400 Acquisitions and a Failed Process: What Happens When You Don't Integrate

24:57Then you suddenly come in and say, okay, sorry, by the way, we're going to fully integrate you in the next 12 months because we have to clean the business up you're just creating this disconnect with that culture that you build on the front end data the big things data you referenced a deal that had like hundreds of excel sheets for their monthly financial reporting i actually heard about a situation where that was one of the things the buyer asked for updated financials and i don't remember the exact it took them like seven ten days to turn around and they walked away they were like this is obviously not integrated yeah there's the easy red flag You can't roll for sort of the basic analyses that you should be using to run the business anyway.

25:35That's a huge red flag for folks is particularly at scale. We're talking about a billion-dollar revenue business. That is a massive organization, and there should be very tight accounting, reporting, management data, KPIs around that business that you're using day-to-day to operate. Those are tough deals to see in the market, knowing that there are high-quality people there. the underlying business was strong, but the lack of integration did not make it feel like a real platform operation. Let's talk about building the machine, the Matt James way to M &A. Let's see. Day one, it was just us and a checkbook for the first year.

26:09Over time, we've built a couple of things into our deal process. To us, it had been a huge advantage really around the people side. Insurance brokers, 90 % of your assets are the people and those customer relationships they bring to the table. The one thing we added, and this is interesting, it came from a conversation we had with one of our operations folks at an acquisition we did during our first year. He came to us after the process. This was a proprietary process. They didn't have a banker involved. And he came and said, you guys could do that a lot better. There was a lot of friction on the closing.

26:43It was a relatively large deal for us. And we took that as him raising his hand to improve the process. So today, he sits in his seat as our VP of new partner operations, and he really quarterbacks everything from that free deal LOI diligence process to 90 days post-closing integration work streams. Unfortunately for him, one of his primary job is managing me out of the process as quickly as possible so that our functional area leads and our internal experts can really start taking ownership of integration even before closing. He follows along, sits alongside me for pre-closing diligence work stream, is on all the calls, has weekly calls on checking in on questions.

27:24And really, it's that seller education piece, which is particularly important around our proprietary deals since they do not have an intermediary walking them through the process. Because remember, these folks are going through a once-in-a-lifetime sell of their business, and they're also trying to run the business simultaneously. So he's really that quarterback and almost a seller advocate as we get up to the closing table. He can then translate that, all of those, the data, the work streams, all of that sort of tribal knowledge that you build as you work through the diligence process through the broader integration group when it's time for them to step in.

27:57So that for us has been huge. What I'll say is about two years ago, we also moved away from the historical Excel tracker sheet to the deal room as our kind of source of truth on the hard data piece. And we think of our VP of new partner ops as our source of truth on all of the qualitative factors and people factors, those nuances come along with wiring a people heavy business like an insurance broker. The combination of those two with our new partner operations team and managing that process has been absolutely huge and just getting new deals onboarded faster and not just onboarded faster, but making them feel good about the decision they made to partner with us versus one of the other 50 plus acquirers out there.

28:42Matt James:join Kisan Patel and Gwen Pope at Master Your Mergers People Synergy Summit on April 21st their closing fireside chat explores why integration models break down after close and what buyer-led execution actually looks like when it's working if you're running acquisitions or responsible for post-close results this is the session to catch register for free at peoplesynergysummit.com. Again, that's peoplesynergysummit.com. We got a lot here to unpack now. So I like it is one is like literally looking at your whole process from LOI through integration as one continuous process. There's gonna be a lot of like buyer led themes over here.

29:26And I like how you brought what you call it the partner operations. New partner operations. New partner operations. Like you literally have a role and a piece of that role is not only optimizing this whole throughput process end to end, but you mentioned the seller education piece. And I'm curious too, because when you mentioned, hey, if it's proprietary deals, it's important because they don't know the process. But I'm like, even if it's like comparing a bank process through proprietary, I feel like a lot of times the bank process just, here, let's optimize for getting the best price or need to close.

29:57But when you mentioned all this activity hinges around how well you can integrate, you got a 90-day timeline that you're targeting to integrate. Is there a piece of that seller education that actually lends more towards the integration or sort of preparing them for integration? Is that part of it or is it more that comes later? No, it's definitely part of it for us. We often, even to the point of even a first meeting we're having with a prospect, we share our integration guide. It's a 50 plus page document that details each component of our integration process, has all the key people that lead those different processes internally for us.

