Friday Q&A Live at The HoT Podcast Festival: Keeping Our Kids Safe in the Digital World

0:02Georgina Bradley: Zoe and Georgia will be here in just a moment with Made by Mummers. Once you've finished this episode, dive in some of the other parenting podcasts from the team behind the show you're about to hear.

0:11Joy Mbakwe: Over on Secret Mum Club, Safina is not holding back from oversharing on the ups and downs of motherhood.

0:18Georgina Bradley: And on You Don't Know You're Born, Danny Miller, Brooke Vincent and Wingman are putting their acting skills to the test as they tackle their latest parenting dilemma. Just search for Secret Mum Club and You Don't Know You're Born on your podcast app and hit follow so new episodes land straight in your feed.

0:36Joy Mbakwe: Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas the podcast. I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot. We really have.

0:50Georgia Dayton: Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, we're the parenting podcast for you.

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1:04Georgia Dayton: And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review. You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mummers. But for now, George, should we get into it? It's Friday. It is Friday. You got the Friday feeling?

1:18Joy Mbakwe: I have. What are you up to this weekend?

1:20Georgia Dayton: What am I up to this weekend? That is a great question. I'm actually going for a very fancy dinner tonight. Oh, with who? With James and his friends, couple friends. Okay. Couple city friends. Couple friends. No, they're actually, they could, they're old enough to be our parents. They won't like us saying that out loud. But they have got kids in their 20s and I love it, like chatting to them about it. But they are so good at like knowing the best restaurants to go to and like getting a table in places that you can't get a table. Oh, I need to be friends with these people. I remember what it's called, like, eBay?

1:58Georgia Dayton: It's near the studio. Yeah, we're going to eBay. Anyway, it's a really nice restaurant that we're going to. It's near Farrington. We're doing that tonight, so that'll be fun. That'll be so lovely. Yeah, how about you?

2:09Joy Mbakwe: Do you know, I've got a bit of a girls' day with Luna tomorrow. Because Doz is taking Kit to the football with a couple of other mates. They're going to see Charlton.

2:17Georgia Dayton: Nice.

2:18Joy Mbakwe: Lol. So I said to Luna, I was like, what do you want to do? And she was like, can we go to London and have a bit of a shop and a mooch? So we're going to have a girls day, just her and I.

2:26Georgia Dayton: That's lovely.

2:27Joy Mbakwe: I can't remember the last time I did that, so that's going to be lovely. And then obviously like various kids parties and work.

2:32Georgia Dayton: Yeah, the normal stuff.

2:32Joy Mbakwe: The grind. Yeah. But we're bringing you a very special episode of the podcast today because we haven't spoken about this yet because of where the recordings have sort of been lying. But we had our live event in Henley at the Kenton Theatre. And George, wow, what a moment that was.

2:50Georgia Dayton: Oh my God, it was incredible. And I think we hadn't really spoken about it at all because the tickets sold pretty quickly and well. And it was all, I don't know, after Christmas, it felt like it came around really, really quick. But it was amazing. And it's definitely something we want to do more of. So anyone listening that, you know, Henley was a difficult location for you to get to. We had lots of messages. Then we will replicate this. And I actually think we always thought our city centre location is really good, but probably not. Actually, maybe we do sort of get out of London, get out of, you know, all the cities.

3:28Georgia Dayton: Let's go to the regions, babes. Yeah, regional tour. Yeah.

3:31Joy Mbakwe: And it was lovely because it was like 200 people. We could see everybody's eyes. You know, like it felt like we had 200 of our mates there. And there were like diehard OGs. Like afterwards we went down to chat to people and they were like, we're one of the OGs. we've been listening you know for the last eight years and we had photos and we had some brilliant

3:49Georgia Dayton: guests we did we we had two very different halves of the podcast um and the first one we're going to be covering today which was a bit more serious um and something that we talk about sort of day to day anyway like i actually got a message on on email today from the school about inappropriate use of whatsapp pupils in year five so these these kids are nine and ten and they've got phones and they've got phones and they're saying that on sharing of unsuitable images oh shit man mess like inappropriate messaging um it's damaging like all of this stuff i did not expect to get that message today um and we do talk a lot about letting our kids have phones and access to the internet and everything that comes with that but not letting them walk to the shops listen i'm

4:42Joy Mbakwe: sorry i'm just going to say something that's quite controversial here what do you expect when you hand a phone over to a nine-year-old child i know are you fucking mad i know are we mad i know we had a pager that used to beat when we were 15 to be like call home we had to go to a phone box to ring them like i'm sorry but they're children and they're not old enough to be able to handle it so of course they're going to be doing stuff that they shouldn't be doing.

