Ashley James On The Double-Standards Women Face Today

0:28Zoe and Georgia will be here in just a moment with Made by Mummers. know you're born on your podcast app and hit follow so new episodes land straight in your feed. Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas the podcast. I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot. We really have. Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, We're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands.

1:04And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review. You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mummers. But for now, George, should we get into it? Happy Pancake Day! Happy Pancake Day! I don't know. I mean, is it usually in half term? I don't think it is, is it? It's not. No, because I always remember because they mentioned it at school and then I'm like, oh, Badou Van Gates for dinner. When this goes out, I'll be skiing so I can get some lovely French man to make us crepes. I was going to say, you probably will be in Pan Gates. I'll also be in France, but probably using Mickey Mouse Shaped.

1:41Oh my God, yeah, of course you've got your Disney trip. I have indeed. Dance mom. Dance mom. In fact, actually today I'm taking Gigi into Paris and we're going to Gigi's restaurant. ah that's going to be so lovely that is what we're doing today well we've listen we hope you guys are surviving half term and we thought we would bring you some really amazing um podcast content for you today um to uplift you inspire you uh make sure that we continue kind of delivering the message to our girls and boys um and today somebody who speaks so passionately in this space around the patriarchy um you know what what's essentially we're trying to unprogram ourselves from thinking from childhood as girls she's a force right we've had her on the podcast before she's amazing yeah third time on the podcast and yeah just echoing what I said we always want to you know challenge how we think as well you know we think that we've really evolved and then stuff that she mentions comes up and it does make you question yourself and I really love a podcast that you go away and you think about after and you think what you can do.

2:45And that's definitely how this made me feel. Yeah, me too. She's just written her brand new book, which is out now. Who are we talking to today? We're chatting to Ashley James. Joining us on the podcast today. I cannot wait for this conversation. A mate, first and foremost, a mother. She is an author. Her new book, actually, when this podcast goes out, the book will be out. It's called Bimbo. She is a voice for women. She's a broadcaster she never bloody stops it's ashley james i thought you're gonna say she never shuts up but that's handy for a podcast so if you could bring that that would be brilliant she never shuts up she never shuts up ashley how are you welcome i'm really good how are you publication week i know there it is yeah i know it's surreal um have you guys written a book before no no we tried yeah we did try it didn't work i don't know if we've got it any publishers listening we've got better since then.

3:40It's just like this overwhelming thing that you write this book and you know it's going to come out into the world but then once all the press start talking about it in a slightly out of context I don't know it's just very overwhelming and ultimately I wrote this book because it's the book I wish I had when I was in my teens it's the book I wish I had when I was single and going through the kind of feeling like a failure with all the kind of outdated expectations placed upon you and it's the book I wish I had as a new mum and hopefully my daughter will one day read it and not feel the need to shrink herself because I think what I realized was that we all are made to shrink ourselves universally as women through the kind of conditioning and outdated expectations that are placed upon us so this is a book that will hopefully help people find their voice and if it burns the patriarchy even better take us back to teenage Ashley and why you think she should have read this or would have had this this would have been useful to her I think when I was a teenager oh I feel like I probably I don't want to speak for all all women and girls but as a teenager it was the first time that I really really noticed double standards and a different set of rules placed on boys and girls and I say this as a boy mum and I think you know a lot of the rules that are set up for boys are also very harmful and also prevent them from being the best version and most authentic versions of themselves but in turn that often harms women and girls um and I I went to an all-boys school where there were 37 girls and over 500 boys and it was an all-boys rugby school up until the point that we started I started at 14 and it was this real masculine like if you think toxic masculinity that it was like this all-male environment and the teachers were obviously so desperate for it to be a success because so many people who were part of the school or who used to go to school were so against the fact that girls were going there and they'd obviously agonized over making at success and their mantra was very much let's punish the girls to make sure nothing happens because boys will be boys so we don't want any teen pregnancies therefore let's put everything onto the to the girls and I remember just feeling like this is really unfair and at one point I remember saying to someone I may as well be a massive slag for how you treat me like I feel like I'm not doing anything wrong but I may as well be because I'm being treated the same way but why is it that boys get to be like sexually liberated or explore themselves whereas we are shamed no matter what we do because and this is like the kind of premise of bimbo it's like all the different labels that are given to us but you can't beat the label because you're either a slut or frigid and so it's like well how am I meant to like tightrope this really narrow line where I am a good woman or a good girl because I think that's what most of us really are conditioned to want to be and it's like I don't understand like if I'm not a slag I'm from like frumpy frigid like all of these words so yeah my boobs are too big I don't have big enough boobs my ass is too big I've got no ass at all.