30:30It really just shows the seller what they're up for once they get over the wall through the transaction process. Because we think that transparency and consistent communication about what's going to happen is really the key to making that process smoother. If there's not an unexpected that's coming their way, even if there's things like technology conversion, a lot of people don't love that part of the process. But they know it's coming and have clear visibility and line of sight on what that's going to look like. So we think that level of transparency, in some cases, it probably makes us look a little bit more heavy handed on the integration side.

31:08But again, going back to when you see some of those larger failed processes, like that disconnect between expectation and reality for the seller and what life will be like post-closing. We don't want any kind of daylight between those two concepts. We want to be very transparent with folks as they come over the wall and know what to expect as a part of the Oak Ridge family. That's like the big piece that kind of gives them a lot of heads up of what's to come and get them prepared for it. Anything else? You have the role. They really are basically supporting the whole process. The big thing I always hear about is this fallout between diligence and integration.

31:43Where do you see your ability to bridge that gap? Yeah, I was a primary culprit of that before we had this new partner operations role. But year one, I was focused, heads down, let's get these transactions closed. We need to grow. I would close it, throw it over the wall to our different functional area leads, HR, accounting, marketing, and basically figure it out. That leads to a very inefficient process. Tons of questions come back. Even though we're buying the same type of business every time we do a deal, there are nuances that make these deals look very different. That inefficiency, chaos, all the rework of translating those key diligence information to our broader team, like just way too much of that critical knowledge, that tribal knowledge set only with me and disseminated out to a larger group was really critical for us.

32:32So that evolution of our process, it was a big factor on getting me out of the sole owner of that. But now we're at the size and scale where we have plenty of folks around the deals day to day where everybody has a good sense of what's going on. so we don't have that breakdown post-closing. So it's all about building that continuity, basically, of that whole process. So it's not, things are just completely handed off and disconnected. Yeah, and we have a relatively consistent process, that integration guide combined with our source of truth in deal room. And we use that as a project management tool as well for our different functional area leads.

33:07They understand the process. And none of our folks came from an NA background. Most of them came from one of our partner acquisitions. So they sat in a HR seat or an accounting seat, but they've come in, they've been through a process, they understand it fundamentally, and they are constantly thinking about how to make that better for the next partner that comes over the walls. Somebody that's kind of been burned from the process coming in, put them in that role so that they can help everybody else have a better experience. Yeah, we did that last year. We did a pretty sizable platform deal down in Florida.

33:39They had a great leader on. She wore a lot of hats for them. CFO, COO type role. She's now our new talent partner on the M &A side on our HR team and does a phenomenal job. Just being able to connect with those employees because she's been through the process and understands when she had to translate what was happening down to her employees. They had about 40 employees that came over, relatively large group. And having been through that and then understanding the value proposition of joining our team, she's an amazing connector of bringing those concepts together, particularly when you get down to the non-principles that are really just being drugged along in the deal process.

34:16I like this approach. You mentioned source of truth and deal room. I never heard of deal room. Tell me about it. And what does it do? No, as you know, great, great product. Again, we were managing everything via the old folder Excel sheet. You get an Excel tracker. We have internal one. You'd have one from your third party accounting diligence. You'd have one from your third party legal. We consolidated all that, made it live real time in deal room. We use Deal Room for the entire M &A process, all the way from our prospect pipeline, all the way through post-closing project management checklist.

34:50Those dependencies you can build in around that project management piece has been huge for us. Because again, we have a small team. We're often integrating anywhere between three and five deals at a time. But we're doing 10 or 12 deals a year. That keeps us organized. Again, keeps me out of having to revisit deal terms and things like that. So that source of truth has been huge. And not just as a database for all of the diligence work we've done, all of the contracts, all of that, but really that project management piece for us has helped us take our process to the next level and not have this drawn out, disconnected process between, okay, we're waiting on our database admin team to scrub the data before our IT team can go in.

35:31All that now is very seamless because of having these dependencies in the system and having our new partner operations lead really manage that as quarterbacking that process. You're getting rid of the series of trackers that you had and you get rid of that. You have it all in one system, which acts as your single source of truth, and you can track your dependencies, keep things better organized. And essentially, you run it end to end. I guess part of the thing is you're also managing the integration here as well. Yeah, absolutely. The integration process for us to get all of the kind of functional area items, they're done by 90 days in, but still making sure we maintain that database and source on what we bought to understand how that's evolved after the fact.

