Anna McNuff

0:00Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas, the podcast.

1:23I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot. We really have. Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, we're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands. And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review. You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mummers.

1:56But for now, George, should we get into it? Georgia! Hey! I mean, I just want to get straight into it because you've just said you've got massive news. I'm really impatient. Well, I just want to take this moment to give a special shout out to my mum because my mum received an MBE on Saturday in the King's Honours. on his birthday for her services towards, I feel quite emotional, towards charity and education in Kenya. Carol Hardman, MBE. Oh my God. I know. It's massive. How did that happen? I'm just intrigued. What happened? I always see people go, oh, I've got a MBE. And I'm like, how? But talk me through.

2:35What happens? Do you get a letter? Right. What does she get? Obviously, like huge names. Yeah. Tess Daly got one for her services and broadcasting. Claudia Winkleman. I mean, there was some pretty massive waves in there. So about three weeks ago, she got an email from the High Commission. And I was like, it's a scam. Well, like out of the blue. Yeah, out of the blue email saying, we've been trying to contact you. We need to contact you about something. Can you please give us a call back on this number? And I was getting on a plane to go somewhere. And she was like, I said, do not, whatever you do, do not phone that number.

3:08Anyway, so she was like, are you sure it's a scam? And I was like, it's definitely a scam. Anyway, this person was phoning her. and then I was like do not give any details and she was like we've got a phone call today at 12 and I was on the phone to my sister going this is going to be a disaster because bless her she's already been scammed in Kenya once it's happened and I was like I was really really paranoid about it and Catherine was like leave it with me I'll do some investigating so we got the guy's name did she did some investigating and she was like it's not a scam this guy actually works for the the British Embassy High Commission whatever it was anyway so they had a really big conversation And it transpired that somebody that we know had put her up for it because you have to be nominated for it.

3:44And it's taken two years in the making for this to happen. Obviously, loads of information around the charity, who she is as a person, the contribution to the Kenyan educational system. And it all got approved and it got announced on Saturday. Isn't that amazing? And do you know what? I am so proud of her because I finally feel at her age, at this point in her life, she has finally been given the recognition that she really, truly deserves. She's given up 20 years of her life to change young people's lives in Africa. And that, you know, she's done it through through the death of my dad, losing her second partner after that through a car accident, a dog attack, cancer.

4:27you know she has been on this horrific journey highs and lows and now been rewarded i'm just like speechless wow and i got her on heart breakfast did you she came on the show what on the phone on the phone yeah so just want to like make as much noise as possible we still need funding we still need donations we still need people because it's a group you know it's a group effort obviously driven by my mum but what's the charity called the vapingo village fund And the pingovillagefund.org, you can find the website and just go and check it out. It's pretty incredible. Wow. So, yeah. That's amazing.

5:00I mean, I don't really know how to follow that up. What's going on with you? Wash my hair this morning. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. I mean, yeah, I've got no needs to share like that at all. Quite boring, actually. Had a girl's day on Friday with my friends. Oh, you went to Estelle Manor? Yeah, very fancy. Very, very fancy. Anyone famous there? Um, no, but we do. Oh, this is going to make us sound nuts. But okay, I'm going to just say there was some sort of forum on and people were coming in in helicopters. And one of my friends is like, she's not a private detective, but she should be.

5:39So she's like taking pictures of people and image searching them. So we were basically just stalking people. Anyone that works at Estelle Hunter, I'm really sorry. I look at people up like, who are they? I don't know if it's always like that because there is obviously this founders forum going on. There were lots of people there. But yeah, I actually met the founder of Frida Baby. Have you met her before? So I went to meet her because maybe she'll come on the podcast, hopefully. Yeah, fingers crossed. But she basically founded that brand that, you know, this sucks the snot out. Oh my God. Oh, God.

6:15Yeah. The snot suckers. Yeah. Well, she, I think she got, like, the license to it. And now it's a big brand. Like, they're in boots and on a card and all that kind of stuff. And then I bumped into her there. Oh. I know. So that was good. That was really nice. She'd be great to get on the podcast. Yeah, she would be. But she lives in Miami. So that might, well, we'll see how that works. She's got a helicopter, right? We could just go there. And then the next day, Gigi had three parties. Oh, fuck Gigi. A football party, a Taylor Swift party. um oh god when did Gigi's life get more exciting than ours I know seriously three parties well one was the 50th wedding anniversary as my in-laws um but by that time she'd put two chairs together in the corner of the room and like fell asleep classic Gigi bless her she's over it by that point yeah she's like yeah I've been to too many parties and quite frankly this one is shit you look gorgeous you got your trad wife outfit on my trad wife outfit on yeah and we're ready for today's conversation.

