Friday Q&A: Kate Daly on Divorcing Amicably

0:02Made by Mammas will be here in just a moment. Straight after this episode, make sure you check out the latest from Get a Grip with Angela Scanlon and Vicky Patterson. Spring has definitely sprung and the ladies are hitting reset and sharing all the tips you need if you're ready to step out of that winter hibernation. Plus, as awards season wraps up, they're unpacking some of the biggest moments in their brilliantly unfiltered way. Just search Get a Grip now and get the latest episode lined up to play next. delicious spring gathering start at whole foods market shop the spring and bloom sales event with yellow sales signs throughout the store and serve your loved ones whole foods market seafood always responsibly farmed or sustainable wild caught explore vibrant seasonal flavors like their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake great for brunch or an after dinner treat speaking of brunch.

0:56Check out their deviled eggs, cold-pressed juices, and more. Spring is in bloom now at Whole Foods Market. You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurers in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over$1 ,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy, do yourself a favor. Download the Geri app or head to geri.ai slash ACAST. Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas, the podcast.

1:34I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot. We really have. Each week, we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts, and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, We're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands. And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review. You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at made by mommas.

2:07But for now, George, should we get into it? Hello and welcome to Friday's episode of the podcast. I am flying solo without Zoe again, but she will be back. She's not actually gone. She's just with Luna, who's not very well. But we have had lots of chats about single parenting, co-parenting, divorce, lots of subjects that necessarily aren't something that we know where to turn to. Or actually Zoe and I have much experience with ourselves anyway. But we wanted to do a Q &A on this so that we could help answer your questions with an expert. And today we are joined by one. She is co-founder of Amicable.

2:51She has written a book, Amicable Divorce, Your Practical Guide to Divorce Without the Drama. That sounds great to me. Welcome to the podcast, Kate Daly. Thank you very much. Hello. Lovely to see you. Thank you so much for coming on. And just before we get into our listeners' questions, do you want to just give us a little bit of insight into you, your background, how you came to found Amicable and write the book? Yeah, sure. So my journey started, oh gosh, about 12, 13 years ago when I went through my divorce and my kids were really little. So it was a really hard time. I was a stay-at-home mum and then I had you know the kind of face the prospect of not knowing how I was going to afford to do anything what life was going to be like it was a really tricky and horrible divorce I often talk about it as a train wreck because it literally was it was just very emotional very difficult hugely expensive and because the kids were so little it was just very devastating yeah so on the back of that um I kind of scratched my head at the end of that and thought how on earth have I made such a cock-up of that you know I just sort of took it on myself as we often do and it was only when I started to talk to other people and look into it a little bit more closely that I realized it wasn't just me that was making these mistakes the system actually pushed you into making some of these mistakes and I thought well that can't be right and I feel like I want to do something about that.

4:29So my background is psychology. And prior to having the children, I'd been a relationship therapist. And I thought, well, if we applied some of the principles from relationship therapy to the divorce system, perhaps we could make it a kinder, more human experience. And maybe that would change some of the outcomes. And ultimately, kind of that's how I got the idea from for Amicable and it was really sort of talking to my very close friend who was part of my NCT group so shout out to NCT Pip so Pip was a working mum and she had well she was in the process of selling a very successful business that she had co-founded and that was in technology and she said well you know what I think if we combined your human ideas with some technology to support it, we could probably reach more people.

5:27We could scale something quite big and we could have a company that helped people, but wouldn't just be, you know, this little pocket of Southwest London that we were helping. It would be a much bigger group of people. So that's, that's how Amicable started. Wow. So Amicable, just for those who don't know, tell us a little bit about it. So Amicable is a divorce services company. We do a lot more than that now, but it started as helping people divorce and separate in a kinder and better way. And the fundamental difference between amicable and say going to solicitor is that we work with couples.

6:01And our whole emphasis is on if you've got kids trying to put the kids first and working with couples who have reached the point where the relationship is broken down, but they now need to go their separate ways. So how do we do that in a way that prioritizes the children? That means you can part with some dignity and some respect that you're not dragging your mental health down to the bottom but you're actually being able to function as adults and parents um and move on with your life and you know we know the stats don't we like nearly half of all marriages end in divorce yeah yeah yeah so it's a lot of people yeah and even if it's not you know for people listening if it's not you then it's likely to be someone one of your mates or you know your neighbor or whatever exactly well in our nct group we started off as a group of seven and we've got you know three out of four who are on the cusp of being divorced so it's kind of like which is 42 percent national average yeah exactly so you know it is and no one ever thinks it's going to be them there's a survey done very recently that said that asked people how many people do you think get divorced and most people estimate it's about half which is correct and then what do you think your likelihood of getting divorces and it's like about 10%.

