Friday Q&A: Handling Children's Anxiety with Saskia Joss

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0:34hello and welcome to made my mama's the podcast i'm zoe hardman and i'm georgia dayton and this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits with five kids between g and i we have seen a lot we really have each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way in short we're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands. And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review.

1:07You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at made by mummies. But for now, George, should we get into it? Hello and welcome to Friday's episode of the podcast and a returning guest to the podcast today because she was so fantastic the last time she came on. I feel very special. Thank you for having me back. Is it your second or third time? This is my second time I didn't even know people were allowed to come back I was really hoping you would ask me you could probably recognize her voice uh it's Saskia Joss on the podcast how are you just quickly oh I'm very well it's been like an insanely busy year since I last saw you I wrote a book which was very exciting I told you about it last time I came it's called help my child's anxiety is giving me anxiety and it's all about how parents can help children who are anxious I also now do a podcast with my very nice mom Vanessa Feltz it's called help my child's anxious and you can find it online and the idea is it's a way for parents to get a sort of weekly boost while they look after anxious children and they can get a bit of tips and tricks for how to help their kids and also keep themselves calm while they do it.

2:05I do a lot a lot of work with lots of children who are anxious but also children who are just going through lots of things. I'm a therapist for children really full-time I do lots and lots of work with children I work in schools I work at home and I also now work a lot with children who are finding it very hard to go to school because they're anxious um and you've been popping up on our screens loads all right star of channel five please stop it I mean you know I it's it's always lovely to get a chance to um talk more about the things that you care about and I feel very pleased that I've been given so many lovely things to do this year and it is something I literally never thought I would be doing so it feels very exciting to get to talk about interesting things and meet cool people like you and do fun stuff so it's um very very lovely to be back and I feel very very pleased well yeah we're thrilled to have you back and as you can imagine I think as it was last time lots of parents sending in questions for you let's start with this one six-year-old son still struggles with socializing with kids outside of school is this normal um so yes I think that we have to consider the idea that all children have a different social battery just like how we've got introverts and extroverts as adults there are children that are the same and they may find for example that the intensity of socializing at school means that in the evenings or the weekends they don't really want to see their friends and not because they don't like them or they're not involved in in the social group but because it requires a lot of them to be social and we all kind of have to work out what do we like doing some people absolutely love going out the whole time and some people would much rather call up at home and that's exactly what our children are like some children just need recovery time and I would think if my son is upset by not socializing but at home and I think how could I engage him in other ways like there are the clubs you know scouts or karate or ballet classes where he might make friends in a way that means he doesn't have to manage the social structures because the structure is the class but would still give him this opportunity to socialize but I also think is he okay he doesn't is it okay for him is he happy being at home in which case I wouldn't worry too much when he gets older his social battery will expand his ability to make friends will improve but if he seems sad about it then I'd be thinking what other ways are there I'd also think are there family members or neighbours we could play with that are a kind of easier fit because they know him so well and am I just pushing my child to do something that I think they want or something that they actually want oh my gosh we were talking about this earlier on weren't we when we weren't recording are we doing all these things for our kids or are we doing them for ourselves and are we putting stuff on our children that it means something to us but but they're telling us a different answer.

4:38Yeah, I mean, it's a really, really hard question because obviously all parents want to give their children the best possible opportunity. And there will be things that we can see are really good opportunity, like helping our children learn to read. That's going to help every child. But there will also be things that only some children need to do. Like obviously I'm massively in favor of children having music lessons, but very few children will become players in the symphony orchestra. Does that mean they shouldn't have music lessons? No, everyone should learn things. It's great for the brain to make connections and have a brain that's quick at learning new skills.

5:06But I think there's an element of how much pain or how much friction am I willing to have with my child to make them do something that I know is not a sort of long-term prospect for them. And am I thinking, for example, I think obviously if you had struggles in your life socially when you were growing up, you're going to make a big push for your children to have lots of friends. If you were really struggled academically, you're going to make sure your children have tutoring. There's things where our own experience informs the way that we parent, but we're only trying our best to do the right thing.

5:33but we also have to remember that our children are not ours. Yes. So we have to do a bit of both. We have to think, I know that it would be beneficial if they do go to a handwriting specialist, but also am I willing to fight with them to do it or could we do this at home? Or is it just that I always feel embarrassed about my handwriting and I'm just trying to make sure they don't have to feel that feeling that maybe wouldn't feel it anyway. Yep. Yep. Okay. Love that. Here's one. 23-month-old, just become fearful of things that she liked, farm animals, et cetera, when seeing in person. Yeah. So she suddenly just started to become anxious around things that she's learned.