5:07Georgia Dayton: I know.

5:07Joy Mbakwe: I just think the whole thing's gone completely mad. But that's just my opinion. No, no, no, no.

5:12Georgia Dayton: I agree with you. And we really wanted to have this discussion with two people coming at it from different, I guess, different backgrounds. Like one ex-police, one ex-teacher. So seeing the effect that that has in two different spaces. And actually they were quite aligned on their views.

5:32Joy Mbakwe: We also talked a lot about consent, which I thought was really interesting. You know, what sort of age should we start talking to our kids about, you know, about sex, about consent, what it looks like, how do we educate them sexually? That I found that brilliant. We've actually had one of the guests on the podcast before and she's been one of my favourite conversations. Yeah, definitely.

5:53Georgia Dayton: She's going to be someone we have back on, I'm sure. Yeah, definitely.

5:56Joy Mbakwe: It is a live podcast from Henley at the Kenton Theatre. But a massive thank you to the Hot Podcast Festival as well for hosting us there that night. The girls were brilliant. George, let's get into it. So our first two guests tonight are two women who know a thing or two about how to keep our kids safe in the modern world. Georgia and I talk about this a lot personally on the podcast as well, that we're really struggling as our kids are getting older on how to protect them from screens. What's worse? Is it online or is it, you know, real life? You know, do we let them walk to the shops or do we not?

6:28Joy Mbakwe: Do we give them a phone to get there or do we not? So we thought tonight we would open up the conversation to two people who are total experts in that field. The first is known to many as head of operations for Channel 4's Hunted and Celebrity Hunted. Before that, she spent 26 years working across the Thames Valley Police Force. She ended up as a detective. She's a Henley local and passionate about safeguarding, specialising in children and teens' safety and well-being.

6:53Georgia Dayton: Our second guest is an educator, speaker, writer and mother of two. And along the way, she has reshaped curriculums to better reflect people's identities, collaborated with Penguin on educational resources, featured on BBC's Black and British documentary and Radio 4's School of Heart.

7:11Joy Mbakwe: Please, please give a very warm welcome to George Bradley.

7:14Georgia Dayton: And Joanne Backway. Yay! George!

7:20Zoe Hardman: Hi. Hello. How are you? Thank you so much.

7:23Georgia Dayton: I'm the non-hugger, so this suits me. I'm the non-hugger! I'm the non-hugger! I mean, I would hug you, but this, you know, that works for me.

7:34Joy Mbakwe: Ladies, welcome to our live. Thank you for having us. It's so exciting. Have you had a little drink backstage? Sparkling water. Only sparkling water, but you have Prosecco. Great, fine. Obviously, we always like to ask our guests how their sort of day was in the lead up to it. You guys have got how many kids between you? Six? I've got two and two stepchildren. Okay. I've got two. So there's six of them between you. So how do you cope with the sort of day-to-day with having the kids at home and juggling what you're doing? Joy?

8:00Zoe Hardman: Well, sorry, Joy, you go. So mine are very independent. They're teenagers. So I don't. I get them up in the morning. I don't get them. That's not true. They get up by themselves. Do they? They're a very well-organized 17-year-old. The 13-year-old is also very well-organized. I make sure they're out and they've got all that they need. And then that's the end of it until they finish my daughter Rose or some play sports. So our involvement comes at the end of the day, really.

8:23Joy Mbakwe: Anyone that's got little kids and has just breathed a sigh of relief at that stage. It is coming.

