Friday Q&A on Raising Teenagers with Rachel Kelly

0:02Zoe and Georgia will be here in just a moment. Now, if you're in the thick of the school holidays and secretly counting down the days until September, why not escape from the kids for a little bit longer by getting another brilliant podcast lined up to play after this? On Secret Mum Club, Safina and Emma are chatting wholesome family holidays and asking the very important question, is travelling with kids actually worth the stress? Oh, and one of Safina's kids has officially entered his free willy era. So there's that. Search for Secret Mum Club and get the latest episode lined up to play next.

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1:45Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas, the podcast. I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot. We really have. Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, we're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands. And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review.

2:18You can also find us on Instagram. We are on at Made by Mummies. But for now, George, should we get into it? Hello and welcome to Friday's episode of the podcast. We are so excited today because we've got somebody who is so knowledgeable around what most people think to be quite a tricky period in our kids' lives. But today we're going to be hearing, hopefully, that it doesn't always have to be that tricky. Best-selling author. Her latest book is called The Gift of Teenagers. It's Rachel Kelly. Yay! Now Rachel, we want to hear that it's not going to be all bad heading our way when we eventually have teenagers of our own.

2:55But before we get into it, just give the listeners a little bit of background on you and how you came to write the book. Sure, so I got involved in writing about mental health in around 2014. teen I wrote a book called Black Rainbow and it was about my own experience of severe depression partly around postnatal depression having small children and I was really lucky with that book because it made it became a Sunday Times bestseller and because of that I had this opportunity to work with lots of other mental health organizations so I became an ambassador for SANE rethink mental illness I became involved with King's College London with their psychiatry department as an affiliate and my interest in mental health just just had this opportunity to start being in the flow of what was going on and then what happened was about five years ago I started getting messages on socials and through my work and running workshops that you know what parents are finding life difficult and teenagers were finding life difficult and so I'd originally started writing about adult mental health my own mental health but I began to pivot to trying to understand what was going on for young people and their parents, teachers, caregivers, grannies, grandparents.

4:09And yeah, so that really led to the book because it was the fruits of a load of research, talking to adolescent psychiatrists, adolescent psychologists, but also teachers and teenagers. And then, you know, experience and expertise, my own experience of shepherding my own five children through adolescence, but it was only partly based on them. We can talk about that because the problems seem to be not so much with the cohort of my older children, but the younger ones. And they are finding life particularly difficult. So I kind of experienced that personally. Anyway, it all came together in a book.

4:49And yeah, I am a positive person. You've probably got that already. Yes, yes. It's a lovely, lovely smiley face that we're seeing today. We're actually recording remotely, but it does feel it feels like the right time to be having this conversation. Both children and I have got, well, my eldest is 12 and my youngest is seven. And actually, my seven year old boy is the one who is struggling to articulate how he's feeling. And he's very much a bottler upper. And, you know, his teacher will be having conversations with me about how he is when he's at school. And I see a very different version. But when I try and discuss with things, discuss things with him at home, he says, I don't want to tell you, mummy.

5:28And I just see this sort of classic male shutdown, which I'm, you know, historically, that's the story that we've been told, the narrative around men that they don't want to share their feelings. So I'm really interested to have this discussion with you today. We've had loads of questions in because it's really important we get this bit right, especially for our young boys. Yeah, I'm going really goose bumpy. I've been doing a lot of somatic work recently, like body work around emotions and feelings. But you're talking about your son. I was at a workshop last week and it was such a lovely idea, which was if a younger child isn't able to articulate their feelings, you create a sort of picture board.

