What Is It Like to Be a Sociopath? “I Don’t Feel Guilt, Jealousy or Remorse" | Patric Gagne

27:16And children who are struggling with these disorders, they simply learn emotional skills differently. So if you take a bunch of children who are pre-psychopathic, pre-secondary psychopathic, and you put them in a classroom with children who are neurotypical, they're going to struggle because they don't learn emotional responses the way that normal children do. The way they have to be taught is through positive reinforcement and reframing choices as a matter of self-preservation. So whereas you would teach a neurotypical child, you don't want to hurt, you don't want to pull Sarah's hair because it'll her feelings and she'll be sad.

27:56And that neurotypical child is going to say, yes, I don't want that. You have to teach a pre-psychopathic child. You don't want to pull Sarah's hair because she's going to be sad and then you're going to get in trouble again. And then your entire weekend is going to be ruined and your mom's not going to let you go to the skating rink. And that kid's going to go, yes, then I will not do it. You have to make it about them. And then that's how they eventually learn to make it about others. We have had so many guests on the show to discuss the importance of the vagus nerve and actually devices that can support your nervous system health.

28:26As someone with ADHD, I've learned that supporting your nervous system is foundational to your overall well-being. And vagus nerve stimulators like Pulsetto can genuinely be beneficial, similar to somatic bodywork. Now, over the past year, I've seen the biggest shift in my health personally hasn't come from adding more to my routine and overwhelming myself, but actually creating moments where my body feels safe enough to genuinely slow down, which I think we all need reminding of. So that's why I wanted to share what's genuinely been helping me, and that is this vagus nerve stimulator, Pulsetto.

29:03Now it's become a small ritual that I turn to when my mind feels really busy or during moments of meditation, because it helps connect me more to my body and feel grounded. It supports what I'm already building, rather than adding pressure. So what I do is I pop it on my neck, I turn it on and I use it for four to 10 minutes every single day and it connects to my vagus nerve, which puts me from the stress response into more rest and digest. And if you're someone that really likes touch and body work, this might be genuinely really helpful. So if you're serious about connecting more to your nervous system, Pulsetto can be genuinely transformative.

29:43If you're looking to support your wellness routine, I'd recommend giving it a try. And what's amazing is that you can discover Pulsetto using my code SarahAnne at checkout. There is also a 30-day money-back guarantee. So if you see that it works or it doesn't work, you can send it back. As always, I only share products that I genuinely have used and enjoyed and believe in, and I think could help you too. it's important that pulsetto is a wellness device designed to only support relaxation and well-being individual experiences may vary not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease so if sounds interesting give it a go and let me know what you think is there a connection then to narcissism because narcissism is making it about the kind of inflated sense of self?

30:37Because there's all these terms now, and now I'm just quite confused because I feel like they will blend into one.

30:45The terms psychopathy and sociopathy? Well, you know, you've got like, you've got psychopath, then you've got sociopath, and then this other term that is just all over social media at the moment, which is narcissism. And then you mentioned about making it about them. So when you did that reference to the child, where it's like, and if you don't, you will get in trouble and you will then have this taken away. It's kind of like taking it back to them. Is that then different to narcissism? Yes, because the main difference between psychopaths and narcissists is that narcissists feel shame. In fact, it's their whole problem.

31:19They feel such extreme amounts of shame, but they can't process that shame. So they use grandiosity and superiority tactics as coping mechanisms to help themselves not feel the shame. Whereas psychopaths, sociopaths, antisocial personality disorder, they don't feel the shame. They just have a hard time empathizing. They have a hard time understanding what other people are feeling. So if you try to teach a child to curb their behavior, because you're trying to connect that behavior to what other people are feeling, they're going to struggle with it. You have to first make it about what they need and how they need to feel safe and what they need to survive.

32:00And that's how they ultimately learn how to understand what other people are feeling. So how can you tell the difference between the first degree of psychopathy and the second degree of psychopathy? Because how do you differentiate if one's a true psychopath or a secondary psychopath? A primary psychopath is extremely rare. I think the last time I checked, it was 0.004 % of the population. And these are people who are going to make the same mistakes over and over again. They are going to be much more violent, much more extreme, and they can't really control their behavior. And so they typically get picked up by law enforcement.

32:40And if they're not, when they finally do get picked up by law enforcement, you're not going to find many people saying anything other than, yeah, there was something off about that guy or that girl. They have a harder time blending in emotionally. Whereas secondary psychopaths, they can connect to their behavior. They don't necessarily want to be doing it. They understand that it's not productive for them, productive for society. And ultimately, what they want to be is normal. What they want to be is understood. What they want to be is seen. and they represent most of the, you know, the individuals who fall under that psychopathic umbrella.

33:23The primary psychopath is when you start getting into the serial killer territory and the people that are usually incarcerated for life. And in many cases, those people, once they are incarcerated, will admit, you shouldn't let me out. I, because I can't, I will do it again. Right. Okay. So talk to me about like your journey to being diagnosed as a psychopath like how did that start like where did the curiosity because obviously you said as a child that you felt different but then where did the drive to actually get the diagnosis come from how did that happen I well I I was I understood as a child that something about me was different I understood that I didn't experience emotions the way that neurotypical kids did I had a sister so I understood what complex emotional development looked like and I understood that I wasn't experiencing it and again so I started to hide I I was pretty honest about that for a while I remember being very honest about I don't feel that way I don't feel shame I don't feel guilt and being reprimanded harshly for it and learning very quickly oh can't do that can't can't let let that I don't feel the same way that other kids do.

34:36So I learned to lie and manipulate, again, not because I was trying to hurt others, but because I was trying to protect myself. So if somebody said, don't you feel bad that that happened? I would say yes, even if I didn't. And it was very isolating. I have said before, there's a difference between loneliness and a loner. And even people like me are not immune to loneliness. And I felt very untethered. And because my behavior was such a problem for a long time, I was concerned that if I didn't get someone to help me understand why I felt the way I felt or didn't and why I was compelled to act out, that I wouldn't be able to stop and the behavior would only get worse, which it did.

35:23So I started - Talk to me about that. What was that behavior? Was that when you squeezed the cat and then you were worried about how much you were squeezing that cat and you might hurt it i was worried that i understand yes i was worried that i didn't that i had to make the intellectual decision to release that cat instead of the emotional decision i remember that so clearly just saying shouldn't i be feeling bad shouldn't i be where's the emotion here and it's and then back in the back of my head was a voice saying you don't have much more time you need to let that cat go this is going to be a problem you let that cat go, but there wasn't an emotional connection to it.