7:08And I also had really big boobs. I had really big boobs. I was a 30 double G. And again, I remember saying to some of the girls, I was like, I just wish I had like small boobs. And they were like, you're just doing that. Like, of course you want big boobs. And I was like, no, I just want to like wear a vest top. And I tell the story in bimbo, but I even had a male teacher say to me and my friend when we were 15, oh yeah, I just went for lunch with the boys and we've come up with a new game. We decided that we're going to do mud wrestling and we're going to slide you and your friend in the mud naked and see who can go the furthest.

7:39The teacher said that. The teacher said that and we were 15. Oh, my God. That was like the environment. And obviously rather than shutting down that kind of conversation around the boys or there's other stories. I remember a guy pulled a moony, which is when you pull your pants down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so one of the girls flashed her Tweety Pie bra. I remember it specifically because I loved those licenta bras and I couldn't fit in them because they didn't do like a double D plus. So I was in like my granny M &S bras. Shout out to M &S. Yeah, we just did as well. We love M &S. They are great.

8:11But you know what I mean? When you're 14, that's not the kind of bra that you want to be in. And yeah, we were told like boys can get away with that. You have to learn to be a lady and that is not an appropriate way to respond as a lady. So I think it was all very confusing and it was also the year that Christina Aguilera's stripped album came out. I remember that song can't hold us down. I remember thinking, wow, it's happening. Like people are starting to speak up and we're going to be able to be equal and not have to deal with all this like shame and set of rules. And little did I know that actually we're still talking about the same thing.

8:47And actually there was like, there's been like feminist music for as long as we know, like 60s, 80s. And so it kind of just feels like we go around in circles, but it means I think that so many amazing young girls like are shrunk and have their confidence stripped away from them or they get bullied and it just shouldn't be like that. Were your friends on the same page as you when you're at school like as in you could see that like you could see that this was unfair and you said you could see it and you felt unfair but I wonder if others couldn't and they just thought that that was just how it is.

9:22No I think we all felt like it was unfair but I was probably the one that um was like always very vocal I remember my friend who flashed her twitty pie bra I was like enraged for her and so I was always like that's not fair that's not what happened because I just hated yeah my friends taking the hit and our school also did really weird things I don't even think I remembered to put this in the book or maybe I did but they had this um thing called dekegging oh yeah and so yeah we are you saying yeah because you know about it you had to deal with it so basically we could be coming back from hockey and the boys usually the first 15 rugby teams so you know like the biggest rugby-esque boys who are much older than you they would basically pick a girl and they would basically charge at them and try and pull their pants down that's called dekegging but if we screamed or laughed because sometimes you laugh in like awkwardness we'd get in trouble because the teachers would be like stop seeking attention and I remember like one time being on my period so I must have been like 15 16 I was on my period and I also like hadn't shaved which when you're like 40 like 15 16 was like the worst thing ever and I remember thinking oh my god if they pull my pants down there like what if my tampon string or my pad is showing and like I haven't shaved and I just remember like the fear of like I have to try and run and then being in the recovery position trying to like cling on to my tracksuit bottoms as they would try to like get them down.