6:08So anxiety occurs when we feel that we are in the presence of danger. That may not be true. For example, a horse behind a fence is obviously not dangerous, but children may have misunderstood something that means their brains have reclassified a particular stimulus as dangerous. So we talk about it at home and we might, for example, get some toys of animals from the farm and we might say, oh, lovely horse, he's such a nice horse. see when the horse is behind the fence he can't come near me but I can stroke him how nice I get to be in charge when I'm with the horse because the horse is behind the fence so we might kind of model um where the safety is which is there are things in place that make it safe and we're trying to show children what they are and it's transferable to any fear so if our child is scared of swimming lessons we're going to explain that the people running the swimming lessons are literally employed to keep them from drowning that's their actual job and if children did hurt themselves at swimming lessons they wouldn't be able to have them so everyone has to be even better than they would be usually looking after children so we explain that to our kids the fear goes away they're scared of farm animals we explain very carefully why those things are not unsafe that they're in in cages they're in books and beautiful paddocks are looked after beautifully and the farmers are going to only have safe animals that are going to spend time with children i'm going to explain to my child that there is actually a big um break between what they think is scary or fearful making and the thing that would really happen and i might even ask well what do you what do you think could happen and so well the horse might step on my foot well actually i don't think the horse will be able to come anywhere near you and actually horses are very lovely and calm and gentle and some of those beautiful animals you could see if we can show our children that in a way that means that they've kind of practiced it before they get to the farm but i also might think do we do we need to go to the farm every day while they're a bit anxious or could i give them a little break and then try again in a few weeks time when they've kind of forgotten that it was something that got it yeah like rush my child to the farm if they're nervous i think let's talk about it first Let's see if we can work out what the thing is that's made them feel worried.

7:58Even with low speech, you can do the speaking. I wonder whether you thought maybe the horse could come out. He can't. He cannot come out. So it doesn't have to be as detailed as you'd explained to an older child, but you're trying to show very clearly that something's got containment. So the fear of the water, the fear of the horse, the fear of going on planes, all of those things can be contained by adults and the facts that we have about them. Does it work for things like broccoli or grapes or any form of fruit or vegetable? oh the broccoli is going to taste really nice when you go when it goes down your throat you might be worried that it doesn't taste nice because you didn't like it for eight years of your life yeah um i don't think that chud and don't eat food because they are anxious of eating them that i don't think that's the same thing i think they just think it doesn't taste nice do they are they not because i love broccoli so i'm a broccoli fan so it's hard for me to even understand why you wouldn't i have a theory that he has a phobia now of any form of fruit and veg my son i feel that that is he says that is disgusting that's going to taste like sick he's like oh why would i eat that they are disgusting but he had reflux didn't he yeah and i do think there is a little bit of a so there are obviously different kinds of um fears that affect children around food children will always go most children will go through a picky phase that starts to exclude things that are more complicated so for example i love strawberries but sometimes i eat the strawberry and it is soft and squidgy and a bit brown and sometimes when it's really hard and a bit sour it's unreliable the food in itself is unreliable and that's definitely true with vegetables and fruit they are always different you get them from one supermarket or another that's why some people have got their favorite supermarket for strawberries and a different one that they go to for oranges because there is something about the texture of fruit that is very changeable right and chicken nuggets for example that come out of the freezer are always exactly the same i can completely expect what they're going to be like in my mouth.

9:46The taste is the same. The texture is the same. The feeling is the same. Every time I eat them, they are completely reliable. Fruit and vegetables are probably the most unreliable things you can eat because they are very different depending on what day you pick them and how long after you ate them if they've been in the fridge, if they haven't been in the fridge. And children are very sensory. They're experiencing the world because they haven't got language for it in the way that it feels. And so fruit is very easy to get on the wrong side of. You have a very sour apple. You don't want to have any more apples.

10:13So we have to try again. and there are things we can do like humorous games so you say like i've got i'm it's true that all the cells in our body refresh every three months so our tongue also has changed than it was three months ago so i might say to my child three months ago you didn't like apples but maybe now you do right you might i'm using that you might so with my kids i don't do every three months like it's like a robotic experiment but when i remember to do it yeah and i get my food you know my my food delivery every so often i'll get like a sharon fruit or a star fruit or a something we haven't eaten for a while and a few other vegetables we haven't and I'll cut them up really really small and I'll put a blindfold on them and I'll say we're going to try it if you don't like you can spit it out so I'm not going to make anyone feel like they have to swallow it or that it's too much but we're going to try things we haven't tried for a while and see if our tongue likes it now okay and I think what we're doing is we're demystifying the process of eating because we don't want our children to think that anything is like an off-limits food because actually as you get older you're more likely to try food from other countries or food made by different people and there'll be opportunity to really love flavor but at this point children I would say probably from about three to about 11 12 are very likely to rather prefer plain pasta and a chicken nugget they can trust it it's so reliable and it always tastes the same okay that has made me feel a lot better that's real I didn't know about the tongue three months all of our cells change in our bodies every three months not at the same time but they will change so it's also true it's not false that our tongues also change so they are likely to like something different next brilliant i'm using that love that 12 year old son is completely withdrawn after a bad breakdown of second marriage what can i do oh gosh it's very very hard people really underestimate um divorce and separation of families um even with a second marriage where you think maybe they will be less connected to the person which is not necessarily true we all um make connections people in different ways we don't know whether there were children in that family that he no longer gets to see there are other things that can happen.

12:03So we underestimate divorce and separation in such a huge way. You know, we take bereavement very seriously, but inherently divorce is like a bereavement. It's the death of a life that you knew before. And that's very, very complicated for children. And we don't say that enough. I really think it's important that we hold in mind that for children, it's such a huge change. Everything about their life and their world is different. And it's a feeling that we, if we don't take it seriously, our children can disconnect from us because we haven't fully understood how much pain or how much shock they're in because of the change so i think what we're in even if with a second marriage even if you think they weren't necessarily that close with whoever it was i think we'd say to him i can see this is really rough and i would sit with my child and how difficult it is this is hard i can see how sad you are um i obviously want you want to help you feel better so number one we could find someone for you to talk to about it that's when you look in your local area for a counselor or a therapist or a support group for children who are going through family breakups, which there are around the country, really nice ones.

