Alex Trippier on Why We Are All Having The Same Arguments

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1:45Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas, the podcast. I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot.

1:58Georgia Dayton: We really have. Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, we're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands. And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review. You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mummies. But for now, George, should we get into it? It's September. It is. And I think it's back to school day for quite a few people. I mean, some of us still got a few days left.

2:32Georgia Dayton: Yeah. And I hope, you know, hopefully you're getting to listen to this on your own. After you've dropped the kids. Yeah, exactly. But it's so much more of a new year, September to me, than like January. Well, I haven't really thought about any resolutions or any changes. Oh, we don't have to worry about that yet, Jordan. We're doing all right. It's a good job you and I. Perfect. I often think about the new parents at this time of year, actually, and taking sort of us back to when we had to drop Axel and Luna off for the first time and they were starting reception and what a big moment that was.

3:03So if you've just had to do that and it's been, you know, maybe upsetting or you're upset, then we're thinking of you this morning. Yeah.

3:10Georgia Dayton: Or, you know, if you've just waved off your kids for the first day of secondary school and they're like getting on a train or a bus or whatever on their own and you're just sitting there anxiously watching them on Find My iPhone or Life 360 or something. Yeah, we're with you this morning. Yeah, we really are. But it's a nice feeling. Should we just round up the summer in three words? Yeah, go on, you go first. Mine has been present, joyful, and purifying. Okay, mine are going to be quite different to yours. Mine has been chaotic, fun. Yeah. And what's the opposite of relaxing? Chaotic. Yeah, chaotic, chaotic and fun.

4:08And fun. Okay, I like it. There's been no rest. You're allowed to use the same words. There's been no rest. George, well, listen, you and I are going to, we haven't told our kids or our husbands yet, but we've decided that we're going to go away now. Yes. The two of us.

4:18Georgia Dayton: Yes, we are. And have a couple of days in some spa just lying horizontally. So let's do that. Anyone want to join us as well, we'll let you know where we're at. Yeah. And actually, anyone who feels a bit frazzled after the school holidays, do something like that. Like take a day off work. Even if you just go and like sit in one of those amazing saunas, there's so many around now. Like you can do the sauna and the cold plunge and all of that. Just go and do something like that for the day. Don't tell anyone you're taking the day off. Yes. And just sneak off. Yeah, definitely. I think we all deserve it.

4:49Georgia Dayton: Yes, we do. We need to talk about today's conversation because we love it when we get a dad on the podcast. I didn't think I would love this conversation as much as I did. Really? Because, to be honest with you, I didn't know too much about today's guest. and I don't think you quite get it to the degree that we got it until you sit down in front of him and see his eyes and the way that he articulates his feelings. There were periods during this conversation where his eyes were filled with tears because of his experiences and his feelings around shame and he has the most beautiful insight into men and women.

5:29Yeah, I was gonna say

5:30Georgia Dayton: Yeah, he was sort of talking about how much he'd gone in and read like books that were, you know, targeting mums and talk about motherhood. And until he read those books, he was quite late on. Like, you know, I think he had slightly older kids, maybe our age kids at the time. He didn't realize quite what a mum goes through and quite what a different experience it is. because I do think like we oh god how many how many times have we said this like we you know the the mental load is the load it's not doing all the stuff it's thinking about it that's the thing that is the most challenging yeah and to hear a man come on and say yeah do you know what I get it and then almost translate it yes for like for men to understand um I think it's really quite special and I'm I think he's really changing um you know the way just actually making couples a bit happier because they're understanding each other yes oh my god George you've just articulated it so beautifully and since we recorded the podcast I've actually had quite a big in-depth conversation with Doz about it and he was bringing his insight to it and I was talking about how Alex was framing it and how I feel and how lots of other mums feel and he was trying to give an insight into how men feel in these moments and it was it's just been it's oh god it's really changed the way i think yeah i really left the conversation thinking fucking hell what an insight yeah he's brilliant we need to get into it georgia who are we talking to today we're chatting to alex trippier but you might know him as be a happier parent on instagram really really excited to have parenting powerhouse that's what we're calling him today alex on the podcast dad to three podcast host, writer, couples coach, speaker, the list goes on, and the man who talks more sense around parenting than most neuroscientists do about the brain, is Alex Trivia.

7:27Georgia Dayton: Welcome, Alex. Thank you, guys. You're one of these guests who we start talking before we record and then we're like, oh no, stop, stop, stop. Stop. But just before we get into the chat, tell us about your morning. How's it been? What have you been doing? Good, good. Went for a run. Very excited about today. I run a kids club in the holidays. So went and checked in on all the kids there and everything's going well. And then got over here. You run a kids club. So tell us a bit about that. So for primary school age kids, it's in Kensal Rise in London. And the basic thing is that I think you get this, right?