36:13That's a great way to go revisit two years, three years down the road, particularly when they're through their earn-out period, and just understand how that business performed based on what you underwrote at the time. And early on, you could just think back on the thesis around underwriting these individual deals. But with 60 deals that we've closed, you lose track now of what the thesis was at the time, three or four years after the fact. Yeah. So you got this basically archive that you can reference this data back at any point in time. When it comes to scalability, obviously, tech and software is a piece of it.

36:44Is there anything else beyond the tech that really helps when you're running these concurrent deals at different stages? The tech piece was huge for us is getting out of email and emailing spreadsheets around. That was our weak point with our team overall. The other piece is a little more qualitative, but that view on being really transparent with the seller on the whole process. And we have the advantage on all of our proprietary deals because we are walking them through the process a little bit as their advisor at the same time being the buyer. That transparency, clarity on timing, on what the key gating items are, all of that project management for the deal process and constant communication.

37:25One thing we did about 18 months ago for all deals that are in flight, which means post LOI, our VP of new partner operations has weekly calls. It might be a five-minute call some weeks. It might be a 30-minute call, depending on where we are in the process. but that constant and consistent touch point where the seller sees the same people, same faces every week, and has the opportunity to ask questions in that forum. We feel like that transparency and visibility straight into our team has really built just a lot of goodwill with new partners as they come in. That's a key part, really over-communicating, building those relationships, making sure it's a good experience for incoming team members.

38:05The other piece of the tech you mentioned, we looked at integration, is like how well the data is put together. And one of the things you invested a significant amount is building a data lake so you can have real-time dashboards. Can we talk through that? Because I feel like that's another big piece. We talked through your process flow and tech on the execution side, but then what are the things that ultimately land that allows us to be a valuable asset when things are said and done? A couple of things there. One is part of the integration process. We move everyone to single instance of our ERP, even if they're on a different instance of the same system.

38:39We move everybody over. Our database admin team scrubs the data before it comes into our environment. What does that tech stack look like? What GRP system do you guys use? So we use it specific to insurance brokerage called Applied Epic. There's really two big competitors there. Every industry. Applied Epic. Call it a customer record system. It tracks revenue and commission. That tech, it's built off of an older platform. So we have to then pull that out. We've got Databricks on the back end for our warehouse build. And then we pull that through Power BI from Microsoft shop. So we pull that through Power BI.

39:11And what that's done for us, and this project kicked off about two years ago when our new sponsor, Audax, came in. One, they were very supportive of wanting to get through this initiative on the build of this data platform. And we already had the fundamentals where since day one, we were already integrating and moving everyone to our native ERP so that the data was pretty clean. This was just taking that data to the next level, bringing in other dimensions around payroll, around market data, around data from our carrier partners on pricing and things like that. Overall, that has transformed the business from being more reactive to much more proactive.

39:51That's what you really want to get out of this data analytics build platform. Whether it's the revenue side of the house, expense side of the house, that data and dashboards allows our key leaders in the organization to self-service, whether let's say they're a regional leader, they can self-service their own P &Ls, understand their employee metrics, understand their productivity, their organic growth, down it all the way to the individual branch level. And then right now we're pushing through the ability to look at individual producer level. There's a lot of granular data there where it's just so much easier to go find the low-hanging fruit.

40:27And then when there's an issue, there's a headwind in the business, we can immediately go and look at the analytics package and understand where to go look to uncover those issues as we're running the business. So it's been huge for us. The spend always sounds high, particularly when you're sponsor-backed. But I think the risk today of not doing that is future evaluation degradation versus that cash spend today. How do you enable that? I feel like you're doing a lot of system changes. You've got different leaders across organizations spread out regionally, getting them thinking about the same way of utilizing this data.

41:01I feel like I've been in businesses where you struggle with it. You invest and you get the system there, but then the people and how they use it, it's a whole other thing. That's true. I mean, one, we have a great group of folks that are culturally aligned. So back to that cultural piece, if you have that cultural alignment day one, that makes the buy-in easier. We also have the distinct benefit of being majority employee on, meaning which includes ownership for all of our key leaders, whether they be at the region, at the corporate level, in our functional areas in the field. And that alignment through our distributed equity model allows our leaders to, we often ask them to put on their shareholder hat and approach those business decisions, particularly with their tough business decisions, through both the lens of the shareholder and the P &L owner.