13:00You might ask other friends of yours who've been through other separations, like if they could hang out with their kid a bit more often where they might understand them a bit more and they could just sit quietly together and watch a film or play games or whatever and not have to talk about it because they kind of have a language around it because they've been through the same thing. I think I would say to my child, I can see you're really having a tough time and we're about to have our summer, this really beautiful summer where we get to do loads of fabulous things and I want it to be really great.

13:25I don't want you to sit in the house the whole summer because there are lots of things we can do for free. There are lots of places we can travel to. We can have loads of adventures. Let's do it. Let's have this adventurous summer and break you out of this. Because inherently, the feeling of depression and this feeling of being withdrawn from sadness, the word depression in this case means a pushing down of a depression of the chemicals you're meant to feel. And childhood is full of really great chemicals. That's why it's so different being a child to another. That's why kids get so excited because their chemicals are so off the charts, all the nice ones that we like.

13:54oxytocin from connection dopamine from achieving goals and ticking things off the list and um endorphins from just doing backflips in your garden children are so chemically forward but when we are depressed we are without chemicals that's why it feels so awful but we can try and fill our children up like a big cup we can think let's do some more things together so we'll get some oxytocin let's do some more exercise as a family so we get some endorphins let's um you know hang out with friends that we haven't seen for a while because i know that will really spark and back up i'd be thinking how do i pour back into the cup of an empty child for the purpose of understanding that life goes on which is what i'm really trying to show my children after breakup life goes on or after death life goes on with the things we can always do to make life worth living again and having fun time so let's do it let's think of something great what what you know what music obviously there are limits on funding for everyone i'm not suggesting everyone should just fly their children to the moldus it's the opposite of what i'm saying it's small things it's small connective moments where you've remembered what they like and you show them you do take them to the games expo you do take them to the pokemon trading event at your local um you know your church hall and you look out for things that you think might allow them to feel connected and chemical again and that's the way that we help children through but by saying to them i get this is really really hard first and then trying to fix it afterwards right that's beautiful i love the way you just put that we'll be right back after this short break

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15:52Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? How to support daughter who's 13 with extreme anxiety before her period. It lasts for around 10 days. Gosh, that is a really good one. So the first thing is I would be wondering what is the misunderstanding she has about her period so obviously you're allowed to be scared of anything you're human and things can be scary but usually things aren't scary so obviously there are things about periods that aren't nice we can all talk about periods we're in the generation why you're allowed to show red liquid on the tv great news for everyone and periods are going to come for children who have uteruses and they will be able to um have a period and so we want to say to them what is it about the period that's making you so nervous because if it's going to be the same every month we've got to try and work out what we can do to manage it so if it's pain i will be talking to a gp about age-appropriate painkillers for your children so that and a way that they can take them when they're not with you so they don't have like that you can trust them to do it really safely yeah and that they've been told by the doctor exactly the right amount for their age and size and all those things so they've got to back up for pain they've got a way to rest and relax that we've got this thing where they don't have to they know they've basically got a backup for each of those things if it's something that's going to come every month we've got to make it more manageable and we've got to also show them that we've we've also survived it you know i have a period every month and i and it's do i love it no it's not my favorite time of the month but i i'm used to it now because i'm doing it for so many years that i'm gonna say to my child like i'm gonna help you get used to it yeah it isn't ever going to be like your favorite moment of the month you know i don't think anyone's like woohoo but the idea that we we have to be scared of it or we we need to be against our period like it's an enemy is never going to be useful because it's going to keep coming back every single month until it doesn't so like said to me the other day she went because um she was like oh you know my sister and and she was like she's just going to get it and then that'll be the end of it and i was like right you do realize that yeah every single she went what her jaw was on the floor and i was like you know every month until you go through the menopause and she was like oh my god and i was like no we're gonna we're gonna embrace it it's gonna be a good thing you know we'll tackle it head on there's nothing to worry about it means that you're healthy and your body's working the right way for your for your age and what your body's meant to be doing that time once you've got your period it's meant to keep coming so it gives us an indication that our children are working in a healthy way so i would say that to i would say that i'd say every time it comes i'm pleased it shows me that your body's working beautifully that you're nice and healthy and so we've got to help you feel pleased what about like a very very small period gift every month or like um a period movie night where you get to hang out together yeah or a period spa that you do on the first day of your period where they're allowed to have like a long bath where you paint their fingernails for them with nail varnish you've already got so you don't have to buy anything else you know i try and make it into more of a positive event where you're like connecting as you know ladies or connecting as people who are growing up or something yeah and i would i would just try and say like i'm really excited for your period because we've got our movie night coming up i'm really excited for your period because we're going to go to the gym and then we're going to go and get our nails done yeah so i try and make it feel like there's other good things about it so yeah it's not fun to have a period but also So there are lots of very good things.

18:56And it also shows me how healthy you are, which is really great. Great. When I tell my six-year-old off for something, she says she's ill or hurt herself. How to manage? So this is a really interesting one. So I'm going to, I'm not saying it with any judgment to this mummy because I, or daddy, but what it tells me is that your child feels that you're more able to receive pain than feelings. Okay. so this parent and not in not in not because you've done it on purpose and it's probably true lots of us haven't really got time to um deal with a whimpering child but if they're actually bleeding we are going to stop what we're doing and help them so the idea is to say to your child i want i've been thinking about what happens when i tell you off and i don't want to tell you off i'm not trying to but there will be times because i'm your mom where i have to tell you that something you're doing is not safe or not appropriate or not kind because i know what kind of person you really are you are amazing and when you when you show yourself in a way that isn't what you're really like I don't want you to do that I want you to be able to be a real lovely self and so I will sometimes because I'm your mom it's my actual job to tell you when you've done the wrong thing and I don't I'm trying my best not to shout obviously sometimes I might only make mania because I'm worried about something but when I tell you off it isn't because I'm telling you that I don't think you're doing a good job you're a good girl it's that I think that this thing could be better.