36:01So I did, and I didn't like that I did it. I didn't feel good about it. I wasn't trying to hurt the cat so much as I was trying to understand if I push myself really far, surely then these emotions that everyone else are explaining to me and experiencing, they'll kick in, right? And when they didn't, I didn't like that. It made me feel even more concerned. And that's a really important distinction because I can't speak for the children that harm animals, but as one that did, it was never about wanting to cause pain to that animal. It was about wanting to force an emotion, wanting to do something extreme so that I would feel something that I was supposed to be feeling.

36:45See, I think that's such an important distinction that I would have always just said, oh, I just think they want to hurt animals. But it's not. You want to feel something. So it's like how far can you push something to get a feeling, to get a kickback? Yes. And I don't, I don't know that I would have, no, I think actually I would have had the tools at the time, maybe not, certainly not as, as, as accurately as I can now, but I think if somebody had asked me, I would have said, and had given me the space to respond. Cause that's another thing that I, I get emails and messages from parents all the time and asking how, you know, they can, they can best help their children.

37:22And my number one response is always allow them to respond to your questions, especially when those answers are not something you want to hear. Because had someone given me the space to really be honest about the way that I was feeling and not feeling, I think we could have gotten somewhere real quick. And, and, you know, with regards to the cat, I think I probably could have explained, I didn't want to hurt the cat. I was trying to understand, I was trying to do something that would force a feeling. And again, I don't know that a lot of kids have an understanding of why they're doing things like that, but without the space to even answer the question, they're never able to even explore why they're acting out that way.

38:17Yeah. So talk to me about that. I remember reading that in the book, and that felt quite a big moment to read. What was then the route to the diagnosis that you got? Was it from a psychiatrist? It was from a psychologist who administered something called the PCL. The PCL is considered the gold standard for psychopathy testing. And that's another really big piece of misinformation that a lot of people struggle to understand is that people think that because psychopathy and sociopathy aren't in the DSM, that means they're not actual diagnoses. And the truth of the matter is there are lots of disorders that aren't listed in the DSM.

38:54The DSM is a diagnostic tool. So if you have a disorder that requires something more complex in order to diagnose, then you can't use the DSM. And in the case of psychopathy, you do. You need something called the PCLR to diagnose psychopathy. And when I was administered, I was given something called the PCLSV, because another thing that people don't understand about the PCLR is that it's designed to be administered in prisons. It's designed almost to reverse engineer diagnostics. So they say that most psychopaths are in prison. That's actually not true. It's that most of the PCLR testing is done within the prison system.

39:43So sure, you're going to get a lot more. Could you say around, I think it was in the book or I read somewhere, but I haven't figured out if this is a right stat. So I'm just quoting from you, 5 % of people are sociopaths? Just under. Just under 5%. And by the way, considering that most of the diagnostic testing for psychopathy takes place within the prison system, there's no way that number isn't grossly underreported. So when I was tested, I was given something called the PCL SV, which is the screening version. In order to sit for the SV, you have to have no history of a criminal record. Whereas the PCLR, you need to have proof of a criminal record.

40:21You have to have been arrested or have been in jail or flagged in the prison system or the criminal system at some point in your life, which I think is an insane marker for testing. But we'll leave that to the side. How did you get to this test? Because that's what I'm just the most interested in. It's that flip moment of like going in to see a psychologist. And I don't know, I just can't imagine someone handing me a test to be a sociopath. Like, how did you feel? Well, how did this happen? It wasn't that simple. It was a series of conversations with a series of people and me saying, I think something's wrong.

40:59I don't fit the qualifications for antisocial personality disorder because I've never been expelled and I've never been in juvie and I've never, I don't, I don't tend to have a lack of control over my behavior to that level, but something's obviously off. And because I was over the age of 15 and because I did not have any history of criminal, you know, any, any criminal record or history in juvenile detention or expulsions or suspensions or anything like that, because I didn't have those markers, I was eliminated from antisocial personality disorder, which left psychopathy. And my therapist was operating under her understanding that psychopathy was a spectrum disorder.

41:43And so there were people who scored very high on this test. There were people who scored very low on this test. And then there were people that scored on the mid high range. And that's where I fell. I fell technically, I fell on the side of the psychopathic diagnosis, but my score was on the low side. So that put me in the sociopathic category and not the primary psychopathic category because back then it was psychopath, sociopath, antisocial personality disorder. And now it's antisocial personality disorder, secondary and primary psychopathy. So how did you, I mean, it's quite interesting because we're talking about feelings and you're kind of saying, you know, it's like I don't actually feel that many things but how did you feel when you got that relief really yes which is I would say if you were diagnosed with psychopathy and you feel relief it's you're probably on the right track because most neurotypical people that would I would actually like to add that to the list of diagnostics like after you receive your score how do you feel like that's just a yeah because that's the gold standard right I would imagine because someone who is neurotypical is going to feel a lot of shame with a diagnosis like that.

42:57They're going to feel a lot of fear with a diagnosis like that. They're going to feel a lot of concern. And I didn't feel any of that. I felt so much relief that I wasn't alone. And there were at least enough people in the world like me to justify an entire personality disorder. And not just any personality disorder, but the first personality disorder ever identified. And that's another thing that people don't understand about psychopathy. It's the oldest one in the book. It's the first personality disorder ever identified. I didn't know that. Yes. And it's amazing to me that a personality type as old as this one has not received anywhere close to the resources or the research that all of the ones that came after have had the benefit of receiving.

43:49can you spot psychopaths sociopaths i'm finding it hard to differentiate now but um you know can you do you find it easier to see them now that you've understood it intellectually and you you've kind of defined yourself as that and you've written a whole memoir about it i mean you've done you've done a lot of research on this patrick um because a lot of people will say you know well you know i don't know how many it is and i'm not going to quit a random stat but a large majority of sociopaths are CEOs. And they have very strong traits. I just read a great research paper on it. It's called The Successful Psychopath.

44:24And it speaks directly to what I've been saying, which is the successful psychopath, the CEO psychopath, is a mild to moderate psychopath who does not suffer from the inability to course correct, who does not suffer from the inability to be self-aware. So these people have all the benefits of things like reduced amounts of shame and guilt. But most importantly, they have a low fear threshold and they aren't afraid of taking risks, which means they are not afraid of failure. That puts them in a different category than almost everybody else. And they have a tendency to succeed as a result of that.

