Friday Q&A on Teens and Tweens with Nicole Howes

0:00Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Our children's big feelings don't wait for a good time to show up.

1:21They turn up at bedtime, on the walk to school, or right in the middle of an ordinary afternoon. I'm Evie Pickerel, and my podcast, Evie Asks, is here to help. With gentle stories, mindful breathing, and positive affirmations, each episode helps children process their emotions and feel safe and supported. Whether they need help calming down for bedtime, finding confidence for school, all handling those really big feelings. Listen to Evie Asks wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and you can watch on YouTube too.

2:01Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas, the podcast. I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot. We really have. Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, we're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands. And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review.

2:33You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mummers. But for now, George, should we get into it? Hello and welcome to Friday's episode of the podcast. Today is going to be a fantastic discussion. I can already feel it. But today's guest just said to us off mic that she is not used to doing the public speaking thing. So we promise that we will go easy on you today. Obviously, an author. She's just written the most incredible book, which we're going to discuss in detail today. But we wanted to open it up to you guys to send in your questions on how to speak to. Do we call them tweens?

3:06Tweens, teens. And what age is that actually? Well, let's welcome her first. It's the coal house. just before we get into it do you want to just give us a little bit of background on you what you do we've already mentioned the book but just yeah just yeah of course so um for many years i've run a digital agency with my husband so we're quite up on the all things tech i guess um and i have two children who are now at high school and so i i kind of wanted a bit of a shift So I moved from the digital agency element, which I'd always done a lot of writing and content creation and things like that within it.

3:46And went to kind of pursue a new career, I guess. I pivoted into this world of being an author, which is where I'm at. And how does it feel to have tipped your toe and smashed it? Yeah, it feels great, actually. I'm really, really pleased. It kind of all just fell into place. you know sometimes things just do um and it just felt like the right time for me to move into writing full-time so yeah great and did you feel that that was a calling because of your situation with your kids being a bit older and you had the space to do it or was stuff coming up at home that you thought hang on there's a book here it was a combination of the two really um it was quite an organic development of the book um what what happened was so the book is called not a survival guide and I was getting to the point with my own children where things are happening and they were changing quite rapidly and as every stage of parenting does we start off with a baby and we have to learn really quickly on our feet as you guys know how to like adapt and change and grow and support this child that is now in your world that you you don't get a manual for but what you do get is lots of support groups and lots of people around you you get lots of family telling you how to do it it's not always helpful the whatsapp groups are not always helpful don't get me wrong but they are something um and you're looking online for information and then they get to toddler and you have to change again so you're in this stage of like okay i'm starting again with something new i don't know what this is it's toddler that's just come into my life you don't feel ready for it but again you've got the support primary school is the same and you have parents on school gates and you have podcasts to listen to and other elements but I found when we hit teen years everyone I felt like you should have it all together like why don't I already know what I'm doing by now I have been through this journey I've been a parent for more than 10 years and what the hell am I doing this is exactly where I'm at now with my 12 year old and I suddenly feel like I have no idea how to talk to her everything I say is embarrassing to her she's constantly telling me that I'm either cringy uncle she doesn't like the house she doesn't like this it's suddenly just I feel like I'm buckling up for 10 rounds with Mike Tyson yeah like it's really really hard yeah really scary actually yeah and I guess as well like I hear from lots of people is that when they go to secondary school you don't know the parents you don't have that like because we sort of say oh you know when we get to the school gates we don't necessarily have loads of chats with the other mums but you do have a that tiny little bit of dialogue of like oh god they're being a right arsehole at the moment oh yeah like that tiny you don't even have that yeah no you're completely isolated and the information just isn't out there because you think like who would put it out there yeah well me prior to that like there just isn't that um outreach available to you and that was what I found really hard and the other thing is everybody tells you like even back in the day when we were younger the Harry Enfield sketch with oh my god I've turned into a teenager yeah oh he's losing the power of rational thought that is all you hear as a parent everyone is saying to you oh well oh you think this is bad you wait until they get to teenage years and then you're completely sunk in this like fear I guess before you even reach the stage of how hard it's going to be and you you get a little insight into it like you were saying with them reacting in a certain way and then you think oh how long is this gonna i can't i can't do it for all this time yeah or just how do you deal with it yeah you know that's why it was big it is big it's huge and also the energy that they bring to the house you know not all the time but when it's bad it impacts everybody so i think being tooled up and understanding you know getting some really good advice solid advice on how to handle them this is why your book is so amazing so we need to get into the questions because we've got loads here george do you want to kick us off yeah let's kick us off um what do you do or say when your tween tells you they hate you it's so upsetting from zoe it is really upsetting isn't it um well i think the main thing that i've learned through the creation of the book is i've spoken to lots and lots of people who have all been in similar very very similar situations um and it's all about just taking a step back and not taking it personally teenagers tend to be so caught up in themselves actually whilst it might hurt to hear it it's not actually about you they don't care about you that much at that stage and not in the sense of like they don't want you to be there as but it's not in a sense they don't want you as a parent they just don't care about how you feel because they can't see it and it's not because they want to be like that and that's then the conflict you get because they're with one hand they're pushing you away as hard as they can because they don't want you to make decisions for you they need to find their own independence and yet with the other hand they need you more than ever because this is a really scary time for them as well sometimes and I think like we were saying about the um conversations around oh horrible teenagers that's something I feel really strongly that actually as a society we need to change the narrative yeah because before they get there they're like who am i my daughter said to me once she was about um nine and she said um mommy i don't ever want to be a teenager i don't want to be that i don't want to not love you anymore i don't want to feel like that so that's the narrative that they're hearing all the time and it's really important that we kind of take a bit of a different approach to that I say things like that to my eight year old.