6:09And what they had were loads of different kinds of trains, cars, planes. Some of them were sort of bashed up and looking old and broken. Some of them were shiny new. There was like a rocket about to take off. so instead of uh trying to force that conversation about how you're feeling um the idea was you get your your seven eight year old and you you say well which of these images do you like associate with right now is it the broken down cast or is it the rocket sort of um you know reaching for the stars and it was just so lovely and i saw it in action so that's a nice little practical thing i'm i'm a real one for practical strategies of you know what can you actually do and that might be something to try if you're not getting that kind of communication going with a younger child that's a lovely tip actually because it's funny it's funny isn't it that you can have lots you know he's got two older sisters and they are just the talkers and they're always sharing and there's lots of emotions and then there's this little boy that is very sensitive and I can tell he wants to but it takes him weeks to unlock um obviously don't don't push him but I think maybe he would he would definitely benefit from something like that yeah I mean I'm sure you know all the stuff about open questions as opposed to um you know how are you feeling and then you can get like the one word answer and it's shut down so you want a question which doesn't lead to a natural end a yes or no or a one word answer so you might say something like something really small and sort of manageable like you know um how was it on the school bus you know how was your journey or um even something like what did you have for lunch because you're at least starting a conversation and I know it sounds very sort of modest and it's a long way from you know tell me about how your sadness feels but it's a start and it's a way in and you're just constantly keeping those open answers which don't shut down the conversation do you know what is so interesting to hear you sort of say these things because I think this is all the kind of stuff that as parents with you know school-age kids that we want to build now so that when the problems get bigger we've got the you know the foundations are in place that they will want to talk to us sure sure and and I do think underlying it is that sometimes even when a child says you know I don't want to talk to you or you know they shut it down that there is such a strong longing there for connection and sometimes as we don't see it and we sort of panic and we start to respond about our own feelings as parents so in that situation you can feel really rejected and actually a lot of the work in the book and a lot of the strategies are about minding to your own feelings first and dealing with whatever's coming up for you so that you're in a nice calm place to find that connection and as I say a really positive way to think of it and there's quite a lot of research and data as well that it might not seem it but actually children do want that connection with their parents and actually they want it through adolescence as well so sometimes you have to sort of clear the fog and sort of as I say step out of your own strong emotional response and just hold on to that confidence that that there is a real longing for connection oh my gosh don't we all just want connection that's just that's for me that's what we're doing on this planet it's my where I say to my husband the other night um something about he gets a real um kick out of spending time teaching kids how to play sport because he's an ex rugby player and he just loves it and and and so he said that's what feeds him and I said it's really interesting because for me it's about um sitting down with somebody and interviewing them and having that connection that we can have through that amazing beautiful conversation and then I just looked at him and said but this is what life is about connection that's the one and i was like 100 % in the book i used um at the start you know you can write a little line in a book and and there's a lovely line from a novelist called em forster who wrote a novel called howard's end and he's got this line only connect live in fragments no more which i just oh i said it wrong uh live in fragments no longer no longer only connect seven fragments no longer now i was super interested in connection and one of the big sort of light bulb moments for me um because i'd had this history of anxiety and depression myself i was really worried about would i be able to find that connection and one of the psychotherapists i was working on personally made this comment which maybe sounds really obvious but it was a big light bulb moment for me and she said you know what she said for all of us our main connection is with ourselves so we spend you you beautiful girls you spend more time with your feelings and your thoughts and your emotions than any anybody else so actually we all of us hang out and connect most with ourselves and often what happens in in in family life is we can start to get defined in relationship to others so you're somebody's mom you're somebody's partner somebody's husband someone's daughter whatever it is but I think when we're thinking about connection I just love this thing of coming back to kind of what's the connection looking like you know Rachel's Rachel Zoe to Zoe what how does that how is that um how how is that connection and the basic idea is we're better able to connect with our children we're in a good place connecting with ourselves and we're kind of calm and settled because I think, do stop me, I'm banging on, but one of the most influential interviews I did was with an adolescent psychiatrist and she was really, really interesting.

11:49She was working therapeutically with a troubled teenager and she created these stick figures like mum, dad and troubled teenager and the two stick figures of the parents fell over and the teenager was completely mortified and distraught because when a child or a teenager or tween is really overwhelmed with their own feelings they literally cannot cope if we're overwhelmed too so we've got to work on that connection in that sense of our own kind of calm yeah oh I've got loads of questions I'm just yeah I'm feeling the connection so I'm really going for it good good no it's great someone here has written in I had a six-year-old daughter who's super independent already which is great but sometimes I feel like she doesn't want to spend time with me what are some low pressure ways to bond with a kid who's already pulling away that's interesting I think I would say something which is almost more philosophical than practical which is actually relevant whenever you really have a strong emotional desire for a response in your child which is that we can't shut down that response so this this person is saying she'd love that connection um I think one thing to do is always just honor that desire you know you would love it and I would love it um and there are ways to do that some of the mindful exercises some of the breathing exercises just being really present to that strong feeling of that longing but we can't always force an outcome so sometimes if you actually if the if the end result is you would like ways to hang out with your child sometimes you want to take a step back and slightly change energetically which is as i say to honor that feeling but to take away that pressure that you're going to force it on them there is nothing that any child in my experience and working you know with so so many years now they do not want to be forced so if you try and force a child to say come on let's go hang out in the park or you know let's let's go and see a movie or whatever it is, if you try and force them, they're much less likely to do it.