7:16So there's obviously, it's one of those things that happens to other people until it happens to you. And then we're all really unprepared for it. Yeah. It's because I guess no one wants, you know, if you're married now listening to this and, you know, things are great, then you don't want to think about that necessarily but we all know you know even marriages that are you know picture perfect on the outsider and you know maybe both of you feel like that right now things change yeah you know circumstances happen like also we hear about big shocks that completely you know um take people by surprise so I think if you're listening to this and you think that it doesn't apply to you I would still listen because I think it's really good to be informed.

8:06And also, yeah, you might have a friend or a family member who might want to hear this or need to hear this. Just before we do get into the questions, you mentioned the mistakes that you made. Yeah. Just give us, you know, tell us a bit about that. Well, I think the first mistake I made was treating my solicitor like a therapist and solicitors bill in six minute intervals. Hundreds of pounds. So that becomes very expensive very quickly. And I can promise you, even if you think therapy is expensive, it's a fraction of the cost of using your solicitor in that way. So I think you're inevitably looking for some kind of emotional connection when you're going through something which is so huge and so traumatic.

8:52And I think gathering the right people around you and understanding that they all play different roles and knowing who to go to for what is super important. So, you know, doing your homework and making sure if you are going down a solicitor route, you're only using the solicitor to do the legal stuff, looking at other options, because like I said, we've set up Amicable to help people. We can still do all of the legal stuff, but we're doing it in a kinder and more human way. So doing your research and making sure you understand what's out there. I think like me, most people probably think divorce solicitor, that's just the natural link we make.

9:32We're on a mission to change and break that link so that people understand you have a different choice. And if you start on the right foot, you'll then be able to have a much more cooperative co-parenting relationship, for example. So I think how you start off really matters so I made the mistake of treating my solicitor like a therapist and then in those days you didn't have the option that you've got now which is no fault divorce so immediately one of us had to blame the other and when you start off on that foot it's really not very nice because the minute you go down that route and you had no choice in those days you know you're you're setting the tone for the divorce so I think just thinking about those early conversations they really matter yeah so without wanting to plug the book within the first 30 seconds of talking to you reading a book like the one I've written that sets out how you can do this more amicably even if you're sitting there thinking my exes are this or that or they're never going to cooperate they're always going to be awful that might be true but you can still change some of the things you do that would damp down some of that escalation rather than being at the mercy of their awful behavior so I think that's the key yeah because I guess that you know in an ideal world you know you'd be amicable and you'd be on the same page and all of that but the likeliness is if you're getting divorced you're probably not on the same page yeah it's good to hear that even if you know maybe your other half or your ex-husband or whatever isn't playing ball that there are still things you can do as well we'll be right back after this short break

11:41We'll be right back. juices, and more. Spring is in bloom now at Whole Foods Market. You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurers in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over$1 ,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy, do yourself a favor. Download the Jerry app or head to jerry.ai slash acast. Hey y 'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone.

12:18Picture this. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app when you spot it. A brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill too? All right, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast expert setup on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app. Wayfair, every style, every home.

12:47Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? I think we should get into the questions because there's been so many. Actually, this leads us nicely. How to deal with high conflict co-parent always criticising me? It's really tough. And sometimes we say amicable is an aspiration, not the starting point. And sometimes you are dealing with somebody who is never going to be amicable in a million years. And that's usually a signal that they haven't got over some of the emotional sort of difficulties that they're having. And in an ideal world, they'd go off to therapy, come back a better person and everything would work.

13:24But that's not real life. So I think when you've got a high conflict parent, one of the first things to remember is you don't have to co-parent. There are different ways of parenting after divorce. And one of the parenting styles or one of the parenting sort of ways if you're in a high conflict situation is to what's called parallel parent rather than co-parent. And sometimes we talk about it as if co-parenting is like the only thing to do or the best thing to do. and great if you can do that but for lots of us we can't and it's not safe to do that particularly if you're dealing with somebody who's got particular personality traits or disorders or whatever so parallel parenting is a really structured way of parenting with somebody who lacks that emotional control or is deliberately trying to goad or provoke you or as your listener said question everything they do and criticize so when you're parallel parenting what you're doing is setting up two different models.

