened to me or things that I've experienced because often I send to my patients so for me it was like oh this is a bit scary but I'm glad I wrote it and there was a lot of positive feedback and people contacted me who I haven't heard from in years.

40:31Dr Gemma Newman:Wow. People who I didn't even know read my substack, contacted me. So many supportive people. And it just made me feel really nice, actually. Did any of them agree? Did any of them say, like, I've experienced this too? Oh, definitely. Yeah. And I had other doctors reach out to me and say, this happened to me as well. This conference or in that situation and it feels horrible and I'm really glad you've talked about it. And I've had, I had one man message me angry on my behalf because he'd had a bad experience with somebody that I had written about saying they treated me really badly. They, you know, they, because he didn't have any power, right?

41:14Dr Gemma Newman:Yeah. It wasn't somebody that could be particularly influential or important. So they treated them badly. And so obviously that's not necessarily for women. I think we experienced that perhaps more in a sexual way because we are women. And so if you have someone who's a powerful man and a heterosexual, then that perhaps is the way that it comes across. But if you're a man without influence or power, then it's probably purely more just disrespect or putting them to one side, casting them aside. But yeah, it was a very powerful, It felt powerful in the sense that I do think it helped people because I also wanted to offer people the takeaways, the important things to trust.

42:04Dr Gemma Newman:And that's why, you know, in our conversation today, I'm talking about at least understanding what does your gut, heart and brain tell you. Don't necessarily always have to act on everything that you feel, know and experience, but have an awareness of it, trust it, listen to it, reflect on it. And don't immediately discount your experience as being something that's your problem. I think, and I don't know if you agree with this, obviously I mentioned that I've become better at trusting my own instinct. But I felt completely lost in that for 10 years because of the conflicting advice that was online.

42:37And maybe I felt like I was falling behind. I felt like I think also when you start studying you realize how much you don't know yes and that also overwhelmed me so I was like wow people are so strong in their opinions but I feel like I've opened a can of worms and now I kind of doubt everything well that's a sign that you've got

42:57Dr Gemma Newman:more knowledge than them that's the irony the whole Dunning-Kruger effect you know somebody's so sure of themselves and their position that they will not be moved is a sign that they probably haven't read enough research or they probably haven't actually reflected on it enough but i think like until i studied science that was completely oblivious to me because these people were so strong and now we have such big camps in different sectors and strong narratives on each one and so to then try and trust your instinct in your gut on what feels right becomes complete overwhelmed because you're having people stand so firmly with a spear and say this is correct and so you end up becoming maybe unconsciously more influenced by this kind of fear that we find ourselves in that's true you kind of almost become paralyzed by it don't you yeah it's but that's that's a tactic as well used in in all sorts of situations that you put out in fact in a way i read about this online there's an attorney that in america was talking about even the way that the Department of Justice released the Epstein files was a almost like a chaos tactic you release three billion pieces of information everybody's like oh what do I do with this yeah because you're gonna have to go through all of them and no one has that time exactly you just you so you're paralyzed into indecision and inaction and I think it's important for us to take a step back and to be aware that that is something that is that we're all prone to to experiencing and to actually again just sit in quietness as much as you can in those quiet moments feel into what feels right and in terms of the science actually that can itself sometimes backfire because your instincts on something could be wrong so it's important for you to actually take in other viewpoints and look at what study evidence is showing you so yeah it's discernment again it comes back to discernment, doesn't it?

44:53Dr Gemma Newman:Being discerning, recognizing your own shortfalls as best you can, but also recognizing your own strengths and not downplaying them. And I think when it comes to science and spirituality, they can intersect. And I like to try to bring those two things together in my life but I think in a way our instincts can sometimes um still lead us astray and when you've got someone like Chopra or other gurus talking about the things like non-attachment we can find ourselves lost in a quagmire of non-feeling or non-trusting ourselves and our own experiences. And I think if your guru or your teacher is very persuasive and there's no accountability around them, it would be so easy for ideas around oneness and how we're all connected to mean, oh, well, I won't speak up about that or I won't take action about that.

