Friday Q&A: Is the 'Best' School Better Than the 'Right' School?

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2:06We're on at Made by Mummers. But for now, George, should we get into it? Welcome to Friday's episode of the podcast. This one is very timely for me, actually, because I've been going through all of this just now. School, secondary school applications, tutoring, all that kind of stuff. So joining us on the podcast today, we have got an educational specialist. She is founder of Olivia Press. It's Belle Cottingham. Belle's on the podcast. She's going to tell us that we're doing it all wrong and give us all the help and advice that we need. Well, it's so overwhelming. I'm just going to start there because suddenly you are in a stage with your kids where they're babes in arms, tiny, tiny, need you for everything.

2:46And then the next minute you're thinking about the 11 plus. And then you think, fuck, I don't think I've done enough. or is that just me? Well, no, I do. I think there's so much hype around. Also, primary school as well. I mean, we probably didn't buy in so much to the primary school application situation. But in secondary school, I think from year four, you hear whispers, don't you, from other parents of like, oh, are you doing this? Are you going to church? Have you done this? Oh, you started your tutoring? Oh, it's probably too late now. It's all of that. And I think what we wanted to do in this episode was strip it all back and just talk to somebody who can guide us.

3:23Yes. And actually give us the right, you know, the facts. Yeah. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Talk us through why you started doing what you do. So I'm the founder of Olivia Press and it started on, I've been teaching for about 20 years and I've worked with thousands of students and tutoring. And my journey to education was a bit, I was doing accounting and finance. and with a newborn baby I'm pregnant at the time just traveling and just stressful mom period and I just thought okay I want to do something that I actually enjoy so I quite ambitiously started a math degree and a master's after that was looking after my kids and I started tutoring as well to be honest for money you know just a little independence and I noticed very very quickly that of the pressure that parents feel every day you know whether you had a year three or year six a year eight gcse i mean it never ended it was like constant like the kids under pressure and especially like the children were finding difficult the more wordy questions so they were fine if you tell them exactly what to do but then give an unfamiliar problem and they you know they didn't know what to do so um i decided to write my own uh couldn't find anything to recommend send it on Christmas Eve actually to all the publishers and I thought maybe someone was thinking who is this crazy person you know emailing on Christmas Eve and that crazy person was Harper and Collins so they were like can you write for us so I wrote for them and 20 years later I've written pretty much for all the publishers out there so I am quite familiar with a whole 360 degree of education from curriculum point of view but also a teaching point of view and during my writing I met some of the best people in the industry and I thought okay I've worked for everyone I'm just going to go back to my you know why I started and why I'm doing this and that's how Olivia Press was born so we focus on maths books from primary to A level all dyslexia friendly and with primary we want to encourage the love for the subject the maths and secondary we focus on the harder questions for 11 plus and your GCSE and so on yeah so there's there's a lot to unpack and we've got lots of questions and so we'll get into them but just wanted to ask I guess from from a mother's perspective we have no understanding what the kids are learning in school day to day are they doing enough for for where they're where they're supposed to be in their learnings should we should be trusted in that process yeah I think it's At different stages, it looks different, that question.

6:08And also, it depends on the child. You know, I've got two children. My experience with each of them was completely different. I've worked with parents where, you know, one child, they'll go to the same school, twins, you know, same class. They'll have different experiences from the lesson. So I think the main thing as a parent is to try, and I know this is really hard because I've been there, is not to get caught into the whole thing. you know a confident child and a happy child really is more important than those eight stars or grade nines and I'm not saying that grades are not important but the school is a building how your child lives that building that's the most important thing so yeah me too because my son has just taken the 11 plus and I know it's probably different in different areas depending where you live the school that he was sitting in for is very difficult to get into and there's all this chat around oh this person was pulled out of school they've they've not been going to school for two years and they're just being tutored to sit this exam and yeah why because they want them to go to this specific school it's wild i'm calling that that's bullshit i know and then he turned up to the exam there are kids crying being sick and screaming and at that point i thought to myself what the fuck is going on this isn't okay they're 10 years old max 11 years old why are they under so much pressure it's just i've worked with families where exactly that uh where you had these children on paper they were going to the best school getting the best result they were the most unhappy yeah to the point that i suppose it's a bit like um if we go for example just to as a parallel like healthy eating you know yeah we want our children to be healthy but we don't go on every second of every minute like around them with a carrot and a broccoli we're just like we want them to have a healthy balance um you know like a good diet and be healthy whilst they're doing other things so i think being too obsessive about anything it's not good anyway whether it's school or whether and also like just because your child goes to this school it doesn't mean that that will perform amazingly after the school it's not school is just a period of life not everybody successful has had or has a phd in fact the numbers talk the opposite you know so we've all been there and most of our successes have come from some sort of struggle that we have overcome not because of her grade in GCSE.