14:26When the children are with you, you have a model that you use. So you might have bedtimes or screen time rules or routines that you follow. And you accept that when the children go to the other parent, that that parent has their own rules and you don't need to communicate about those rules. You have conversations with the children to say, in this household, these are the rules. And when you go to daddy's, daddy has different rules and people worry about that but it's okay because you know in intact families when you go to granny's or you go to your friend's house they all have different rules kids don't spontaneously combust and you know fail to cope they adapt yeah that is so true I think we always think we have to be totally aligned um but yeah like you say they can go to grandparents and you know it's completely different yeah and yeah I guess it teaches children as well that different environments you know yeah and they have to behave differently at school there are different rules at school to their are at home so you can see it as building resilience in your kids and adaptability and if you kind of try and frame it in that way I think it takes some of the pressure off yeah because even as a parent you know it's easy to feel guilty and criticized the whole time we read so much stuff out there about how to do it the best.

15:47And I don't want anyone to think that, you know, sitting here, I'm sitting here having written a book and being an absolute perfect parent, I am absolutely nowhere close. And I have a really difficult co-parenting relationship with my ex. So it's not that I'm being smug about it in any way. This is really difficult and really hard. But parallel parenting gives you some space. So with parallel parenting, you're more likely to want to use an app to communicate. So Amicable has its own co-parenting app, but there are other apps out there as well. So finding an app that you can communicate through means that you're putting everything in writing.

16:25And particularly in our app, everything, all the communication is in one place. You can download it. So if there are misunderstandings or anything like that, you've got it in front of you. If anything goes really wrong and you do end up having to go to court to sort out children kind of issues. You've also got a documented trail that's all time stamped with who said what to whom and how the arrangements panned out. So if you've got an ex who's being abusive or anything like that, then you can see it. It's evidenced and that can be quite important sometimes. So I think using the parallel parenting method, taking that pressure off yourself so that you don't have to feel you've got to co-parent and make everything look happy clappy, but accept you've got two separate systems, you communicate in a more formal way through an app, or you agree some boundaries, and that can be really important as well.

17:17We're all kind of, sometimes we fall into co-parenting, and we see it as an extension of our parenting relationship. But actually, when you've got a difficult co-parent, it's better to kind of draw a line under the old parenting relationship and start afresh. So you might adapt slightly more businesslike formal tone. You might not use chatty kind of conversational emails. You might try and just bring a little bit more structure into them. And you might want to try and reread and cut them down by half every time you reread them. So just sticking to facts, not opinions or not when you said this, I felt that.

17:56You can do that when you've got a strong co-parenting relationship but in a parallel parenting relationship every word and every sentence is an invitation to come back at you so you want to keep the communication to an absolute bare minimum just based on facts and just because somebody sends you an email remember you don't have to respond yeah you can choose to ignore it yeah that's so true what about like you're saying about parallel parenting and you know one house can have one so everyone's one house can have another but what about when it's things like you know decisions that I don't know where the child goes to school or whether or not they're allowed a smartphone or whether you know like stuff that you can't do that how would how is best to navigate those sort of situations well those two things are different so school decisions yes as a as a separated parent you um both parents are assumed to have parental responsibility unless it's been removed by a judge and therefore you have to come to an agreement on where your child goes to school you cannot make a unilateral decision so that doesn't matter whether you're you know living miles apart or anything like that you still have to involve the other parent in that decision a smartphone if you think about it is a different decision because one parent could buy a smartphone for their child the other parent could say no so you have got that that's not something you can control.

19:24You can control whether the child uses a smartphone at your house, but you can't control whether the child has a smartphone in the other household. So you've got to be able to separate the decisions which have a legal sort of format to them, such as where your child goes to school, and a decision where you're just going to have to navigate the sense that there are different rules in different houses. So with those decisions where you have to involve the other parent, if you're stuck then doing like a a mediation session or we have what we call separation separating the children sessions where you just book a 90 minute session with a co-parenting expert you sit down with with the expert we do it on team so you don't have to be in the same room so it doesn't have to feel like uncomfortable and then we run through a session where we're helping you come to a decision on what's in the best interests of your child yeah and the key with all of this and it's easy to say and hard to do is trying to make a decision that works in the interest of your child rather than what you want or your partner wants or feeling that your partner is controlling you and therefore you need to hold your ground on this one or whatever.