8:06If your kids like football or drama, you're sorted in this country. And if they don't, you're in a bit of a mess. And then there's this whole thing when you've got to work. and whenever you drop them off, you just feel this enormous guilt. My kids haven't forgiven me for the shitty kids' clubs that I used to put them in. It's all right. We're going to change the face of kids' clubs forever, so it's going to be fine. But yeah, it's really great because my kids work there now because they're older. Little kids pay a lot more rent. They'll listen to teenagers in a way they won't listen to me. We try and make it as little like school as possible.

8:41It's really great.

8:41Georgia Dayton: What do you do that makes it so different? They come up with all the games. So it's like, what do you guys want to do? And they've got so many games and so many ideas. And we just write them down and we take votes. It's just like school, you're constantly... I hated school. I hated it so much. You're just constantly being told what to do as a kid. So it's just trying to give them a bit of agency. It's like, what do you want to do? Because you're on holiday? Yeah. That's amazing. And I want, like, before we get into the chat, because we've got loads of questions that we want to ask you, Alex. Can you just give our listeners a bit of an insight into how you kind of started your Instagram, you know, a bit about your career, your past, that kind of thing?

9:24So I've always worked with kids and I love kids. And I'm like, I'm just going to say it, objectively good with kids. So I really felt like I was a great dad. And the universe told me I was a great dad. I got a lot of compliments, mainly from women. Like, you know, oh, you're so great with them, blah, blah, blah, blah. The only person who didn't seem to agree was my wife. She was massively underwhelmed by my parenting. There's so much John Pick there. There's so much John Pick there. So we had like a lot of arguments, you know. And this, statistically, your time with young children is the time of greatest relationship, dissatisfaction for mums and dads.

10:05The dads don't have a good time in the relationship either. that and I went on holiday with some mates who had younger kids than mine and it was like oh this is like identical yeah you've got this kind of anxious irritated like quite critical mum yeah with this dad who's just like eye-rolly and thinks that everything he's being asked is a little bit over the top but okay there and it's just it's really fractious arguing about who's having more fun who's getting more sleep who's doing what just all these arguments and it was like oh this actually this wasn't about me and Eloise there's something else going on and I just I knew there was this problem and then I picked up a book by a guest you've had on the show uh called melissa hoggenboon yeah her first book yeah so she wrote breadwinners but her first book was called the motherhood complex yeah and that was just sat in our house and i knew it wasn't for me because it had sort of pregnant woman on the front but i i just started flicking through it and it was like oh this is very very different to being a dad because i'd always have been a bit like well you know the pregnancy's over the breastfeeding's over we're just two people raising kids what's the difference but it's really really different being a mum and a dad there's this whole bunch of judgments on you guys that we don't get a whole bunch of expectations all the mental load stuff I it was just so clearly that's that's what had been going wrong That's the stuff that I was missing that was underneath all our arguments.

11:56And I could just see it happening with all my mates.

11:59Georgia Dayton: What were you hearing from your friends? So what you hear from men is, God, they're determined to be miserable. Oh, God, fuck.

12:12No. That is it. And obviously being a parent's great because being a daddy is great, right? You know, we get, we get, I'm not saying we cherry pick the fun stuff, but we end up with a lot of the fun stuff. We're not stressing the whole time. We're not worrying the whole time. We're not doing the disaster planning. We're not doing the anticipating. We're not overwhelmed in the same way. So there is this kind of, God, what is the problem kind of thing that you get from men. So I just really wanted to try and take, I became really obsessed with motherhood books. and I started my own podcast where I was interviewing all the authors of this these books which was amazing they were like yeah sure I'll do it like these really huge names in America and stuff you're a man I'll talk to you male privilege in the space and I just really wanted to kind of translate this for men but then also translate for mums but it's like we're not bad we're not lazy we're just not seeing what you're seeing we can learn to do it but this is what's