8:48I quite often would say to the parents, seriously, when he gets older, nobody's going to say, what did you get in the mock in November, year eight, or whatever. So I think it's hard. When you are a parent, you feel like you're either failing or you're not doing too much on everybody else. I remember saying to one of my friends, so my daughter started swimming. She was like, well, my daughter does synchronized swimming. I was like, okay. So it's always like the one that does more, but it doesn't mean that it's better. It is. It can be quite harmful. So I think we need to relax and just like knowing that they'll be okay, you know.

9:21If anyone asks me about my A-level results, I just say, I've lied. I've just said I've got A, B, C. That's not what I've got. So James always told me, my husband, that he passed all his GCSEs and he's like, I passed all my GCSEs. I didn't even really go to school because I was playing football. Anyway, he had to get his certificates out recently. this is like 25 years on or whatever and um he was like oh and I was like D is definitely not a pass and neither is he he had lied the whole time me and James are aligned on that me too me too but like who cares we're rounded happy confident yeah humans most of the time I don't know if you can agree with this some people are really good at exams yeah I was really good at memorizing something so I would like mess around all year get to the exams I would revise like solidly for a week before I'd go in basically get it all out of my head on a paper and then if you asked me that question 10 minutes after the test I wouldn't know what did you get for your Jesus I did I was good you did you do what I did I did well oh yeah yeah but that's what I'm saying though because I'm embarrassed because actually it's not a reflection on what I know because it's really not and that's I do always try and remind myself of that but both situations are okay you can do really well in GCSE and you can have a child that loves learning and great you know they're doing really well we encourage them but you can also have a child that maybe find it really difficult so for them success is something different yes so and I think we just need to reframe like what actually success in school is rather than just focusing on a grade because grades, you know, are great, you know, a number on a letter.

11:08Hallelujah, Belle. Thank you for saying that. Because it's really, I find it really, it's really triggering for me because of my schooling experience as somebody that was super sporty and excelled in sport and drama, but fundamentally was called sick. I've missed out on a level of learning because of my dyslexia that wasn't identified. It was the 90s. No one really focused on it. But by that point, everybody had, this isn't a woe is me story because I know that I was a success at school, but on paper, that's not what the reflection is. And I've had to do a lot of unpicking and unwiring and telling myself that actually, I know that I had a great schooling time because I did excel in lots of different things, but just not in the academia for one reason or the other.

11:48You know, so I think that's a really important point. And let's hear that. And also if you're listening and you've got a child that in inverted commas isn't academic at the moment, it doesn't mean that they're failing. No, if anything, like when I meet, I've been teaching for about 20 years and quite often I'll meet only the other day next door to me there was garden work and two guys and go well you know and I used to teach them two best friends one went to university one didn't the one that didn't go to uni they both were good students you know started a gardening company and employed his friend who did went and go finished engineering couldn't find a job and employed him so and I'm not saying now aim like not to do well in school but there is you know it's not the grades it's like the confidence yes and is it the process as well because I sometimes think like what I've said to my son anyway I don't care if you pass this exam or you don't what I care about is that you've put some effort in and you've tried and you've been through the process of having to revise for something having to work hard at something and going in and putting yourself into a situation that's uncomfortable yeah it doesn't matter about the outcome it's about having gone through that and I think that teaches yeah I mean like yeah as much as people for example people that are good in sport you know footballers that didn't make it as a footballer they will do well later on quite often in business because they've got the discipline yes or like a person that I don't know like runs or you know goes to the gym like has got some sort of discipline whatever that looks like it's quite likely that they'll do very well in a different area because they know that if I put the hours it might not be looking exactly like this the outcome but I'll get something in return so yeah discipline is really important and kind of also we learn much more from you know I don't want any child not to get in the school but if you speak to an adult the learning happens when we didn't get things you know and you kind figure out another way around it rather than if everything goes like you know I remember I read somewhere that Richard Brunson said he was very upset when his daughter passed driving test the first time because it was like I just wanted her to practice a bit more before she actually could drive so and it's the same with learning learning happens in different ways we'll be right back after this short break