10:50And it was just this like, but as an adult, we can look back and be like, that is absolutely outrageous. And I'd be mortified if my son ever thought that was an appropriate way to behave to women. But again, those boys were also all teenagers. They were allowed to do that. And nobody ever sat them down and said, you cannot do that. And I like to think that times have changed. But I also think when we look at all the different like pressures, in some ways I feel like, has it has it got better or has it got worse because now we have like more easily accessible access to violent porn and we have like the likes of Andrew Chait and the Manosphere and we have like access to social media like I think you know in my day back in back in my day in the olden days yeah we'd still have to call the parents phone so I feel like at least the parents sort of knew who people were speaking to and now you can't control it as well I remember vividly I was at a prep school in Kent and I remember vividly and it happened with my sister where she had been we were allowed like we were at boarding school we were allowed to watch telly until like nine o 'clock and I remember watching her and she was with this boy um and they were like holding hands and then they started kissing it was very innocent they were like 13 years old or whatever anyway she'd written her diary that she'd met this boy and the matron went into her room and stole her diary and read it and called my parents called them in and was like you know Catherine's been doing something that she shouldn't have been doing at school and they got my mum it was like the I remember vividly feeling like so proud of the fact that I had a mother who went in there and was like how outrageous that this person had gone in and stolen my sister's diary and was trying to call my sister because my sister was also in there nothing happened to that boy my sister very nearly got suspended for her behavior at school and that I think in a nutshell is what we are trying to break the conditioning that we have been force-fed like you said that girls should behave in this way and boys lads boys lads lads that whole lad laddie thing it makes me it makes me want to be sick I hate it you know what even this so my son is five now which is crazy because you were the first I spoke to after giving birth and I was still in like everything's amazing and I can't believe how great it is but he um had numbers day on Friday which was like a charity day and they had they got to wear their own clothes and go in wearing numbers and I really last minute because that is literally me decided I'm not just gonna do a shop bought number thing um because he loves numbers and he loves maths so I decided to do this big five on a t-shirt and then I put all the sums around it so like four plus one four plus one equals two plus three equals um and I did the the five in like rainbow color so like really you know 10 out of 10 for me with my craft skills.

13:34Tommy was like, I feel like you're back in a school project yourself because I was sat there all night. So I did this like rainbow thing and then I stuck glitter on it and I stuck all these like random things on it. And he was really excited and I knew he would be and he loved it and he went into school. And on Friday night, he came back and I said, did everyone love your t-shirt? He said, only the girls loved it. And I was like, what do you mean only the girls loved it? And he was like, oh, the boys actually were given time out because they you said that rainbows aren't for rainbows and glitters not for boys and I was like they're five who says rainbow and glitter isn't for boys where's that come from because that's what I always think I'm like who like where is where are they getting that where does that come from Tommy was trying to rationalize it to me being like oh but you know a lot of them have older siblings I think yeah but where do the older siblings learn it and obviously none of these children are bad they're all just kids and it could just as easily have been yeah yeah sure but I was also like it comes from I think and i see it so many times that so many dads don't want their kids to play with girly things whether it's a push chair and a doll but it's like who says they're girly things like can't they model fatherhood well i was going to say you see men walking down the road pushing a buggy don't you but it all stems this is like there's so much of this in bimbo as well of like the conditioning in girlhood that we are taught that and doing anything like a girl is less than like and you run like a girl that you run like a girl you throw like a girl so for boys their worst fear as being like a girl and I don't know whether it's like obviously misogynistic or is it homophobic or do you know what I mean it's like that double layer of like well why is it I want to teach Alf to be really proud of like anything that he does whether it's considered like feminine masculine yeah like because also I don't want I don't want him to get bullied but I also don't want to be his first bully like if he really loves pink purple dancing anything that's considered girly why can't he love those things because you can't bully like yeah you don't want to make them feel I want him to decide what he likes like I always say I'll never push anything on him like the day that he decides that pink's not his favorite color anymore will be a sad day for me because it's my favorite color but like you know I just wish that we didn't put so much conditioning on them so young but you know what it's not so I really wanted to gauge your thoughts on this because I knew this would come up today and um you know Georgia and I both married to ex-sportsman who are conditioned probably to times a thousand in their upbringing on how to behave as men and what a man looks like and especially you know a footballer and a rugby player and I wanted to before this conversation speak to Dozer about you know what his how he really wants Kit to be and his attributes and first thing came up strong you know brave tough defend himself you know and I said okay well what about like let's communicate let's share our emotion because one thing that it struggles with his sharing and he said yeah but I just think that really takes away from like what a man is and I just my heart everything just sunk I felt so oh my gosh I love you I'm married to you but please can we just try and change the narrative slightly we are fighting against it not just from like the real misogynists because he's not a misogynist but actually his conditioning says that that is not how he is supposed to behave and also you know like so many athletes especially when they they leave professional sport they really struggle with their mental health and yet they can't connect the dots and it's like if they're teaching the next generation to almost man up or be tough and like subconsciously teaching them that being openly emotional is not considered manly then we're kind of projecting that onto the next generation and also look at like nearly everyone in heterosexual relationships we're so bored of doing everything and being that kind of like anchor in terms of like the emotional stuff, but also the domestic labor in the house.