14:01So I'd go a step back. And then I think, again, you want to appeal to even young children. I mean, it gets really massive for teenagers is this desire for autonomy. But even younger children, they have a strong desire for autonomy. So a really practical thing is, you know, can they lead the way? You know, what would look like a good time for them? um one one thing i used to do when my children were younger was this idea of special day and it's an interesting idea because it plays to lots of interesting psychological um kind of approaches so the first thing is a routine so one day a week you have a special day um it's a bit like therapy therapy works really well if it's if it's an orderly weekly event that you've got a special day um it appeals to a child's desire for autonomy so they might they they might um wait and say no i can't do it now but i'll do it with you on special day when when it's established that you're going to hang out together for me i literally used to take individual children out for a cafe that was like the big to a cafe that was like the big treat like a baby chino or a drink but it was the ritual and the fact that it was established there was less negotiation and less arguing because it was something that just happened yeah so is it is it important to spend one-on-one time with your children if you've got multiple kids in your experience i think so i mean i i think that um obviously there's a different back to connection there's a different relationship energetically and they thrive with your focus and they thrive knowing especially if you've got more than one child they know that you've had to put something aside to have that time with them and i think you know i think that they're not stupid they figure that out and i think there are different emotional intimacies that can happen one-on-one that just literally cannot happen in a wider group other things can happen and there are virtues to them too but yes sure if you and I know it's hard because if you're working and I was lucky because my mum lived across the road and that meant that even though I had a big family I did have ways to carve out these special days and I think as well you can carve out that time into like you said into your weekly routine like for instance I know on a Monday Gigi has her swimming lesson yeah and there's half an hour where Axel and I my son will just sit in the cafe at swimming and like we usually get something that she doesn't like you know like I don't know whatever he gets a smoothie or whatever and we go we'll sit and have that together and have a chat and he knows he's got that time with me just like one-on-one I'm not at home I'm not doing other bits and bobs and we have to see it's just half an hour but I do find he talks more in that time even saved up things in the week to share yeah it just it's just and then yeah and she has the same it doesn't have to be fancy and then a lot of it as well so I think um I've worked a lot with working mums who often feel this kind of mum guilt because they're not around and obviously working dads too but um one really nice attitude is you care you care more because you may not have so much time so if you've got that half an hour but if you're really focused and you're not on your phone yourself and there are lots of communication tricks to really demonstrate that focus um you You know, all the communication things, so leaning in, like looking them in the eye, asking them a question, fully being present.

17:44That has a different feel to the communication and that feeling of connection. We'll be right back after this short break.

17:54At Boar's Head, we've been going back to school for over 115 years. And this year, every school lunch is reason to celebrate. with the flavors your kids love and the exceptional quality you expect. Helping you make school lunch fresh, easy, and delicious. Ring the bell. The deli is open. Orzette. Committed to craft since 1905. Thumbtack presents Tile Trouble. Every single time I use my sink, I make eye contact with the uneven grout on my kitchen backsplash. the crooked corners eye me and i'm haunted by more tiling questions than i thought possible what kind of pro can fix a backsplash can i replace one cracked tile or should i replace them all what what if i just use thumbtack i can hire top rated pros read reviews and compare prices with a tap all on the app thumbtack knows homes download the app today it takes the hits runs the miles rebuilds while you sleep it's felt every fall every dance floor, every belly laugh.

19:03And in return, it asks for nothing. It just keeps going. I'm Ellie Taylor and this is Back Your Body, the podcast from Holland and Barrett that's all about the most loyal relationship you'll ever have. The one you have with your body. From scars to self care, the bits you love and the bits you've learned to love. We're talking to people about the bodies they live in, how they've pushed them, neglected them, rebuilt them, or finally learned to listen to them. It's time to back your body the way it's always back to you. Back your body. Subscribe now. Your body will thank you.

19:40Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? And do you know what? Something that we don't do as our kids get older, obviously, but when the babies come and we're taught about the importance of skin on skin and the connection that that brings. Now, we run a naked house here, so we're We're constantly walking around naked and it's just our thing. And my husband leads the way and we follow. But the kids have no sort of worries about that. And they, you know, maybe my eldest is a bit like, I don't see that anymore, dad. And I'm like, please put some pants on. But I really love having that moment with them where I've just woken up in the mornings and they come and climb in and we are skin on skin.

20:14That for me brings a really, really deep connection that I know that I only have for a short number of years until that won't be an option for them anyway. They won't want to do that. but there is something so beautiful isn't there about that real sort of moment that's quite animalistic and it's just the two two of us together that's really lovely 100 i mean there's a there's a really nice book called the five languages of love i don't know if you've come across it but it's about the idea we could express love in different ways so there's the physical affection and the skin on skin there's um telling somebody you love them there's giving them a present actually and um there's an act of love you know whether that's taking them swimming so there are different ways or and actually it's interesting some children and you become more aware of this are sensitive to different kinds of uh languages of love and you can tune in you know some children are particularly needy for that physical affection and you know you can start to be very responsive and by the way i think teens still need hugs oh yeah even though as you say um they might maybe with a t-shirt on yeah they might always might might be um you know they might be embarrassed because there's so much happening to the teenage brain so they've got this back to autonomy huge desire for autonomy huge thing around peer pressure and also they're way more sensitive uh there's a sensitivity thing happening all of which means they might not want you to hug them in front of their friends but that doesn't need to say they wouldn't still like a hug and the interesting research on hugging I found really interesting was...