7:14Yeah, it's a good one. It's a really good one. I absolutely adored today's guest. Her energy was so high and gorgeous and inviting. I just wanted to jump inside her soul and get snuggled in. So when someone is so, I think she so knows who she is and is so comfortable in herself that it does create an energy and an atmosphere. And it was so funny because at the top of the chat, Zoe talks about how similar we are. And actually, for me, she's not that similar to me. No. But so inspirational. Yeah. Like talking about, you know, schooling system and how, you know, they've decided not to go down that road.

8:02And there's so much to it. The outdoors, nature. The outdoor life. Yeah, adventure. Finding those moments of joy. Yeah. Going travelling, like wild camping. I mean, it's like get outside and let's go and live it. Let's get into it. George, who are we talking to today? We are chatting to Anna McNuff. I can't wait to have this conversation. In fact, we've just been chatting to today's guest for a couple of minutes before we hit the record button. And there's so many topics and so many sort of weird, like coincidences that Georgia and I have in common with today's guest. She is an absolute superhero in our eyes.

8:35Author and adventurer. She is mum to three. it's Anna McNuff. Yay! I'm so stoked to be here. I'm such a fan of the podcast. I feel like I know you guys already. So this is just great. Thank you. How's your morning been? We always like to ask our guests. Blissful. Do you know what? Blissful? Right, because... She hasn't been with her kids. It's not what we want. I have no idea. Because I came and I knew I was going to have to be in London from Gloucester and I thought I'm going to treat myself and come and do a little overnight in a hotel. so I was running out the door at 7 o 'clock last night mother half was dealing with the kids bedtime and I was like, can I get the freedom?

9:12so this morning I've woke up I've drunk a cup of coffee, no one's tried to stick their fingers in it I've walked across London my head is clear I can carry on with one train of thought without being interrupted and that is lovely you look very zen actually I'm just looking at you now, your skin looks fresh you've slept for how many hours? I got this can I say this never happens that that never happens I never get eight hours of uninterrupted sleep so yeah I'm I'm here for it so thank you for that opportunity so obviously gave you a big intro but for those who don't know you do you want to just give us a little bit of background on who you are like what you talk about online and also like what you do day to day yeah so I guess the best way to describe it is I am a very I'm an adventurous spirit and my bio says adventurer but and I've done lots of big long human powered journeys like cycled a bike through every state of america run the length of new zealand with everything on my back all the big stuff but really and now especially because i got three little ones i just love outdoors i love mud i love a bit of rain i just love new places new people i just i love to know what it feels like to be in the world and to like experience it at the max that is how i would describe myself and then i like to write about it and speak about it so you and i are spirit animals yes are we yeah because i absolutely feel this on a visceral level that being outside in nature feeling the elements swimming in the big seas and you know being out in the rain and the sun just i love being close to nature trees plants grass mud i love it i always have done since i was a kid yeah georgia is the yang to my yang I can see the look of fear in your eyes.

10:55I was just about to say, so we did the intro, like we've got so much in common. I was thinking, I mean, I'm here to learn. But no, so I'm not the opposite. I don't like not like nature. I do like nature, but only if there's like a coffee shop or a pizza van or a... I'm down for that. On my runs now, I call it adventure pace and I will run and then I will find a really nice pub with like triple cooked chips to go and stop at. at the end or halfway through I mean I come run on a giant burger like any of it but I'm I'm all about that part too um but I think that's it though isn't it it's about finding the thing that makes you feel calm and peaceful and like the best version and for you obviously if that's not nature great but for me I just feel like my brain is like a rock concert and when I'm in nature it finally quietens down and I can actually hear my own voice and not everything else so Now that you're a mum, because I saw one of your posts, I was kind of going through your Instagram about taking your four year old.