17:22But it's like, but then we also need men to show that it is still manly to do those traditionally feminine things. Because I feel like otherwise by the next generation, we're all going to be in communes. I mean, I would quite like that. No, but it is interesting because actually we were having this conversation last week about would we you know give our sons actively a dress or a Barbie or whatever now I have not grown up or been brought up to think this is a girl thing this is a boy thing at all and I hadn't ever questioned myself until this came up the other week because I look back at when Axel was younger and if we'd have been in the toy shop and he'd have picked up a Barbie I don't think I would have bought it for him but I don't know why I don't know why but I when I looked back I thought what would that be would that have just been because I thought in my mind oh you don't really like Barbies and that would be a waste and you know what it's like when they go into a toy shop and they just pick up a million things was it that or was it your social conditioning yeah maybe it was I don't know and I think now I think oh I never I don't know if I gave him the opportunity to play with those I don't know I'm not sure like I don't know he does like stereotypically boy things now but then he gets called a girl all the time because of his because of his hair he doesn't bother him so we do have those conversations now as in I say to him does it bother you when someone says it happens like I swear every day oh your girls are so lovely and then I used to correct them and now I don't because I think whatever it really doesn't like whatever and I go so does that bother you and he says no like great and I think okay well that's good but I do think so many of us have probably done those things without realizing and I probably like I feel like we all get social condition I think I probably started to unpick so much of it when I was single for six years because I felt like that was such a big chapter where I was like fighting against the outdated expectations and there was the first few years of being single I I felt like I was a failure.

19:33And then when I started to really like love my life and people were like, are you still single? Or here's like my creepy mate that I'll put you on the same table with as my wedding. Because obviously it'd be better to be with anyone than be by yourself. And I think that's when I started to unpick it all. But do you know, I was really proud of Tommy because when Alf mentioned that he was teased, Tommy found all these pictures of him when he was younger in like with a pink bike. And he said to him, look, this was daddy. Daddy loves pink. And Tommy's, you know, he does like high rocks. He's very presents as like this very alpha masculine guy, but he also does, has always like tried to speak up and do his bit.

20:10And he did struggle at first because he was like, oh, I just feel like you're projecting onto him. Like, and I was like, I'm not, it's not like I was like, take this, take this doll, push this cram. I was like, I just do whatever he wants. And I think he's got his head around it. but he said okay over the weekend we're gonna make daddy a t-shirt and I'll wear it to the school gates on Monday so that's what he did today and I feel like it's all that stuff that shows Alf that ultimately like be who you want to be yeah but it's hard not to like so um a lot of his mates play rugby on the weekend I mean it's only like five year old rugby but I said to Alf um loads of your friends do rugby on Sundays do you want to go and he was like can I wear my Elsa dress and I was like oh I feel like if I let you turn up in an Elsa dress I also don't want him right like I don't want to put him in a situation where he might then get teased or bullied but then also I want it I want to normalize that what yeah why not and I was like okay well it's really muddy so the dress don't you want to save the dress for good you don't want to wear that to rugby yeah but it's hard not to but that's also I fear I don't want to put him in an environment where I'm also like but ultimately like if he is a feminine man which he's not he's a child and like all kids who doesn't love rainbows and glitter yeah they're the best they're the best and they look amazing but even if he is I can't believe that out of him and I want him to like know that he can be that and almost like not let it bother him that's a really interesting like thought as well because my dad will always say to me he needs to cut his hair he needs to cut his hair and I'm like why he goes everyone always thinks he's a girl and I'm like okay but that doesn't bother him he but he doesn't mean it because he cares he just means because he wants to protect him from being teased and it's the same situation it's like they you want you don't want to put your kids into situations where other people are going to be mean like of course you don't but equally you want them to be themselves and how do you find that balance well I just sent message to the teacher this morning being like because also Alfie um in reception I don't know if they do this in every school but they um had to pick a family picture to take in and it's on the wall and Alf picked a picture of us from the festival that we always go to this amazing festival over the summer that's really family friendly and he was wearing his pink tutu and that's the picture he um chose and the teacher said oh it's been really great actually because we've had all these amazing conversations about how like tutus aren't just for girls and And like, you know, she was like, we got to have these really nice conversations around like gender and gendered expectations, obviously in a very appropriate way.