41:44And that creates great buy-in and sometimes a little bit of competition among different regions too to drive those metrics. So that distributed equity model is really fundamental to our DNA. It resonates with everything we do and helps create that buy-in with that shareholder mindset versus a push down from the corporate level trying to hit these targets with no context. We don't take that approach of top-down management style. What would you say are the most valuable KPIs for an acquired business? For us, it's the revenue per employee right now. That speaks to efficiency. It also speaks to their ability to scale.

42:20If you look at historical revenue per employee over the last five years, have they been able to scale with a smaller employee base? Are they implementing technology? How are they managing those costs in the business? So to us, that is the headline KPI that we're always looking at. We don't have all the data integrated. And then from there, it's a very granular breakdown of revenue, expense, people, metrics, kind of everything across the board. But that revenue per employee for us is critical. Big emphasis on data. Make sure you get the data integrated. That's the key part. It sounds like the rest isn't that bad.

42:52You follow through. Obviously, there's a people aspect, which you structure the deal for a lot of the retention. You're giving them equity. So you got alignment with the people. You got the data in place so that everybody's on the same page the way we look at the numbers and build our goals around it. Yeah, I feel like if you lead with culture and get the culture aligned, you'll get buy-in around the data piece. From there, everything else is just execution. Culture first, and then making sure that the data can come over in a way that's useful to the broader businesses is our kind of two key focus areas when we're thinking about the integration lens.

43:25Give me some stuff, I don't know. I'm just wondering like the things that you learned in terms of surprises that come out after close or the hidden operational issues that you find out the hard way. Teach me that stuff. There's such a wide spectrum of things that you would be like, I would have sworn we should have covered that during the diligence process. It's headwinds that are macro in nature. For example, right now in our business, great news as a consumer of insurance, but there were no big hurricanes, no big cat events last year. So pricing is soft. That means we feel the pressure on revenue there.

44:00So that puts more emphasis on that new business engine, that organic growth piece for 2026. That's part of the normal cycle. But understanding where that is across the different pockets of the business. The thing that always surprises me the most when we have a new partner coming over is just the level of buy-in that we get from the non-equity holders. You think about all the friction that's created for that employee that sits at the desk level. Their day is getting more complicated. They have to learn a new system as they come over into our environment. They have higher data standards. But being able to really show them the path on why that's going to lead to a better outcome for them long term and then really educate them on what it means to be part of our business.

44:45We get such great feedback and buy-in from a lot of our folks after the fact on that. That's always surprising to me because they're not receiving any economics from the deal. That near-term friction is pretty high for them. But six months down the road, we have a lot of folks come back and say, my opportunities from a career pathing standpoint, the level of professional development that we get as a part of a larger organization, the ability to work across multiple geographies and offices, all that leads to really strong culture building for us. Big and best big on culture. You mentioned earlier, a lot of your deals come from acquired businesses.

45:20Tell me more about that. Like, how do you build pipeline that way? Yeah, so. Good, healthy or proprietary deals, baby. That's what we want. So yeah, you get one of these banker processes and you're one of 20 bidders, it feels like. And they are certainly driving price. That is the main goal. I don't like doing all the work with uncertainty that you're going to get a deal out of it. I hate that part. Back to that sort of employee experience and experience that we try to build for the sellers on our proprietary deals. That makes them feel really good early on about their choice as a partner. Look, there's 50 private equity backfires in our space.

45:56and then another handful of publicly traded and kind of private buyers. So let's say 60 buyers total. Anybody can sell their business to anybody in the market anytime and get that market clearing price and value for the business. We want that experience to be high quality for them. They're incentivized and thinking about coming over day one as a part of the organization and really buying into what we're building. A couple of things maybe that helps us build that referral engine with recent acquisitions. One, and this has been more recent in the last two years, but bringing that VP of new partner operations in has been a huge upgrade on the process, which makes those sellers more confident on our capabilities, just supporting their transaction process and seeing what it's like and that transparency I talked about.

46:43So that gives them confidence that they have a friendly competitor, somebody in another geography that they would recommend to us. That's something that's been huge. Again, high degree of transparency and that communication and education piece on what's going to happen, being honest about the things that will change. That's built really strong connectivity with those sellers. And then finally, and this is back to my last comment, is treating those new partners and their employees with respect as those folks are our greatest asset in the business. We don't feel we can ever be too high touch with employee onboarding, on-site visits.