8:28Georgina Bradley: Jamie closed my eyes. Wow, it sounds like the future. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

8:32Georgia Dayton: So, I mean, you've both seen children and teens through lots of different lenses. Like Joy, you worked in a school and obviously George, part of the police, and now you work with schools. Now, I think one of the things that Zoe and I talk about a lot is how to navigate keeping our kids safe in the world that we're in now. and we have a lot of discussions between the two of us about like you know is it safer to let them out in the real world go to the shops you know do whatever it is that kids want to do yeah or is it

9:03Zoe Hardman: safer to keep them at home in their bedrooms with their screens online i 100 feel like you need to encourage independence at the earliest possible stage because by not doing so they're going to go out into the real world 18 16 university whatever it is and not have a clue what's about to hit them and I think you are doing them a serious disservice if you don't encourage them to be independent by being independent they're going to develop their confidence they're going to see stuff you need them to see stuff if you keep them wrapped in cotton wool at home when the first time something dramatic happens they're not going to have a clue what to do and so I think we need to build on that confidence and as soon as you can get them going to the shops stay nearby in your car watch them safely in and out but just encourage them to be independent absolutely Very, very important indeed, I feel.

9:51Joy Mbakwe: Joy, why are we so frightened to let our kids go out now? Because, you know, as kids, when we were young, we were hanging out, you know, in parks, doing whatever else we were up to. I was reading a book earlier this year. Yes, I don't remember it. Lowering the tone.

10:05Georgina Bradley: I was reading a book earlier last year, and it was called The Anxious Generation. And it's the idea that we are letting our children be on screens and keeping them cooped up in the home, thinking that's where they're safe. And actually, it's a dangerous place. The online world is dangerous. it's like putting them in the underworld and saying see all you can see find all you can find but you won't let them go to the shops by themselves why have things changed well this writer said that actually we don't have any solidarity as adults anymore before if you saw something happening to a child you would intervene but now actually culture has changed whereby you don't know if it's your place to do anything and so it means that we don't trust each other anymore to make sure that our children are collectively safe and so we think actually we have to do it by ourselves.

10:46Georgina Bradley: The village has disappeared. People are trying to work. The cost of living. So it's just you and your partner just trying to survive. It's destroyed childhood. I absolutely think so.

10:55Joy Mbakwe: Do the kids feel it in school? I mean, you were a teacher for 10 years. What's their take on it through the discussions that you've had with them?

11:02Georgina Bradley: They love the online space. They love it. But they are being, I think, radicalised in so many ways. That's a big word. I do think so. I do think so. It's because people who are speaking to them have no idea about the lives that they live but they're giving them opinions so you switch you i know you go through your phone and somebody says you know men are like this or women are like this and as an adult you have the critical thinking skills to be like does this really apply to me is this what i experience in my offline life as a child you don't have those skills yet so you're absorbing all of this information and you're like okay this is what men are like this is what women are like and they come to school and they say to me yes miss actually women i can't trust them you are 13 and they're learning it online wow they told me who Andrew Tate was I didn't know who he was I said they said oh miss have you heard about him I said who is this and I thought to myself my goodness I think I'm teaching you but your your real teacher is online and your parents have no

11:53Georgia Dayton: idea what you're learning and so what sort of conversations can you have with your kids at home if you sort of get a little inkling that they might be you know taking in some of this content

12:02Georgina Bradley: like what what should we be saying I think you have to face it head on I think there was an only fans later woman i think she's she had sex with a lot of men over i don't know if you heard about her like yeah i can't remember how the number was but the number was very but we're talking about bonnie blue yeah we're talking about bonnie blue i think so i can't remember her name but i i made a video at the time and i said parents you cannot afford not to have this conversation you can't just say to yourself i don't oh it's not my daughter wouldn't do that or my son wouldn't no actually you have to say to them do you know what consent is do you know what do you what do you think i think that's the good the good way to start is say what do you think about this thing that is going on just tease out what's happening in the playground hear it and then you can begin to say well do you think that why do you think she would have done something like this how do you think she felt afterwards have the comment and then you kind of litter your own opinions in there but they have to have the freedom to express what they feel about condemnation if there's any judgment like oh if they say something like oh that's a good career you can't be like oh why do you think that's a good career if you do that shut down yes it's difficult isn't it because

13:03Georgia Dayton: It's because from an outsider, like a young girl who might be getting minimum wage working in boots or whatever while she's studying, and then she's seeing Bonnie Blue, you know, earning an absolute fortune. And from the outside is looking, thinking, well, all she's doing is like what most of my mates are doing at the weekend. You know, getting paid for it. Like, why wouldn't I do that? You know, you can see that that's a hard conversation to have if somebody doesn't really know where they're going in life.