22:46So I just messaged her today being like, can we maybe have another one of those? And the best thing is whenever Alfie comes home and says, oh, pink's just for girls or tutus are just for girls. I can guarantee that there'll be a picture of Harry Styles. I know. So there's an amazing picture of Harry Styles in a pink tutu. And Alfie just happens to love Harry Styles. he loves his music and so I was like see Harry Styles wears a picture too. Yeah it's great isn't it representation yeah. Thanks Harry. Thanks Harry. We'll be right back after this short break.

23:20Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now where were we? And what about your little girl because we haven't had you on since you gave birth to her. How has that been for you? Obviously growing up in the world that you're now in and you know being such a speaker around women's rights and supporting women what are you saying to her? What conversations are you having with her? So Ada is two. So I think it's not the conversations I'm having. It's maybe the, like the language that I'm avoiding. Okay. So the whole inspiration around Bimbo, I always knew I wanted to write a book. And when I was single, I started writing things down.

23:55But the inspiration behind it being Bimbo was that when I look at her, she's obviously only two, but the way she looks in the mirror like she loves like even at the moment she's asking to sit reverse in the car again because I've got a mirror mainly so that I can see if she was napping whatever and she just sits and like she loves her face and she loves looking at her tummy and her body and she's so like loud and self-assured and she's like a really kind soul but she's also like she'll be like no daddy don't touch me no Alfie that's not kind and I think wow like as women we spend so much whether it's like therapy or self-help books trying to be that again and we were that all along like you know I said that the way we look in the mirror that that would have been you and me once and we're conditioned to hate ourselves to shrink ourselves and and then we spend a lifetime almost trying to get back to who we were in the first place so I always try to empower her to make her own decision but in the right way so sometimes if rather than like get being angry and hitting Tommy if she doesn't want him to pick her up it's like teaching her that she can like express a boundary of like I don't like it when you do that or daddy you must ask me to pick me up but it's not just Tommy I mean it could be me and I always avoid the word bossy around her because I think that's a label that we put that's one of the first labels I think that we put on girls that we don't put on boys boys are almost like oh look at the little leader and i noticed with a ada and tommy did this right from the beginning he's like oh we're gonna have to lock her up and i was like oh my god she's literally just been like come outside my body and we are already talking about locking up girls but then boys were always like always gonna be heartbreaker and i'm always like yeah i hope not top shagger it's so weird though i hate it and even if she has like little boyfriends and people yeah that her boyfriend and i'll be like no well no because she's two and we don't know if she likes boys or girls just or anyone so she's two yeah but it's all it's that conditioning already that we do even like innocently not realizing as adults so i think i if anyone ever says oh she's quite boss isn't she i'm like yeah isn't that great yeah because like that's what we want look at the world we're sending young girls out to don't we want them to be yeah sassy bossy do you know what i love at the moment gd and her mates at school in Axel's year five sassy's like oh she's like the sassiest girl bad right Gigi's year they've all adopted it and they want to be sassy so I say to her what do you want to be when she grows up she goes sassy love we're having a sassy pop stars party we're having a sassy this and she really owns it and I'm like this is this is great but it is it's just reframing it and in their little world they've done that themselves but even just year to year sassy's bad in year five and in year too sassy's like you want to be sassy i just like i just want to like preserve her like she was born happy honestly like alf's quite a complicated little soul and he needs a lot of like love and assurance but she is like she is so happy and i think oh how long until the world starts to like shrink you down because that's kind of what happens isn't it and even like on again on friday the same is the numbers day Alfie got I I got a letter telling me that Alfie was overweight and if I wanted to talk about weight to him like this child is not overweight he's like quite a stocky yeah from the council I could say they must have weighed him at school yeah and then on his BMI scale which was obviously an outdated scale from the 1800s by a man who was a mathematician not even anyone in the in the medical professional world so he is apparently overweight but it said um we understand And it's very personal of how you talk to your child about weight.