20:34We all go there and we all feel like that but if we can rise above some of that to see what's in the best interests of a children and keeping the children at the centre of the decision that that can help. Someone here has put, we're separating, but we have young children. How do you explain divorce to kids in a way that feels honest, but doesn't scare them? Well, that's a really lovely question, isn't it? So I think kids need both parents to talk to them together, especially when they're little. What you need to demonstrate to children is what together, not together looks like in practice. So what you're going to do is you're going to find a time where they're not rushed.

21:16You're not about to go somewhere. They're not about to leave to be away from you, where you've got some downtime, where you can have a short conversation if they're little. But then you can be around doing an activity together so they can process things and they can ask questions or talk in a way that's not feeling overly formal or structured or something like that. So it just feels natural. but doing it together is really important because children feel safe when both parents are there and talking to them together about things that are going to change but then it's a conversation to say that you've decided that mommy and daddy have decided that we don't love each other in the same way that we love you and actually we think it's going to be better for everybody if we have two separate homes and you spend time in each of those homes so it's talking in that kind of language where you're saying to them we love you and we recognize that we will be better parents if we have our own space and our own homes and that's nothing to do with you you haven't done anything wrong but we think we can be better parents if we're still a family but we have two separate homes and that's the kind of vibe you're trying to give the children that you're still a family because that's really important you are but that actually you can be better parents if you're happy parents and happy parents sometimes need more space than living in one home allows so I think it's that kind of sentiment you're trying to get across to them you definitely need to say in that whole spiel that you love them yeah and you definitely need to tell them it's not their fault even if they're not looking like they think it's their fault you still need to say it and if you can doing it together promotes a really strong this is what being together not together looks like okay yeah that's great um someone here has put i'm really worried about the impact divorce will have on my children long term is there anything i can do to help my kids feel more secure during that transition well the first thing to do i would say is to look at the research.

23:28So the research shows that it's not divorce that harms kids. It's conflict in a marriage that really harms kids. So one of the things to think about is the environment your kids are living in. And if the environment they're living in is one where, and I often get people say to me, oh, but we don't argue. No, you might not argue, but there's an atmosphere. And what are you role modeling to your kids yeah if you're role modeling that we just get on with being unhappy in a relationship what kind of relationships do you suppose your kids will have when they grow up and I think this has become even more important as your kids get a bit older so now mine are late teenagers yeah I'm way more interested in what sort of relationships they're going to form and feel much more confident having had those conversations earlier on saying you know it's not right to stay in a relationship where you know it's it doesn't make you happy you're not safe it feels uncomfortable and those sorts of conversations that you have when they're little that now you can see actually start to play out in their how they choose to have adult relationships you see that I'm kind of the other end of it now to perhaps many of your listeners where at the beginning it's like terrifying because you're sort of conditioned to think you have to have two parents you've got to have an intact home and that's the only way you're going to churn out, you know, normal kids in quotes.

24:54But it's not. I think the key here is to understand it's conflict and what you role model. Your kids are watching you all the time, even if that's the silent treatment or the silent divorce where you never argue, you never do anything, but there's never any love or affection. Your kids don't see you hold hands, have a little laugh together or, you know, squeeze each other or do silly things. That's, you're creating an atmosphere that your kids are picking up on and then normalizing that that's how relationships are yeah so I think it's conflict that damages kids not the divorce itself so if you are going through a divorce and you can do it in a more amicable way you are protecting your kids against kind of the harms that bad relationships have and the impact they have on kids yeah absolutely um someone here has put everyone keeps telling me I'll feel better with time but right now I just feel like I've failed how do people start rebuilding their confidence after divorce oh that's a sad question isn't it I mean yeah I get it I think well the first thing I'd say is don't rush it because it's normal to feel sad and it's a big life transition and I always think this is a transition, not a failure.

26:12I've actually been divorced twice. So I don't consider either of them failures. I consider the fact that they weren't the right relationship for me. And I was able to make my way out of them in a way that preserved kind of my mental health and everything else. So I wouldn't see them as failures, see them as transitions. And when you're in that place, when you're feeling really low I think it's hard to find kind of your mojo again because you've had your confidence knocked um you know your self-esteem is probably quite low so I think at that point it's about finding some very small habits that start to rebuild your own sense of who you are so you don't have to do anything massive but just trying to reconnect with the person you think you are, the person who isn't in a relationship, but what you are.