13:31Zoe Hardman: You need to make sure that girls know what it feels like to be vulnerable. Because in my experience, people are hurt victims. They become victims because they're vulnerable. So you need to talk about what makes you vulnerable, what kind of behavior, what sort of things might happen if you are vulnerable. Why would you be vulnerable? Give us an example of that, George. In the police, I investigated lots of rape and sexual offenses, and I was talking to Joy about this. I'm going to say 95 % of the women that were victims were vulnerable, vulnerable for a number of reasons, but had been drinking, which makes you vulnerable.

14:09Zoe Hardman: Now we all drink, I drink, everybody drinks, nothing, we should be allowed to have a drink. And that's a different argument altogether. But ultimately, it can make you vulnerable if you have too much to drink. And I think that's what we need to talk to our daughters about, is what can happen. You need to be on your toes, you need to understand if you're putting yourself at risk, and what makes you vulnerable, on what people do if they see somebody that's vulnerable or could do.

14:31Joy Mbakwe: But for me, that's a little bit triggering because then that taps into me that, you know, it's always the woman's fault or the girl's fault. Like you're wearing a short skirt, you shouldn't wear a short skirt, you shouldn't get too drunk. Really, the conversations have to be had on both sides with our young boys as well to say, you see a girl that's really drunk, you don't try and touch her up. You go around there and say, is she safe? Can I help you?

14:52Zoe Hardman: Yes, and we're teaching that in schools. That's part of why I talk about that a lot in schools. But ultimately, it is of people. Say, I worked on a priority crime team. We dealt with burglaries, and burglars target vulnerable houses. So an offender, whatever crime they're seeking to commit, they're looking for whoever is vulnerable. So it's about teaching kids to be resilient and trying to identify and understand if they're vulnerable and what we can do to change that. Supporting each other, absolutely. That's a massive conversation. And we need, you're right, boys are getting a hard time. I've got a 13-year-old and I'm worried about what's going to happen to him.

15:28He has to really understand all of this stuff.

15:31Zoe Hardman: We need to protect our boys as much as our girls. But I think it's really important to ensure that you are teaching them to be civilised human beings, that they understand consent on a deeper level. And it's a changing thing, consent. If you're in a situation with somebody, they're saying yes to a certain kind of behaviour and that can change. It's just understanding on the deepest level how to respect your fellow

15:54Georgina Bradley: human beings yeah I had a year 10 class once and they would have been 14 at the time and I said put your hands up here if you have been like called out to or approached and you haven't wanted that to happen and all of the girls put their hands up oh my god the boys and I said boys look around you this is the reality right and statistically something's going to happen in the room we just have to read it one in four one in three one in five we have to be different we have to be different. I think having those hard conversations with them, we did it over a course of the years I taught them, but we really drilled down during International Women's Day once.

16:31Georgina Bradley: I did the whole week. I just changed the curriculum. I was like, everybody's off curriculum. Come on, Joy. You're going to do this work. And we had to kind of change their mindsets from like, I think they said something like equal rights means equal fights. The idea that actually, if you want equal rights, I should be able to harm you as a woman and you should be able to take it. That mentality to shifting them to actually, you know, you have a lot of power physically, but how do you use it? How do you use this privilege that means that you're not afraid to be catcalled? You're not afraid to walk down on the street.

16:59Georgina Bradley: How are you going to use that?

17:00Joy Mbakwe: Do you remember sex education at school where I think my school, a police officer came in, let's call him Dave, and he bought a banana and he went, here's a condom, put it on it. So of course I was like, don't, straight away. No, I was really embarrassed. I was like mortified that this male policeman was standing up there going, right, that was sex education. Don't get pregnant. That's all everyone said. Do not get pregnant. And I'm so proud of where we are now, you know, in schools and the conversations we're having at home that it's happening so much earlier. But what age do the schools start teaching the kids sex ed or PSHE?

17:33Joy Mbakwe: And what can we be doing to support them as parents at home?