45:04And because they're not carrying the baggage of those extreme psychopathic traits, which is the inability to feel, the inability to course correct, the inability to be self-aware, they can evolve and they can use those traits constructively, which is not like, whereas a primary psychopath can only use his traits destructively. Guys, it's taken me eight years, but I finally wrote a book and it's called Healthy Shouldn't Be This Hard. And actually it became a bestseller this May. Very exciting. Now, if you want more self-compassion in your life and you wanna know the reasons on why that is so important, I tell you all in this book, and I give you a lot of tools to help you get there.

45:47It's definitely been a lifesaver for me and I know many people that have read it, it has for them too. So if you want to check it out, head to my bio or the show notes below where you'll find the link to the book. So should we not be quite fearful around if people are kind of sociopaths that are working up above us and kind of held that power And if they're not kind of trying to work on it and understand it, like, I mean, you've got to a point, right, where you're trying to understand your urges and you're trying to stop yourself. And, you know, I guess you've got to a point where you're like, OK, I know this might hurt somebody, so I don't want to do it.

46:25But I can imagine there's a load of sociopaths out there that don't think like that. They just don't care. But I think that those are the ones that are probably not progressing as far up the corporate ladder. Someone who is successful has to have a modicum of social awareness and understanding that, you know, I always strive to be a productive member of society, not because I necessarily care about society, but because I understand that being a productive member of society is good for me. and it is good for my children and it is good for my family. And, you know, people always like to say, well, if it doesn't come from the heart, it doesn't count.

47:10And I'm here to say, that's not true. I'm making the exact same decisions that you are. I'm just making them from a different place. My feelings are not, they're muted, but they exist. So I think as long as someone who is sociopathic or psychopathic is exhibiting self-control and their behavior isn't harming others, I don't know that you should be any more fearful of them than someone with, say, borderline personality disorder or bipolar disorder or narcissistic personality disorder. You know, it's all about how you behave and how you act. I guess the big trait, though, that comes with sociopaths is the manipulation, right?

47:55I guess that's the thing that feels quite scary. For me, understanding is the manipulation. Because I think when you're manipulated, the other person doesn't quite know until they be manipulated. And so actually, then that can cause a lot of damage. Sure. But my counterpoint to that is you understand that people who have bipolar and borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder are manipulating and twisting the truth to the same extent, if not more, than sociopaths and psychopaths. But we're the only ones that are getting that, you know, universally evil banner stamped across our diagnosis.

48:33And I think that's the, you know, that's the issue that I struggle with. You know, when I watch the news, I watch Dateline and I see so many times people are committing crimes of passion. Every time I turn it on, it's crimes of passion. And I'm thinking, but we're the bad ones. every time I turn on the news, I'm seeing a lover killed another lover. A woman was jealous and killed her husband. A husband was jealous and killed his wife. And I'm thinking, well, I'm not doing that. We're not doing that. Sure. I think everyone to some extent is dangerous. And I think that taking a group of people and casting them as in the part of universal villain, well, it's not just dangerous, it's foolish.

49:21You're going to miss the bad guy standing right next to you because you're so busy deciding that it's these people that you need to be worried about. Well, one social emotion that really comes up where I think people get hurt in this is heartbreak. So have you ever been heartbreak? Is that something that you feel? Because to me, that is probably one of the most powerful, traumatic, but also transformative emotions that like one can feel, right? Do you, have you ever been heartbroken? It's a tough question because I can only answer it based on my interpretation of love. So my experience of love seems to me to be very different than that of a neurotypical person.

50:13So I believe that I have experienced heartbreak. Have I experienced it the same way that a neurotypical person does? I don't believe so. But it's sort of like asking someone how something tastes. You know, the way that I taste pizza might be different than the way you taste pizza. So I have, I have certainly experienced my, um, my share of what I understand to be heartbroken. Can you explain to me what that feels like to you? How, explain to me what you went through when you were heartbroken. Sadness.

50:54But when I have listened to my neurotypical friends describe heartbreak, it's usually, there's usually an element of

51:09something that I got from this person is gone. So when this person was around, they made me feel X, Y, and Z. And now that they're gone, I no longer feel X, Y, and Z. And I don't have that component. When I'm in a relationship with someone, it's very balanced. I don't have that jealousy experience. And I've always struggled to understand that because if you love someone and they're flirting with someone else, as long as it's not a betrayal, as long as it's not hurting the relationship, what does it matter? Or finding someone else attractive, I think would probably be a better analogy than flirting with someone.

52:02I've had friends say, well, my boyfriend thinks that Kim Kardashian is attractive, so he's not allowed to ever look at pictures of Kim Kardashian again. This is a really flippant example, but I just don't understand that. It's like, why? He's a human being. Who cares if he thinks Kim Kardashian is beautiful? It's because it takes away from them. It's because if you think Kim Kardashian is beautiful, then that somehow must mean you think I am less beautiful. It makes me feel less than. And it's that less than quality that I don't experience. So when I experience heartbreak, Like it's sadness, but it comes from a place of understanding.

52:34I know that this person can't be in my life anymore. I'm going to miss that I was able to talk to this person and engage with this person. And I felt this person understood me and I understood them, but it's not healthy. It's not a healthy dynamic and we can't be friends anymore, but I don't hate them. And I don't wish harm upon them. It's just a loss. So the way that I would look at heartbreak, so I wrote about this in one of my recent books, is, you know, for me, I've had like a really bad heartbreak in my life and it completely derailed me. So for instance, like I lost my appetite, you know, I got really sick, you know, I lost a ton of weight, I had brain fog, you know, like every day was a struggle to like get myself back.

53:22And it took like a, you know, a good year for me to get back up on the road again. I didn't stop. I still worked. I mean, I wrote a book. It's not like I kind of, but it was a struggle. Like it was pain. And that's what I want to know. Like, do you feel that pain? Or do you just wake up and go, I'm sad, but like, I can pretty much get on with my day. It's sad. Like, is that what it is? It's like a hum of sadness, but you're like, this isn't gonna, you know, drive much in my brain. So I'm just gonna get on with it and I'll check in on how I feel. but actually it's just not going to really derail me.

53:56It's that or it is I will experience upset for a solid week or two weeks, and then it's gone, completely gone. So it's either I'm sad, but I can get on with it, or it's I'm just going to take the time to really process this and go through this, and then it's over. There's no residual. Wow. I mean, that's kind of superpower. I think so. And again, I know it's not what people want to hear. They don't want to hear someone, you know. I mean, I wish I had that during that bloody hard year of my life, Patrick, I can tell you. Like, if I could just compartmentalize it and, you know, get it to the back of my brain, that would have been amazing.