11:55You went, took him on the, I don't know if it was your girl. It was Dartmoor. Yeah, little girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's got like a unisex name. Yeah. Sorry. Oh God, don't worry. It's fine. On her first kind of wild camping trip. Yes. So just, just talk me through how that went. Well, first of all, I'll caveat it with, so I am an adventurer, but it's taken me four years to get, take my daughter out on a wild camp, which and again our social media feeds it depends how you create your feed but my feed is filled with a lot of outdoorsy people who are taking their babies up like 3000 meter mountains and like lovely night of sleep look at the beautiful view and I'm going I've just been woken up every hour and a half with my child who does not sleep I'm staying at home with getting in a routine so it took me about four years to get to the point where I went okay I think I can cope now with taking her out and I've always wanted to and it was a really interesting exercise in because the weather was supposed to be terrible and I kept nearly backing out thinking well it's all right if you just go and sleep out up a tour in Dartmoor in the wind and the rain and it's just you but what about you know there's that sense of responsibility there and I've wild camped loads but before I was a mum and and then I was so I had this sense of responsibility but then as soon as we left um i met a friend in plymouth and as soon as we left plymouth it started raining and the spatters went on the windscreen and i just thought oh no time to pull the ripcord yeah that but i just i didn't say anything and then turned the windscreen wipers on just kept silent and then as we got out the car storm went mommy it's raining and i was oh is it and she said that's gonna sound lovely going pitter patter on our tent and i just thought that was such a lesson in i was worried about that but to her it was great and my friend had two dogs and so she chased the dogs up it was only a mile up to the top of this little tour this little mountain and yeah we just we spent the night there and then hiked back down the morning there was mango covered in chocolate as like the reward and noodle dinner and like a special memory did it give her lots it did she you know it was really interesting without me even saying anything on the way up she kept stopping and saying oh mommy where did we come from and she'd look back at the car park and she'd go whoa that's a really long way she said look how far i've come and that was on her it wasn't me saying look at that you've done that it was her doing it for herself and i thought that's that's really beautiful yeah you know sort of when you became a parent were you worried about how that adventurous life would now sit with being you know now being a mom yeah yes and no i think I was in denial at first because um I don't know about you guys before you had kids but I painted this beautiful fictional world where I was I will take my child on all these adventures it will be brilliant it will be um it'll be exciting it'll be new and then the reality is you don't know what your child's temperament's going to be like you don't know whether they're going to be a sleeper you don't know how you're going to react to being a mum and I think the the change that you go through is it's incredible and it brings up all this stuff that you don't even realize and you have to find the limit of what you can cope with and suddenly actually taking her off on adventures wasn't my first priority it was getting through 24 hours at a time yes and although that felt exhausting and and and I felt very trapped at times I knew that I didn't want to go and push on to adventures just because that's what I felt like I should do because of that's what everyone thought who I was I thought it had to feel like the right time it had to feel like right for me yeah and so we took our time so um so i thought it was going to be one way and then it's just taken us longer to get there and then of course i had twins when my eldest was two i mean let's go again shall we let's go again well this is the thing as well you just do i think you i don't know i was like yeah i think that's i don't know whether it's a thing a society thing but it's like well you're in for it let's go off we go again and it didn't even occur to me that there was a chance i could have twins and so that just the pure logistics we are outnumbered and trying to take three kids on a big adventure so we're basically just now getting to the point where we're actually starting to have these little adventures and it started with a just an overnight up a little mountain with my little girl my oldest i mean you say just an overnight up a little mountain like i i had this idea that we would go around scotland in a camper van oh my god i love this do you remember like i've heard about this yeah and um i don't know what i thought like i think I thought it was going to be a fucking disaster.

16:18Did you hear bagpipes when you were dreaming? I mean, I thought we'd get in this camper van and there would be a coffee shop and a pizza van and all of this. And obviously I quickly realised actually campsites are campsites and they don't really have much there apart from fields. But that was pretty difficult. And we had running water and electricity and Wi-Fi and all of those things. So I don't think it's just camping. Did you do it for five nights? I can't remember. No, we were supposed to do it for five nights. We did it for two. Oh, well done though. But the logistics of that are mind boggling of getting everyone in motion is...

16:54And like you said, like the sleeping arrangements, you think, oh, well, everyone will just sleep. No, they don't. Like they don't. We were literally laying in this tiny little bed in the camper van. My son was up in that roof bit and we're in between, like my daughter wouldn't sleep up there. So me and my husband are literally crammed into less than a single bed really next to the oven and the kettle and I just thought I don't I don't know what's the fun what I'm trying to prove here yeah you spooning the kettle yeah no I know what you mean I think that in a way though I think that naivety is a great thing because I I'm filled with it and I and I think it actually gets you out there and now you have a story to tell yes and no I always say to people like no one's going to tell the story about the time it didn't go to plan that is the most dull story.

17:41Can you imagine someone at a dinner party? Hey, let me just tell you about the times that went perfectly. Get out. Yeah, you're not my person. Yeah, so I think I do exactly the same as you. I put an image in my head and that, but that's what gets you out the door. But I think that's great that you managed a couple of nights. We haven't yet done the camper van thing. Yeah, we'll be right back after this short break.

18:06Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

18:43You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S. offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

19:27welcome back to this episode of made by mommas now where were we i'm just i don't have that in me i'm not like an adventurer i don't seek adrenaline i'm just really not i'm just not that person but equally i don't want to put my kids off being that person so for anyone listening like me how can you get that balance because i want my kids to have these experiences yeah but I don't want to be involved you know I'm going to take them on them if you want them to be involved in the experience yeah you know I think it's about like it's I'm offering the opportunity to them isn't it and like like when I was taking her on that little wild camp holding back all of the assumptions I had in my head of if it rains this is going to be a bad experience because I have 40 years of experience of camping in the cold and wet but trying to hold back from dropping those bags at the door of my daughter and actually going no that's not information she needs in her head at this point she they they are and this is the other thing I realized they are so in the moment all the time which I don't know about you but I spend most of my life trying to get back to being in the moment me too yeah and and I I sometimes find myself taking her out of it or or yeah oversharing my fears and so I think it's about getting to that point of okay there's outdoor space or whatever and not not being like no you have to follow the trail or no we're going this way this is the plan and just but that's hard that's sitting on hands that but what is it about what is it about parenting when you when you have a child you bring a child into the world definitely you know in our in our society where we live in the western world where people go oh oh can't go there that's that's a bit too dangerous or you know you could you what you you travel to af like you go to africa you know my mom's from kenya and we spent my spent my whole childhood there and I remember people sending me messages on Instagram being like gosh I would I would never take my children to Kenya and I'm thinking well why why would you not well what do you do for malaria was the big question that came up and I said well you know my eldest she can take malaria tablets but the younger two when it when the night comes in and the mozzies come out we have to put loads of mosquito spray on them and we make sure they're in longs and we make sure they're under their nets yeah and but all of that noise around it about the danger and we're stepping outside of the box in the Western world that we're supposed to live in frightens a lot of people, but actually it gives these kids this sense of going out and seeing the world.