21:47Oh, yes. I love this. Well, it was just to hold that hug slightly longer than you think. So just that extra few seconds, the sort of serotonin kicking, just if you give yourself that little bit longer, you know, we tend to be quite done and dusted. Yeah, quick. Yeah, especially at the school gate and things like that, where you go, bye, see you later, cuddle, off you go. But yeah, if you do, you hold on a little bit longer. The Disney characters, I don't know if you know this about the Disney rule, but the Disney characters are taught that they are not allowed to let go of a child until a child has let go of them in a hug.

22:22Oh, I love that. So if we bring the sort of Disney theory into our day to days, apparently that's a real release of serotonin. And that's really important. That's really interesting. And sometimes if you've got it, well, you know, at all stages, but again, you can be really sensitive. So, for example, one of my daughters, she wasn't a great one for hugging, but what she wanted was a back scratch. And that was her way. And you know that whole thing of car conversations and you're side by side and so you elicit a more open conversation. That was the time when she was not facing me, but she wanted a back scratch.

22:57And that was when I heard about, you know, the mean girl and, you know, trouble at school. But it was so interesting. So, again, it's sort of being sensitive to what that looks like for them. you know meeting them where they're at I was doing some training recently with Samaritans and they were talking about somebody who was on the line who was completely devastated about the loss of Felix and Felix you know she didn't know she couldn't didn't want to get up in the morning because there was no purpose she couldn't give Felix breakfast and there was nothing to do in her day because there was no Felix etc etc it turned out that Felix was a cat and it was really interesting because what the training was we were all listening what what the training was was sort of meeting people where they're at so of course everybody thought oh felix must be a child you know but actually that that principle is really really interesting of trying to meet every child where they're at and sort of stepping away from your own expectations and what's about me and what's about them and i think for example um when i've been doing a lot of work about smartphones and smartphone addiction.

24:02I mean, I think this might sound a bit radical, but I do think parents need to address their own strong feelings of rejection, you know, which is so often, they just feel so bad themselves because that child would rather be on their phone than talking to them. So we want to come out... That's interesting. We're sort of calm ourselves. But do we think... Because I've never seen it as me feeling rejected. It's not about them choosing... because only one of my kids has it, the 12-year-old. Yeah. It's more about, I don't, in my mind, or at least our generation, myself and Georgia, we've been programmed to think that smartphones are destroying children.

24:40Yeah, the devil incarnate. So we can only see exactly the devil incarnate. The bad. The bad. And so I'm constantly like, oh my God, you're rotting your brain and you're not going to be able to communicate and you won't be able to have any relationships and you're going to be like that all the time. And it's just this constant horrible video take, like a horror movie that's playing inside my mind. Sure. So I wish there'd be a little bit more calm around that. Yeah, I mean, I think... You know what? Sorry. Well, no, I think that possibly when you're dealing with slightly older children, then I think that they do not like being told what to do.

25:11I mean, young children don't always like being told what to do, but there is still a sense in which we are the gods as parents and they will listen to us. So there's an interesting thing that happens. It's called individuation. And there's a guy called Eric Erickson came up with a phrase and it's basically that process. And it can start quite young, 10, 11 even, when this is sort of this separation and teenagers are sort of going their separate way. And the point being that because of this sort of separation and this individuation, some of the strategies you might have used when they were younger around phones may not work so well when they're older.