47:16We often take the entire C-suite for on-site visits, being super responsive as we lead up to closing. It puts a big burden on the executive team and our new talent onboarding folks. But we think that leads faster adoption, stronger buy-in. Those sellers really pick the right partner. It also helps that we have economic incentives for those folks that bring new deals to the table. What does that look like? Is it like a percentage, a kicker? Yeah, a percentage of acquired revenue up to 2%. So it can be meaningful. Not bad. Yeah, it can be meaningful for the larger deals. the challenge in our space is almost any deal over 5 million of revenue has a banker behind it those are hard to find fair enough i know what to do in my spare time now i'm going for you in marketing they would call this matt a flywheel you really nail the customer experience and they go out and they do like word of mouth and then it comes back it's been interesting to watch the first couple years we were out pounding the pavement on telling the story we were a new acquire.

48:15There's all this competition out there that at a 10 ,000 foot level looks very similar to what we're trying to build. As we've gotten more mature, as people have gotten to know us better. The other thing that helps is we're very geographically concentrated. So we're only in eight states in the Southeast. So building that brand value, building that knowledge base for potential new partners, we've seen a lot more inbound interest than we have ever have in the last 12 months. So that's been really helpful in filling that top into the pipeline too. All right. So a little more personal here, but you're the CFO and the chief acquisition officers.

48:48And I know most platforms would separate those roles. Is it because you guys just adopted AI and they make you do all those things? What's the reason for rationale behind that? I'd say day one, it was just, hey, do we want to spend the money on this new startup? We were all wearing a lot of hats. You've been in the startup world. You understand what that looks like. As the business has evolved, it's certainly gotten more challenging. But the interesting thing is M &A and that CFO seat, if you're a strategic CFO, I'm certainly not an accounting person by trade. It's pretty closely connected. I think that CFO seat has really become increasingly strategic as a position over the last several years.

49:25When you think about how that integrates with M &A, it really puts, one, a spotlight on the financial and economic piece of the evaluation criteria as you're underwriting. Also helps have that more broad and earnest view when you're speaking to the potential sellers. I'm often at the first meeting along with our CEO for many of these acquisition targets, which having my CFO title first, people might think that's a little bit odd. But when you think of it in the sense of that corporate development function, it makes a lot more sense. Maybe the other advantage that I have for running M &A is the benefit of being a part of Oak Ridge since our founding.

50:00I'm employee number one. That unique perspective really helps me speak more intelligently about the challenges of building the business to where we are today. all the issues we've solved for on the operations side. And then also just highlighting folks where we're not as fully developed, what we still need to work on is sellers do their reverse diligence on us. So today it's still doable. It feels like there's a lot of advantages to sitting in both seats. But as we scale, we've had to build a lot of folks underneath me on the accounting side, for sure. We have a 20-person accounting department that handles all of the reporting and all that stuff.

50:34It's interesting, though. Can you just give me purely the CFO cap and help me think through the way you would think financially? I feel like, and we talked about this before, of doing acquisitions. There's obviously the deal structure we already touched on. But then what does that impact make on business valuation, share price? And how do you even think through that as a privately held company? The advantage of wearing both hats is, as a corporate development officer, you're very focused on deal count, acquired revenue, growing the overall business. The perspective you bring from the CFO seat is a little bit more measured on what the impact of that capital outlay looks like relative to the other options.

51:17It's always about capital allocation. Where do you spend that money? Is it on acquisition? Is it on development of new technology, new training programs internally? Do we go organically hire a bunch of new producers and see how they fare? So that perspective on not just purely the M &A lens, thinking about what that does to the overall business and what levers we have to drive shareholder value. Like I said earlier, there's just not a lot of multiple arbitrage anymore. So when we go into a modeling exercise around M &A, we're not really building in that much multiple arbitrage. It's all about organic, about how the selling business, how they can tap into our existing platform and our resources for that cross-sell that we talked about.

52:00what other levers can we pull on the revenue side around? Maybe we have better carrier contracts than they do due to our scale. Maybe we can better serve some of their employee benefits customers with some of the resources we've already built out. So that perspective is less focused on the pure M &A volume lens and more about how M &A fits into the overall growth strategy of the business. Thinking big picture, baby. Okay, so this is where we got to summarize some of our lessons that we talked through. Let's say hypothetically, Oak Ridge had a big exit. You cashed out, but you're still motivated to do something else.