27:06So if you remember back to when you were pre-relationship, what did you like to do? What were the things that floated your boat? And it might be just small things. Maybe it was a particular book you read that had some importance. Maybe it was doing some kind of exercise. Maybe it was a different kind of hobby. Maybe it was a particular friend you used to spend time with. But I think trying to reconnect with those very small things, not feeling you've got to change anything massive. I don't think straight after a divorce is the time to make the big changes. I think that can come a bit later. But I think if you're in that kind of post-divorce down, then finding the small things that help is really important.

27:46We'll be right back after this short break.

27:52Delicious spring gatherings start at Whole Foods Market. Shop the Spring and Bloom sales event with yellow sales signs throughout the store. And serve your loved one's Whole Foods Market seafood, always responsibly farmed or sustainable while caught. Explore vibrant seasonal flavors like their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. Great for brunch or an after-dinner treat. Speaking of brunch, check out their deviled eggs, cold-pressed juices, and more. Spring is in bloom now at Whole Foods Market. Hey, y 'all. It's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone.

28:28Picture this. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app when you spot it. A brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill too? All right, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast expert setup on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app. Wayfair, every style, every home. You know what's wild? most people are still overpaying for car insurance just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurers in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees.

29:07Drivers who save with Jerry could save over$1 ,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy, do yourself a favor. Download the Jerry app or head to jerry.ai slash ACAST.

29:23welcome back to this episode of made by mommas now where were we someone here has put about finances they've just put i'm really worried about finances i can't see how i can afford to be a single parent i haven't worked for six years i'm really not sure what to do yeah it's a really tricky scenario when you if you if you're not the working parent and you're the stay-at-home parent it can make you feel incredibly vulnerable and that's certainly the situation I was in when I went through my divorce. The law will protect you because the law says that we have what's called the law of equal contribution and what that means in very plain English is it doesn't matter whether you've been the partner who's gone out to work or whether you've been the partner who stayed at home with the children, your contribution is deemed as equal.

30:15So even if your ex has been earning the physical cash, you've been putting into the marital bank at an equal rate. So when it comes to dividing up money and property, then that is taken into consideration. So the starting point from a financial perspective is a 50-50 division of assets. but even that can be scary if you're the person who you know hasn't been at work because half might not be enough in which case you are what's called a needs case so your case would be considered on need and the law will also take into account things like your ex might have been going out to work and therefore is perfectly mortgageable so could go out and get four and a half times salary to purchase a property and might only need a little bit of cash to put down as a deposit it.

31:04You, on the other hand, have a zero mortgage capacity. So you will need all of the funding for your housing need to come from cash. So in that scenario, you might be getting more than 50 % of the assets because your need is greater and you haven't got the luxury of being at work for the last X number of years, earning a big salary and therefore having a mortgage capacity. So sometimes, A lot of the mistakes people make are thinking that 50-50 is fair. 50-50 is equal, but equal and fair are two totally different things. So your worst case scenario might be a 50-50 division. But if your need is greater and you don't have that financial scaffolding that your partner has had because they've been out in the workplace, then that will be taken care of in the legal system that we have in this country.

31:56And the other thing just on that is to mention is pension is sometimes the big thing that people forget. So you're entitled to a pension share if you've been the person who's at home looking after children and haven't been able to contribute to yours. and so many women make the mistake of prioritizing the family home over pension whereas the compounding of a pension means after 20 years that pension asset is going to be way more valuable than the property that you've kind of gone out on a limb for so don't leave pension on the table because it's a really important asset to consider when you're negotiating a settlement yeah you always hear like horror stories don't you both ways you know like sometimes you'll hear like oh you know he took her for everything and she didn't deserve it and did it and you do sit there and you think how is that fair but is it the majority of the time it is fair and we're just hearing like think the media tends to pick up on the extremes because it looks for a great story and people click on it but also there's a lot of still still a lot of sexism in the way this stuff is reported you know you often hear of a wife being given x percent of a husband's fortune and legally that's just not right it's their money yeah and after a long marriage in particular it's a marital asset so no one's being given it it's not the husband is generously giving the wife 50 percent yeah the wife is entitled to 50 percent and the assets have been divided do I mean so I think a lot of the language around this is grossly unfair.