25:45And just telling them no, you know, it's a bit like the war on drugs in America. You know, don't, don't, don't do drugs. like the more you say don't do something the more it doesn't work yeah and because it then can become quite an emotional process for you and it can become a power struggle you can get quite hot and bothered especially if what you're asking is not happening and that as I say that element of rejection so say you're trying to still have family meals which every bit of data says is a good idea if you can for as long as you can and you just can't make it happen because they're on their phones you know you're going to have to work out what what can you do first of all with your own emotional regulation and your own thinking styles before you come to that conversation with older children because it's it's going to be more effective if you're coming from a quite a calm place you've dealt with your own feelings first because you know there's obviously the whole thing about you feel like you've lost them when they're on their phone and all of that kind of stuff I don't know about you like and so like when i used to get home from school and this was definitely when i was in primary school like i remember it because i remember the friends i'd left my friends at school and then we'd be on the phone like on the phone talking for hours hours and hours and i remember my mum used to be like have you not run out of things to talk about and i'd be like no and we would we'd be phoning each other and be like on the and i guess but i didn't get a phone until I was 17 I didn't get phone until I was 17 and I'm seven years over the house phone yeah I literally I'd bicycle home from school and I'd just go straight up to the phone used to be in a cupboard I'd go up to the top floor and then there'd be a fight with my sister like who could be on the phone longest yeah and that that's we used to do that which I guess is okay there's a lot more to it with smartphones because you know it's not just one person on the other end of the line and safety and all that kind of stuff but I guess if we're talking about the premise of losing a child because they'd rather be talking to their friends on their phone it's the same no you're right like as we did in some way and I'd come back to the fact that you know if that's upsetting to you then you as so even your mum saying you know have you not really got so much to say what about talking to me you know you've got to you've got to kind of cope with that as as a parent first oh my god no one's ever said that that's so that is absolutely spot on isn't it that's just triggered something inside of me big time it's like well hang on what about me I've given you everything can you not talk to me for a minute yeah yeah yeah and and I think that's um a lot of the gift to teenagers is sort of about these really strong feelings that come up for parents you know anger like no one's listening to me bloody annoying uh you know a sadness a grief there's some really strong feelings that come up and so we've got to find good ways and I think because I'd had my own history of depression and anxiety I was already really interested in emotional regulation strategies to be with difficult feelings how was I going to manage and of course yeah I wasn't so good with the earlier ones but I got a bit better with the younger ones but then the problems got worse with the younger ones so lucky I had done quite a load of work by then yeah yeah and actually you know what you only learn when you go through the experiences by the way yeah yeah and that's very true I think that's why I called partly called the book the gift to teenagers it was slightly to change this narrative but you know we can we can find psychological growth in loads of different ways and raising teenagers isn't all raising and each family is not the only way but it is a very intense experience and it is a way that we can come through sort of older and wiser and that is a gift and teenagers give us that gift they give us this opportunity and then they also give us this opportunity to build a relationship which is why I don't really go for this sort of empty nest thing because I think yeah yes it's a different relationship I mean they're not going to ask you you do you don't need to wipe their bums or drop them at school or all the sort of you know it's not based on need they don't need you in the same way they don't need you they can cook their own spaghetti bolognese but that's not to say there isn't a love relationship so we're still waiting for that hold on a minute that's one dish I can actually do you take that We'll be right back after this short break.

30:32Orzette. Committed to craft since 1905.

31:01easily compare prices and read reviews. Thumbtack knows homes. Download the app today. It takes the hits, runs the miles, rebuilds while you sleep. It's felt every fall, every dance floor, every belly laugh. And in return, it asks for nothing. It just keeps going. I'm Ellie Taylor, and this is Back Your Body, the podcast from Holland and Barrett that's all about the most loyal relationship you'll ever have, the one you have with your body. From scars to self-care, the bits you love, and the bits you've learned to love. We're talking to people about the bodies they live in, how they've pushed them, neglected them, rebuilt them, or finally learned to listen to them.

31:40It's time to back your body the way it's always back to you. Back your body. Subscribe now. Your body will thank you.

31:52Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? Okay, this is interesting because sometimes I get this just before bed and I think probably everybody listening, and you, George, you can nod as well, that the questions come thick and fast just as you're trying to wind down for the evening and put your little ones in bed. My daughter is seven. She asks a million questions about the world. Sometimes I get frustrated or brush her off, but I know that might be a misconnection. How can I be more present? And that's from Sarah. Well, what I would say is I'm a huge, huge fan of this.

32:22I said she can't make a mistake, Sarah, if you're listening. I think we've gone really far down this line of sort of judgment around parents and sort of right wrong and actually one of the bits of research I was so interested in is this sort of rise of perfectionism and that we've got to be perfect and we've always got to be available for every question and we've got to be perfect we don't we must never lose our own rag etc etc I know I've been talking about strategies to stay calm but having said that it's fine not always to have the energy to answer those questions because we need to model the fact that we have boundaries and limits and we need to look after our own selves first so literally the best thing you can do in that situation is say you know I'd I really love to talk to you and you know right now I'm really tired I've you know I've you know had a long day at work or whatever it is um can we can we find a time maybe back to that special day you know I'd like to come back and answer the some of these questions and that is teaching them so much which is about the fact that there'll be times when they haven't got time for us and they're not going to talk to us and if it's done respectfully and with boundaries that is amazing modeling to them and if you slightly lose it please just it doesn't matter we've really this perfect parenting thing is just really where it really bothers me it's led to so much trouble um and and you know the whole online thing of seeing perfect parents etc etc um you know I've made so many mistakes I'm thinking of making some more