20:16And so when I tell you, I can see that sometimes this funny thing happens where suddenly you say that you're not very well. I wonder whether you think that if you're not well, I will then cuddle you back up and you're starting a place where you think I'm not your friend. And then if you're ill, I'll be your friend. I'm always your friend. I'm always on your team. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you did. I'm still on your team and I still love you the same amount, but I still have to be able to tell you when you've done the wrong thing. So you can just ask for a cuddle. You don't have to be ill to get a cuddle.

20:44And I can be annoyed that you've done something silly and still give you a cuddle. Yeah. So I would just clear up the misconception that like the only way to get back into your mom's arms is by being ill. Okay. I would say I will sometimes have to tell you that you've done the wrong thing because that is my actual job. But if you want to cuddle while I'm doing it. Just say to me. Do it. I'm here. I will always be able to cuddle you. You don't have to be falling over or feeling sick for me to come and give you some physical attention. I think that's what you're basically asking me to do. And so once I finish telling you, if you say okay, we can have a cuddle at the end anyway.

21:17That's great. My first one is hyper needy and won't ever be alone even at seven. I'm worried that she lacks independence. So children that don't ever want to be alone don't understand in some ways that their parent is always looking after them even when they can't see them. So we have to prove to our children, I'm looking after you even though I'm not here. And we do that by saying all of the incredible invisible stuff that we do for our children without them knowing. I make sure your clothes are clean in the laundry even when you're not at home I make sure I've got the snacks that you like in the cupboard even when I don't know if you're going to eat them I am constantly thinking about you and there's like an actual uh term it's called mind mindedness I keep my child in mind I keep my child in my mind and if I can show my child that I regularly keep them in mind when they're not there I'm just as on their team as when I'm standing next to them for example they're just as safe in the same room as me as they are in their bedroom because our house is safe because I am safe because I've organized everything in a safe way because I know them really well because I'll remember that they don't they need their pillow for the sleep over and bring it over even if they forget it because I'm that guy I'm that parent I'm that person as Kat Sim says I am the table right yeah yeah right so I would remind your child you're the table I'd remind your child that you've absolutely got them and that they are just as looked after and safe whether they're right next to you or they're in another house or at school and when they fully understand that and I would really keep saying let me just give you a list of all the things I did this week that you didn't see because I was caring about you when you weren't here and when I do that you will see that you could be at school at your gymnastics class at grandma's house on holiday with a school trip and I would still be making sure you were okay even if I couldn't see you okay and they don't and they can have that separation because they feel contained even when they're not with you right okay and if a child is being looked after by someone else for example like a grandparent or a nanny babysitter whatever and they say I miss mummy yeah I miss mummy is that a good thing or is that a bad thing because someone says something I'm asking for a friend someone said something to me the other day about that they felt that my kids were so intertwined with me with me and my husband that we do so much together as a family that they can't be awake they they miss us when they're not with us that's a bit of a secret a secret like sad judgment on their part that they're not doing the same thing that they're doing so we want our children to be attached to us to feel attached we are the only security that children have in the world right we're the only people that are going to make sure they eat and sleep and wash and go to school we're the only people that are going to do that so they only have to they not only know that about us and if we weren't there they would almost definitely die i don't just leave my children at home by themselves for weeks i would never do that because i know they're much too good to look after themselves they know that i know that so they know they need me and when they're not with me they may feel like the care they get is different or even inadequate it's not necessarily that that they're right actually grandma's just as good looking after them as i am my mom for example kept me alive all these years i'm pretty sure she'd be good at looking after them for the afternoon she is she's phenomenal but they may misunderstand that the way that somebody looks after them is not the same as you i might sometimes say to my kids right you're going to be in the afternoon with grandma is anything i need to any mom lessons I need to give grandma before we go so she can be a bit more like me while I'm not with you um you know so for example if you they need to go to your mom's for the weekend and you're worried about it I would say like we're about to go to grandma's are there any mom lessons I need to tell grandma so that she can be more like me over the weekend right yeah so you're covering the the possible gaps in the way that you parent compared to somebody else um and that tells children that not only do you realize that you're really good at your job so you're trying to like skill everyone up to be like you which is like a nice thing but it also makes the children feel it they they will get what they need when you're not there okay so I would say it's absolutely a positive for your children to be attached to you and miss you they are absolutely allowed to miss you when you're not there yeah that's what I think and I was really upset because it was the yeah the MIL um and she sort of said oh I think there's you know I think it's because so you know x y and z and I just thought I miss my kids when I'm not with that's right so I miss them I think what What your nameless contributor is saying is my children didn't behave like that with me, and that makes me feel bad.