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14:58To learn more, go to mod.com. Fill out your intake form, meet with a licensed provider, and if approved, Mod Alert ships straight to your door. Go to mod.com to get started. That's M-O-D dot com.

15:38JoinMidi.com to book your first visit today. That's JoinMidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. Hello, everybody. I'm Natalie Cassidy, and I have a podcast called Life With Nat. And this week has been very special because I got to interview Andy Burnham, the Prime Minister of the UK.

15:56Belle Cottingham: You know, when I walked up that street for the first time to come into this place, you know, I knew that my dad was, you know, reaching the end of his journey. And it was hard. And I, you know, the coming together of those two things has made a hard, what would have been a hard thing, intensely hard at times. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and let me know what you think. Join our family. Life with Matt. I hope you enjoy.

16:27Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? Okay, we've got loads of questions. I'm going to kick us off. Should you ever let your child decide their senior school? Or should we as parents be the ones that make the decision? oh this is literally my life now is it yeah I think it's again like you can't have one rule I think with parenting you know every even when we read parenting books everybody writes about their own experiences and so I think rather than be like no um you have to go to this school or the child said this you kind of work with the child but just remembering that that child will be in that school from quite unless they change it for quite a few years and imagine us going to do to work somewhere that we were not happy you know like day in day out and we had to be there and we had to sit down for so many hours so the child needs to be happy with the school that's number one because it's about them however you know it's a conversation it's not like I said this and you should do it or you know like the other way around you it's a family decision that involves a child around the child yeah yeah yeah i love yes okay um this is slight you know younger so my husband naya are on different pages on holding back our girl sen she was born on the 31st of august 23 from school thoughts well my son is born on the 28th of august so i'm um quite um you know i've been through that myself and there were times where me and my husband was like why didn't we just hold him another year however now that he is 19 so he has gone through the school experience just overcoming things you know has taught him quite a lot I don't know what would have been if we had held him another year because he always had to try in sport he had to try in school so yeah there'll be days where you whichever way you decide I don't think there is a right or a wrong answer um but for him we can't think of him any other way now and he is dyslexic and you know So, yeah, there'll be days I think that he may feel like if he goes early.

18:37But then if it's a September child and he's ready, again, you have to decide, you know, around the child. Based on the child. Yeah. Would you ever regret keeping your child back, though? And I think probably the answer is no. Yeah. Would you ever? I don't know. Some of them are a year. Like Luna's a September baby. Axel is August. Is an August baby. They're virtually a year apart. and they should really be in the same school year. Sorry, they're a month apart. They should be in the same school year and they're not. And I don't know. I think, like you said, I think you really have to look at what that child's needs are right now.