21:46And I'm not suggesting everyone packs off and goes to Africa, but even just like you said, going for a wild camp or, you know, going up to the highlands in Scotland or, you know, we're so programmed to be living in this four or five star world where it has to look a certain way, but actually what is that life? I don't know. Yeah. And that's how it's not the world, is it? That's how, but I think that's how you learn as well. all the the memories I have and the points where I've grown the most I did this run when I was I turned 30 and I did the run along New Zealand there's a backcountry trail it's like 2 ,000 miles and when people say to me what's your favorite adventure that was it for me because I was so often by myself in the middle of nowhere with no one to give me the answer and it was hideously uncomfortable and I would doubt myself but then I'd come to the end of it and think I did that like no one else did that for me and because I was in nature it felt like there's the problems are simpler as well I think out there you just there's like I need food I need water I need to get myself moving forwards and that in a way is just it's beautiful to solve those problems what was the biggest question that came up for you in those moments of solitude um am I able to do this am I able to do this because I think especially when when you're growing up and I'm from a very high performing family my parents are Olympians I grew up where you could always do better there's always a way to do better but in those moments when you are out on your own on an adventure and there's no one else to solve the problem for you it means you can't ask for help but you also have to just even if you have meltdown you cry you then have to swim down to the bottom of yourself and be like I can I can do this I can find something from within me to get me out of this situation and that that confidence is something you then take back into everyday life I think and it's a it's a beautiful beautiful thing and you can only get that when you put yourself in a situation where you've got to like trust yourself I love that so that's what I love can we teach that to our kids I know I find it so hard because I want to I want to well I'm learning with the twins right so they're two two years five months now and you know what toddlers are like they go around in circles they're trying to clip a buckle shut and then you go over and you're like oh I get just I help you no I'll do it and then you're like okay whoa like okay I'll let you do it again it's like that it's like sorry poke the bear and then you let them do it and then they get frustrated because they can't do it and they keep going around and around and it is agonizing to watch but I think I'm realizing I have to I have to just watch I have to let them go through that frustration whereas I think if we're ambitious people we want it we might give them two minutes and then we'll do it or we'll help them do it and I'm really trying to just let them be okay with being uncomfortable and frustrated and that is okay you know that's okay and i might commentate on it and say you're frustrated you know i frustrated my little boy says oh my gosh i frustrated mommy i'm like that's great it's okay like it's okay but you're letting them try and figure it out themselves yeah because because cotton cotton wool kids let's talk about or cotton wool society where actually you know are we doing our kids a disservice by doing everything for them yeah sorting everything for them making sure you know classic case you know kit's got itchy eyes can you come and give something to the school just then so it's okay is there a sink can he just splash his eyes with water but like i can't solve that problem so someone spray him yeah has anyone got a sprayer you know um are we are we trying to do too much for them because the sounds of things that you're saying you're you're allowing your kids and letting your children figure it out by themselves oh don't get me wrong at dinner time I mean I've done 50 ,000 squats during dinner time because I'm in my chair drink mummy up to the kitchen backwards and forwards and then I catch myself and I go hang on even if I can get it for them I will go I'm now trying to go I'm having my coffee when I finish my coffee yeah I can get that for you but they're not they're not going to die if I don't get them whatever the ketchup or the mustard or whatever it is so I'm trying to get better but don't get me wrong I get caught into it and I'm backwards and forwards and then I realized I'm not sitting down my kids eating dinner because I'm in the kitchen trying to get whatever anyone wants and that's that's not what I want to be so I'm I'm I'm a work in progress I think that's all we can all be in it yeah so you work with girl guys you're wearing your brownies jumping out tell us a little bit about how you get involved my daughter's at rainbows yeah um is she yeah I love it were you were you a rainbow I was a brownie yeah yeah yeah and I oh my god and I think what is happening none of this it's such a weird name isn't it yeah no so and i specifically got her into rainbows because i'm not you know i wouldn't know how to make a fire outside with her i wouldn't and i think that would i just thought that would give her the opportunity to try those things and then if she likes them then she's had a taste and we can you know can you make a fire inside i can make a fire inside she's in case i ever get into like a cold pump situation with george so yeah tell us a little bit about how you got involved why you got involved well yeah i was a I was a rainbow, a brownie and a guide when I was a, when I was a kid and it, the, it happened at the local church hall opposite my school.