25:28When I wasn't with my children, they hardly noticed, and it makes me wonder whether I wasn't sufficiently connected to my children. So when your children say they miss you, it identifies in that person. My kids didn't say the same. I'm not as good as a parent as Zoe. My children don't respond to me the same way. My adult children hardly call me. It's because I wasn't connected to them when they were children. all these other like funny spirals will come from that person because they didn't have the same experience everybody wants their kids to say i love you i miss you yeah it's not a negative is it no and also if they don't that's also okay we could say some children are so secure in their relationship with their parent that they don't have to say it my feeling is when your children are saying it what they're saying is this place doesn't feel exactly like my house and not in a bad way just in a statement i'd never take them there they don't want to go there this place this place doesn't feel like my house so the question is how do i make the other places my children go to feel more like my house so they're less likely to miss me and less likely to feel that things will happen and they won't get sorted out got it okay that's really interesting um my child has a competitive nature creating frustration anxiety and difficulties with friendships um so um boys are naturally more competitive and this isn't based on factors based on my experience so i'm not saying that scientifically this is true my feeling about boys is that they um bank on the dopamine they're going to get in advance so girls will win and then be very excited whereas boys will get the dopamine like as a present beforehand and then it feels like it's been taken away when they haven't won so that's why they're much like they get very stroppy at the end of football matches they're very tired they're whatever it is that's that's only my experience i'm not saying that i know that for a fact that's how i feel when i work with children the boys kind of like bank on the win earlier and so it feels more painful when they don't get it it's very common for children to be competitive particularly boys until they're well into their teens um and part of that is really really important you know the idea that you would work hard for something that you care about work hard for your team be the winner i'm not i don't think that's a bad thing for children to have as a drive in their life i think the key is to like we did with a lot of other things say to your child i'm really sorry that you lost that must be really hard i guess you were really excited to win yep right to sympathize empathize be with them as they as they feel the big feeling which is this basically like a take back of something they were expecting to have yeah um and the kind of like assurance that they're going to win and they don't win is a devastating feeling like you really believed in yourself and it was taken away if i you know there are lots of things in adulthood where you kind of bank on it and they don't happen and it's very very disappointing and that's exactly the same thing it's just on a child level so i think i would empathize with them and then like help them to sort of like over time learn that actually there's no real impact on the end result you know you can lose five football matches and still be an absolute cracking person and everybody thinks that about you yeah you know um the team know you tried really hard that's you know they always everyone says that about you you're the kind of kid that tries really hard and that doesn't change whether you or not is so i wouldn't say that it isn't important to win i would sit with them and say i can see that was really hard you really wanted to win and it is really devastating i'm really sorry but actually what i saw out there were all the things about you that i admire kindness friendship hard working listening to instructions from adults everything I've asked you to do, you did so for me that's a huge win, but I would still let them be sad about it because they're sad about it yeah yeah absolutely, I mean I hate losing and I'm 43 I'm not a competitive person so I just don't care at all no see I'm not either when I would say to my husband I refused to play monopoly with him because he was just too competitive it won't be fun if you beat me in this way like with such where he'd start foreclosing all the more I don't want to play like that I just want to have a laugh.

29:03Like, I don't. I'm not a competitive. No, we're playing to get the money and to win. Yeah, see, I'm not like that. Yeah, no, I'm not the same. My sister's a competitive person too. So I like competitiveness. I really like it in kids. I haven't got it, but I really enjoy watching it. And I'm like, God, it's so cool to have that. And the other day, or was it a cricket match? I don't know anything about cricket. I don't know the rules. Like, I really don't know anything. But it transpired that it was a friendly match. So again, friendly to me means it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Apparently not.

29:30and there was a dad who was umpiring because it's friendly and he was genuinely cheating like actually cheating so much so that both sides of parents were like what should we sort this out just adding an extra six runs no but he would like someone who would like literally hit the wicket and the thing would fall off yeah no wicket no out or like the ball would go off and he'd say no that wasn't a four and he I don't know what the excuse would be but say he'd be like no it wasn't and you know some you know always happens doesn't in every game there's nuance between like oh that could be right could it wasn't at all and it was going on everyone's sort of feeling really uncomfortable looking at each other and at the end of the game the team that ended up winning knew they hadn't the boys themselves even knew they hadn't actually won oh god was his son one on the other team yeah of course he his son must have been on the winning team i don't know who his son is but we all walked off all the boys were just like like deflated because they knew they hadn't won yeah and then we were having a conversation like between parents like why is he like what was that about and they said he's so competitive he cannot help himself and i was like No, that's not the word.

30:48That's when it's so negative. No. But he cannot bear to lose. I think it's probably a fair description. I think you can see that there's an element for some people where they put so much emphasis on their children's achievements that they can't let them... He couldn't. It would feel like a failing for him if the child didn't win. Well, that's far too intense. It was wild. I think that's the opportunity when you say to your children things like, I'm really thinking about hiring a huge rubbish bin and putting that man in the bin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that you can have a laugh about it. Yeah. as a family and just and then privately be like what an absolute crevice that man is like yeah crevice cretin because that's what we were trying to say we were sort of like why oh that didn't feel like winning and all the boys are sort of saying that's you know we're not that happy to win and we were like yeah trying to explain that to like 10 year old boys yeah you didn't win yeah like you actually know what to say here but sometimes people's judgment gets clouded because sometimes people big fat cheaters I think it's okay sometimes to just say what you actually think to say that man is a big cheater and we're going to just not make sure he isn't the umpire again because obviously he just can't lose what a shame that he doesn't know the rule like when we're teaching children about sport and good sportsmanship that that adult can't show us the way what a shame so I will speak to other mums and dads and make sure that he's not the person in charge I think it's okay absolutely okay to say that to your child I think quite a lot of the time just say the most actual thing you're thinking but in a nice way Great.