19:13Forget about what anyone else says. You know your child better than anybody. I was going to ask because I don't know if this is true or not. When they go to secondary school, how does that work? Can they go a year later? How does that work? So say, for instance, now, right, say I'd held Axel back a year um and then next year say he was trying to get into school there's boundaries for when you're allowed to take your 11 plus and he would be too old to take that exam they wouldn't for that specific for that specific school yeah that's what I'm saying so then I I don't know I don't know it's just different in different areas yeah different schools yeah different and it depends how popular they are like what the demand is and also on the child but whichever decision you make then you just make the best of it you know and yeah you do make the decision around the child yeah yeah okay um what should we be considering when choosing a secondary school i think with i was thinking about this um yesterday actually because a parent um that used to work she was like oh well my daughter is so she was asking me for advice and i think um again this school is going to be the home for your child for majority of the day from 8am in the morning or how early they go till like three or more in the afternoon so number one the child needs to be happy if the child is sporty how do they accommodate a child or I don't know likes ballet or other I think education isn't just about the learning of your maths and english and science it's about also encouraging child to find you know their identity whether it's on sport ballet art so I wouldn't focus just on the academic side I would focus on the whole picture like so that your child feels free enough to do other activities that make them happy rather than just study study study from from my experience um not every school fits every child so you can have like the best school in the area like outstanding everything you know and some child as i said like i've had i've worked with families where they had twins so going to the same school completely different experiences and separated them because one school would fit a child and the other one wouldn't so yeah I would focus obviously on the whole picture what are your child's interests you know what do they like doing um is there a rugby team is there a football team is there I don't know ballet how do they treat someone that's very creative you know what does their gallery look like and all the other things rather than just grades yeah that yeah that's really interesting um someone here has put my son has just started reception I'm keen to start grammar school tutoring when should i start the tutoring i want to have the option to send him to grammar if he wants to go he's just not a reception yeah right okay yeah i've had um the first time i i remember when i was tutoring i got a call from someone saying my child is five in the summer and i thought that there was a prank so i put the phone down because i wanted tutoring from a five-year-old in the summer i just didn't think that that was but that that it does happen um one of my friends said to me like but when should i ask my child when should i get um a tutor from my child and i was like when the child asks you for help and you can't give the help so um you know if if your child really needs help but i think in reception or like younger i'd focus more into the child finding the love for learning being curious playing you know touching noticing asking questions rather than there are much much a good mathematician especially in maths it's not someone that can solve a problem it's someone that can explain give them a problem yeah and they wonder or why did it what you know like rather than being like I can't do it or I can do it so um yeah so I'd focus more in just kind of having a curious child rather than just like, I don't know, a robot.

23:06This resonates with me so much. One of the things that I'm so proud of from my son in the last six months that I've noticed is him asking me how my day was. And I know it's such a small point, right? But for years, he would just, how was your day? I'd say, how was your day, Kit? And he'd go, fine. And then nothing. And then recently I've just noticed him going, mummy, how was your work today? Mummy, how are you feeling today? mommy I think you're a bit tired can I he's noticing he's looking he's noticing whereas my daughter the most beautiful empath my little daughter she wouldn't miss a beat with it she'd be like mommy you look sad you okay or mommy you look happy what's happened whereas Kit is just and I'm like wow if nothing else yeah in the last year and that's really important has hit it with yeah because he's interacting but he's possibly modeling you as well so I think sometimes we don't notice like how much kids see and notice um so if you have been asking him you know without meaning to he's copying your behavior which is another thing like with learning if you see like a stressed parent because my child needs to go to that school without meaning to because i don't think there is a parent that wants to stress their children but we might kind of rub it on them as well whilst a more relaxed you know environment where making mistakes is okay yeah no getting the right math question is fine getting a grade that it's not the end of the world you know there's no judgment as long as a child is trying and is happy.

24:32I think that's much more important. Yeah, I love that. We'll be right back after this short break.

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25:16Ever hit a wall in the middle of the day and a third coffee just doesn't do it anymore? Here's what's actually happening. Coffee only briefly blocks adenosine, the chemical that tires you out. When it stops working, your system is flooded and you crash. Modafinil is a prescription treatment that works in a completely different way. Modafinil works by stimulating multiple receptors in the brain associated with wakefulness, including dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, histamine, glutamate, and orexin. it's a more complete solution that gives you 10 to 12 hours of steady focus and energy to learn more go to mod.com fill out your intake form meet with a licensed provider and if approved mod alert ships straight to your door go to mod.com to get started that's mod.com hello everybody i'm natalie cassidy and i have a podcast called life with nat and this week has been very special because I got to interview Andy Burnham, the Prime Minister of the UK.