9:38I'm like, oh, the teenager. And I won't. But, you know, we sort of mentioned teenagers, but there's this tween stage as well, isn't there? What age do you kind of class that as? Because I think that's like a bit of a muddied water. Yeah, muddied water. I think it really is family dependent. So it depends on where they're at personally, where you're at, how they've developed, what they've been exposed to. Like children have some children have to grow up really quick. yeah so and society depends what situation they're in it's amongst their peers um I would say the book I've kind of aimed towards people that have children around eight upwards oh when I said that people are like whoa that's like that's early they're not a teenager at that point but I really feel like there's a benefit and like just generally prepping put in some of the tools from the book in at this stage so that you can um go into it really evenly rather than it suddenly feeling like a big like hill to climb oh yeah panic yeah and you do get the back chat around eight i think yeah i haven't had it yet with luna oh i get it we're still in that sweet spot again it's child dependent though right it could be anything from eight but it could not you could not feel like your child is a teenager like into 13 yeah it's so true it's not like suddenly they wake up magically and they're like the harry empill character that doesn't like that doesn't happen really no it's gradual and it like sometimes hits you like a bolt out of the blue and you're like whoa where did that come from yeah and you're like oh here we go and then there's nothing yeah okay great we're fine it's the um when you go oh is it okay if you just um put your bowl on the side war and i'm like if you could just put your bowl on the side oh i don't want to do.

11:24And I'm like, firstly, you don't speak like that. Where does that come from? And secondly, do the fucking job. Yeah. They just don't want to do anything, really, do they? And everything is an issue. Like, I could say, the sky's blue, and she'd be like, as if it's blue. Yeah, you're so stupid. It's so stupid. And I'm literally like, oh God, I thought the sky was blue, that's what I've been told for 42 years. I did hear though, that that's as a result of like, tribal ancestry, that they have to think that we're stupid so that they want to leave the tribe. Oh, okay. So you have to leave your family behind because otherwise you would stay integrated with that same family.

11:58And obviously we can't do that forever. That is so fascinating. That's great. It's about understanding that actually it's not, like I was saying, they don't care. It's not your fault that they don't care, but they don't because they're in this situation where they have to leave and you have to allow them that. And this is all about a period of independence and growth for all of us. Like parents and babies, it's really hard, but we have to allow them to grow and find their independence and make their own mistakes and build resilience. And if it means that the bowl is left on the side a bit longer, then get over it.

12:32We're just going to have to do that. Because the worst thing would be if they stayed. That's what I mean. I'm happy for my kids to think I'm stupid if it means that they're going to... I don't ever want them to leave. Okay, how to deal... Oh, this is interesting. How to deal with sexual desire in an 11-year-old boy. Oh, interesting. hmm AI girlfriend I found him chatting to online AI girlfriends the whole new what I don't know girlfriend okay so I don't know a huge amount about AI um in regards to the chatbot element of it but my understanding of it is that you can have a chatbot and young people are having conversations online with um bots it's a huge it's a huge thing um and they are offering what they often offer them is um affirmation so they'll go i'm feeling like this and they'll go oh you poor thing that must be really hard for you like adults are using them as counselors as well yeah yeah um it's not real person but then it's yeah and this is a thing and they it's really hard their brains aren't fully developed so we are as parents responsible for looking after them for this long because their brains aren't fully developed um until they're like in their early 20s so the fact that they're having these um conversations and interactions with things that aren't real at this stage is really i think it's really concerning but yeah of course because you don't know what's like you don't know what's coming back and there's no control over what's coming back but obviously this person said about sexual desire in an 11 year old boy yeah now i obviously i'm not there yet i mean has isla brought up anything like no oh god no she didn't no she's not talking to me about it like i think again it's about that gentle slope into conversations so if you're suddenly going straight off the cliff and you're talking about um pornography and masturbation and other elements like that out of the blue when you've never discussed anything like that before then that's going to come really hard for both of you yeah one good tool that i find is tv programs so we are careful with what we allow our children to watch all of us are but actually i do think there's a benefit and pushing the boundaries when you're together with the scenes that you would watch so that you can then bring up these conversations and it's a really And the ones that you tend to run away from.