17:36Georgina Bradley: So I was in secondary school. So pretty much from year seven, that's what we were doing. I think the way to support schools is to begin the conversation at home as early as possible. yeah so my daughter is three years old and she was she was with one of our family friends and her name is grace and grace touched her hair my daughter said wait mommy said nobody should touch me no one should touch my hair she's three years old and so the next time grace had to say you've got fluff in your hair can i can i touch that can i take it out from you she said yes that's fine but i've been teaching her who can touch you nobody nobody can do this thing i'm teaching her about and when she touches me i'm like i don't want you to touch my breasts actually and she's like why mommy why can't i i don't want that right now and i'm teaching her that it's mutual it's absolutely yeah and i said from even when she was just a baby and i'll be bathing her and i'd be like these are the parts she's a baby and it's heartbreaking to have to do this right it's heartbreaking it would bring me to tears the fact that i'm having to educate her to try and prevent this thing that actually is not good it's these things you can't not walk on a dark night you can't not take the drink and then you may mean you mean you can avoid it however i have to prepare you for the world and the world the world that she's living in I know that it can be dangerous but she's prepared she knows that don't touch my hair we'll be right back after this short break

18:52Joy Mbakwe: welcome back to this episode of made by mamas now where were we George you go into schools don't you and talk about consent a lot let's let's discuss that a bit and what and what you're kind of saying and educating uh the kids on well ultimately like

19:04Zoe Hardman: Joyce said I know my son's 13 I know that he had as far as his PSHE curriculum he was uh I don't know who it was that came in to talk to them, actually, but it was a sex education program, essentially, and I think that was the second year's. I have a presentation that I give, and it's about consent. It's about how that consent is ongoing, because it's a transient thing. You can be in a situation with somebody, and it starts off, both of you are engaged together in what's going to happen, but something can change, because the person you're with wants to touch you in a way that you're not comfortable with.

19:40Zoe Hardman: So I'm trying to get people to understand that they can say no at any part. And also to the boys or the girls, whoever is in that relationship with you, that if you say no, or you don't even have to say, it doesn't have to be verbalised, but body language, you have to be constantly checking that what you're doing is okay with the other person. So consent is a moving thing, and it's very important that it isn't just about she said yes, she said no, she'd had too much to drink. because years ago in the police, we didn't, things weren't charged, crimes weren't charged because the female had had too much to drink.

20:14Zoe Hardman: Oh, my God. I mean, it's changing. Thank the Lord it's finally changing. But that would have been enough because somebody would have decided that what the victim had to say, it wasn't strong enough evidence. So we are changing the way in which we teach our children. We're trying to get our conviction rates up. Thank goodness. Violence against women and girls is huge. Top priority for all police forces nationally. So it's about understanding what consent is. The fact that it's a mutual thing is always changing. You need to check in at every stage.

20:46Georgia Dayton: How is the online world impacting our kids day to day? Maybe to do with consent or just in general. What are they learning from being online? Not just from the likes of Andrew Tate, but the people or the things and messages that we might not know as parents. Social media.

21:02Georgina Bradley: I think it's particularly dangerous for young girls. I think what they're learning is that they have to do a lot to be good enough and I think that message is given to us at a really young age irrespective of social media because of how things are marketed to us but I think with the makeup with the hair with the you know when you were in primary school in secondary school there was probably the girl who had the body that you wanted who had the hair that you wanted but it was limited to the secondary school the school that you were in yeah now you go on your phone and it's everybody and I know even as a woman sometimes I'm like I need to put this phone down because I'm not feeling good about my life at the moment after being online like what more of us as a child and I think they don't know that social media influencers are curating an experience for you so that you aspire to them yeah right so I think they're really being I think they're really being shaped to be especially young girls and being told that actually if you do this you'll be good enough if you do that you'll be good and it just it's a moving goalpost because you never actually get this because you never actually get there

21:54Joy Mbakwe: I can't believe how how much earlier it's happening like I have a stepdaughter Isla who's 12 and at 12 years old I wasn't a different generation of course but like the makeup and the clothes and the labels and the skincare she's got like a mini fridge in her room like what have you got in there it's not alcohol no no it's all your skincare I can't believe how fast it's moving and how how much earlier it seems to be happening that the the the sort of worrying concern about appearance

22:18Georgina Bradley: is really there and I think for boys actually it's that now girls are saying oh if you don't take me to this restaurant or this restaurant what restaurants are they going to yeah I think It's like, I want to go to Hakkasan for...