52:35And I bring you in and said, hey, Matt, here's this rollout that I found that's already at a good pace doing, let's say, six plus deals a year, but they're truly operating like a revenue aggregator. I'm putting you there in charge. Same role, CFO, Chief Acquisition Officer. What would be the first thing that you would change? Number one, clean up your data. Clean up your data, get your techs back in order. Would you pause, though, doing deals to go back and do that? I would. And we've seen some of those larger acquirers do that. A couple of years ago, there was one that really shut down their whole M &A function for, I'm going to say, 12 to 18 months and solely focused on integration, including that transition of the data, the system, the people, the brands of all the legacy businesses they acquired.

53:21So yeah, I would hit the pause button on that and get the house in order. Those parameters you gave, it's not so big that at that stage that you can't clean it up in a quarterly fashion. The bigger you get, though, the more difficult that becomes, particularly if you don't have geographic concentration, you've got a lot of small offices out in the field. That cleanup process has to happen, particularly before you go out to market for either a recap or a sell process. That lack of ability to provide proof points is such a big differentiator as part of that diligence. I would put that behind, probably second behind organic growth as driver of overall value.

53:56Can you validate these proof points on your investment thesis? The sooner you get done with that hard work of integrating, I think the better position you'll be to sell the story to the next buyer. I would do it day one, come in, get the data cleaned up, get the tech stack in order, get everybody rowing in the same direction from that perspective. Our business is so data heavy. It's clear if you're not working down that path today. I would agree. And I'd say pretty much every business nowadays is very data heavy. Any other takeaways, things you've learned over the years? Like I said early on, I didn't come into M &A intentionally, but got a taste of it in my first role.

54:34And just really love the dynamic nature of it. Anyone that is thinking about a career at M &A, whether it's on the corporate development side, on the integration side, it's super dynamic and something that really engages you day to day. I'm planning on staying in the space for quite a while. Hey, James, this has been good. I got to ask you before we wrap up here, what's the craziest thing you've seen in M &A? Oh, craziest thing. There's nothing that beats this. We were doing a diligence engagement when I was a buy-side banker on a deal. We were advising a big strategic. They were looking at a second acquisition, going through diligence, tying out the tax returns of the seller and all this work.

55:11The seller was deducting their mortgage at their house under the argument that they parked their work vehicle there. So it was really a parking expense. So there was this line item of parking expense that was several thousand dollars a month that was his mortgage payment. So we opted out of that deal. Let's put it that way. Wow. Very aggressive tax position. Wow. And the fact that killed the deal. It killed the deal indirectly. That makes you question the quality of the people you're partnering with. Well, and it goes back to that thing where it's like you get one red file, so you're putting way more scrutiny on everything else.

55:45Yeah. How you operate. Yeah. Without that, that deal would have probably died anyway. but that definitely put it over the edge. That was an interesting call to make. Hey, this has been a great conversation, Matt. I appreciate you taking the time, school of me, helping me become a better M &A scientist. I appreciate it. I love the conversation and appreciate being asked to join today. So thanks so much for having me. Those of you still tuned in, my fellow M &A scientists, I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear feedback, what you thought about this podcast. If you got ideas for topics that we haven't covered yet, if you got some feedback and criticism for me, I'll welcome, take it.

56:19I'm always trying to improve and get better. Feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I got my filter thing down, so I get a bunch of spam. So make a comment and say, hey, I listen to the podcast, so I know you're an actual listener and not just somebody that's going to pitch me another service that we don't need. Until next time, here's to the deal.

56:48Thank you for taking the time to explore the world of M &A with our podcast. We love hearing feedback. Tag us on a LinkedIn post, add a review on Apple Podcasts. We'd love to hear from you. If you need help standing up an M &A function or optimizing one that you already have, we're here to help. And if we can't help you, we probably know someone that can. You can reach out to me by email, Kisan, K-I-S-O-N, at mascience.com. or you can text me directly at 312-857-3711. If you just want to keep learning at your own pace, visit mascience.com for a lot more content and resources. That's where you can also subscribe to our newsletter.

57:32Again, that's mascience.com. Here's to the deal.

58:01Thank you.