27:46And I was like, I'm sorry, we're talking to five-year-olds about weight. What? I don't want any five-year-old. But then I think for Ada, like, who's going to be talking? Oh, actually, a couple of weeks ago, someone at nursery went, oh, Ashley, can I have a quick word with you? And I was like, yeah, yeah, of course. She went, I just want to say that Ada's been, like, saying that her tummy's fat. I don't know where she picked it up from. And I was like, oh, well, that's all right. I said, that language hasn't come from my house, but fat's not bad, is it? And she was like, ooh. Obviously in her eyes, she wanted to be like, no, you're not fat, as if like being fat.

28:20And I was like, well, she's just looking at her tummy and seeing a big tummy. Like, I was like, personally, I don't use the word fat, but I also don't think we should automatically assume it's a bad thing because it's just a descriptive word. Yeah, but then on the other side of that coin, we don't want, I mean, I heard Luna saying it, and they're like, oh, my thighs are really fat. And I also, I don't want her, I don't want her to, she's seeing something in her mind or someone said something or is she, I don't know. It wasn't about the common. It was more like she's observing her own body at such a young age.

28:51Is that natural or is that something that's coming earlier? I don't know. I was going to say, I do think that they do that like at school. They like see the differences in their bodies and they're just talking about what they are. I don't know. But I think, I don't know if it's us. we're like oh my god don't worry about what your body looks like but maybe to them they're literally just saying it how it is i don't know what's it but saying what they see yeah i don't know if you're looking yeah i mean it's hard because how's luna now nine but like just to be that image i think does start around then not to say that that was what she meant but i think body image issues like start much younger than we think but they're observing like so much of the world around you and also you don't know what conversations they're having at school around like eating and you know good food and bad food that's another thing um but with ada i mean she she definitely wasn't looking at her tummy and thinking oh i'm really fat she was like like literally just like there's my tummy she loves my tummy like she finds it fascinating and like she loves like the squidginess of it and i always say to her that's where you came out of and like you know she loves my c-section scar um i saw that lovely post that you did about it it made me feel quite emotional actually the way that she was touching it and really and then you're like that's where you came from as well and he was like in there yeah yeah so cute because it is fascinating and I feel like we forget actually that we gave birth to humans like it's amazing but we forget to like see the wonder in it and they sometimes help you remember yeah it's incredible isn't it we'll be right back after this short break

30:27welcome back to this episode of made by mamas now where were we so i just wanted to obviously i feel like the voice that you um that you are really like you're banging you're banging the drum and you're and you're doing so much good and i feel like maybe there wasn't somebody in this space speaking so passionately about it i love watching you i love your the journey that you've been on in the last 10 years is quite remarkable i i imagine you receive a lot of positive feedback lots of comrade in arms what is the negative stuff like for you to handle and what is it and what sort of comments and things are being said well I suppose I would say no matter what you do you're probably going to get negativity so maybe if I talk about things that are like political there will naturally be much more of a push against that but I feel like no matter who we are what we do we get troll just for existing especially as women but especially online so I wouldn't say I think at the worst the worst of it is that I got reported to social services by anonymous trolls and that was a lot I was pregnant with Ada at the time and I think that just really shocked me that there's one thing writing abuse online or saying telling someone you don't like them but another thing to like take it into the real world to the point that you want some children to get taken off them so I'd say that's the more extreme element or I get say like rape or death threats especially if I speak up against like anything to do with like incel culture or Donald Trump but for the most part I'd say it's literally been called a bimbo hence the book title because I find that when I go on to this morning and people don't agree with my opinion um as in like viewers they will be like she's a bimbo or she's a reality star or she why what does she know whereas nick ferrari or pierson morgan or whoever it is as a man could go on to this morning and give an opinion and people might not agree with that opinion but nobody questions their intelligence so i'd say that's the main thing which is you know and also So even how we label like, you know, the whole idea that if you're a reality star or it's like beauty or brains, like what could she possibly know about things?