26:22Belle Cottingham: When I walked up that street for the first time to come into this place, I knew that my dad was reaching the end of his journey and it was hard and the coming together of those two things has made what would have been a hard thing intensely hard at times. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and let me know what you think. Join our family, life with Matt. I hope you enjoy.

26:54Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? Some of these questions are quite specific. Okay, if I don't know the answer. Yeah, fine. So could you give feedback on Palmeters School based in Hertfordshire? Thank you. Well, my daughter went to Palmeters. She went for A level. How weird is that? I know, yeah. and it was completely her choice she made the application by herself and yeah she got in it's quite a hard school to get in and and I think she I think you if you are like good at art or and that was her thing so yeah it's a nice school I mean I have said even here like a few times but I do say to everyone that I've worked with the school is a building you know there'll be teachers that come in and go they'll be like so yeah it's a good school you know on paper it's amazing but I'm sure not everybody loves it and I'm sure not everybody hates it so it's just like for for us it was because this is quite specific my daughter wanted to go there and she did go there I think I think but I think Belle what I'm what I'm hearing without trying to put words in your mouth is it's really about the child's interests you know needs yeah you know what really sets their heart on fire it's not a one-size-fits-all it really frustrates me when I hear this old tradition you know the old guards oh you know I went to eat and therefore my son's going to go yes exactly well your son you know wants to be an artist so why don't you send him to London School of Art or whatever it is like do you know what I hear as well and I think you'll be the same though because you're not living in the area that you grew up same as me I don't live in the area I grew up so I'm going to look at schools like with no like no preconceptions I don't know anything about them I I didn't know it when I was younger like any of that whereas some of the people that I speak to who have lived there they will say oh no that's a really bad school and you think but how do you know because you were there 20 years ago how do you don't know my child but also but how do you know it's a bad school now because it everything is so different yeah and all like oh that school's got a rubbish football team and I'm thinking well how do you know because that football team hasn't even started yet they're not even there yet yeah it's I find all of that yeah there's so much noise around just preconceptions of something and it's I get it because once you're in it and you're hearing that noise all the time it's hard to break away from it yeah but you kind of have to yeah because things like you say the head changes the staff change the teachers change the kids change everything changes every year so a school that was good 30 years ago yeah isn't going to be school what even is good I don't know even is good I don't know yeah I think you know if for example I did um London Marathon many years ago and I just remember like thinking and because it was so hard for me and it was like a challenge and it's quite good sometimes as a teacher to do something challenging so you can see what that feels like but what kind of struck me is that But the reason London Marathon is so popular is because of all the people cheering on the side.

30:08So good school is someone that cheers your child to kind of go like and keep going rather than, oh, no, that's bad enough. Or, you know, like, again, like we need to remove judgment and we need to encourage children to find their thing, whatever it is. Yeah. OK, let's talk about lack of funding. So no class in primary has a TA, even reception, 26 kids in there. What can I do? I mean, when they are young, just making sure that there are fundamentals. There is nothing we can do about the funding. I know. I think, Shilam, what can I do at home? At home, I think in primary, I wouldn't say more maths or more learning means another worksheet.