33:33And I think you need to step back from that. And yeah, of course, media stories are predicated on the stories that are sexy and that it's going to get the clicks. But a lot of the time, you know, we've seen the rise of the amicable divorce over the last decade, 15 years since, well, not quite 15 years, but since Gwyneth and Chris Martin came out and decided they were going to consciously uncouple and all that kind of stuff we've seen more and more people turning to doing it amicably because you're saving money you're not giving all of that cash when you need it most to a lawyer and that's really important this is operation preserve assets at this point because splitting one home into two is expensive for any of anybody yeah it doesn't matter how much money you've got the likelihood is you're going to have a difference in your kind of day-to-day living and therefore you need to try and preserve as much cash as possible.

34:28So the more amicable you can be, the more likely you are to preserve cash for the kids and the housing and everything else that you'll need. Yeah, absolutely. Someone's put here, how do you handle big family moments, birthdays, holidays, school events, once you're divorced? Well, again, you know, you've got the ideal world, which is you've had an amicable divorce and therefore those things you can do by just dropping each other a text or an email or it's Johnny's prize giving day see you there kind of thing but that that might only be for a small number of people maybe but ultimately if you can create a scenario where you love your kids more than you hate your ex and therefore you can bear to sit next to them at sports day or you know prize giving or whatever it is or you can do granny's 70th birthday um together then that's going to really help your kids because they'll want both of you there and what you're trying to avoid is a situation where as your kids grow up they fall into the idea that they have to invite one or the other of you because you play that forward to when they're graduating or when they're getting married or themselves or the birth of your first grandchild and it's a question of whether you're going to get to go or your partner's going to get to go that starts to feel pretty rubbish at that point.

35:54So anything you can do where you can still have those big family moments, where you could model being together as parents, but even if you don't particularly like each other or anything like that, if you can suck those up, then that will definitely help. But I think the key to all of that as well is having a really good communication plan with the wider family because the wider family often aren't involved in your direct relationship and they will say things without meaning to but they'll say really inappropriate things or they'll do the wrong thing or they won't invite people in the right way or the right order so I am all for being super slick on the comms on this and I think when you go through a separation you should have a communication plan you should be telling your friends what you want them to know yeah you want them to say yeah you should be guarding your friends back if my kids around at your house and they say x or y this is what you this is what you know this is what i say it'd be really great if you echoed this message and those sorts of things or putting out a statement to your friends to say look this is really tricky time for us but what we don't want is you guys to feel you've got to take sides and we don't want you slagging the other person off or whatever and And having, I think, putting that stuff out there to friends and family is really important and will give you a much firmer platform.

37:23And also it makes friends and family probably feel better because they might not know how to handle it. And they're like, oh, do we invite them? Do we not? Oh, I don't know what to do. But in the case of like, I think that's really interesting about not saying bad things about the other person. And you could practice that in your home and with your family. but what happens if you're sending your kids to your ex's family and they are saying bad things about you i think that's that's a decision when you call them out potentially and i would do it on a one-to-one i would certainly never do it on a group email i might be inclined to speak to my ex first and say look we've got this agreement between us but you know from what i understand it's not being kept up your end do you think you could have a word with your wider family because it's better coming from them than it is from you and I think that's the place to start try and persuade your ex to stand up to their family and to have that conversation and that might be difficult because that might not be how it rolls in your ex's family and again you know that might feel really counter-cultural maybe your ex has never stood up to his parents or her parents and maybe you know they're always the person who the older sister or younger brother whoever you know tells exactly what they think to I don't you know so you've got to be mindful of different families working in different ways but if you can start with your ex and get your ex to go back to their family that is a much smoother way in ultimately if that doesn't work you've got the option of picking the phone up and having a conversation and asking them.

39:06And again, then it's about not doing it in too much of a direct or hostile way, but having a more conversational effect on them where you're trying to get them to appreciate you're not criticizing them, even if you might feel like that, but you're not trying to criticize them. You're trying to see it through the eyes of the children and it's always bringing it back to the children and saying, you know, when those things are said, the impact it has on the kids is X and Y, so being specific. And that's meaning they're upset. And I know how much you love them and I know you don't want them to be upset.