26:50And I think that's a lot of memories for a lot of us, you know, not, obviously not you, but that, yeah, you get it. You're learning again, George was learning about the outdoors. Um, and so I just remember just, it was a place where there's all this stuff going on at school, but girl guiding was somewhere where I could go and just be myself and get, get away from the stuff that was going on at school. Yes. There were my, lots of my school friends there as well but also school friends from other groups that i would then connect with on the girl guiding and we just i had my first camping experience like my parents are olympians they didn't take us we we did the odd bit of camping but they're not adventurous outdoorsy people olympians yeah um rowers rowers and moscow olympics both of them yeah i've got really long arms out of the deal your arms are long i know it's handy need some beans off the shelf yeah really handy i've not got long arms and i know what a hindrance that is got it um so i had i remember i mean remember my first camping experience and just that that feeling of being allowed to be myself i remember it was my first leadership experience as well because i was in charge i was a little six or anything they were called back then and i got little stripes on my sash and and i just love the idea my my brain is very much like if there's something that interests me like if my head turns in that direction I have to follow it like I'll go oh what's that and I will follow it until I'm I'm bored or I've learned everything I want to learn and I felt like I really got that from girl guiding if I wanted to I think at the time I learned chess there was um agility was one of my favorite badges we did there was a hostess badge which is hostess it's it's basically about how to when people come come and visit you how to have a party oh my god it's like I've done that course basically you've done it you get a load of badges already and that badge actually has is coming back as a it's like celebrations badge so it's coming back in a modern form because I just think that stuff's great and and so that's what I loved about it it let me follow my curiosity and be myself and I feel like that we do that as a kid and then a lot of our adult life is spent trying or feeling a bit boxed in and trying to work out where do I fit and then you come out in your midlife and you're like I don't fit anywhere I am like weird in so many ways and that's okay I can like I can't it can be more than one thing I don't have to be this is my job this is me I can be mum I can be a writer I can be an artist I can be a sporty I can yeah you don't have to fit into one box it's that is so true and I find with um at rainbows Gigi going it's like stuff she doesn't learn at school yeah so it's like you know like all the things you wish they had time to learn at school I guess yeah and they learn it they were just like silly stuff like growing you know growing plants or you know making a fairy garden from like stuff outside or i don't know baking biscuits like there's so much variety it's not like just being outdoors it's like all the little things that in my mind i thought i would have time to teach her but i don't you can't you do so much anyway it's yeah it's not like it's it's just yeah it's a nice little group of friends it is it's like there's a bit more time there to like explore that but also i got back involved because i think it was eight years ago i was giving a talk um at queen's guide awards and that's when i started having the chat about they'd redone the badge program and there were all these badges like activism and coding and i don't know if you've ever seen a girl guiding advocate interviewed on the news but they are they are fierce they are incredible they are the voice they have as a young woman and i i went i i want to help that because yeah you know i don't know like you you've got very strong voices but as in i for me it took me a long time to actually feel like i i can take up space i can say what i believe and and that is but it's very worthy and they're learning that as young girls i mean i think that's amazing and then i think the future is just rocking for the world oh i love that and also the outdoor stuff i mean you know i don't know if you've watched um i think it was emma willis and and matt they did about the smartphone childhood oh i haven't watched that Right.

30:52Well, essentially, you know, the our young people are on their phones and not outside and not being active. And the mental health is really suffering, as we all know. I'm not saying anything new here. But I imagine you yourself growing up and being so outdoorsy and being so sporty. I mean, how has your mental health been and how have you coped with it as an adult? And has it has it always been good? Because you seem like such a positive person. Oh, no, I don't. I mean, I think as a as a all the feels person, I don't mean by saying all the feels. right and I mean high highs low lows and I think motherhood was definitely the biggest challenge in the in the lows I struggled a lot in after the twins were born so I think but I'm now getting back to kind of my baseline and my default which is the is that I'm content and happy and I am content and happy with very little you know I like I don't need a lot of things we we did a trip in January where we went to went hopping around the Cape Verde islands for a month with all three of the kids oh wow yeah it was it was awesome thought it was gonna be a disaster but your eldest not started school no she's not and actually oh this is a whole other conversation when we're not doing the school oh I can't wait oh my god um uh yeah but I am so I guess I my my mental health didn't I think it's been good but it has been up and down and I think that's the hardest thing is when you're in the downs you think you you you wonder if you're ever going to come back to you know I I feel like there's a very bright spark.