33:59I'm thinking of making some more are we supposed to be available for our kids 24 7 seven days a week is that a question or is that what that's the question well no I mean I think you know what I mean the whole sort of oxygen oxygen mask strategy we want to be available for our kids when we're in our you know we're on on the whole on on good form having made that point about you know you can't make a mistake and I'm really anti this sort of judgment of the right wrong thing it's it's judgment's just got so big in parenting and and in the world and in fact I know teenagers particularly so worried that we're going to do something wrong um but the but the thing is is we we want to come not just to our to our kids but in general we want to come to relationships when we're on good form so you know it's a bit like a bucket if the bucket's empty we've got nothing to give so obviously if you're doing 24 hours you're not going to have that resource or that um wisdom or the calm to really fully engage in the best way possible look take example this podcast i'm so excited to chat to you guys if i did 15 podcasts in a row, I would not be my best self coming to the podcast or able to share what I really felt and thought and being really honest about it.

35:16And yeah, so I would apply that. No, you can't be a rave all 24 hours. You can't. Let's get into it. And you know what? If you look at evolution as well, sorry to go on about this, it never was the case that it was supposed to be one-on-one 24 hours. I mean, life is so tough for modern parents because, you know, it takes a village and so often that village is not available. And so many single parents who don't have that background and support But, you know, back in the day when we were all on the savannah in sort of smaller groups and tribes, the classic thing was 150 people and it was much more collective effort.

35:47And so, you know, we're going against nature. Yeah. And someone here has put my 13 year old shuts down every time I ask about school or how she's feeling. I don't want to pry, but I'm scared I'm losing her. How do I keep the lines of communication open? so how with like a 13 year old can you sort of ensure that they still want to tell you stuff without feeling like you're prying well I'm sorry to say this but you know what you may have to accept that they're not going to talk to you for a bit I mean I know that sounds really tough oh god um that's why I say you know you really do have to work on yourself and not overly reacting and not necessarily thinking it's a huge drama.

36:36I think another thing that I noticed, you know, researching the book and talking to people is this, there's this sort of slight tendency that, that, you know, we overreact and we see it as a big drama. You know what, if for a period, a 13 year old doesn't want to talk to you for all that we know about what's happening to their brain, that's okay. As I say, you might have to sort of honour that love that you would love them to next but there may be for a stage uh that perhaps that you can't force the outcome um if you want sort of practical ways uh to make that sort of outcome a bit more likely um one thing is well we talked a bit about the language of love so what language do they speak can you line up with that language and another thing is that sometimes we may just have to communicate in a new way so um I remember interviewing one parent and her daughter had checked out and she thought well you know what I'll I'll speak her language I'll send funny TikTok videos I'll send funny little emojis and she started to do it and initially nothing much happened and then she started to get a little bit of connection back and then a little bit and a little bit and then you know conversations began to follow so we may just have to step away from how we think we communicate to how they're communicating that's it do you know a lot of people say that with you know like kids who like love gaming or like something that that adult doesn't really have much to do with yeah and rather than we've heard lots of people saying it rather than being like oh get off your game come on come and speak to me come downstairs it's like joining them yeah even though it might not be your interest it's like showing interest in their interest yeah because then that's where you might find the connection 100 and i think there's a really really big area of sort of emotional work here which is around control which is very interesting and it is very very natural for parents to want to control their children and obviously there are issues around safety and andrews that we do you know i'm not saying have no control but i think it's interesting to notice where you're trying to be controlling where you don't necessarily need to be controlling and often control well it quite often goes with judgment so right wrong so you control people by making them wrong so they're wrong to be gaming you know they're wrong not to communicate with me no they're not wrong they are different and I think the image that a lot of parents found really helpful in the workshops is put on your fridge a picture of flour and a picture of a weed you see a weed I see a flower I see a flower you see a weed we just see things differently and and you know young people teenagers even younger children they do see the world differently and they are different and that doesn't make them wrong and it doesn't mean that we have to force that control on them about and making them right wrong well in your opinion what is the biggest thing that we can do to mess up our young people today because I was talking to my mum she came over from Kenya it's a big it's a big question but I'm really interested and I grew up in a very free household where there weren't really any rules my parents were quite kind of free and hippie and they you know I went completely off the rails because I was probably given just too much rope I came back quite quickly but there was a period of yeah what do you want to call it carnage um and And she was like, you know, I knew you would come back, but I just probably got that side of it too wrong.