54:47But, you know, I think, I mean, it's very dependent on the situation, I guess. I don't know. I think it is. And I also think that there's a lot to be said for going through something like that and everything, you know, and all the things you learn about yourself. So actually, I'm going to take that back. It might not be a superpower because all of the things that you undoubtedly learned about yourself and contributed to your growth, I'm not getting that. And maybe I would be a better person if I did. I'm just very practical. so if if I were to be betrayed or cheated on I would be very upset about it but the practicality would weigh out it would be like well I don't really know who I'm upset about because the person that I thought I knew clearly doesn't exist so I'm severing this that's easy it's it's not I I definitely I don't I I think a lot of what trips up neurotypical people is the feeling that they put on themselves.

55:47Why wasn't I enough? Why didn't they stay? Why don't they love me as much as I love them? Those themes tend to come up and those never enter into my periphery, not because I'm so great or because I think that I am worthy of unending love, but it's just, usually it's, this has something to do with me. If you have decided to betray this, it's not even a romantic relationship. If you've decided to betray this friendship or betray this romantic relationship, or if you have been pouring less into this than I have, there's an imbalance. It's over. It's not. And I don't, I don't take it personally, strangely.

56:26Okay. So I think that's such an interesting part to come to because people connect the most in the show to relationships, right? It's like a universal understanding. And I think we all crave. I mean, actually I say that, like, do you crave to be in a relationship or do you actually just feel you don't feel you need that connections and bonds. I don't want to speak for you and say that. No, it's, you know, it's a really, it's a, it's a really tricky question for me. And it's one that I have been struggling with a lot. And I think that it's, I, I do like being in a relationship. I do like being in a partnership, but it's tough because so much of neurotypical love I find is driven by, I'm going to really hear it for this one.

57:17I'm going to get it. I'm going to get it for this one, but it's driven by selfishness. It's driven by their need to be loved. And I really struggle with that because so much of what I do as a partner is driven by wanting to nourish my partner, wanting to give, and I don't need anything in return. But it's hard when I feel that everything in a neurotypical relationship often is transactional. And so that's a struggle for me. So that's the part where I say to myself, absolutely not, I don't crave connection at all. But I think it's not that I don't crave connection, It's I don't crave transaction.

57:58And I think that that's at play in a lot of neurotypical relationships. And most neurotypical people don't understand that. And it's tough. It's something that I'm trying to figure out because I want to write about it. And it's... I mean, you should write about it. I mean, I will disagree with you. I mean, I can't sit here because I'm not neurotypical. So I've got ADHD and dyslexia, you know, so I've definitely got, you know, an un-neurotypical brain but I definitely crave massive connection and you know you think about I look at it even in science right you get this huge oxytocin release which is like chemicals and that creates love and that lowers your blood pressure and that boosts your immune system you know the longest study ever at Harvard that looked at you know longevity which is now a buzzword shows that like the biggest predictor of health is healthy relationships I mean it's not being in a relationship because there's a lot of people that are in relationships and they're in very unhappy relationships they're in very toxic relationships and they're in very codependent relationships but I do think there is something about especially now we're more fragmented than ever to be able to know that you can go home and speak to someone and rely on someone and have that social cue and that community and that support just you're not carrying the whole world on your shoulders on your own you can also give that to someone else at the same time which obviously boosts your self-esteem and self-worth and all of those things.

59:26Because you could even say giving love is also transactional because it's also selfish because it boosts yourself, your sense of self. Yes. And it's very interesting because I definitely like being with my people. I definitely, I like coming home. I like having to be, I like being understood without having to make myself understood. But so much of what a neurotypical person needs is in conflict with what a neurodivergent person needs. And I find that that can be a struggle where, where I very rarely need someone to regulate my nervous system. And yet it seems that a lot of neurotypical people, that's all they need is they need someone to regulate their nervous system.

1:00:16And as someone who is pretty steady and is pretty regulated, I find that I'm often looking around and having to sort of unplug, like, no, no, you don't get to use my nervous system. You need to figure out how to regulate your own nervous system. But is that a part of love? I don't know. Certainly. Is that also just a therapist? No, because that's a different, yes, in therapy, but that's not an intimate relationship. That's a friendship that's not a a partnership that's a therapist so in those situations you know there's that there's the there's the concept of lending ego strength to your patients which is exactly that you're teaching them how to regulate by allowing them to sort of borrow some of your regulation borrow your some of ego strength but i don't want to do that at home i don't want to do that in my relationships in my friendships i don't want to just be someone's someone's battery all the time.

1:01:10And I think that that happens by default, because when you're around somebody who is pretty emotionally tranquil, your tendency is to start relying on them so that you can be emotionally tranquil. But that can also be very taxing. But maybe that's what love is. Maybe that's what a neurotypical loving relationship is supposed to be. It's something I'm trying to parse out. It's something I've been trying to parse out my entire life. So it's interesting. I mean, I just, I don't know. I think we're going to have to disagree. I mean, I'm not neurotypical, but I feel like love is just on the spectrum of so many different ways.

1:01:49I think everyone connects to love more so from more their childhood experiences. Yes, I would agree. Than anything else, rather than neurotypical and un-neurotypical. I think it's more about like, how did you grow up and how are you as an individual? Because you can get amazing supportive love, you know, where you're just boosting one another the whole time or you're inspiring one another and you're like proper like co-pilots together. But you're also very independent. You know, there's a lot of those relationships. There's also a lot that are very toxic and that can put each other down and that can lie and manipulate and cheat on people.

1:02:24And I guess it's interesting when you say like, you know, you have a sociopath and manipulative, but do you find that can come into your relationship? You have that manipulative way about you? Cheating, all of that stuff, lying? No. So why does it draw the line there? Because when I was engaging in manipulation tactics and deceit, I was doing it because I was motivated by a need to self-protect. I can't let you understand that I don't feel these feelings, so I'm going to lie about them and I'm going to charm you and use manipulation tactics to to divert attention away from what I'm not feeling.

1:03:01But in all of my relationships, I am very upfront about what I feel and what I don't feel. So I don't need to lie or manipulate. And if I feel the instinct to do it, then something's wrong. Then I don't feel safe in this dynamic. And, and, and then we discuss it. So I make it, I actually make it a point not to lie. And again, here's where things are a little bit different. I don't want to lie to the people in my life because I understand that the impulse to lie means something's wrong with me. That's first and foremost. And that is what trips the secondary feeling, which is, and also I don't want to lie to my friends and family members.