13:18Georgia Dayton: going on for us as well you know because i yeah i saw one of your posts because i was trying to explain to my husband like what it is like why my brain judgy james exactly why my brain is so much fuller and like busy than his and because he really you know does a lot like washing takes kids to clubs all the things that on paper everyone's like oh but he's really good and I'm like yeah okay but he doesn't know it's such and such his birthday on Saturday and then we've got to get a card and a present and then wrap it he doesn't know the dentist appointment is here and then if you don't turn up for the dentist appointment then you then your space on the NHS then goes because they have to go every six months otherwise they don't keep you on their face he doesn't know all these things and I think you put that down like you know what was her problem I take the bins out i do this i do that all of the dishwasher i cooked last week yeah but it's not oh how can i help and it's like no don't ask i don't want to have to tell you and that's what i think you did a post that said exactly that and i read it and i was like oh my god i haven't sent it to james josh james yet but tonight when it doesn't feel like pointy i'll be like oh i interviewed this guy today it's very interesting actually let me read it to you the passive aggressive yeah i get it yeah do you get um kickback from men around you and how you speak about this to this situation um in in homes on instagram like do you get any kickback yeah totally you know what's the response my wife's a control freak and i'm a simp it's the kind of narrative i get from blokes i also get some really gorgeous messages from men and i now have this members group and I this is just so exciting for me because I started this thing I wanted to translate this stuff for men 85 % of my following on Instagram is female so I'm just mainly talking to mums and it's like you guys know this shit anyway but my members group is mainly men I've only got like 220 people in it I've just started it but it's mainly blokes who are like their wife has sent them the thing and they're like ah okay I can sort of see what I've been missing um but you know it's social media isn't it people get outraged that's the kind of whole medium so there's a lot of nasty comments from people but that is just kind of part of doing business isn't it but I guess what I what I sort of mean by that is and I'll use this example of what happened on the train this morning when I was watching some of your videos and I I let Doz Doz was lit and I said oh we're interviewing Alex today on the podcast and he was like talking about mental load because he's quite similar to Judgey James he does a lot around the house he's you know he's a really present parent he works his ass off as well but sometimes I'm like you don't you use my brain to find things like he'll shout at me oh where are your car keys and he hasn't even looked in the fucking car key car key drawer like they are in the car key drawer so and you did a post and beautifully but Doss's reaction was yeah well you know we just see things a bit differently even though he would probably love you and you would love him but his initial reaction was well I do my fair share and what's she sort of what's her problem so I'm wondering how we change that narrative and why we feel or why you feel that men take that stance okay well let's start with the second part of that why we take that stance underneath that defensiveness there is shame sometimes quite severe a shame that we haven't really looked after you that we haven't looked after our partners from pregnancy onwards we look around we compare ourselves to what we see other men doing and it's pretty easy as a bloke to look around because there's some really shit men out there to be like I'm way above average I'm fine but actually to sort of acknowledge that what all the data says is true, that if your partner is frustrated and resentful, she's not making it up.

17:42To just listen and be like, do you know what? I'm probably not doing enough. It's pretty scary for a man. We've often been hit. We've often been shouted at and punished as children. in a way that girls haven't. So being a bad man can be very scary. And we still do that to kids now, even if we decided we're not going to hit them. Statistically, I know Melissa may have talked to you about this, but we're much more likely to take a punitive stance with little boys than we are with girls. From a very early age, we tell them to toughen up and they're not allowed to feel certain things. So this shame thing is a really big piece that I'm dealing with with the the guys on my group and actually if you're having these fractious resentful arguments sometimes what what gets through that is if your partner if mum sees you're like sees you sitting in it that sense having of having not done enough then often our partners are like oh whoa I didn't want to do that to you because I love you it's quite an extreme reaction when when you see a man sitting in shame it's very rare you seem quite emotional I still carry a lot talk to us about that yeah

19:10you know when I first started reading uh books about motherhood one of the things that really came up for me was that uh I hadn't really looked after my wife very well when she was pregnant. Okay. Yeah. Three times. Yeah. You know, I kept drinking and we were party people. I kind of kept going with that. And it was like, well, you know, I'm coming to the classes. I'm, I'm reading the books. I'm doing more than the next bloke. But I never, I mean, when I read Lucy Jones's matricence, you know, I, I, I never got curious about the fact that my wife was two people. that she was already a mum and I wasn't a parent yet you know it was just this kind of are you all right well I'm really tired yeah we always say that so same as normal you know and there was just no curiosity and I spent so much energy

20:20telling her there wasn't a problem and diminishing what she was going through and the stress by the way the instinct to do that is still in me when she gets frustrated and upset you know it's on the tip of my toe are you being ridiculous this isn't a big deal i have to push that stuff down and and really look at this person who i love who i know is fucking tough as shit right but she's suffering but but for years i just pushed i just pushed that away i wouldn't have it was too uncomfortable for me so i just wouldn't allow it and when when when you allow it and you understand that actually this thing this dynamic that we are all in because we're all in it it's it's not your fault as a man individually because it happens to everyone but it is your problem yes that's a good way to put it and it is your responsibility to do something about it if you want to have a better life and that is that's a better relationship right you know but but it's a better life it's a better relationship with your partner it's a better relationship with your children my 17 year old daughter comes to me with her problems not because I'm this fun dad who's always there for the fun bits yeah it's because I know when the dental appointments are it's because I'm aware of what's going on in her life it's because I do some of that disaster planning the mental load that mums carry is love it's deep love and care and we've never been told as men that that's available to us but it is we can lean into that and we can train ourselves to see the world differently and have a richer life we'll be right back after this short break

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23:37Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we?