39:44So could if you can't tell them how to feel, but can you keep those kinds of conversations out of earshot of the children? So you're not telling them they can't think or feel or say things. You're just asking them not to do it where your kids can hear and that's the difference so one go to your ex two if you have to have a direct conversation but in that direct conversation it's about the earshot of the children not about changing what they think or say because you won't yeah yeah yeah gotta know when you're being yeah yeah yeah and in the i guess on that is it ever okay to just be like listen they can't go there they can't because they're saying this about me and it's not fair i think it depends on the extremity of what's being said that's what you're trying to avoid because if you go down that road you are headed towards probably court proceedings and children at proceedings and a prohibitive steps order and that's really going to undermine your relationship with your ex so i think you're trying to avoid that at all costs.

40:48But of course, there might be cases if it's extreme enough where that is what has to happen. But that's really absolutely the last resort. It shouldn't be top of the list or any even sort of halfway down. Right. Okay. Last resort. And just to finish up, what do you do if your child seems angry or withdrawn after the separation? Well, anger and withdrawal are two very healthy and normal reactions. So first of all, don't panic. your kid is behaving in a very normal way so let's just accept that kids sometimes get angry and upset when things that they don't like happen to them it's not a trauma in itself I think where you start to worry is if that goes on for a long time so if it's a pattern of behavior that lasts say maybe more than six months or it's a pattern of behavior that is escalating and other other people are noticing like school for example then I think you can take some intervention and some action and the first obviously with all of this the first thing to do presuming your child is verbal is to sit down and try and talk to them about what's going on and again I wouldn't try and have an adult conversation with them in that respect you're trying to be playing with them or going for a walk or doing something normal and just raising how they're feeling and see how willing they are to give you something to work with in that scenario.

42:13If all of those sort of normal parenting things are failing and you know your kids better than anybody else, then I think some kind of therapy, play therapy for example or art therapy is a really lovely way of supporting a child. You might also want to enlist the help of the school, maybe there's a school counsellor which would feel fairly low level and easy to access or maybe it's just talking to their teacher and asking you know is there something else going on at school is their behavior impacting their schoolwork that kind of stuff so you get some extra resource and some extra support maybe it's their sports coach if they're doing sport or something but you can interact with other adults in their lives to try and get a view of where this is happening and if there's something that's helping them yeah and if you are going through a separation should you go to the school and just explain six million dollar question that is I'm honestly I'm really torn on this because on the one hand the more people that know and the more people who are available to watch out for your child and to intervene and to help the better yeah on the other hand the minute you go to school and say something like that, every normal childhood thing that they do will be tagged with, this is because of the divorce.

43:34So if they have a normal falling out at school or normal misbehavior event or whatever it is, if you've been to talk to the school, that will be tagged as, oh, it's because they're getting divorced. So it's a balance. I think it It depends on the school. It depends on the teacher. It depends on how many people. Does telling one teacher at school mean that they have to escalate it? I would find out all of those things. It's a fine judgment call. You know your child. You know the school. If it's an annoying busybody school, then maybe I wouldn't. If it's a super lovely and supportive school, then perhaps that's the right thing.

44:12So I don't have a straight answer for that. I'm sorry. No, no, no. I think it's interesting because I think a lot of people would immediately think, oh I should let the school know because then they can look out for things but you're right maybe then they'll start looking for things that aren't actually there um yeah I hadn't thought of that that's interesting well thank you I'm hoping that that has been really informative for people listening I'm sure it will have been um and just before we go is there any sort of like one piece of advice you would give to somebody or that you would give to someone to tell a friend if they are going through a separation right now?

44:47I think the big thing is you're not on your own. This happens to lots of people and it will feel very personal and you'll feel your circumstances are very specific to you, which of course they are. But lots of people go through this and although you can't see it now, you will survive. You'll be better for it, stronger, and you'll have really resilient kids ultimately. There is lots of help out there. I have my own podcast called The Divorce podcasts where you can hear all people's different stories, different ideas. There's lots of co-parenting stuff. There's lots of individual journeys, which all help to normalize what you're going through.

45:25And I think that's really important. Of course, there's the book as well, which like I said before, you don't have to feel that you're having the world's most amicable divorce to benefit from the stuff that's in there. Even if you're having the most awful divorce, there are tips in there that will help dampen down that sort of feeling of threat and sort of anger so look for the resources they are out there the amicable website has got loads of different help and resources and free tools on there as well and you can always book a free parenting or a free divorce advice call with us as well thank you so much and anyone listening if you've got any feedback on this episode then please drop us a message on at made by mamas on instagram and please come on five star reviews only rate review and subscribe to the podcast it actually does really help i know we bang on about it all the time but it generally does and we'll be back on tuesday

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