1:03:45I don't want that to be a part of our relationship. It's not, oh gosh, I shouldn't lie because I'm feel guilty about it it's if i'm feeling like i have to conceal this right now it's because there's something about this dynamic that's making me feel like i can't be honest and that's not something that i want to participate in so i'm going to deal with that first and then i'm going to deal with the person in front of me because i also don't want to lie to them and i don't want to infuse this relationship with negative patterns So intellectual. But again, it's no, it's so like this and that. I mean, I can see it.

1:04:17I kind of can understand it. There's no feelings that kind of murk the water because feelings can confuse someone, right? I think that's what I connect to is feelings can overtake the logical response. But then people will say you can't logic your way out of emotions, but you kind of can. Well, and there are times though I'm trying to think because I was really thinking like there certainly have to be times where I've experienced heartache. you know, heartbreak in a way that I can explain it that's relatable. And I think recently I was in a situation with a friend where I got very upset and more upset than I, that I normally ever get.

1:04:51I mean, I was very upset and I thought about it and it, and I was able to parse out what made me upset. And nine times out of 10, this is what I experienced with my patients in therapy is that I wasn't upset about the other person, or actually I was, but it was secondary. What I was really upset was at my own actions. This dynamic, an unhealthy dynamic had presented itself, and I continued to throw good money after bad long after I should have understood that this dynamic is not healthy, you need to address it. I didn't want to address it. Instead, I just kept pouring into it, which I should not have done, and I was so furious at myself.

1:05:31And then, so once I dealt with that, then all of that emotion went away, and I was able to deal with the other person with hardly any emotion, because it wasn't about them. It was about, I was angry that I didn't recognize this and that I continued to act in a way that was inauthentic to myself. And I should have known better. I was pissed. I was pissed at myself. But again, the self comes first and there's nothing I can do about it. I don't, I don't, I can see how putting yourself first can be extremely detrimental, but I'm not intending to do that. That's simply what happens is I address what's going on with me first so that I can address what's going on with the people in my life.

1:06:20I don't mean for them to come second. It's sort of like when the pilot says, put the air mask on yourself first. That's what I was just thinking. Yeah, it's very much, I have to get myself straight and I have to understand what's going on. I hate ambiguity. I really need to understand. And then I can pretty much hash anything out unemotionally. But if I am robbed of that ability to understand first, I think that's a situation where I can see emotions coming up or anger coming up or me acting out in a way that's maybe inauthentic. to who I am if I'm not given that space to understand what's going on.

1:07:02And I'm just basing it on reactive reactions. But that's never good for anybody. No, that's not good at all. I mean, I guess the thing that is on probably everyone's minds is, had you already been diagnosed as a sociopath when you met? Because I know that you've dedicated the book to your partner, David. Did he know or did it come out when you were in a relationship? How did he take that? Because I'm trying to think about going to date with someone saying, so Sarah, I'm a sociopath. I don't know how I take it. I've got to be honest. I think if you had, remember, I met David when I was 14 years old.

1:07:39So. But then you met later, no? Didn't you redate later on? Oh, yes. But he, but he had had experiences with me dating back to essentially what was childhood. So he had seen things that weren't making sense for him. So when I finally got that diagnosis and it was explained to him by my therapist in a way that not using the sensational language, not using the sociopathic buzzwords, he was able to understand it in much the same way I was. I was like, okay, now I understand because he could not understand why I was acting the way that I was acting, why I was compelled to do these things. He also couldn't understand why we approached love differently.

1:08:26He is very jealous, I'm not. There are so many times where he would take that personally. Well, why don't you care? And it's like, it's not that I don't care. It's that if you're going to portray this relationship, there's nothing I can do to stop you. That's a choice you're gonna make. I don't see the point in getting wrapped up in who you do or don't find attractive. Whereas he was always, that was tough for him to not understand, how are you not jealous? That must mean you don't care about me. And I remember thinking, no, that's not it at all. But again, he had experienced so much of this that when we finally had a diagnosis and someone was able to explain it to him in ways that were more forensic and less philosophical, that really spoke to his mind, because he's very, very smart and very technical, and he likes science, and he likes definitions, and he likes clarity on that scale.

1:09:24So yeah, I'm sure if I had started dating someone, and then three months into our relationship, I was like, hey, guess what? I'm sociopathic. Yeah, I think that would be a jump scare, rightfully so. But David, having been on the ride for so long, off and on, but nevertheless on the ride, it wasn't that big of a shock to him. So, but that's, but this is something that I'm learning, right? You're teaching me stuff right now that you wouldn't manipulate and you wouldn't lie and you wouldn't cheat. Because that to me is, you know, how we start this conversation. That is kind of the blurb on this back of this book, you know, you're the master of disguise.

1:10:05You've never been caught. You're very, like, really sorry. Yeah. You're telling me that in a relationship you don't act like that. I've definitely been in a relationship with people that have done all of that. Yeah. Ten times over and not had much remorse about it. And so I guess that's, you know, what I think people are going to be connected to. Because I think, you know, there's so much when people end up in relationships on how they treat the other person. And you're telling me you don't have those feelings, but then also you would never treat David that way. So I'm trying to distinguish the difference.

1:10:41I am someone who is naturally gifted at deceit. We've all met that kid. There's just some kids that really know how to lie very well. My sister could not tell a lie to this day if he held a gun to her head. I've watched her try, even in a dinner reservation, she'll she's like do you have reservations yes no no we don't we don't have it and it's like oh my god commit to something we don't have reservations but i wanted to make them so badly i like it she'll spin out and then yesterday i was i just felt really guilty and it's like oh my god just say you have a reservation or don't say you have a reservation but like just stick to it one way or another whereas ever since i was a kid when my sister speaks of lying she speaks of her heart racing and her cheeks getting red and she completely shorts out.

1:11:32And she's been that way since she was a kid. I've never experienced that. So I have this skill set. I have this ability to do this, but that doesn't mean I do it. And I think that is the thing. So when I say these things, I'm a liar, I'm a thief. Yes, I am those things. I could walk into the supermarket right now and steal something and not feel any remorse or guilt about it, but I don't. And it's really important that people be given license to say, yes, I am naturally manipulative. I am naturally deceitful. There are simply some people who are better at it than others. Go to any elementary school, walk into any kindergarten class, and you will see them.