45:59Dr Gemma Newman:That's quite culty. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, again, something that we are very susceptible to, especially if we're religious people or we're spiritual people you know we can become very easily swayed by that kind of thing yeah well this is how cults start forming very quickly people sometimes even realize they're in a cult no until it's too late um i'm trying to think if there was an hbo documentary on the very famous cult that was out of la and i'm trying to think of what it's called now um and it was a very kind of a spiritual movement and people ended up and it was huge famous celebrities in there that were giving away their money and their lives and kind of just kind of transcending into this cult.

46:42And anyway, the guy who's run it now has gone to prison and he's got life imprisonment. But it was a huge movement. It was a big kind of series on HBO just about how quickly this all kind of transpired. And they call him a full-blown narcissist. And one of the guys who ended up taking him down, who I know is releasing a documentary all about the fears of narcissism in powerful places.

47:04Dr Gemma Newman:Oh, it's so interesting. I think we have to come back to teachers that center our own development and well-being above them being right. Yeah. um and i think it's important to trust that if somebody if there is no sense of accountability then that's that's a bit of a red flag isn't it and it i think i think that feminist ways of being spiritual are actually sometimes a bit different let me explain what i mean i think when you have teachers and gurus that talk about are the importance of non-attachment it can almost and if you're really making an effort to sort of not be attached to outcomes it can also lead you to not being attached to people people or responsibilities you know and by non-attachment do you mean more like a stoic way of thinking stoic ways of thinking yeah like i will love but i will not form an attachment to an outcome that non-attachment aim that the aim of a lot of spiritual um teachers to to be you know to have complete equanimity when it comes to um outcomes nothing being right nothing being wrong uh it just being um which it gives us a lot of comfort this idea that we can um be in a state of pure love that we do not expect of others in the way that we would if we were just forming relationships in terms of attachments like you will do this for me and I will do this for you and you will not leave me and my identity is around this relationship or this thing that's kind of an attached way of living and a lot of these spiritual philosophies are advising us to let go of all of that and to live in love and to live without judgment um which is which is helpful and is important but it's not necessarily how power structures work in the world yeah and if we are making huge efforts to live this way against our natural instincts sometimes then it can also lead us to make decisions that are actually not in the best interest of community family loving actions We abandon our responsibilities.

49:33Dr Gemma Newman:So yeah, I think matriarchal ways of embracing spirituality would emphasize loving connections and community and nature as well as ideas of non-attachment. because I think sometimes if you are so caught up in not feeling things because you're above all that it's not actually truth and reality as we live it in this world on this planet no that doesn't feel like we're living in 2026 at all no you can live this aesthetic lifestyle and go and live in a cave and be all spiritual but what if you've got a wife and kids at home that you've basically just left to fend for themselves. I mean, that's not great either.

50:25Dr Gemma Newman:No. And that's something. Oh, I mean, I don't want to offend anybody, but I do believe, I think, I think the modern day Buddha did that. I think it, you know, really, yeah, I think he had a family and then he just went off and found Nirvana under the Bodhi tree. I might, might need to check, fact check that. But, um, I do find it interesting that a lot of these esoteric practices, useful though they are uh if not integrated in terms of these ideas of shadow can lead to harm sometimes it's interesting isn't it um i probably should fact check this we need to do some fact checks don't we we need to do some fact checks but as i was talking about this today you know i was really trying to get to the intention of what this conversation is going to be about i was really trying to distill it in my brain of like what is going to be the takeaway for the listener what conversation are we opening up?

51:18What are we trying to create here in our narrative of discussion? And as I was kind of like talking through it in my mind and with my team, one of my team said, well, it's interesting because you can have people that have great influence and do great things in the world. But behind closed doors, they're a very different person. For instance, and this is where the fact check comes in because I didn't fact check this, Martin Luther King. Incredible what he did in this world incredible for what he stood for but apparently before he died he punched his girlfriend in the face right okay yeah how do we break that down like how it's a