32:21And it's like that fire gets a little bit dampened and lost. But then you realise it's not. It's just covered. And you just need to work out what it is to take all the layers off and let yourself come out. And that's why I love adventure, I know. And running. I know you talked about getting into running. I quite like running. Do your 5Ks and you don't care about time. That's me too. I just want to be my head going, listen to a podcast. Like that is good for my mental health. Barefoot running. Barefoot running, yes. Do you do it? I don't do as much now as I used to, but I run in minimalist shoes, so there's no support in them or anything.

32:55What are the benefits to barefoot running? Well, being completely barefoot is about being very grounded, being very connected to nature. It's a bit like when you're close to the sea. You know, there's ions and all this stuff it does to your body. My husband stands in the grass every morning with bare feet and has 10 minutes looking up at the sun. Yeah, sun salutations. Every morning. Yeah. Yeah. I think it puts you in the moment. I mean, I take the piss. Hey, that's great. As long as you've got a routine. I mean, I don't know what he's doing for him. If it's something you're doing together, it's a shared experience.

33:28It's not together. She's inside laughing. That's what I mean, though. You're in there. You're in the moment. Yeah. No, I think the funny thing is, I'm not a barefoot evangelist. So I think after I did, I ran a 2 ,300 miles bare feet. And then again, this is... Sorry, what? I know. I know I ran from the Shetland Islands to London but I ran a very wiggly line because I was visiting girl guiding units along the way talking to girls about doing things that are just beyond what they think is possible basically was the theme of my talks and you had no shoes on I had no shoes on for the whole time it was about five and a half months and it was the hardest thing I've ever done but and so again it goes so hang on you had no shoes on for five and a half months so if you went to the supermarket you just run with no shoes out.

34:16Do you know what, you get thrown out of supermarkets? You have no shoes out of it. Because of health and safety. Yeah. You get thrown out. But then I would sometimes, I'd get a bit bold and I'd go, sorry, explain to me the health and safety policy. And then one of them muttered something about dropping a pint of milk on my feet. But I don't know. It was just, but again, it was really interesting because if you go to New Zealand or Australia, lots of people, or Kenya, people walk around bare feet. It's not weird. But yet in our world, it's so crazy and bonkers that you would run in bare feet. But in loads of parts of the world, it's normal so I just the reason I did it was I was doing this long journey I was talking to girls about doing things that are uncomfortable and I thought if I do a run in trainers I'd already done a run in trainers by this point so I thought I have to be walking the walk you know I've got to be standing in front of them going I might I might fail this this could be very embarrassing this could be a very public failure but I'm here and I'm trying um how are your feet my feet are like panther paws they're great yeah although this is basically about 10 days after i finished or like the bottom just came off like a snake skin oh my god you shudder oh the image you can have that one for free yeah yeah so so it's like but that but i think what i learned is bodies are amazing women's bodies especially i mean what we do and i think that was the thing it was a it was just an experiment it was yeah challenging yourself yeah and and i didn't make the full distance I was supposed to I actually fell shy of it but it was like shot from the stars landed on the moon had an amazing adventure um talked to loads of young women along the way and girl guiding units and yeah you can tell you can tell that that really giving young women girls a voice is your body of your life work yes I know that that for you is everything isn't it I think yeah and I think it's because I it's I guess maybe we're maybe we're talking to ourselves when we're trying to do that do you know what I mean you're trying to go back to your younger self and hold your hand and be like because I was an inspiring Olympian at one point I was trying to make it to the Olympics I ended up in rowing doing and I was I think blindly almost just following what my parents did and going that that is what success looks like I have to do that to be successful and it was the best thing that I didn't make it I got I didn't make the Olympic team I made it into the I used to row for Britain but I didn't make the Olympics but actually what that led me to is finding me and finding that I don't like going fast I don't like knowing what my vo2 max is or any of that stuff I just want to stop at the pub and taste the enjoyment out you enjoy it haven't you yeah and that's it and I want to just experience the world and you can't do that really quickly you have to actually stop and chat to people and learn about their nana and have blueberry pancakes with them yeah you know all the good stuff love people's nanas love nanas we'll be right back after this short break.

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38:31Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? We just touched on school. Yes. And you said you don't think that's what you're going to do. No. We are so intrigued about this new homeschooling sort of community, but it's not that new. People have been doing it forever. Yeah. But I just think at the moment, there seems to be a lot more talk around it. I've noticed that. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to us about your decisions, the thought process. Oh, yeah. First of all, I have zero answers to how this works. I have no idea. As in, like, I don't know what I'm doing. But all I know is because we've got to this point now where the twins are two and a half, Storm is four and a half, our eldest.