1:12:12You will be able to see the kids who are like the artful Dodgers. And I remember I really identified with him when I was a kid because the artful Dodger was who he was by virtue of the fact that he was raised the way he was raised. But I think that he had a really good heart and I always felt that way. Yes, I can do these things and it doesn't affect me biologically. I don't start to, my face doesn't get red. I don't start to shake. I don't start to sweat. And I'm being honest about that. Yes, I have this ability. That doesn't mean that I'm compelled to do it all the time. And I think that that's true of people who even aren't sociopathic or aren't psychopathic.

1:12:55There are people that are just better liars. Does that mean that they're going to automatically lie? No. In much the same way, I hearken back to that quote from Penn Jillette, like, what's to stop you from lying and manipulating all you want? Literally nothing. I do lie and manipulate all I want. It's just that that amount is zero. I don't have a reason to lie. I don't have the urge to lie. I don't want to lie to my friends and partners about how I'm feeling because that's just going to, that's not going to serve me and that's definitely not going to serve them. I could, but I don't have the desire.

1:13:27And it's the desire that I think is often lost in the discussion that just because someone can means that they are. And that's simply not the case. But do you not think some sociopaths just do? 100%. I feel like I've met many people that don't talk the way that you do and they do it. Yes. You know, I think this is the problem. This is why, you know, people are so terrified, me included, of people that have sociothepied because you've been at the back end. I've been at the back end of some of it. And it's not nice. No, it's not. It really isn't. And I speak and communicate the way I do because I've been afforded every possible fucking advantage in life.

1:14:11And I am very clear on that. Most people like me have not. Most people who suffer from secondary psychopathy suffer as a result of trauma, unprocessed trauma. These are children for whom resources are not widely available. These are children whose parents are not sensitive to their needs and they are forced to basically fend for themselves their entire lives. So no, once they reach adulthood, they don't particularly care about doing the right thing. They're caring about surviving, especially when everywhere you look, Sociopathy is equated with evil and monsters. And there's absolutely no benefit to coming forward.

1:14:50I wrote my memoir because I knew that and I wanted other people like me to feel seen. So if someone's listening to this and they think either their partner is a sociopath, they're a sociopath, maybe they're connecting to things you're saying right now, connecting to like the conversation that we're having, their boss, their parent, And I mean, there's a multitude of people that are going to be around us that are going to have this trait. What advice would you give? Like, how would you get the conversation started? Because I think there's a lot of fear around the word. Well, I think it really depends on who you're talking about.

1:15:27I mean, if you're talking about a partner or a child. Yeah, let's start there. Let's start with a partner. So as always, I want to be very clear that my goal in all of this is never to minimize sociopathy, but to understand it more completely. Again, sociopaths are known for being singularly evil, and I get it. The people who sit on the extreme side of that spectrum have earned us that reputation. But the research says that those extremes make up a very, very small part of the sociopathic population. So if you suspect that your partner is someone who might be suffering from psychopathy or sociopathy i would lead with that listen if you're struggling i'm noticing these traits and i'm also noticing that these traits fall within this sociopathic and psychopathic spectrum but understand that doesn't mean you're a bad person i don't think that these are extreme i don't think that you're out at night intentionally causing harm but maybe we should take a look at it because treatment is possible if you are a mild to moderate secondary psychopath there is hope and i think leading with hope and leading with space is essential allowing people to tell you that they don't care the way that you do without you immediately getting upset and activated and and making it about comparing everything to the neurotypical example because i see that a lot with parents especially they constantly want their their neurodivergent child to be measured against a neurotypical experience and you're just setting that child up for failure.

1:17:05Instead, a question that I love to ask neurodivergent kids is, what does it feel like when you feel? Tell me, I'm so interested. And if you will allow them the space to answer without pulling any faces or reacting, they'll tell you the truth because they want to be seen. Everyone wants to be seen. It's why I so often will recommend Netflix's Wednesday Addams series to parents who think they might be struggling with an antisocial kid. Because make no mistake, the recent iteration of Wednesday Addams, that child represents a more complete composite of the sociopathic personality. And that this is a child who is criminally versatile.

1:17:45She's manipulative. She's cunning. She lies. She can do all of these things. But she's also able to form relationships, real relationships. She's loyal. She cares. And I will often, even though it's a fictitious character, this is what a sociopathic child actually looks like. Yes, she is capable, naturally gifted in all of these sociopathic things, but she often uses those things for good. And she is capable of forming bonds. They just have to be formed in a different way than a neurotypical child forms bonds. In fact, the Wednesday Addams composite up against her roommate, I don't know if you've seen the series, but her roommate is a classic teenager who has all the feelings and all the colors.

1:18:30And there's that stark difference between her room, which is pink and rainbows and Wednesdays, which is dark and gray, but they become friends. And that has been my experience in life. Whereas I am very much the dark and gray version, not because I'm bad, not because I'm hateful, not because I don't like you, but that's just where I'm more comfortable. I'm just more comfortable in the muted tones. And as long as I am around someone who respects that I'm more comfortable in muted tones and isn't constantly trying to drag me into their world of rainbows and getting angry at me for not being able to experience the world of rainbows, we get along fine.

1:19:05Just acceptance is the number one thing. So talk to me about the treatment because you did, I think I read exposure therapy and CBT, is that right? Like what is the treatment for, you're like, well, how long have you got? What is the treatment? Actually quite straightforward because research has shown that people who suffer from mild to moderate types of psychopathy also struggle from anxiety, which is not the case for primary psychopaths. Primary psychopaths do not experience anxiety. Secondary psychopaths do. and it is this anxiety that drives a lot of the behavior because a secondary psychopath understands they're different understands these compulsions are wrong understands that they don't have control over their emotions and they feel that they don't have the ability to course correct even though they do so in in therapy what what a lot of the research shows is that re-socialization is key.

1:20:08And by that, I mean reintroducing

1:20:15social propriety, social norms to people who suffer from secondary psychopathy in a way that they can understand. Vis-a-vis not, well, you want to be nice to your neighbor because you don't want to hurt his feelings, right? And more like, you want to be nice to your neighbor because you want to be a productive member of society because that serves you, correct? Correct. So what we're going to do is we're going to be nice to your neighbor because that's the best thing that you can do to keep yourself on solid ground. You get them to understand how to inform their behavior based on a global success.

1:20:45Right. And then you work backwards and you think, okay, so now that we've kind of re-socialized, how do you feel about other people like you? And you'll find they'll say, yeah, well, I just, I can't imagine what it would be like to be somebody who doesn't have resources to therapy or whatever you get them talking about others like them and then that's like a bridge to empathy that eventually they can then extend to people who are not like them it's just like children you first start with what they know and then you branch off from there and then it's just monitoring the anxiety and and and using cbt as a way to to deal with the behavior what is it that you get anxiety about i don't get it anymore but that's what i noticed when i was a kid but actually that's not true.