30:47I would say just find opportunities where the learning happens and learning can be asking questions. So how do you know that if your child, for example, is learning that, I don't know, five or six timetables or eight timetables, which some children find difficult. well how do you know that eight times six is this what about eight times three I don't know kind of asking and showing interest like so the the child feels that you know you are interested in their learning and that is important rather than just like the result and at home there are so many opportunities where learning can happen like cooking you know going out how much does it cost do you have enough money how much pocket money what should you buy for Christmas what should get your brother you know what's the time how long till you know like little things where they don't feel like they're doing maths um yeah and again with a healthy eating we don't keep going on about food all the time but we make it accessible so when they open the fridge they find something you know that it's good for them and the same with learning you know you shouldn't be like i was just trying to find a question that someone had sent in like i can't find it my favorite thing to do with that and actually actually since doing the podcast i've really really got my head around that learning isn't just in the classroom so for example when the kids say to me oh mummy like how many I don't know stars are there in the sky I go well what do you think and then they go well it'd be really difficult to do a guest we talk about guesstimates or how many pet piece of pasta are there in this glass jar in front of me and I say you tell me what you think the problem with that is and you've got to fucking count the things but we will talk about guesstimates and it's just those little things which I probably wouldn't have seen before I always try and let them to give me their opinion and then we have a discussion around it it's really beautiful that moment rather than being like oh can you can you do your eight times table there I'm just like I can't do it oh my god I think there was there was a question that someone sent in I was trying to find it but I can but it was on a dm but essentially they were saying that they find it really difficult to find the time to carve out to do extra work they both work full time you know when they get home they don't want to be doing like extra work the parent yeah what can they do is that a time when you would get a tutor to you know step in and help what like what can they do yeah so if you are like you know all day you know like most of us are at work and then you come back home you're tired you know the least thing you want to do is like do more work and again that will look different at different stages because if for example your child has got gcse or a level you know they need to work certain amount of hours but again just creating some sort of helping them be organized for example it's in secondary it's really important that you can do whether it's like what are you going to do during the week what time are you studying what is happening being organized is like a step a very important step actually that teenagers naturally don't are not very good at so I think that's one thing whether it's printing resources getting them you know like everything is fixed and also most Just parents, I mean, I don't know, like the, I don't know, the science equation or whatever it is.

33:53So even if you are around, it doesn't mean that we have got the knowledge to help them. But just giving them encouragement, you know, again, going back to London Marathon. I don't know those strangers that are, you know, saying my name. I haven't got a clue. But if your child is feeling like, oh, I'm about to give up, I think the words are so important, you know, and just kind of them feeling that whatever they do, you are proud of them and just moving. words of encouragement you know so with homework for instance so my son moved to school six seven months ago something like that he went from a school where he got a bit of homework but not loads to getting a lot of homework he's in year six he's in year six now yeah gets a lot of homework i don't help him yeah with that homework at all and i don't help him with the organization and i don't help him with the organization either yeah because in my mind i'm almost like this is like a trial year before you go to secondary school and i think i want you to learn how to this yourself but then i speak to other people and they're like oh oh my god that mass home went last night was hard and i'm like oh i don't know i didn't do it i didn't look at it i kind of left him to his own devices but now i think yeah he does well then great brilliant you know when you want like i'm wondering should you be sitting with your child while they're doing their home you do yeah i mean it depends on the child and it depends on the parents so for you it's working and for you it works like to sit with them i don't feel like there is a right or wrong answer i think as parents who always beat ourselves up you know is it too much is it too little so and so is doing this and just working with your child almost like shutting down which i know is really hard but you know the reason are right i think everyone is making it up you know Even people that look like they know everything, they don't.

35:42I love that. Everyone's making it up. Everyone's making it up. It is true. So it is. And also, year by year, it looks different. You know, it's like you kind of think, okay, I've got it figured out. Like, you're five. I know what to do. You're six. And then they go to secondary and you think, well, what's that? You know, so no, just like, yeah. Yeah, I think for us, definitely, if it's the kind of going through the maths worksheets, I don't necessarily need to sit with them until they need some help and then it won't be me that helps. But like we were making a river last night in Kit as part of his homework.