39:09And I think it was going around and looking at schools. I just started to think, I don't know, I was having a bit of a physical reaction looking around the schools, which is weird. I've sort of felt a bit like, and then I was trying to process and go, is that just my stuff? Like, as in, is that what I experienced? and I in many many ways had a fantastic education experience I would say I really enjoyed school but I do think there is another option and the way me and my partner work we both work for ourselves we both creative people we get inspired by adventure and the last five years is the longest we've been in one place so since we discovered that love and travel and adventure so we just all those things kind of collided and we went well what would if we actually sat down one evening we were in cape verde we sat down we got a pina colada from bar sat on the terrace and i said jay let's get a blank page and let's take away all of what life should look like if we were to fill this blank page with what we would want life to look like what would it be oh my god my heart has just gone i just yeah i've got this feeling in my stomach yeah it's a beautiful one by the it's not a bad thing.

40:18It's not going to be sick. No, no, no. Yeah, I feel like I want to be sick. What an incredible, amazing exercise to do with your partner. Yeah, because it's so hard because straight away what comes in are all the things you should do or the way you live now. And the things we put on there was not much stuff, to be seeing new places, connection to nature, less time on screens. And then we looked at that and we said, well, there's lots of things we could change about our current life to do that. and for us because we're self-employed it I don't know the answer to all of it but it is possible there's there is a sliver of possibilities there so what would we need to then do to put that in motion so yeah basically our house is on the market we're we're planning to just do a nomad life basically and just a bit off grid a bit not I'm not necessarily off grid I mean I hope we'll spend some time off grid but just be do slow travel of like three to six months around the world and there are like you said it there's a movement going on and there are all these world schooling communities where you can pop up and a bit like I was saying about all the girl guiding interest baddest you can just let your kids go oh they're interested in learning how to cook in Thailand like great it's taken to some Thai cooking classes or they're interested in that or but yet there's a way to keep up maths and English and all of that yeah I don't want to do that there's no rush for maths and English is there like I think we think yeah my math is terrible terrible at math love english yeah we think because i was talking about homeschooling with with my husband i mean we're not doing it but yeah we watched adolescence and then basically we're like we don't want our kids to go to school anymore we want to keep them at home but we fell into the thing of like oh well what we'll do is we'll just hire a teacher to come and teach and then we were like i think we're missing the point of homeschooling because Because I think so many people look at homeschooling as like, oh, well, they just do their school day but are home.

42:15It's not that for so many people, is it? For so many people, it's like you said, you just teach them life. Yeah, it's like lots of people call it home education rather than homeschooling. Because I think there is a misconception you try and replicate it and be a teacher. Yeah. But I think as long as you've got the basics covered, then it just, and if you think about the one-to-one time they get in a classroom anyway, it's probably like 10 minutes out of the day. So then I'm there giving them one-to-one or one-to-three. And actually, then you only need to probably do an hour or two of sitting down.

42:43The rest of it, learning. Who can remember anything about school in the actual lessons? I'm asking for a friend. I remember handwriting practice. You remember how long? Do you? I don't remember. I remember handwriting practice. Handwriting practice, yeah. But I do remember in secondary school feeling very frustrated about why I was learning certain things that I didn't feel were of interest to me. I mean I remember age 15 shutting the door grunge music on lights out crying my eyes out because I just I wasn't interested in a lot of it and yet I was having you know I was doing it Bunsen burners?

43:16Yeah yeah Bunsen burners Never fucking use one again Periodic table What on earth? I use the periodic table because I say motherhood is a gas and it expands to take up whatever space we have available that is how I use the periodic table You know fractions I mean okay look any maths professors out there I know these are key things No, I get that as well. My son loves maths. He's doing algebra and things like that right now, which is great for him. But I do sit back and think, I mean, there's a calculator. AI is coming. I mean, great for you, but you're getting some fun out of this. Don't know how.

43:54Can you understand it? No, no, no, no, no. Okay, good for you. Not at all. No, definitely. I have no idea. But I do, you know, you sort of sit there and think, Are you wasting like a lot of time on something that are you ever going to use? Because I'm sure that even people who work in like finance or economics, they're still using calculators. Yeah. And they talk to me. It's not like you go in there like, right, you can't use one. I don't know. I don't know. It brings up quite a lot of stuff for me around, you know, thinking about my school days and remembering the great bits, the things that I was really interested in and growing in those spaces.