1:21:29I've come to realize that's very much not true. I realized that I get, I'll tell you about that in just a second. When I was a kid, I was always feeling anxious and that anxiety was tied to claustrophobia, this emotional claustrophobia where it's like, I don't feel the things that you feel. It doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't matter how hard I try. I don't feel them. And as long as you're going to keep me in this tiny box where I have to feel them, I'm going to explode. And that's what would happen. So I didn't have the tools to understand that or communicate that back then. But looking back, and certainly as I was kind of moving through the research and moving through my own diagnosis, I started to put the pieces together.

1:22:06And it was, oh, this is what that is. And then as I started doing research, I started finding out that that was sort of something that a lot of researchers were discovering, that people who were suffering from secondary psychopathy also had high levels of anxiety. And the anxiety was tied to that inability to feel. and this feeling that they had to conform because there were no resources and there was no safe place in which to process their lack of emotion. And giving people a safe place to process that lack of emotion is the first step in neutralizing the anxiety and neutralizing the behavior that is often driven by that anxiety.

1:22:44Wow. Okay. So you don't have strong anxiety anymore because you understand that you have a place where you can actually process all of this yes but i have noticed i that when i travel i've noticed it it's like oh here here you are here it comes yes because hello little friend yes because i'm out of my safe zone so so i'm i'm very boundary and i'm very much in my safe zone and i have my people and i can speak very clearly to what's going on and i found that when i am removed from that it's not as easy as it is as it has been and that's been a little jarring it's it comes back to hey you're all alone in this hotel room like you can do whatever you want it's like yes i know i can but we're not going to yeah but you can but i don't want to like it's this it's this dialogue where wow yeah i've i've i've i've been surprised by that it's like that is interesting yeah like why are you back?

1:23:45You know, and it's, it's always playful. It doesn't feel well, sometimes it's not, sometimes it can feel pretty intense, but usually it's, what do you want to do? It's like, I don't want to do anything. I want to stay here. I want to order, I want to order something and sit in bed. No, let's do something. You know, it's, it's because that feeling of I can, I have this skill set and I don't know, last time I looked, there was nobody looking over your shoulder. So why don't we do something you know so it's it's I've totally that's very you should write about that next yes that's an interesting thing to understand so you I mean I I do love this book I honestly think that I mean also I listened half on this and half on um audio for obvious reasons I loved hearing kind of like your voice and when you wrote about it how did your friends and partner respond to this um this is not news to them there was nobody in my life that was really no one was like wow this is shocking me or frightening me or no curious and if listen maybe there is but they didn't communicate it to me and I and I and they can I mean everybody knows that they but again so much of the process of this, of coming to my diagnosis, of understanding it beyond myself, has been, so much of it has taken place over the course of so many conversations with my friends.

1:25:12You know, people knew what I was writing my dissertation on. People understood what I was researching in my doctorate program. People understood the, you know, the individuals for for whom I was curating my practice. It was never a situation where once I stopped hiding, once I stopped feeling like I had to hide who I was and how I experienced emotion, once I stopped feeling like I had to conform to a set of emotional standards that simply were not inherent for me, you know everything just became really open and and again I I I have chosen the the people that are in my life are in my life because they're okay with it and they understand I can't I I could be wrong but if you asked any of my friends do you think she'd lie to you I don't think they would say oh yeah I think they would say no because it well i think this is the difference so what i've learned from today is that although you identify as a sociopathy or sociopathy or psychopathy i was diagnosed with sociopathy but today that diagnosis has advanced to be known as psychopathy too in much the same way that it used to be called uh borderline or um uh multiple personality disorder and now it's so many uh mental retardation that that word has been misappropriated yes that was oh my god that was the clinical diagnosis and they've had to change that one because you can't even use that no but but at one time that was the clinical term yes but you know what i the what i was about to say is the difference that i feel with you patrick and maybe you've just charmed me and maybe that's why i'm saying this i really have the difference i feel well listen i mean the difference that i feel and that's why i want to say it because i think there will be people saying stuff in the comments if I say this, is you're honest.

1:27:22You're also saying I'm not manipulative actually with people that I feel meaning with, you know, the people that I care about. I'm not going to lie to them. Yet I think when you just say this word and this definition, immediately you think this person is going to do me over, they're going to manipulate me, they're going to lie to me, they're going to hurt me, they're going to harm me, right? So it's a completely different type of connotation and understanding. Sitting here with you today, you're like, I don't want to do any of that. I am not that person. I was diagnosed with that when I was growing up.

1:27:50And when I acted out as a child, I was very different. But actually in a relationship with someone that I love and with my family and my friends, I'm not going to be that person. And I, you know, if someone's being honest with me across, to be fair, even if someone was honest with me across the table, they were going to manipulate me. I'd feel more safer with someone being totally honest with me than actually doing it without telling me. There's a weirdness to honesty and transparency that I think goes so far with trust in people. And I think the fact that you're sitting here saying, I am a sociopath, but I also don't manipulate and lie to people that I love.

1:28:27There's a difference. There's a massive difference. There's a difference of people just walking around and manipulating people unknowingly and just constantly doing it and hurting people. That is, again, a totally different type of conversation. I think that's what has really changed my mind on this conversation. Yes. And that's something so important. And just because somebody is lying and manipulating people doesn't automatically make that person a sociopath. That's the key here. It's that just like there are so many people who lie and manipulate because they're anxious. They lie and manipulate because they're depressed.

1:29:02They lie and they manipulate because they're having a manic episode. So lying and manipulation is not exclusive to sociopathy and psychopathy. It's just because the word has become synonymous with those terms that people automatically assume that anybody who is diagnosed with this disorder is a liar and a manipulator. And while we certainly have that skill set, we also have free will. So just because there's somebody, you know, everybody says, oh, I dated a sociopath. You probably didn't because it wouldn't be the lying and the manipulating that would tip you off to the fact that they are sociopathic so much as it would be the flat affect.

1:29:48And somebody that I wish I knew their name because I was having a conversation about wanting to rename psychopathy to something that was less stigmatizing. And one of the therapists in the audience suggested low affect disorder, which I think is such a perfect choice because you're taking something that is a very dominant trait of the psychopathic personality and you're making that a part of the diagnostics. So it's low affect. So I'm not experiencing love the same way that you are. It doesn't mean that my love doesn't count. It just means that it's different. I'm not experiencing the world the same way that you are.