40:08Other people say, oh, very strict parenting. Your kids are going to go off the rails. So you kind of don't know what that sweet spot is between giving them the space, talking to them, holding them, but also giving them the freedom to go off and be young people. And I wanted to just you've done so much extensive research. What do the teenagers say? um well one thing that's interesting is that if you ask teenagers what their concerns are they're not necessarily the same as parents concerns so we parents are really obsessed with social media and smartphones they're not their real concern actually right now is academic pressure at school they're worried about getting jobs and the state of the world so that's already before you even start is just to acknowledge that um what you're concerned about in terms of what you think is frightening in the world may not necessarily be what they think is frightening in the world and the problem we've got is that the world is changing really fast so our knowledge as parents is on the whole pretty thin and actually a big part of the book was just sort of trying to say okay this is what's happening right now in the drugs world this is what your teenager is going to be experiencing i mean maybe we went to the back of a pub and i don't know tried to school some cannabis or something it's so different their experience of the risk and threat of drugs in such a different way you know there's on their phone list of emojis they do a meet up they meet an uber down the road it's all clean so having um to your question are they buying sorry what are they buying uh well i mean lots of different things but the main issue right now seems to be ketamine ketamine because yeah see I can't even pronounce it if my teenager is my children they go you can't even pronounce it but ketamine yeah because it's cheap and it has a really it has a really big impact so here's the thing um if we're trying to get as you say that sweet spot between over controlling and boundaries and um you know letting them do whatever they want um I would say that we do need to be informed we do need to know a bit about their world and I have to say I thought I you know I'm really interested in all this stuff I did learn an awful lot about what the reality of their world is and it is very very different for us and I think if you're trying to set good boundaries it's respectful to them and they're more likely to listen if at least you have some sense of the pressures they're under and how their world works so take if you take um and then what you really want to be doing or what I found was most effective and indeed the research and I'll tell you a bit about that research because I found that so so so sort of liberating in the way is a good strategy is you set these boundaries and rules together so like what is sensible you know you don't just come to them with it you do it because yeah that makes more you say do this the less they're going to do it but if you say look let's say I want you to be home at 11 the reason i need you home at 11 is i've got to go to work the next day if you're home at two in the morning i will be up i won't sleep i've got to pay the bills i've got to go to work i need your home at 11 can we agree that 11 means 11 and and if that's okay so that's a good way to get that sweet spot between letting them do whatever they want and sort of being over controlling um oh my god that's that's i haven't even thought about that i'd like to go spend at 9 30 yeah i think i think yeah i mean the other thing which i really really love and it seems so effective there's a bit of research it's called uh the pygmalion effect sometimes it's called the rosenthal effect and that is all about expectations so if we have high expectations of how they're going to behave and we can we can feed into that with sort of practice conversations like if somebody offered you a drink and you didn't know that person and you were worried that they might have spiked it can we think of some words that you could use ahead uh even a really simple one is you making your own mum into a complete dragon like i would love that drink but my mum is crazy about drink and i cannot yeah and you can blame blame your mum or whatever so you have a you have a pre you practice ahead some good ways out of trouble but also you have this expectation and the more you have a high expectation that your teenagers are going to behave well and sensibly uh they're more likely they are to behave well and sensibly so if you start from a panicky remember we've got this constant theme keep calm yourself if you start from free camp panicky dangerous world out there you know they're going to have a disaster that's more likely to happen and i know that sounds crazy but if you know because you're yeah i know yeah we can they're saying that about these parties that they're having in the park and they're all going to drink in the park in in daytime um it's not even like through the night or anything and lots of the girls don't want to go they're feeling pressured to go so one of my mum friends she makes up a pre-mixed um like what looks like a water bottle but you can see through it and they put various things in it to make it look like alcohol but it's not so that she can then go to the park she's like oh yeah no I've done this I took it from whatever and you know so that she because it's a lot of it is about saving face they're so upset and worried about the peer pressure that actually she doesn't go to these parties even though she she doesn't want to go she's extradited from the group and it's a really bad time for her so another really nice one which um people seem to find really helpful is the buddy system so um the peer pressure thing is quite interesting because it's not just a blank slate that teenagers are always influenced by peer pressure they're influenced by certain kinds of peer pressure which is they're incredibly sensitive and extremely conventional so the cliche is that you know teenagers are rebels no they have a very conventional view of what is glamorous which is a certain kind of body look for a woman and you know sort of tall blonde skinny and a certain kind of macho look for a guy now peer pressure really plays in in those sorts of groups of teenagers who are thought to be glamorous so if you're hanging out with that very glamorous group you're more likely to take less good decisions so the buddy system is that before you even get yourself into that situation you team up with a friend who you know whether they're glamorous or not you've you've established ahead that you're both going to look out for each other and you're going to be sensible to to an extent so you know if your friend gets completely smashed you know if your child gets completely smashed you know that they've got someone else yeah and and that's just so practical but you know it's just it's sort of dial someone taking care of yeah yeah exactly yeah and also i guess someone else like having someone else like as a teenager if you're lucky enough to have that best friend that you can be really open with like together like oh my god we're really scared to go to this thing but we want to go but right let's agree that we're just going to do this and we're just going to say this, then that's like, I guess that's an incredible thing to have.