44:31but then also just feeling super inadequate in others maths the sciences you know I could go on geography yeah um and and but never getting that never getting that feeling from the people that were teaching me that I was as important or doing as good a job as you know the a star student that was sitting next to me yeah I found it so frustrating because of a mark yeah I nearly gave up I mean I gave up writing in English because I got a D at AS level and I wanted to be an author and yet I gave it up for 15 years because I said well that D says I'm yeah yeah I went off on one about Chaucer's Wife of Bath in an essay like I'd gone off too far off piece and um and so actually that that mark put me off my life course but um yeah and and that's it's mixed feelings because I think it is I think school is it's just one of the options I think that's the thing it's not that it's like yeah I'm not anti-school I'm just like for our our situation there is another opportunity and there's another way and there's let's go for it let's go for it create your own life and that's what you're doing yeah which is amazing i mean we would love to do that well i just so you're doing it though you're doing it you're doing your there's alchemy going on but we're not going to be in all the amazing brilliant places but we'll be sitting in our podcast studio we'll be we'll be video timing you in from bali yes i'll tell you what though i promise and this is the thing I've always promised to share the ugly and rough bits as well because that I know that's coming as well it's not gonna all be like yeah look at the big kids on the beach so happy it's too hot to be on the beach at this time of day you know it's gonna be all of that as well chaos and give us your top tips um or your brilliant piece of advice that you would give a new parent from what you've kind of learned over the years oh I would say the first thing is brace brace brace because it is the biggest transition you will ever go through as as a as a woman as a father I think your sense of self your body your friendships all of it massively changed I think that's the first thing and to understand when you're in it that that is normal I think that's and that's part of the process and then the second thing I think is just to tell yourself you're doing a great job yeah because I feel like that we should tell ourselves on the daily that we are the best people to mother our children and and i feel like we're almost looking for other people to tell us that but we wouldn't believe in them even if they did so i feel like we just need to tell ourselves that every day

47:04i know you said you don't really like having a lot of stuff yes but what um what products do you swear by or things you swear by like you know like you're wearing the shoes that you said are there's not much support just give us a few yeah these are Vivo barefoot shoes I love these there are loads of minimalist brands out there now but I love these because they last a really long time I wear them to death until they get holes in the side really um definitely my barefoot shoes I love a good vintage jumper I just love I mean this one but also I'm always on like retro 80s clothing sites trying to find that fleece from the 80s it's got all the funky patterns on it I love that just that and a pair of black leggings in the winter time it's like my happy place and they last as well and I like when you get them they kind of smell a bit musty at first someone's really worn it so I love that and as far as adventures go I've got this little, this is really geeky but I've got this little cooker and it's called a jet boil and it's this big and it boils water in 90 seconds and it's made of titanium and I just take that and you can just make yourself coffee or noodles or whatever at the end of a long day wherever you are what about a tent a tent yes is there a really great easy tent to buy if you're a beginner never buy it you know what in my mind we're gonna camp in the garden as a start we're gonna do that are you yeah i think that we'll we'll give that a go so yeah what what are we looking for because honestly i would not have any idea i would say if you're first if you're new into camping outdoors just don't spend much money the tent I slept up the top of a dartmoor with I think it was 60 quid it was a it was a van go tent um it even had like a little blackout lining because it was the summertime so I thought let's help but it's it was 60 quid and that tent will do me and a child so I would say don't spend the earth on on the first bit and just and don't obsess about it as well I think we get really obsessed about when you're fearful I don't know about you but before I went to cycling in South America I was like what if I haven't packed the right socks it was not about the socks yeah so so just about being on a bike for two weeks exactly it's not so i think just just start somewhere get even if you can get second hand tent even better like patch it up there's loads of second hand there's there's um loads of outdoor gear like hire places now as well online you can just hire something for a weekend brilliant so that's great and you just hand it back afterwards yeah and smelly with an earwig in it yeah unwashed yeah all i can say is i camped in the garden with my son the other night my sister's garden and it's the first morning for six months that i haven't woken up with heart palpitations really wow i genuinely mean that i felt the best i have felt for half a year that's amazing they'd completely gone yeah that is and my little boy was there just looking at me holding my hand and it was the cutest and rain was coming down and it was actually one of those really beautiful moments but i did feel so well off the back of a night sleep in a tent and i slept really well that is amazing so let's get our tents in the garden guys did you have a comfortable set like did you go like pillow yeah yeah double mattress that's the I think there's this misconception as well that you have to go light or whatever.

50:07If you want to have drag your mattress or whatever, do it. Like, great. Being outdoors is better. Oh, that's lovely. So, yeah. Maybe camping will be big for us in 2022. Yeah. Who knows? Yeah, I'll give it a go. Watch this face, guys. We'll make you games, Phil. We'll see. Anna, thank you so much for coming on. Just quickly, where can people buy your books? Oh, just Google Anna McNuff or search Restless Mama and you will find me. Okay. You're an absolute legend. Thank you so much. Anna McNuff everyone. Inspiring a nation to get outside and go and see the world. And also even if you're not a big adventurer, it's like doing those small things to find that.

50:47Because there is going to be adventure in everybody. You can find that little bit that you enjoy. And I think, yeah, like she said, you don't have to do everything. It could just be one night. It could be camping in the garden. There's so many things that you can do that feel like sort of unachievable when you've got young kids. But actually, you've got to like forget about the weather and forget about all of this and just focus on that one thing. Yeah, it gives so much. It gives so much to the kids as well. Yeah, definitely. Thank you so much to Anna. And as always, thank you to you guys for listening to today's podcast.

51:20As always, we'd love you to rate, review, subscribe and please give our podcast a follow. Yeah, and if you've got any feedback on this episode or any guests you'd like to hear from, drop us a DM on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mamas and we'll be back on Friday. Thank you.