22:28Joy Mbakwe: We all want to go to Hakkasan.

22:30Georgina Bradley: Keep spreading that message. And it's like, I didn't even know Hakkasan existed for a really long time. How are these boys meant to get access to money to take these girls out? It's unattainable. It's unattainable. And so then they're thinking about, how can I get money? How can I get money? So the education aspect. I had a boy really sadly where I taught. He just said, miss, this thing that you're teaching can't make me the money. It can't make me money. But what I'm doing on the side certainly can. Wow. He left school. He left school year 10. He left school with the brightest boy. And he went to go and try and make money so that he could impress people.

23:05Georgina Bradley: And I think that's the message that some of the boys are getting.

23:07Joy Mbakwe: I mean, it's it's it seems I guess what we didn't want to do tonight is kind of scaremonger. I think it's really important that if you're a conscious being a conscious parent. Right. And that you're and that you're having these conversations. That is that's that's good. That's good enough. That's a really great starting point. Keep talking. Right.

23:22Georgina Bradley: absolutely it's so powerful so powerful with parents if you even if you're saying how's your day and they're not saying much how was your day well how's that friend how's this thing you know should we scroll together like you can do things to ask them questions yeah i mean we are

23:34Georgia Dayton: gonna open floor to a q a but just quickly what are some pointers from getting our kids talking because i think at every age that is something that we all want oh my god and they don't want

23:44Joy Mbakwe: to talk do they they get to a certain age and they're just one wording you i i found that my

23:49Zoe Hardman: son spends a lot of time online um outside of the sport he does a time up in knots with sports like i'm sure we all do and that's because he wants to be online for two hours of an evening but the longer they're online looking at the screens almost their responses become somewhat aggressive or they can be yeah so you have to determine for me where your boundaries are set and how much is acceptable in terms of their time because you know it's important they want to relax they've had a long day they've done an extra sports club or they've done some volunteering and dov you know whatever it is that you've signed them up to do and they're willing participants of it they deserve to have some time relaxing with their friends and if that's what they want to do fine but if you notice a change in the behavior that's when you need to start questioning why is this happening and do i need to worry about this and let's talk about this do we switch this off you know

24:38Joy Mbakwe: and it's different and is it i mean if things get really out of control is it ever a case of going in and taking all the screens away and saying right that's enough because we cannot stop them from having screens in life it does look very different to how it looks for us i don't know

24:52Georgina Bradley: if that's the most effective way of changing behavior punishment doesn't really work but education does i was on i was actually online ironically on and once and this woman was talking about the ways in which her mother mothered her which kind of was was like amazing and one of the things she said is that every single tuesday her mother would take her out like to go for coffee or go for tea, whatever. And she did it every Tuesday. Even when she was going for a teenage phase, she didn't want to talk, I hate you, mama. They would still go and they'd sit in silence. And I think that's, for me, it felt such a powerful piece of advice that you just sit with them in the silence and you make time for them and they know, however I show up, I'm still going to be loved by you.

25:28Georgina Bradley: You're still going to want my time. Definitely, we could just take the screens away. But then I had loads of students who had no screens. At school, they get the screen back and they're logging into their account on their friend's phone. I had a phone I wasn't allowed a phone until I was 16 I had one at 14 and I just was keeping it quiet keeping it quiet

25:46Joy Mbakwe: my son's sneaking his watch into school and calling me from the box hello I go what have you got why are you calling me he goes I'm just having a wait I went she's supposed to be in class he goes yeah she doesn't know I've got my watch I was like I didn't know you had your watch he's conscious he's conscious man he loved it

26:00Georgina Bradley: and the more you take something away the more it will come to more luring so I think taking it away doesn't really yeah

26:06Georgia Dayton: but I guess if you've got like a real boundary is it you take you explain why it's not you know like I don't know I've got boundary around roadblocks for instance I'm like absolutely not like we're not getting into this and I sort of explain why I show him articles I say you know I had these people on the podcast and that's the only thing that they've said I'm like yeah I'm only doing it because for you and so far so good but I'm not sure how much longer I can keep like showing the articles and stuff like that I think as parents