23:40Georgia Dayton: How do you work with men when they, you know, they join your members group or they come, you know, come to you? Where do you start? Because it's such a huge thing. You know, you're getting upset looking at how you felt. and I can imagine that it will take a lot of men ages to get to that like to to actually see it that way so where do you start so um beautiful by the way Alex thank you yeah thanks guys um so let's do you and James yeah okay all right so this is what happens to you it happened to you and James and I don't know you guys right so I'll just have a stab at it yeah okay all right So you and James meet and you fall madly in love.

24:24Age 17. Nice. And you decide you're going to have a baby. And that's really, really exciting. But even at that point, you've thought about this a lot more than James has, right? Since puberty, you've had this monthly reminder that at some point in your life that you are going to conceive. You know there's a finite window on that, whereas James can have kids into his 60s. James has never kind of played weddings or families with his mates. He's never signed his surname with a different surname with his signature. Like he's just thought about it a lot less. And that kind of makes sense, right? Because James can actually have thousands of kids.

25:04Whereas it's much bigger deal for you, just biologically speaking. And then what happens is you get pregnant and it's your body, right? So you start researching like mad because you're quite terrified, right? And also you're making all these decisions about how you're going to have birth. and it would be really weird if James was to make those decisions, right? I've decided how you're going to give birth. That would be abusive, right? So James reads some of the books. He goes along to the classes. He's like feeling quite great, but you're the one who's researching. And then James thinks there's going to be this moment when you have Axel where he's going to become a dad.

25:41But actually what happens is human birth is some degree of traumatic. yep he ends up in this support role on the outside of the mother infant dyad you're deciding whether or not to breastfeed you're choosing the kids routines you are setting the rhythm of the house I mean not quite setting it depends if your kid eats or sleeps the main variables right and you're still researching like mad child development all this stuff James goes back to work usually after two weeks you usually take about two days two days right yes in that time you are becoming the expert in your home about all these things.

26:19And to start with, you quite enjoy it, right? Because you've told all your life that this is actually where you're going to make a difference. And this is, as my wife says, your ultimate destination. This is going to be your thing. So you're buying darling little socks and you're booking monkey music classes and swimming classes and all this stuff. And it's great. But at some point, usually when you go back to work or sometimes when there's a second child you're like hang on yeah how come i'm in charge of our family how come i'm the only one who's ever done any research how come you've never bought a sock how come you've never bought a claire james gets really defensive he doesn't like it right he starts listing all the things that he does do but that is when couples come to me and if I can explain to dads that story that it's not their fault this is what's happened the systems there's biology there's all the things we've just got to deal with this imbalance that happens to everyone and find a new way that they're often ready to listen after that it's like okay if we can understand how it happens yeah and it's not no one's made any real decisions there no one chose those roles this is just where we end up yeah and most men haven't been like

27:34Georgia Dayton: this is down to you off you go no that's not the norm i mean maybe some but i don't know any but yeah it just it happens slowly i think that's so true i did i had a year off and i became the like expert and james was working a lot not really around at weekend like it was all very me yeah yeah i just had you it was just the two of us yeah it was yeah and that was yeah a very low level of expert but it's true it's that's so true and i can see why that happens and it did like we would have arguments about the dishwasher about all of these things for years years and years and years and i'd say now seven years on it's changing a bit you know like it's shifting a bit because because though you have become more not empowered but i guess you have now started having those conversations yeah yeah you're used to write lists and be like oh no everything that i do and this is everything that you do let's have a look let's just prepare them but it would be like this burning resentment i mean one point you were packing your bags and yeah divorce laws on the laptop that's you know but just pass ag passive passive aggressively so you've you've come yeah i did look yeah yeah yeah i've got the list did you ever show james that yeah of course yeah i've got Empty dishwasher, make milk, make packed lunches, book, bag, snack, water bottles, reading, spellings, email clubs for half term, school clubs, organize childcare, make sure kids have clothes, shoes, socks, products, get kids dressed, make breakfast, clear away breakfast, load dishwasher back up, food shopping, milk, beverage, making dinner, making lunch, giving snacks, unloading washing machine, putting away washing, clearing.

29:06Georgia Dayton: I have literally, I wrote it all down. And what did he do? La la la la la la la la la la la.

29:19Georgia Dayton: to be fair though he did take that on and did start doing that but it didn't solve the problem no well i think what's interesting is that what i often did in response to my wife's overwhelm is like right well i'll just do more i'll do more right and i was i worked with little kids so i was around for every bath time and bedtime but right i'll do the bit right i'll go to the shop But all the data shows that it is not the doing of tasks that pushes mums towards overwhelm and burnout. It's this holding of responsibility. It's the fact that if I don't think about what's for dinner on Wednesday, no one will.