32:12Love that. We'll be right back after this short break.

32:41grabbing the essentials michael's has everything to make their big day legendary shop now and order ahead for delivery or in-store pickup michael's everything to celebrate anything

32:56welcome back to this episode of made by mamas now where were we help my daughter is seven and reverted to bed wetting after some changes at her dad's house bed wetting is a really interesting one because obviously part of it is like logistical which is like are they weighing enough before bedtime do they feel embarrassed about it and worried about it are they drinking late in the night i would think about managing the sort of logistical practicalities about it first but i would also just i would do a lot of reminding your child they've come home so even though we want them to feel comfortable their parent the other parents house which is very nice and lots of really phenomenal co-parents out there at the moment i'm working with lots of um divorced families and they couldn't be doing a more wonderful job like i and that definitely wasn't something i would have said five years ago the improvement in co-parenting in the last few years is absolutely stunning to see these dads and mums trying so hard and not speaking with the other one in front of the other one and being really lenient about people missing things or being loaded the the thought that is going into co-parenting at the moment is something complete we've had like i'd say it's one of the biggest positives in parenting i've seen in the last few years and so many dads coming to appointments and so many mums coming with dads even though they don't usually hang out with them and like really lovely things so first i would say just so you know you're back at our house now the rules or any of the things that feel funny at daddy's house we'll deal with them separately but when you're at our house you can completely relax i don't mind cleaning the bed it's my pleasure i would have done it when your baby and i'll do it if you're any other time you need it i will always clean up after you if you need me to that's my job as your mom but when you're at our house there is nothing to worry about you can come and wake me up in the night to go to the loo you can you know if you need me to remind you again before bed or or bring you to the bed to the loo at midnight when i when i find it you know parents go to bed too late at 11 I'll take you to the loo before I go to bed anything that you think will help I can do that here and it will be easy for me to do it because it's my job to look after you if the things at daddy's house are complicated we're going to find a way to manage them but at this house you don't have to worry about any of those things so the days that you're here I don't even want you to think about them because we are all set up here and I will work on the things that are happening at daddy's that don't seem right and you can also get co-parenting help if there's something that's complicated at parents house I work with a phenomenal lady does co-parenting now where she support a bit like couples therapy but with absolutely none of the relationship to help co-parenting families to make a sort of logistical plan for children so if children feel really well looked after and thought about by both parents in a really fair way and there are lots of really phenomenal people doing wonderful things around the country so I would just remind your child that there's nothing that you're not upset about it and when you have to clean the for just for a few weeks and it is really annoying to have to keep changing the bed sheets but I would just try your best to like set your face like that you don't you don't look disappointed in the morning to see it the less pressure there is on it the quicker it will go away in my opinion but if it doesn't go away ask a gp to send you to see a children's urologist and say if there's anything else going on we don't and also with girls it is possible that it could be a uti there are other things that could be going on that are more mechanical if they if it keeps going on even though she seems to have calmed down i would definitely get it checked out just in case because i we can't know sitting here if it's uti so just just in case i would get it checked by someone if in a few weeks time having been very calm about it it hasn't stopped perfect okay um this is a longer one my six-year-old is suffering with some anxiety she's very impulsive and highly strung pos adhd possible adhd so it's being corrected a lot at school and at home her self-esteem is suffering and she's saying things like she she wished she wishes she wasn't even here or i'm such a bad girl we never say anything like that to her how can we help build her self-esteem and confidence and help with anxiety which is showing up as tummy pain being very clingy to me and some school refusal and so children who have adhd or could have adhd often feel this thing which is called rejection sensitivity dysphoria which is the feeling of being told off is very very painful and the reason they have it in my opinion or this is only my opinion is that children who have adhd are corrected so much more often than other children they're inherently waiting to be corrected all the time by their teachers by their parents by their friends parents by the bus driver but the whole time they're doing the wrong thing and it's not their fault being inattentive means you're not looking the right way it's always being told to look the right way and being hyperactive means you always want to move when you're meant to be still that's literally the opposite of what we want children to do at school and most of the time at home as well so you can see the natural thing their body wants them to do requires correction in whatever system you're in so those children will get a lot more correction and a lot more disappointed faces and a lot more raised voices and you can see that over time obviously it will affect children's self-esteem the idea that we would expect children to be constantly told off and not think that they're a bad kid is absolutely ridiculous of course they're going to so how do we stop it one really like easy nice exercise you can do with your own child is you draw a picture of a big wall so you don't have to be a good artist like literally just bricks and a wall and i would say this is all the things about you that we know that are a fact so you'd say for example you're always kind to your sister or you're mostly kind to your sister uh you um always help me when i ask you in the kitchen you're very talented at drawing you're very very fast runner and i would start and i'd say this doesn't change this doesn't change when you are badly behaved this doesn't change when you don't listen to the sports teacher and they tell me i've got to come and get you this doesn't change i know these things about you are a fact so you don't have to be so knocked over when people say things to you because i there are things about you that are just they're a fact that they're made of gold they don't burn they don't twist they don't break they are inside you and they're made of gold and they don't go away and you can put the brick wall you've made on the wall so they can see it in their bedroom or somewhere in the house they just and you say like i'm not taking it down because these things are true they're a fact and what you're trying to do is inherently self-esteem is knowing facts about you that are affirmed by other people and like you know over time you know people will say very very beautiful and you go oh wow i'm very beautiful you remember that and you feel like oh i'm quite like you're looking at that's nice yeah well they say you're like at school oh you're very clever or you're the top set whatever and then you suddenly think you're clever or you're a fast runner or you're a good artist so you're very strong and the things that other people notice about you tend to firm up as self-esteem much more quickly than things you might think about yourself you kind of need someone to affirm that that's true so if we can identify things about our children that are positive and then make them seem like facts that are undisputed even for example giving our kids nicknames like my my super kind heart or like whatever they these things that feel like they're not up for discussion children can have a much firmer basis for their self-esteem and so i would say i would really fight against the fact that your child is struggling with this feeling of correction firstly by having what we now call like low demand evenings which is basically where after school you don't really ask them to do anything yeah you'd be like it's dinner time but you wouldn't be like put that away and come over here you just think like how am i phrasing this so that there's much less um criticism and critical nature in my voice and the way that i'm asking him excited for dinner come downstairs so even though you're asking him to come downstairs it feels like a positive it feels like you're bringing people in rather than pushing them to get there um and i'd be thinking like how do i structure the evening so it kind of flows so i'm not always telling them to go and do something else um yeah and i and you know for example things like having a timer so you're not the person has to turn it off or having the bath already ready when they finish their tv or their dinner or their drawing so that it's quite obvious where you want them to go you're not just being difficult you're not getting them upstairs then wait they're by the bath naked cold look it's obvious why they've come upstairs you're not being difficult you're moving them along so there are things we can do about structures and also i always think for children who are neurodivergent um in the the week is tiring like being going to school is tiring and by wednesday they're basically shattered from just masking and being told off and doing the wrong thing and knowing they're doing the wrong thing and having to keep telling themselves what to do the whole time um so i often recommend that children particularly younger children who are neurodivergent are getting their pajamas when they come in from school on wednesday so they've got time to like that you don't have to do all the demands of getting them out of their clothes into their clothes into bed at a point where everyone is the most tired yep so you do it much earlier you have these sort of like seamless evenings where it's very obvious why you're asking them to do things and you just try and keep the feeling of your house very um light and calm once everything's finished so this feeling like once we've come inside the house we really can relax and um it gives this feeling that at least in one place they're accepted as they are yeah yeah so they've got this like home safe space they don't have to keep fighting for themselves the whole time which i think is very hard for children who are neurodivergent in in any way yeah also sometimes i find myself like especially with my son it sounds bad but we probably like we've probably got quite high expectations of him because he's always been really well behaved so when he's not i feel like we're way harder on you know it's way more like I would just say that out loud.