32:47And I think at first I used to take it not personally, but I'd almost feel like I wanted to post my university degree to be like, well, actually I know loads about this subject because I've got a degree in it or whatever it might be. But now I just don't even care. And I just hope that I always think like nothing I'm saying is really that controversial. Like even if people don't necessarily agree with it, at the heart of things, I agree that people should have rights and that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on their like gender, their sexuality or their birthplace. so I feel like even if I can make people consider a different side to what they're maybe reading in like the tabloids for example then that's really the ultimate goal and like my proudest moments on this morning are always when I make Nick Ferrari consider a different opinion so for example we were talking about equality and pink tax and at the end of that conversation he was like oh yeah I hadn't really considered any of that like the fact that women are more likely to take time out to raise children or to care for elderly people and he was like oh yeah I you're right I hadn't considered that and so for me that's the win and so I obviously it depends where you are mentally when you see certain comments and I'd be lying if I said I had a thick skin because I really don't naturally have a thick skin um but I also think well it's almost like if I get the bad comments I know that some people unhappy people are always gonna seek out unhappiness but also it's almost like well I need to explain myself better next time because I believe that you can't really argue with the fact that people deserve rights yeah and equality yeah of course not it's just it's just about the way that the world has moved and how fast it's moving and I think online anybody as we know can just sit there say what they want when they want and I know I wouldn't be able to handle that like one negative comment comes in and it's always the loudest voice it's always the loudest voice so I think it's so brave of you to be like no matter who says what this is what I'm saying and I'm doing it for a reason like you are changing people's minds and you are exposing people to a modern way of looking and the right way of looking at how we should be treated I also do think and it's an evolution the majority of people like these days especially in the world we live in like it's so much about like the left and the right but actually for most people I don't think it is the left and the right they are people who feel like they have been overlooked and they want a fairer world and they want to feel like they're going to work and having something to show for it at the end of the day but people are being like radicalized and manipulated in all different spheres so obviously you've got like the kind of incel movement which is capitalizing on male loneliness and blaming women for the fact that men feel left behind or that you know men feel like they that women's rights have come at a cost to their rights and in some ways maybe they have I think I'd be pissed if I was a guy that I'm like what do you mean I don't get to have a free cook maid therapist yeah I know but it's also because there's like there's not enough people speaking to a version of masculinity that's positive because I think the most frustrating thing for me is like the patriarchy harms men and so we always are speaking out about it but then there is like this idea that men kind of blame women as opposed to the fact that it's like well it's not women who've told them to like keep stern on their emotions I'm sure like you'll have heard just anecdotally like in friendship groups and stuff like in the like work world at the moment all white middle-aged men are like being discriminated against yeah and they all feel really like oh well I'm not going to get the job because I'm white middle-aged male and it's so hard to have those conversations with them because I get it like they've been used to having everything everything you know they've probably started a job at 21 out of university been able to fly through doing what they want had their children it not impacted their life all of that and then they're getting to an age now where they might be going for the next thing and they're like oh but it has to be a certain quota of women in this sort of senior leadership roles and it's so unfair and i'm like okay but yeah can we like if you look at it from the other way you know there's because there are no women there and now they're trying to work out how we get there because we need to have equality and we need both and then you know it's difficult i get it because it's like i get that men feel like things have been taken away from things have changed but but that isn't that also why women had to fight yeah exactly quality because men weren't willing to hand like to give it to us and I think there's this quote that says like when we talk about like a matriarchal society like men worry that women will treat them the way they've treated us oh my god and and actually like the idea of like a matriarchal society is kind of like you're not at the top it's like you're here like trying to nurture and care for everyone and so it's like okay I get it but you could argue that for anything like you know we're all white we could be like oh because we're white we're not going to get opportunity but we can And also rationalize and be like, that's not what is happening.