30:00We'll get it to Wednesday and James will be like, oh, wait, should I cook? Right. Should I go to the, you know, it's just this constant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's that. They're the bits we've got to tackle. and you're not going to like this ladies be careful because we love you at the moment yeah we can kick you out men don't need to take on that many of them for you guys not to feel completely fried I'm totally fine with that because I always and I want to hold a bit of space for that actually because I think that's really important it actually isn't about who's doing more and who's doing less it's about somebody sitting down in front of me and saying or us and saying I'm invested in everything that you do and I want to be here to support you so how can I help you with that mental load and that would be a beautiful refreshing conversation that doesn't appear to present at times I also in the same breath want to hold space for a different level of invisible responsibility that men feel and I want to ask you about that today so that we can get some understanding because this is not a man bashing exercise for me and for George.

31:10Sometimes my husband will say to me, you have no idea the financial stress and responsibility of the ultimate provider, even though we're a double income household, he earns more money than me. If I don't earn money that month because I'm a freelancer, who has to provide for it? He does. And he says to me that that is like an overriding feeling that won't leave him ever. And he can't talk about that. So can we talk a little bit about that and why that's drilled into men and how can we help men in that space to understand that can i just quickly say no no that's really i just want to quickly say something just on the last point and we'll come on to the provider thing about that it not having to be 50 50 in that conversation of appreciation there's there's research by this guy in the states called daniel carlson who says that basically like if you and i are in a relationship i don't know i keep choosing you but you and i relationship and we are way out right you're carrying 80 of the household and i'm only doing 20 am i working as well doesn't matter at the moment right if we can agree that that's the case yep if we can look through that list and i can be like wow you're carrying 80

32:28Georgia Dayton: here you're amazing i acknowledge that we're all right yeah okay if we are like 60 40 and i'm adamant that we're 50 50 now we're in trouble yeah right so it's not we can handle imbalance we just can't handle it when it's not acknowledged because that becomes injustice and humans can't take injustice we'll fight for it we'll die for it right so I just think that's a really good thing to know that acknowledgement is hugely important I love that yeah I love that because because actually then we feel validated right then we're heard then we're seen then there's not like well I'm handling this stress over here which might just be one big plate of financial stress but we're handling 100 % the mental load and everything else at home so that doesn't balance that out.

33:19It's not about a balancing act is it? It's a real... You don't have to be 50-50 It's an acknowledgement. I've never seen anyone who's 50-50.

33:25Georgia Dayton: No, no, no. And it's not realistic either in any way. But you're right. It's just the acknowledgement of it. So I think on this work piece, right, on this ultimate provider piece, A I've never felt like that in my relationship so I can't talk about that from my... My wife's eight years older than me and she was a real fucking shit kicker in the corporate space. So I've never, you know, and we've always worked, we've run businesses together, we work together. I've never felt that way. So I don't have that personal sense. What I say to a lot of guys who are like, this isn't fair. All you talk about is this side of what mums carry being appreciated.

34:08I work really hard. I don't feel appreciated. If you are working incredibly hard, you're carrying all that, financial stress and you don't feel appreciated not by me some geezer you've never met on the internet but by the person that you love the most try looking for the stuff that you're missing try giving them appreciation for the things that you're doing all the things that I was missing all the mental load stuff all the things that you've been talking about the carrying the responsibility and I promise you what will happen is you will start to get appreciation back for the stuff that you're doing but what happens is we get into this horrible gratitude deficit where mums are like all the stuff I do is unseen so I am not giving you any praise for the work that you do or any of the things that you do and by the way your paid work already comes with some praise called a salary yeah exactly and it's acknowledged in that way and we're like wow nothing I does counts, nothing I do counts.

35:17So I'm not going to offer you any gratitude. We just end up in this, it's just so awful. And the way out of that is, is, is practicing gratitude and thanking the person who you love and seeing the things that they're doing. And it will come back. Look, I'd say the same to mums, right? You know, if you're like, you're not seeing, just, just try giving appreciation for what the guy's doing and it will come back. You start, you start a different culture in your home you know should there be is there an argument about um having a contract on who does what before a baby comes along because we spoke so I don't know who we had all this is like all of this mental load and all of the stuff needs to be sorted before like you do the birthday presents I do the school um you know play date arrangements you do this I do that and and so that everybody knows what they're doing obviously things will shift and move and stuff that you didn't know will come up as the kids get older but should there really be a conversation before the kids come along that it's ultimately not just going to fall on the ones that have birthed the child to do all that stuff because we don't want to fucking do it all some of it is the most boring tedious shit in the whole entire world right right yeah i think that's yeah so some of it's just like i think also you know men are in this it's just a weird position where you're like right so hang on i've got to really pitch to take over and prove that i'm competent at these shit jobs that i don't