41:30Come on, Axel. But we do say it. We do say it to him. We're like, we're only saying this because we've got high expectations of you. And also I get to the end of the week and I say, I feel like this week we're a bit harsh. Exactly. And then so me and my husband will be like, let's lay off him. Like he can't cope with this. But some weeks he likes the like, you know, that. But other weeks he's like, lay off me, guys. Can I ask a question? And it is about my son. But I know that lots of people listening also have this issue at various points during the day. normally it's first thing in the morning and last thing at night um there's a couple of things obviously the school refusal is coming thick and fast as in it took me over an hour to get him to even try and get up and he does not want to go into school we have tears and fighting eight so he's um he's in year three about to finish um but the the simple tasks of kit could you please go and brush your teeth that's the next thing on your list yeah i've done my teeth then i get this lie which i know is a fib and he hasn't done his teeth and then i'm like no you haven't you haven't done your teeth come on let's and i start and then it cranks up and cranks up sometimes we're in full blown arguments which I just hate makes me feel horrific the shoes he won't do he just he said to me the other day I do not want to do anything that you asked me to do what an amazing thing to say to someone I absolutely love that I love because it gives us so much feeling about what it's like to be him at the moment so we've got a little boy who is really struggling yeah we don't do you know exactly why he doesn't want to go to school does he talk about it right so the first thing to do is in a very very calm way on a day when he's not been at school or you've got a bit of extra time and I know you don't have a lot of extra time like most parents, you're a busy lady.

43:01I would like on the way to somewhere or like purposely make time to go to the park together and on the way I'd say, you know, I've really been thinking about you this week because I know how hard it is for you to go to school. We've got this like two, three week countdown till the end of school. We only have to get through it and then we get this whole summer to be together and I'm like so excited about it. But I just want to work out what is it that makes it not nice? And I would give some really good options. Is it the children and their behavior? Is it how loud the classroom is? Is it the food that you have to eat there?

43:25Is it the work is too hard? Is it the teacher is too strict? and I'd say to him, I don't need a lot of information, I just want to know which one of these things is the thing that makes it so hard. And it might be lots of them. He says he doesn't learn anything and he's too good for it. He said it's so boring, why would I go there, I don't learn anything. So I would say to him, great news, you're nearly in the year above and it'll be a completely new curriculum. Right. We only have to get to the end of this term. So even if that's not exactly true, we can go along with his supposition that he basically knows all the stuff they're teaching.

43:54And I would say that's what makes you such an amazing boy. You are so clever and you know so many wonderful things. And I'm going to make sure your next year teacher knows that you need a bit extra. Yeah. Okay. Right. I'm going to, I'm going to take that really seriously. I agree. Agree. You are extremely bright and you know loads of things. So we're affirming the thing he's identified about himself. I am a clever kid. That's a great thing to know about yourself. Even if it's not a hundred percent true that he knows everything they're learning at school. Doesn't matter. He's identified a fact that he thinks is a fact.