26:37Georgina Bradley: we have to accept that our children will experiment with things and they'll do the very thing that you tell them not to do because that's what we will do yeah as long as they know that you're a safe place that they can come to and it's like you know am i going to meet condemnation or love here yeah if i tell my mom i did that thing she said i never i should never do is she going to hug me and be like i understand why i did that let's talk about it yeah when we told what a bad bad bad child i am i think one needs to shame and at least a more closed off relationship and one needs to like feeling empowered and feeling they need to be confident they can talk to you absolutely i think that's the key to overcoming all of this yeah but you said something so interesting on the

27:11Joy Mbakwe: call that we had yesterday and you said too many parents are obsessed with being best friends with their child and it really sunk in with me because i'm like who's your favorite parent who's your best friend and he's like dad's my best friend no who's your favorite parent and i like i don't

27:28Georgina Bradley: want him to be my best friend but I sort of want him to tell me yes I'm sorry Joanne doing everything that you're telling me I understand my second my second born loves her dad and I'm like wow after all of that you love him more yeah I definitely get that and I said to my daughter today so we're best friends you can't be my best friend so I definitely get the allure but I definitely I you have to have those boundaries and say to them you know actually even though I love you we're not actually in your mind you say we're not friends and as a teacher I would find that sometimes I would love them so much and I say to myself well Joy, they're still your pupils and there's a boundary that needs to exist all the time because even though you think they're your children, they absolutely aren't they absolutely aren't and so I think having that in your mind all the time, like being close but being firm having that boundary and having that distance between like, I guess the power of the sense, knowing that when they're older actually, I always say I can't wait to do afternoon tea when my daughter calls me like, oh mum, do you want to go for brunch?

28:19Georgina Bradley: Yeah baby!

28:23Georgina Bradley: That's when it's age appropriate

28:25Georgia Dayton: of course we'll be right back after this short break

28:32Joy Mbakwe: welcome back to this episode of made by mamas now where were we on the podcast we like to ask the best piece of advice that you've ever been given that you would like to share with the audience tonight so can i ask you both george do you want to kick us out

28:46Zoe Hardman: first piece of advice gosh that is really tricky um or joy if you've got it actually So a couple of years ago, my mother-in-law was really poorly, and we were looking after her. And towards the end of her life, I got this fabulous woman in to sit with her during the course of the night, so we didn't. And we were having a chat. I was taking over from her. And she said to me that children need you more when they're teenagers. She said loads of women, men, parents make mistakes by walking them to school, being there when they finish school at 3 o 'clock in primary school, and then going back to work full-time or changing their careers at secondary school.

29:19Zoe Hardman: and actually what when your kids really need you is when they're teenagers so I've set up a portfolio career deliberately so that I am there all the time or as often as I can be so that if there's something that goes wrong if I can help I will I can pick them up so I really believe that often we can make the mistake of thinking because they're small and they're little and they're so cute and they they love you and they need you then we forget just well we've got no idea what teenagers are going to bring and the stress and peer pressure and everything else but they really need you when they're teenagers yeah yeah enjoy the best piece of advice I got was from my mother

29:56Georgina Bradley: when I first had my child she doesn't actually say that much when she like she just said it very clear she said go to the library sort of this baby mom what do you mean go to the library she said go to the library that's how she talked to me I said bet six weeks postpartum on my first kind of walk I go to this library and on the like on the table they have all of these activities for mums and for women like myself and if you've had a child you know how lonely it can be to go from you've had this career you're like seeing people all the time and suddenly your world becomes so small your boobs are really small everything you're kind of shuffling around everything just feels like who am I now my identity has been compromised taken I didn't know I was hanging up for this but what the library did is it opened me up to a world where I felt like oh I still have a place here and so I always say to women if you've just had a child go to the library there'll be a run time there'll be a club there'll be something that makes you feel like every week I go to this place

30:52Joy Mbakwe: and I still matter I still love that no one's ever said that in eight years of the podcast is that two pieces of advice that we've never had that one filled me with slight fear actually I thought it sort of finished or slowed down at like 10 11.