36:39Georgia Dayton: want to do it it's like making a terrible cup of tea on your first day at work you make a terrible cup of tea no one asks you to do it again and you're like yeah yeah yeah yeah weaponized incompetence is functional yeah i i've been trying along with a whole bunch of other academics in the states who are like that that's the main people i talk to because they're the ones who've done loads the research around this stuff to work out how we get these conversations into an antenatal space and it's really hard because you've got one preoccupation when you're pregnant you've got to get that thing out of there so someone's like who's going to do birthday cards like what the fuck are you talking about yeah yeah who's the nappy been you're like what i'm pretty terrified about this thing here now but i wonder if um you know the antenatal space is so obviously so mum focused that if there is a place for talking to dads about this stuff early on because the honest truth is and there's data here as well that when dads take on more of this stuff they do much better in in in terms of mental health they feel confident they feel competent their relationships better her.

37:56And so, yeah, I think, I think it would be about trying to have this conversation with men earlier on. I'm not sure how realistic it is to have it with expectant mums. No, no, no. I almost went between like two couples before they decided to have a bit. Yeah. Right. You know, like my role is not going to just be, because I didn't even think about it. Did you? No, no, no, no. Before we just had casual sex and got to pull out. I was like, this is fucking great. Do you know what I mean? I was all set up for everything. I didn't realise.

38:22Georgia Dayton: Yeah, no. Did you? No, no, no, definitely not. I don't think we ever had a discussion until like two years in, like where our roles were and what we wanted to do and all of that. I don't think, I think we were just muddling through at the beginning. I think that's right. I think we all sleepwalk into it. And then that's kind of the work I do. It's like if this was a corporate environment and you were saying, hang on, I don't want to do all these jobs anymore. I need you to do them. That will come with enormous complications. yeah so it isn't just as simple as being like right I want you to be in charge of this stuff there's a kind of learned incompetence that men have often had a lot of this stuff done for them by women but there's also we aren't judged to the same standards that you are yeah right so then it becomes really difficult to be working towards someone else's standards all the time so you've got got to have systems in the same way that you would in a workplace to be like okay this is how this thing gets done.

39:25You can find your own way of doing it, but this is why. These are the stakes. This is why it matters. All that stuff that women are carrying invisibly. And mums get quite frustrated. It's like, well, why can't you just see it? I'm just telling you, we can't. We see the world differently. We're not making it up either. We're not judged in the same way. And that judgment is incredibly powerful.

39:50Georgia Dayton: We'll be right back after this short break.

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41:06Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? Can I ask a question around men and being alphas? And is there something... You're asking the right guy, but... I literally... You screamed alpha when you walked in the door. No, about that sort of preconditioning when you're raised about what a man should be. I'd like to like dive into that a little bit. Or what a dad should be as well, yeah. Or what a dad should be and the role models and I guess what you're maybe trying to undo, what you're trying to carry on that you think is great. Just because obviously we've never been men who are alphas.

41:41Never, not once. Not once, although I have jumped by having a penis quite a few times. The things I do. go on Alex so one of the things I wrote an article about this for the eye about you know me really trying to toughen my son up in the in the early years because he was a really really really sensitive kid used to cry at the bottom of drop of a hat used to cry at the top of a hat just crying to the bottom of a hat everywhere he went he used to cry at the top of a hat and I was like you can't you can't you cannot you can't just cry all the time and it comes from a place of love it's a kind of I know kids like you have a shit time of it you've got to toughen up I spent all this energy trying to get him to change and And sorry, I could go off on a massive tangent here.

42:41No, no, no, tell us. And luckily my mum said to me, it's like, you're annoyed with him that he's not all tough and, you know, he's not going to box and stuff like that. But you weren't like that when you were that age. And it just really made me think. I'm like, well, no, I don't. I don't know if I've ever really been like that. I had a real persona around it. I used to get in a lot of fights. I used to be quite aggressive. Okay. and I don't think it was ever really me but there's this thing we do to boys which is basically like you're not allowed to say things hurt just even physical let's just stick with physical stuff right you're not allowed to say things hurt you're not allowed to complain that you're physically uncomfortable like that's when I'm from the north you're not even allowed to say you're cold yeah It's so weird.

43:32You're not allowed to say food's spicy. Like it gets really weird.