51:59Dr Gemma Newman:do you see the concept that i'm trying to yes yes like how are we consistent in our behaviors in private and in public yeah i do believe that is shadow integration work it has to be we need to be aware of our impulses, of our emotions, of how events shape us and our behaviors in order to moderate those behaviors and bring them into sync. So I don't think we should abandon our darkest part. We have to integrate it. We have to accept and love it. And that is the crux of your message. Of course it is, Sarah, the whole idea of it. But it's hard to put into practice because these are the things that we try to escape from from the moment that we're born right it does say here martin lutherkin engaged in a verbal dispute with his girlfriend there is some saying that he did there is some saying that that is absolutely not true so i have to just just wanted to put that yeah well it's good to fact check some are saying it hasn't happened and some are saying such claims are widely considered to be rumors and allegations some of which are spread by the fbi in an effort to discredit him so I will just say we don't know the truth on that no but as in my but my point around that is not to do with him it's to do with the context of yes the persona versus the truth behind how their actions are at home yeah and you know we I think it's the it's the integration of our deepest desires that we if we can do that then we can be a lot more coherent as a person our public persona won't actually be too different i mean obviously we have to be discerning again with what we share you know i'm not going to come on a public podcast and talk about all the things that i have ever done that i feel oh i wish i hadn't done this or said that because i don't think that's a very healthy thing to do you know there are situations in which you can be vulnerable and there's situations in which we have to protect ourselves and our image of ourselves.

54:05Dr Gemma Newman:But it's important for us to do this work, especially in our closest relationships and with our friendships, in order for us to actually be consistent with our value set when we're out and about and in the world. And I think that is the most important thing. Yeah, I agree. I think values are spoken about and virtues are spoken about quite flippantly in relationships. And then you have culture settings within companies that have like different cultures and do you fit into that culture? But interesting when you kind of look at people of power, they're not as represented. Some are, amazingly. I think Obama did a really incredible job at doing that and creating his value set at home as well as when he was in office.

54:50But why do you think that's maybe not more shown? with certain people but we still respect them why do i think it's not shown why do i think that

54:59Dr Gemma Newman:people are able to get away with being different well because people don't always see people's private lives and it's easier to ignore these things and it's hard for us to see our own blind spots yeah um i think it's true that our personal relationships our parents and our children are probably our biggest mirrors to the way we need to do work yeah and um that's where we can start in our own lives so that we can also have a logical heart-centered gut-centered approach when we are seeing other people and how they go about their lives doing that work for ourselves and that's where i suppose non-judgment comes in because we have to we have to integrate our own blind spots, our own bits that we wish we could get rid of.

55:49Dr Gemma Newman:We all have them. Exactly. We all have that. And it's not always the same thing. But I think the things that probably trigger us the most are the things that we need to work on as well. So yes, it can feel quite complicated, but really what it comes down to is conscious discernment and integration. okay so we mentioned earlier at the very beginning you know billionaires and we we sweeped over that quite quickly but it made me think about bill gates again he's obviously been in the epstein files as well so it feels quite relevant to bring him up he has probably saved millions of lives through global health funding like he has funded a lot of different things and he's actually now stepped in to the who since trump has pulled all the funding.

56:39Bill Gates is now becoming the primary funder of the World Health Organization. But I say that with a but, because at the same time, people feel deeply uncomfortable about the influence of an unelected billionaire having so much influence over medicine. So I feel like there's like two truths, sir. At one point, he's kind of helping. But at the other time, And there's a huge amount of influence from one individual. So how do you kind of look at that landscape as a health professional?

57:11Dr Gemma Newman:I find it really challenging because I think that nobody should be that rich and nobody should be that powerful. Because I do believe it warps our sense of self and reality. And I'm glad that who is getting funded. And yes, it's wonderful when powerful people do good things. And that goodness can extend far beyond what we could imagine. And that's great. So I am all for that. But I do believe that accountability structures are vital in this world that we live in because we are human. We are fallible. And our decisions are not always based on the public interest. They're sometimes based on our own interests and the things that we think are important, which is sometimes different from what other people think are important.

58:00Dr Gemma Newman:So I think accountability in public office, in power structures is vital. And actually, now I think about it, that's actually a very matriarchal way of looking at the world. Having power that is kind of stretched out among more than one person, having accountability, having sort of structures that center more than one opinion, I think is vital. And that's important for all the organizations, I think, that provide medical assistance, guidelines and dietary guidelines. I mean, we've talked for ages. Oh, gosh, I haven't even got into dietary guidelines. But you need to have different voices, different expert voices and accountability.