1:30:26I don't experience shame or guilt, not meaning that I'm going to go out and betray you and cheat on you and do a bunch of things it just means that i don't experience that i make my decisions intellectually and i think if more people understood that facet of the psychopathic personality and instead of constantly leading with the serial killer murderer liar manipulative examples and it's by the way and and i understand that they have really cornered the market on that story but the truth of the matter is the psychopathic personality is so much more interesting in its nuance and and the the one-dimensional psychopath is tired yes we've all seen the american psycho and and and all of these different iterations of the psychopath but again the one that was the most interesting to me is wednesday adams and most people aren't referring to her as a psychopath but if you go off the diagnostics that's exactly what she is she's a well she's a child so i can't technically call her that but she's she's right there like she's She's right there.

1:31:28Yeah, we've all dressed to her as Halloween. And we idolized her. Little girls love her. Yeah, yeah. And why? Because she doesn't care. Because she's free. Because she says what she wants. She does what she wants. And she is not burdened by all of these things that keep the other kids in societal check. And so, so many kids look up to her and they like to, like, they like to, I wrote about this for Vogue, actually, about how much I loved seeing these kids come to my door on Halloween dressed as Wednesday because they weren't just dressed like her, they were acting like her. They were giving me like icy stares and copying this attitude.

1:32:08Give me more candy now. And they loved it. They loved embracing that, yeah, I'm at your door and I don't have to say thank you, I don't have to say please because I'm being this character that gives me license to do whatever I want. And were they robbing me and holding me at gunpoint? No, they were just, they were just not caring and i thought that was very liberating to see these these girls and boys dressing like her and sort of trying on what it feels like to not be constantly under the burden of say please and thank you make eye contact be polite be polite be polite be polite it's like how about one night i'm just i'm not polite or impolite i'm just indifferent how about that and i thought that was really fun to watch i am gonna have to go home now and watch this after you've said it.

1:32:54Okay, I have to finish there. It is, I mean, what an amazing journey you've just taken us on. I'm so glad. Thank you for being open. No. Thank you for being open and just kind of like being honest. I think one of the biggest lessons I'm learning in life is just how important transparency and honesty is in any regard. It doesn't matter who you are, but Christ, does it not open doors to just actually connect way more and create so much more transparency and trust for somebody than if you're not honest. Yes. And it's also so much more work. It's so much more accepting. So much more work. Oh my gosh.

1:33:32So much more work. Yes. So much more work. If you just meet someone where they are, you never have to worry about where they are. You know where they are. And it's - 100%. Yeah. It's freeing. So I always leave with one question. I'd absolutely love to know what you answer this, which is, Patrick, what does live well, be well mean to you? Honest. Honesty. It really, it's counterintuitive. But yeah, again, as somebody who spent so much of my life feeling as though I had to be dishonest for self-protective reasons, live well, be well is all about the freedom to say, I don't care about this story.

1:34:13I don't care about this person. I do care about this story. I do care about this person. Not having to fake it. that's yeah that's living well and being well just i mean authenticity right you cannot put a price tag on that and that's something that i really forceful in teaching with my kids it's don't worry about whether people are going to be mad at your answer worry about whether the answer is honest because as soon as you start curating your answer to make other people happy you're screwed. You're going to be screwed for a long time and it's going to take you a while to unlearn that behavior.

1:34:52So let me do you a favor and teach that to you now. Just tell the truth. I think that's the biggest superpower we can teach anyone in this generation, of any generation, because right now authenticity is quite rare. Yeah. And it's also, it goes hand in hand with confidence though, you know, having, teaching and accept more, not confidence, acceptance. If you can accept yourself, then telling the truth isn't hard. It's all about that acceptance first. And well, no, this is how I respond to feelings. And no, it might not look like yours. Or this is how I respond to gender. It might not look like yours.

1:35:28This is how I dress. It might not look like yours. And that's okay. And I think that acceptance and honesty are critical for anything. So on that note, I have a film recommendation for you to go and watch. I watched it last night. it was the premiere it's Gillian Anderson she has just done The Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Maya Summer I can't say that word M-I-A-S-M-A anyway it's all about it's kind of a lesbian horror film but it's basically about you know a journalist who's so intellectual not a journalist a film director she's so intellectual she's a very famous comedian I can't think of her name Hannah Haminer so intellectual yes and she struggles with sex because she's trying to intellectualize it and she can't feel it so relevant to this conversation it's like basically geared me up for this and anyway Gillian Anderson takes her on this journey to say you know okay you might be turned on by slasher films which is basically what it is she loves slasher films and she loves feeling that she's about to get killed by a slash and she basically I don't want to kind of tell you what happens but it kind of like starts recreating it.

1:36:42And by the end, you know, the film takes you on kind of an orgasmic experience. It's kind of, they describe it. Gillian was there last night doing the Q &A and she was kind of like, the way that we've tried to create the film is that it experiences it as an orgasmic, it's like a build up, it's a tension. But basically what we're trying to say is it doesn't matter what fantasy or what it is that gets you there. It's all about acceptance. And Gillian Anderson is the person taking her on that road to acceptance. And now I just feel like I've had a 360 moment because this is in the entire of this conversation but there's this big Q &A about it last night everyone was like what did you think about it and it was like do you know what whatever it is whether it's like so dark and what turns you on in sex there's a place of acceptance for it if it's safe if it's in your mind it's safe I agree right yes and so it's a very it there's There's been a lot of big talking points around humanity at the end of this film.

1:37:40So I definitely recommend going and seeing it. Oh, I can't wait. I think it's creating a lot of conversation online right now. And I love all those actors. I love them both. They're so incredible. It's great. It's great. So, yeah, definitely I'd love to know what your thoughts are after that. Yeah. If you go and see it. I think it's out in like two days or something. I will. But, yeah, I'm not one for horror, but I did it for Gillian, and she was amazing in it. It's her first horror. So yeah, it was really, really good. But it's creating a lot of like talking points. She's amazing. She looks amazing.

1:38:11I'm saying she doesn't age, which I know is not supposed to be, but it really is remarkable. Like she's so beautiful and always, it never changes. And I don't understand how that's possible. She's doing something right. She is. Yeah, they're both great. Maybe she's being honest. Maybe she's being honest. Probably. Okay, well, Patrick, thank you so much for coming on to Live Bar Be Well. It's been amazing. I had the best time. And I highly recommend everyone reading your book. So thank you. Thank you.