38:04And actually, like, people deserve, like, the society will be better for everyone when we have more representation. Like, in parliament, of course, if you're a white male politician, you might be like, oh, it's so unfair. 30 years ago, I would have walked into this job. Yeah, and look what you did. The society. So, like, ultimately, yeah, you've got to maybe work a bit harder. but they are still the main representation. And I remember a man once saying to me, oh, you can't even speak to a woman anymore these days. Oh, yeah. How do you even come up to a woman in a bar? And I went, you can. Maybe just don't put your hands on our waist.

38:40Yeah. You just don't want to be assaulted. If she doesn't want a drink, don't call her a slut. Yeah. Do you remember all those comments when we were growing up? Oh, can I buy you? No, I'm right. It's like, oh, slut. Yeah, oh, don't. It's like, what, because I don't want to have a drink with you? Like, it's bonkers, that language. Yeah. So maybe try just being nice and charming. And I do think like, you know, I think it's really exciting that for our kids, they won't see like diversity tick box or whatever period that you want to say that we're in now. I really welcome it because I'm like, how amazing that everybody gets to see themselves represented that, you know, for whoever you are, whether it's like your, your like the color of your skin or your gender or your sexuality.

39:22Like how amazing for our kids that it hopefully won't even be a talking point. is just seen as normal and how much better will that make society because we all think that each other deserves equal place in society which is kind of where we want to be where we want to be um actually bimbo is out now when this podcast goes out who needs to read it do you know i would say of course women um it's basically the book that will hopefully help you stop shrinking yourself physically mentally emotionally um people say because I get it from my teenage daughters I think there's definitely chapters in there the way I've done it is it's um goes like girlhood maidenhood womanhood singlehood motherhood elderhood and um I would love to have read at least the first half of that book as a teenage girl but I've had quite a few men read it and the the guys at penguin who did my audiobook he was like I really love that and one guy asked me to sign it for his teenage daughters and he I think hopefully everyone will read it it's obviously going to be mainly women but I don't think it would do any harm if some men read it as well yeah I'm really excited any products that you're absolutely loving right now so last time we probably asked you about baby products but let's talk about things that you love let's let's leave on a fluffy note um I mean do you know what I've actually just really got into like makeup minis because like miniature versions of makeup so you can have them in your handbag it makes sense yeah you know mini makeup and um charlotte told we do a lot of good mini makeup so i've just got like the pillow talk mini lip kits i mean let's be honest guys you spend more money for less product when you break it down but it is really handy to have like some miniatures and actually an eye brightening serum let's be honest most of us are absolutely naked Cozass it's like a pink illuminator I saw that brand in Space NK the other day Cozass yeah my makeup artist recommended it so anything that she tells me to get I'm like yes well you look glory you do good luck with the book Ashley and keep doing what you're doing Ashley James everyone

41:30Ashley James for PM I really love her I think she yeah I mean she really gets her message across and really does challenge you to think and I really love that about her and you know anyone listening you don't like she said you don't have to agree with everything she says absolutely not like she she says that herself you know she doesn't want everyone to agree always but what she's doing is raising things that maybe we've never thought about or you know sort of opening up conversations around the way that we might have been treated as teenagers and helping us think and then also for us people who are raising boys and girls right now how we can help them support them um so they don't sort of face the same challenges as we did yeah i don't know if you agree with this george but i um i found i find it really interesting that she's found her voice a bit later in in you know i mean she's only well she's not even 40 yet is she but you know like as in she had to go through all that experience to then really think deeply think about what has happened to her in her life and how she can try and change the future for our kids yeah I really love anybody that's doing that I really admire anybody that's got such a strong voice in a space like that which is you know there's not many other people banging the drum that loudly um and you know she's going up against you know politicians and Nick Ferrari and you know debating on tech like it's pretty amazing yeah it is really impressive it really is and definitely have a read of her book um anyone listening because there really is something in it for every stage and maybe get your partners and husbands and stuff to have a read as well i love that george um thank you so much for listening to today's podcast as always we'd love you to rate review subscribe and please give our podcast a follow yeah and if you've got any feedback on this episode or guests you'd like to hear from drop us a dm on instagram we're on at made by mommas and we'll be back on friday