47:18And I guess that comes with like proper friendships. Yeah, yeah. And you can also use the other person. So, you know, Mr. Jorkins is a hard man. That's a line from Dickens. But this idea that you can say, well, you know, I would love to have three more drinks, but actually, you know, my friend, you know, she says no. You can defuse the sort of negotiation because there's somebody else involved. How do I connect with my 11-year-old without turning into me giving advice or lectures? I want to be someone she can talk to, not just someone who fixes things. Okay. Oh, my God. Well, this is maybe a bit radical, but never, ever, ever give advice unless asked for.

48:00I know that's hard because, of course, this is back to managing your own feelings and your own strong emotions. Of course, as parents and mums, we're longing to give advice. But the real truth is nobody's going to listen to advice unless they've asked for it. And actually, you can even formalise it. So you can say, would you like me to give you some advice or would you like me to listen? And it's really interesting. If a child or a tween or a teenager then says, I would like some advice, that advice is going to land on really fertile ground. and they're really likely to absorb it and make the most of it.

48:37Whereas if you just jump in and say, you know, X, Y, Z, it's much less likely to sort of resonate. But it's really, really hard, and I only got there towards the end of my... Yeah. Do you know what? My husband has this with my son after, like, a football or cricket match or whatever. Oh, God, I know what you're going to say. In the car on the way home, they used to have these massive bust-ups. Spare anyone, he's still eight. He's nearly nine. But like this has been going on for years. And he's always, you know, he'd get in the car and he'd be like, you know, you should have done this. And this should have happened.

49:10And then they'd have a big fight. And it was just like, oh, my God, this is so annoying. Now, he says to him, do you want to talk about the match or not? And Axel will sometimes say, no, I don't want to talk about it. And then they go, right, okay, fine. Great. Do not speak about it. And sometimes he says, yes, but I don't want to talk about this part. Or yes, but I only want to talk about this. And I think it has been a massive change. They don't come home not talking to each other and sulking anymore. Yeah, great. And talking thing is really interesting. Just one last thought on talking, because I know we've probably got to wrap up.

49:48But I came across some really lovely research that nine o 'clock is the golden hour. I don't know if you know about this. so one idea with teenagers and adolescents is that their circadian rhythm is different so they get up later and they go to bed later and their peak communication and connectivity rough time I mean obviously slightly depends exactly what time they got up around nine o 'clock so we're winding down a.m or p.m. p.m. in the evening so we're winding down we've had a long day our sort of tendency to be bossy and give advice and tell them what to do probably is at the worst first thing in the morning like come on get get ready let's get to school blah blah blah nine o 'clock we've wound down we might even be going to bed they're winding up and it's a really good time to have these conversations because a lot of your questions about how can we keep this connection they keep autonomy you might be in your room and they come in they choose what they want to talk about they choose how long they want to talk for they choose when the conversation is going to end and that is when you can have some of your really best conversations is just to quietly make yourself available at the time that they're really keen to talk and to your point georgia you know your your partner in the car you know maybe he'll talk later but he's just nothing for talking right then yeah exactly so it's really interesting just to be very thoughtful and aware about where can we maximize that connection and we can we really can yeah and for anybody listening from from my personal experience of living with a 12 year old at the moment and even if it starts as young as kind of 9 10 11 like the sass building and the eye rolling and the feeling that you're losing that connection the best piece of advice anyone gave me and actually you're reiterating it today Rachel is that really you have to look at yourself and your reaction first that actually not everything that they do is a personal attack.

51:45Not everything, you know, you pick your battles with it, let it go over your head. They don't hate you. They don't not love you. They don't not like the home that you live in, you know, the thing that you bought them. It's just this, it's like this moment for them. You just go, okay, fine, whatever. Just walk off and get on with it. So much. So much. They really are. I mean, and now we know all this. I mean, 15 years ago, we didn't think there was anything happening in the teenage brain. We didn't realize it was just an immense period of rewiring and the whole neural systems are changing and the prefrontal cortex, which is the sort of control, but it's coming in, it's out of action for a bit.

52:20And that's why they've got less impulse control. And then what they, what they, all this pruning, they're losing bits and they're finding bits, but just a load going on for them. And you know what? It's not about you. The phrase that parents seem to find helpful is strike when the iron's cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We love that. Strike when the heat's gone. Yeah, exactly. And also know your own shark music, you know, from Jaws. Dun-na, dun-na. You know, what's going on? And just watch your own shark music. Oh, Rachel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. What a beautiful conversation. Oh, it's been so fun.

52:56I'm going a bit goose bumpy, yeah, because that means I'm feeling that connection.

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