36:15And I'm really creative. And I wanted maybe had it been left just up to him, he wouldn't have seen what we could add to it to make it look more colorful. I want to show him that different textures and colors can be used. So that's the kind of stuff that I want to help him with. And Luna, we're making a Tudor project. And I'm like, right, this is my area of expertise. I love this. but um you know the maths absolutely not so yeah I think it just depends on what you're doing here and also they doesn't end in an argument because your relationship with your child is more important than that homework because sometimes I see parents where you know and I've been there myself where you kind of everyone is hating everyone yeah those five seconds yeah but is that really worth it you know the relationship is more important 100 % I know right a couple more my son is year four but is working at year three level how can i support him at home so again like we said um earlier on just finding um opportunities to encourage the learning uh one thing for example with mass which i was saying the other day it's not a cold it doesn't get better by itself you know so if they need help about something you know whether speak to the teacher or maybe someone in the family is good at mass you know just kind of helping them or whatever the the difficulty is but they are very young year three is so young well he's year four but working at year three level but in some um in some countries you don't start school until much later and there isn't like again that the standards are kind of set in a certain way i've worked with students for example like one um that always comes to mind is like there was a girl she was doing a gcse foundation aiming for a five she in your turn she moved i don't know if you know about the higher and foundation but there's anyway there's different exams but she moved to like the um the level up she got a b in gcse she got a star in a level mass and uh she's now a very important like a partner in a very big law company and this was a child thinking i'm rubbish at this i don't know how to do this so children change year four is like their brain is like a sponge you know it will take things and develop at different stages so i wouldn't overstress yeah and also don't pigeonhole because I mean I'm so guilty of this like with my daughter she is working like you know like you have the expected whatever over she's always under in like not everything but a lot of things she's under I think this last year in her report she'd gone up to a lot of expected and I was so proud of her because she's obviously had to work so hard together she's still under in a few things and I think in my mind not like yeah I guess I am I'm kind of pigeonholing her as in like she's not academic yeah and i'm fine with that but in my mind i'm doing that and i think it's really important not to do that and that's given me a reminder to not do that most children are not um scared of the hard work they're scared of like the judgment that comes out yeah a bad exam you know a child wouldn't care much unless that is kind of associated with you are not very clever or you are not very this like the set in maths or science if you ask a child i don't think they would care that much unless um they are being judged as not academic or so yeah i think we need to be careful like the way we speak even about ourselves because like you said your son kind of copying you without not copying but like mirroring the behavior and just letting them just be they will find their place and yeah just cheering along the way so yeah brilliant i think you know it's hard though isn't it as a parent like when you get your their report cards yeah And it's like in colours, like green, amazing, they're overachieving, whatever it is, yellow and then red if they're under.

39:59It's hard to not take that and be like, oh, what are we going to do about this? Because you can't be, but actually, it literally doesn't matter. I mean, if the child is asking for help and says, mum or dad, or, you know, I need help with this, then of course, like help them. And, you know, if you see that they're struggling, definitely help them. But again, I think we need to celebrate trying and having a go more than the final result, because that's a skill they'll need for later on, like a grade. I mean, I don't remember what I got in your four or your five or. Yeah. Yeah. Me neither. I had a great time, though.

40:37Yeah, I think. But you remember the feeling. Yeah. And the friends. Yeah. Isn't it amazing if you said, like, go back to your prep school mates or your primary school mates, whatever. I'm still mates with all of them. I had such a good time. Yeah, that's lovely. Let's just encourage play and happy children rather than putting all that pressure on. I'm saying that to myself as well. Yeah, no, no, same. All of this is, yeah. I mean, I am the same. I've been exactly that place where you kind of think, oh my gosh, what is happening? But no, genuinely, I think we all, as I said, we're all making it up.

41:04We're trying our best. And Belle, where can people, if people want to buy the workbooks or the maths, talk us through that, where? Yeah, so it's Olivia Press Education. The books are currently, the primary ones are very very encouraging you know like especially for like the the primary years you would be doing maths without thinking of doing maths and the secondary ones are like the the more sort of challenging type of questions so yeah it's on our website olivia press education okay amazing thank you so much thank you bell bell cotsman yeah must get all my studying done now

41:48Hello, everybody. I'm Natalie Cassidy, and I have a podcast called Life With Nat. And this week has been very special because I got to interview Andy Burnham, the Prime Minister of the UK.

41:59Belle Cottingham: You know, when I walked up that street for the first time to come into this place, you know, I knew that my dad was, you know, reaching the end of his journey. And it was hard. And I, you know, the coming together of those two things has made a hard, what would have been a hard thing, intensely hard at times. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and let me know what you think. Join our family, Life with Matt. I hope you enjoy.