58:54Dr Gemma Newman:Yeah. It's really important. it's hard because i do feel and maybe it's because i'm this is the field that i'm in that i see a lot more you know we just gasp at dietary guidelines some people might not even realize why we just gasp at dietary guidelines you know there's been a big controversy about the american food pyramid this year and it being flipped upside down and there's a lot of political interests and connections to the meat industry and so on and so forth um and it's caused a lot of controversy and I guess this is my worry with health but I guess this is with anything that has money in it is it for the best interests of the people or is it for the best interests of money and that's a debate that I think is forever going to be going on yeah and I think when people in power don't show any kind of humility or accountability then that shows the rest of the world that they can do what they want without consequence and I think that's very wrong um and that plays out in our own lives and on you know on the on the world stage um I don't really have any solutions for that uh sadly I wish that we lived in a different kind of material world than we currently do but I do believe the work starts at home yeah I believe that if we can be discerning with ourselves and with other people, be self-compassionate, integrate the things that we don't like about ourselves, that it will help us to show up in the world in a much more healthy way and bring people into our lives who have healthier patterns of being.

1:00:32Dr Gemma Newman:And that needs to be done on a global scale, but we have to start with ourselves. Yeah. We have to start with what's right here, right now, in our homes, in our lives, the people that we surround ourselves with and the things that we hold most important. Yeah I agree and I think the reason why that is so critical is because the moments where I was more swayed by influence and power dynamics and people I would listen to or follow it's because I didn't have that in myself. Yeah. So for me it was like oh these people must be trustworthy and so you naturally have that poor dynamic of wanting to follow because you want to be like that person.

1:01:10Dr Gemma Newman:Yeah. Right. As opposed to actually believing it within yourself. And I do think that's like a self-development kind of process you go through. But when I think you do become quite sure of yourself and that's kind of maybe the more work that you've done or the more research that you've kind of gone into your area and go, no, actually, I kind of do disagree with that. and I can hold my opinion and that can also be true is a really important stage to get to. I think the fear that I have is that a lot of this preys on vulnerable people who aren't aware that they're being influenced. Yeah, you're right.

1:01:43Dr Gemma Newman:It does. So I guess what can we do about that? What do we do? We have to put out voices that are a bit more measured, a bit more nuanced. we have to put different um sources of information out there for people to to be able to look at and hopefully evaluate for themselves but i think the important thing is to actually bring people again back to back to themselves we can lose ourselves in looking to other people um and i don't know whether that's always from this so-called golden shadow of things that we've repressed or we just don't trust ourselves or it's easier to to trust someone who seems confident but we have to come back to what's important to us and um what we feel when we're around somebody just as much as the discernment that we use our brains for when we understand why do we feel this way yeah um so you know when it comes to stuff like the epstein files it's a complete as i said to you earlier it's a complete map of psychology and power structures as they currently exist and I think that that needs to change and do you think it will I hope it will I remain hopeful um I mean the way the world's looking right now it's literally like chaos um unleashed yeah so I like to think that the arc of change is overall going to be positive and that good people will stand up and speak the truth.

1:03:19Dr Gemma Newman:And I hope that conversations like this will help people to do that too, actually. Yeah, me too. Good on us. Well, we try, don't we? We try. I'm so interested to see the comments on this, actually. Yeah. To see what resonates, to see, you know, because I haven't wanted to. I am a big believer in the Epstein files are such a big thing. I am a big believer in also giving people the benefit, the doubt in certain situations. And I also am going to spin the pendulum the other way. And I am also worried about people that get called out maybe rather that haven't been as kind of, you know, heavily disregarded in the same respect as these guys have been.

1:04:03You know, these have done very wrongdoings in everyone's eyes. but you know sometimes with health information if someone's maybe got something a bit wrong or they're a bit confused or whatever but the intent isn't bad I also fear that there's platforms that are literally just trying to take people down yeah and that also fit worries me yeah because it's kind of like you can normally I can try and normally see if there's a good intent behind certain people and sometimes I feel like others are just out to get people yeah and that I also