43:36Georgia Dayton: Yeah, no, that's so true. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's like sweat dripping off your eyeballs. You use that to anyone, right? Yeah. But all, the thing is it works. Like it works. Like eventually you shut down this thing where you can feel pain and that's a physical thing. And these feelings that kind of come up in our bodies, these emotions we can do it with that too we get really good at it and in some environments that has enormous function right if you're going to war if you're a firefighter if you're there's various where it's actually really really good useful thing to be like no but the problem is we don't learn to do the other bit we learn how to get back on the bike and keep pedaling we don't learn that actually it's really important to be like that really hurts and I'm really upset and that feels unfair so all of that kind of toughness leaks into our emotional range and then we've also got this weird thing with masculinity where we don't quite know what it is we just know it's not femininity yes so that anything that's deemed as feminine like you know being nurturing but also i would say just genuine like like tidiness making things look nice comfort all those things that's just not for us and it's not there's no status in it for us so we we genuinely don't care as much about it and so i think those are those are problems that we have when we're living together and trying to make a home and and and mums seem to worry all the time about their kids discomfort they're constantly predicting in a scenario like will my kid feel any discomfort around yes intrusive thoughts come in the whole time you're like oh my god they're going to fall in the road oh my god they're going to hurt themselves and then you become this helicopter parent that's constantly thinking about the worst thing all the time and it's horrible for us because I also never was like that were you like that before no just going about your amazing PR job in London no no so and then we do this thing with like well they'll be fine well I was fine yeah are you fine mate yeah are you really fine right but they both have value but basically if we can lean in a bit more to the oh I do care about my child's discomfort that is important sometimes then you guys can relax a bit like there's like a sort of finite anxiety level in the home and if we just take on a bit more you can take on a bit less yes and it doesn't mean mums and dads have to parent the same way no like dads do push towards adulthood yes and mums cocoon yes you know i've heard it i've seen it in your post like really good examples of this and that's really great and i don't think we don't want dads to become this oh my god like it's not that's not good for kids either you can't have two parents who would or just one parent who's always like that no but what i can do is acknowledge that your bit's important rather than every time you do it dismissing it yeah stop fussing yeah it's just like okay i can see you're worried about i'm really glad i've got someone who's thinking about the kids in that way when you do that mums can listen to you back and they're like okay but as long when you keep diminishing the other person's point of view then you just stop listening to each other and you pull off in these different directions there was such a i wanted to share this and talk about this just briefly that something happened across the weekend and it like it utterly devastated me because i thought it's fucking mad to say this out loud came downstairs the back door was open sliding door was open no kids were downstairs we locked it kit came down i said kit did you open the back door he said no and i was like that's really weird anyway went back upstairs started to get myself ready kit was like where's luna i was like oh i don't know isn't luna downstairs with you and she he said no no luna's not she's not downstairs and i was like let me just poke my head in her bedroom luna not in her bed so does is asleep isla's upstairs in the attic asleep so it's like 7 30 and i was like where's luna i was like why is the back door open we've got a pool i was like right so ran out into the garden luna not in the pool thank god went back in the house i was like kit go and check in luna's bedroom he went upstairs checked in her bedroom she wasn't in her bed I start going oh my god Luna is not in the house okay goosebumps I was going Luna Luna where is like my heart for 30 or 45 seconds I was like Luna's not in the house running into every room Luna's not in the house Luna's not in the house my husband I walked around in the bed I said Luna's not in the house you've got to get up Luna was in her bed lying sound asleep underneath a sheet flat like this right and she was like mommy mommy and I was like oh my god Luna and I was grabbing her she was crying I was crying now I'm not hating on Doz but his reaction was this is way too dramatic and as opposed to turning around to me and hugging me and saying fucking hellzo I'm so sorry that you've just been through that like I genuinely thought someone had come in and taken Luna yeah that's what I thought yeah he just walked back into the bedroom shut the door and I thought fucking hell like it was such a difference between i don't know maybe just between him and i but also just that like pure understanding that yes it was dramatic but in that moment i was but that would be a very dramatic thing to happen you know if that had actually happened then you wouldn't be being dramatic it's just because it hadn't happened so your reaction should be the same because you didn't know in that moment why can't someone lean in and just go fucking hell are you all right that was pretty intense for you it was weird in those moments when we see you very scared yeah panicking freaking out yeah these are all things that we're not allowed to be right we're not allowed to be scared it's just that thing it's just like in that moment it's Well, no, obviously that worst, terrible thing hasn't happened.

49:48I'm going to remain functional. And also we hear in that our child's gone missing. I know this just sounds so pathetic, but there's some criticism that we hear in there. It's you've let something happen. You're supposed to be protecting our family and you haven't. you know I think all of that's going on with that dismissive shutdown of god this is so over the top this is so hysterical it's a kind of if you were fine this would be fine because we're just not allowed as men and that's that's all stuff we've got to we've got to deal with as well okay so yeah I hadn't really thought yeah I wanted in that moment or I really needed was the opposite of the reaction that I got.