44:17We're going to affirm. Yeah, you're right. You are really clever. And that's why you have to go to school because we have to have this like variation of things that we know. we can't just know the one thing that we know like i know you're really good at math but like there are other things you've got to learn okay right so that's why we go to school and next year there'll be a whole load more things you don't know that they're going to teach you and that's why we go to school to know all the things we need to be an adult and to get a job and to make friends and to to learn how to be with people there are so many things we learn about being at school not just the things they teach us in the classroom okay and you're the kind of kid that needs those things and you might say to him something which is like something he could take as a bit of a badge of honor like i know you're a bit of a disruptor you know the the like people talk about like you know all the tech people that are like disruptors they're doing something different so i might say that to myself i've always known about you that you're so bright that you're a bit of a disruptor you're going to do something different with your life you're going to do something different from other children you're going to do something different to me you are an amazing kid and you're going to do this like incredible thing so how do i get you there i give you the education that you need to then be able to break it okay right got it okay so i'm empowering him through the the process of going to school and saying it's important for you to end up where you're going and if you don't do it you won't know the things you need to disrupt and to think of something clever like invent an app go to space see whatever it is like so i'd say to him you're such an incredible kid i can't even imagine the things you're going to do because you're such a great kid yeah but i need you to go to school because without the basis you won't be able to disrupt the system fine okay right so you're like empowering him by meeting him where he is which he's saying i'm too clever to go to school yeah and i would say yes and also you still have to go to school yeah but in a way that feels like you've got it you've got that piece of information and the feeling that he doesn't want to do anything you ask him to do I think that's because you haven't it sounds like he feels whether it's true or not that you haven't listened to the fact that school is so difficult at the moment right so if you were to take the time to have the conversation and say what else is it about school why did the teacher is it that you don't you think the work's so boring like how do we ask the teacher if you can have something extra till the end of term like what what else do we need to like get you there yeah I have a feeling that he would then become more responsive to you because he would see that you're being responsive to him.

46:18I feel like such a shit mum at the moment. Oh no, that's the opposite of what it is. He's so sad and he's so angry with me the whole time. So anger is an indication that something's come into somebody's space and it doesn't feel right. So he is not feeling right at school. And he said that. And it's very hard with three weeks left to go to put anything really serious in place. It's really hard. It's really, really hard because what you can do is basically sports day and prize giving. And what's the point of going in and storming in the teacher and saying, why aren't you giving him extra work? Because you've got three weeks left to go.

46:46so it would be silly to do that which is why you haven't and I would say that to him I'm waiting for next year to see whether you need extra stuff okay which I think is completely fair yeah it'd be really weird if you were going in and be like why haven't you given him extra work on the Romans when you've got literally three weeks left and everyone's basically phoning in in the politest way to all the schools the teachers have worked so hard this year with all the special needs it would be absolutely fair that they're slightly phoning in with these heat waves and whatever um I think I don't think you have to feel like you've done anything wrong I think the we've got a very interesting dynamic which is you've got this child pushing back at you which makes you You feel like you want to push back at him.

47:17Yeah, we were roused. Rather than stopping and saying, why are we doing this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We absolutely love each other. I think the most phenomenal child. Why are we doing this? Okay, I'm going to go ahead and straight away after this. And it's not anybody's fault. It does happen, particularly when we feel rudeness from our children. Oh, my God. Because it makes you feel like you've messed something up when you actually haven't. They're just humans and they have feelings. And when children, I always feel like, why would someone shout? Yeah. Why would someone shout? They shout because they think they're not listening.

47:44yeah he said why don't why are you not listening to me right so he's shouting over me right so he's shouting loudly because he thinks you're not listening but actually you are listening you've actually taken in a huge amount of what he's feeling but you haven't shown him that you've heard it okay fine so we're just going to slow down again and say you know i was thinking about why i haven't done a lot to sort out this school thing one is it's literally a few weeks left and i didn't feel like it was going to be good for a relationship with school to start going and embossing everybody about with only when i know you're going to like sports day and i know you're gonna you've got a trip to the zoo and whatever like everyone has at the moment like a few other things go so it didn't make sense for me to start like bossing everyone around at school at this point so I wasn't going to but I am listening and I can see you're having a really rough time so how are we going to sort it out and then we'll and then and that's what that's what we do okay so that's good that is absolutely amazing and thank you that's a little bit of therapy for me at the end there but I knew we were getting you in there so I was like I have to ask you the question you can also literally come and bring him to see me and we'll talk about it together I mean I think some parents feel like they get themselves in a situation where they want to have the chat but they feel like they'll make it worse yeah or they'll say the wrong thing or like they this is something i do as a job i talk about these things all the time exactly the main thing the main part of my work at the moment that i do so talking about school refusal is very easy for me because i do it the whole time when it's your own child school refusal is it no no not necessarily yeah maybe i not i mean you're getting pushback about going to school but all children will have days when they don't want to go to school and my sister calls it at this point end of termitis where no one wants to go to school because they just can't be bothered um i would say you've got a very big case of end of termitis.

49:11Yeah. Love that. Thank you so much. Saskia. Thanks. Maybe we'll have to get you back for a third time. It will be an absolute pleasure to come whenever you like me. No, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming on. That's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.

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