1:04:32Dr Gemma Newman:feel was unhealthy i agree with you it's that whole cancel culture isn't it um so i don't like to indulge in that because i feel like it brings out the worst parts of ourselves to do that same um and i think i can see why people do it um and why people feel like they're doing it for the right reasons so they have this whole kind of moral high horse about it you know i'm saving people i'm helping people and they and they are um but i do value i value discernment when it comes to um how you go about it agree um and i value kindness but i also as i say i think it's important to i think it shows more integrity to um you know reach out to somebody um message them directly yeah if you can um but again it's hard for us to know other people's intentions because we project our intentions onto them yes that's true so much projection happening so much projection we just project everything what am i doing who am i um but if you believe if you believe that in general people are good and in general they are wanting to do the right thing then it is consistent with that to reach out to them and say oh by the way did you know or i thought you'd be interested to see this rather than automatically assuming the worst and i think a lot of the time when you're doing this calling out you're automatically assuming the worst yeah and i think that's where it makes people feel uncomfortable um so yes yeah so to leave people with and maybe hope yes a little bit of hope a little bit of discernment i think bottom line when it comes to situations in your own life what you can do um to feel that you're on the right track with somebody um or with a situation at work or at home or online is to think to yourself you You know, who is surrounding this person?

1:06:40Dr Gemma Newman:Is there a gap between what they're actually saying to you and how they treat people without power? Trust your gut. It's information. Don't necessarily always immediately have to act on it. But at least trust that something is coming to you from that, a signal that you need to explore. And just be aware that success doesn't always equal integrity. You know, be aware of the halo effect. be aware of this tendency that we have to equate success with goodness or attractiveness with goodness because that's just not always the case so understanding those pitfalls is really helpful and awareness of ourselves integrating the bits of ourselves that we don't like that's that's the big piece that's the hard piece exactly yeah that's the hard piece yeah but it's important because it allows us to be consistent with our values whatever situation we're in we can be consistent with our values and feel good about it even when you know we um there's a part of us that kind of wants to put that on someone else yeah it's an easier job isn't it yeah exactly way easier job yeah way harder to take it in it is it's humility at the end of the day yeah so i I hope that this was helpful.

1:07:57This feels very different for a live well, be well conversation.

1:08:00Dr Gemma Newman:I know. It's a different thing for me to talk about, but I've really enjoyed it. Yeah, me too. I feel as though it's helpful to talk about. Yeah, I agree. And I also think it's helpful to talk about without trying to retake people down. Because there's another fear that I fear that, you know, sometimes you can go online and it feels that people just want to take people down. And I think it's important, as you said, to have. Oh, now I'm doing it. To have that more open view on situations and just awareness, because we can either bury our head and just ignore it, or we can become aware and we can talk about it.

1:08:37And ultimately, whatever you feel comfortable with is the right thing. And so if it feels uncomfortable unfollowing somebody or feeling like you don't connect to their view or their opinion, then actually that's where the truth should be held. Yeah. Yeah.

1:08:55Dr Gemma Newman:I'll come back to discernment because um sometimes as I say our instinct is oh I'm just going to get rid of that thing I don't agree with that and then we we lose we lose the ability to have a conversation yeah um but yeah ultimately I think trust in ourselves is is the is the ultimate is the ultimate aim yeah discernment not reaction yeah and again that's what we leave it with well that's my final question and I should have gone back and seen what you've said the last time you were on here but Gemma what does live well be well mean to you oh well in light of today's conversation right now in the world what does this mean oh not living in a war zone that would be a really helpful thing yeah you can't live well and be well if you're being attacked yeah uh yeah what does it mean to me I think it means it means self-compassion but also uh getting perspective on not just our own hubris but trying to remain humble um I think is very important yeah very humbling and yeah I think you know we all have we all want we all want to be right i think a lot of us you know we feel psychology exactly um but i think sometimes connecting with other people requires um requires a little bit more discernment about our instincts and um kindness it comes down to kindness again doesn't it 100 i mean you know that's my favorite thing it's your favorite thing there's a reason why it's your favorite thing you know being kind to yourself and other people allows you it allows you to be discerning it allows you to stand up in the face of oppression it allows you to um be more measured in how you approach a situation of conflict um and it allows you to know yourself a little bit better absolutely well i'm going to link if you're happy with that the sub-site article in the show notes sure so people can go and have a source after this to go and read everything that we spoke about I think it's a great article.

1:11:11Thank you for writing it.

1:11:12Dr Gemma Newman:Thank you. Very vulnerable. And yeah, I'm just really grateful that you have spoken out in a kind of compassionate way. Thank you, Sarah. I'm grateful for you. Oh, I am. I think you're great. Thank you. You're welcome.

1:11:38Thank you.