50:39So I just shut my door and just burst into tears by myself and just thought, was I being dramatic? No. And my cortisol was just up here. But I really want to have that. So I'll have it first on the podcast and then I'll take it to Doz when I get in. We do have this weird, just this really making me think, because we do this when you're in, you women. Because I've just been writing about it today. You know, when Eloise was stressed, grumpy, overwhelmed, my instinct to start with, I could diminish, but also I'd just really, really be totally like chirpy. There's like this attempt to be compensatory, which in the cold light of day is so fucking annoying.

51:22Like if you're in a bad mood and the other person's like, when has that ever worked? but but like we do feel this need to be compensatory in our relationships like you're scared i'll be you know brave and then you but you're grumpy i'll be really really happy it never works no we want in those moments of of big emotion like relationship is like we want to do the ups and the downs together yeah you want me to hold your hand when you're low and celebrate the good stuff when we're high and we just need to kind of break out of this instinct to compensate for the other person's negative mood oh yeah that's it isn't it so then we're talking about

52:06Georgia Dayton: you know men who are dads now and how you know there's lots of things that have probably been instilled in them since they were little how do we then um like sort of break the chain and break the cycle for our boys because you know i've got a 10 year old so he's got an eight year old like what do we do so that they don't feel shame for being upset? So they don't, you know, they don't feel the need to, like, diminish feelings. What do we do? Yeah, how do we get it right? But allow them to still navigate the world as a man as well, because I think that's, you know. Vital. Vital, yeah. I think where I've got to on this, right, is that the idea that I have to toughen my sons up, I have a daughter and two sons.

52:54The world's going to do that for them. You are not, as a father, I'll just talk about fathers. You're not going to go too far in being loving or gentle or allowing them to feel pain or allowing them to be scared or allowing them to cry to the extent where they get out and they don't get a very firm message from the rest of society that that is not okay for boys so you can make your home a place where they can absolutely be whoever they want confident so even for good or bad the world will be toughening them up so I think we can chill on that idea of I need to show you what it is to be a man yeah like that is that that that that's happening and then I just think the kind of a lot of men uh we're not external processes so when my kids ask me how I am I tell them and I tell them when I'm worried about stuff and I tell them when I'm worried about my mates this this work's made me a much better friend I like look after my mates in a different way i'm really worried about my brother he didn't get that job he wanted to get i'm gonna call him yeah it's it's demonstrating how a man can care for other people i think is is a really really good thing yes i'm not sure if i've got the answer for you as mums i don't know what that is

54:26Georgia Dayton: but this is what i'm working yeah and that's a really interesting way to look at it it's like modeling as well as so they've got someone to look to and you're you know you're being a good friend you're talking about how you feel and you're not telling them that they should do this and they should do that you're just doing it and they'll just see yeah yeah and i think as kids get older that's that becomes the main thing right like i mean you've got older kids good luck telling them what to do you've just got to kind of be the thing and demonstrate the thing like rather than instructing the thing I think yeah yeah Alex we've run out of time oh can we do it again yeah that was so cool I think we should if you're up for it we should do a Q &A with Alex yeah let's do that yeah yeah yeah I'd love that okay so we will watch this space guys but Alex thank you for coming on I feel like I've learnt so much me too it's amazing thank you guys thanks for your awesome podcast keep doing what you're doing Alex Trippery everyone I love him so do I and I think it's an episode that you play out loud in your kitchen you download on your partner's phone it's one of those isn't it for sure 100 % and send it to all of your your dad mates as well you know it's not just for your partner it's for your dad mates you know you can talk about it at the school gates when the dads do the drop off and the pick up as well because I feel like every man needs to listen to it they do I think we need to take responsibility that we can't quietly sit in resentment.

56:10We have to be able to share it. And like Alex said, it's not about necessarily being 50-50. It's more like, even if it's 80-20 and you say to them, right, you take the birthday presents and, you know, the bloody school shoes and I'll do the rest of it. It's about being seen and it's about being appreciated.

56:27Georgia Dayton: A hundred percent. And if you're going to take a task on, you do it end to end. Yes. You don't expect someone else to like think about it and tell you what to do. and all of that. That's ultimately what we want to get to. 100%. Massive thank you to Alex. We're going to get him back on actually to do a Q &A. So get ready to send in all your questions. And it'd be really lovely to get some questions from some dads as well. So maybe you could ask your partners too. As always, we'd love you to rate, review, subscribe and please give our podcast a follow. Yeah, and if you've got any feedback on this episode, guests you'd like to hear from, topics you'd like us to cover, drop us a DM on Instagram.

57:02Georgia Dayton: We're an app made by mummers and we'll be back on Friday.

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