31:05Georgia Dayton: I thought you was going to say go to

31:07Joy Mbakwe: the library I was like why does that scare you I like the library George um what two amazing guests but has anyone got any questions for our wonderful guests tonight? I'm sure there's lots of people. Okay.

31:19Georgia Dayton: Yes.

31:20Joy Mbakwe: Can I get you to stand up, please? To our lovely audience. Hi, Jenna. I've got a girl who's two. I'm really interested. So she will be doing the transition at Bober and Nose to school. And what advice would you give when you're going into school? What should you be looking for to make sure she's set up for a few years? Oh, great question. Thank you.

31:42Georgina Bradley: that's for me so in terms of going when you go into schools I would be looking at the obviously looking at the curriculum I look at the website beforehand so do your website do the research beforehand and have some kind of things that are really important to you is it pastoral care is it how they learn phonics is it their library is it teaching how do they know that they're the children are learning for me the transition is really important so how does even the setup of the room is really important so one school I visited it felt like it was a nursery but I knew it was reception and they did that really intentionally to make sure that you know the children didn't feel afraid when they got there I'm also I'd also be thinking about this idea of like I think it's called continuous play I think that's what it's called or continuous provision this is the idea that you set toys out or like activities out and children are just expected to kind of go around and you know figure it out I want to know how much input the teachers are giving the children and at what point in the day i need to know i do believe that children can learn my child is three i teach her all the time if my child is just having free play but i know that play is great i am an advocate for play but i'm also an advocate for input i could speak about this forever so feel free to find me and i'm happy to kind of give you a bit more information

32:53Joy Mbakwe: yeah that's brilliant great great answer anyone else anyone else

32:57Georgia Dayton: someone over here yeah if you've got children in a single sex environment whether it be school how do you suggest you know conversations and how do you navigate some of the topics around the consent if their main environment is it the same yeah

33:16Joy Mbakwe: really interesting yeah great thank you

33:18Zoe Hardman: well that's a difficult one because like I said they still have the PSHE curriculum so they will be they will be privy to conversations that take place in school. They will have some fantastic outside speakers. I mean, you can bring up topics and encourage your children to talk amongst their friends. And if it's an all-girls school or a boys school, for me, I feel like that should be easier, you know, for them to talk about these things with their friends. If they've got any worries or concerns, we have fantastic safeguarding leads now, designated safeguarding leads, safeguarding teams across all schools.

33:49Zoe Hardman: So if there are any concerns, the school environment is completely different to what it used to be when I was at school in the 80s and 90s. I feel like we've made some serious progress in education over the years. And I can just, all I can say is just suggest it. Talk about it at home. Try and encourage them if they're not happy to talk to you. If they don't feel confident, just try and get them to talk to their friends. They will have that input from the school separately. But if you've got shy kids, it's difficult, isn't it? Because it's, you know, it's an embarrassing topic that it can be.

34:21Joy Mbakwe: But it's, I mean, listen, I'm no expert, but I really, Georgia and I both feel very strongly that we want to be the people that give them the narrative and give them their truth. Because we don't know when we pack them off to school for seven hours a day what they're going to be taught. So I want her, I don't want her to go into, and him to go into school and call it a cookie. I want her to go in and be like, this is my vagina, you know, and name it and have all of that information. Because otherwise they're sort of talking absolute fairy tales and gobbledygook.

34:49Georgia Dayton: It's almost better to be the one giving them the information than them going to seek it. Or like it comes from friends who might have got it a bit muddled up. It is probably, yeah, better to start the conversation at home.

35:01Georgina Bradley: And they're so empowered, right? Because someone will say, oh, this is this thing. And they're like, oh, my mummy said it's not. And that's what you want. As opposed to when I was in school, my parents were deeply religious. So everybody was telling me things for the first time. And I was like, what is that thing?

35:15Georgia Dayton: See, my mum and nan both worked in the family planning clinic. so I knew

35:21Joy Mbakwe: you're just sexy girl although and then I told you earlier on didn't I that when I got back last night Luna said to me oh my god it is amazing that when you and dad had me I just appeared in your stomach and nothing happened and I was like right get in here some stuff happened alright not in detail but some stuff went down thank you guys so much for coming this evening have a drink stay or get home whatever you've got to do but seriously you guys being supporting the podcast means everything to us so we love you lots thank you