15:05Yeah, and the ones that you'd be like, oh, God, is this going to be all right? How's this going to land? But if you start a narrative every time you watch a TV programme, not just those ones, all of them, what do you think of that? How do you think that's going? How do you think that's made them feel? Or have you ever thought anything like that? When you're sitting side by side on a sofa, it's a really good place to have a conversation, the same as in the car. So you can watch these scenes, and you can pre-plan, you can watch and make sure you're comfortable with what you're watching. Adolescence was a really good one for that in our house.

15:33We all watched it. I pre-watched it and then I allowed them to. And we could have these discussions. And I would say scenes of a sexual nature, if they are shown in a realistic way and you can have conversations around them and normalise it, that's far better than your child getting curious and finding those things online. Online. And you have no control over them. We'll be right back after this short break.

16:23Thank you. That works covered by insurance sessions, average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session grow connects you with thousands of high quality licensed therapists across the U S offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as zero dollars for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST.

17:09That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Our children's big feelings don't wait for a good time to show up. They turn up at bedtime, on the walk to school, or right in the middle of an ordinary afternoon. I'm Evie Pickerel, and my podcast Evie Asks is here to help. With gentle stories, mindful breathing, and positive affirmations, each episode helps children process their emotions and feel safe and supported. Whether they need help calming down for bedtime, finding confidence for school, all handling those really big feelings.

17:53Listen to Evie Asks wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and you can watch on YouTube too.

18:04Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? Like when it comes to like sexual desire and like who they might fancy or all that kind of stuff. I'm so aware of not like saying to like, say for instance, my son, oh, have you got a girlfriend? because that might not be his thing. And if I'm saying that all the time, that's them making him think, oh, well, when I grow up, I'm going to be with a girl. And then there's like a little bit of a hurdle, even if it's minor, to get over. I find that hard because it's like, I want to talk about people finding other people attractive in a different way to friendship so that there is like some narrative around that without pushing them into...

18:44When you talk to Axel though about, like, I say girls, would you say because what we say is well you know you might have a girlfriend or boyfriend one day and I'm very aware of like making sure that that language is quite because it's you know it's 2025 guys and it's like it's really important for us not to do what was done to us and my mum was always saying to me you got a boyfriend have you got a boyfriend like there was no opportunity even if I was gay there wasn't an opportunity for me to be gay in that household because of their ideals around what it looked like yeah yeah completely yeah but again that's where something like watching the tv together yeah yeah because you're not making it about them and quite often it's about that um one tool that i've got which has been really useful and it would work for this but it would work for other scenarios as well is um having a conversation with your partner or your friend in front of your child so if there's something you want to talk about to your child have it indirectly um make up a scenario so oh so and so at work they did this thing and then that they met this person and then this happened.

19:46What do you think of that? In front of the child, don't involve them in the conversation. They're so smart. They'll pick up on everything. They listen to everything. We know that they do. So yeah, that's quite a good one. That's a good one, yeah. So Axel goes swimming with his class on like one day a week. He's eight, coming up nine. Yeah, so it's in like, you know, the kids go off to the pool and whatever and there's a changing room and all that kind of stuff. And I hadn't heard anything about where they get changed or all of that kind of stuff. But he said to me, oh, the head teacher had to come swimming with us this week because of something that had been going on.

20:22And I was like, oh, really? What was that? And he said that a boy had asked a girl to come into the changing room with him. Oh, that actually feels sick. And so, I mean, so I was like, oh. In my mind, I'm thinking, what the fuck? And then I'm like, oh, why do you think he would have wanted her to come in with him? he was like um i don't really know and i was like oh like do you got you know is that normal he's like no no we're only allowed to go into the changing rooms with boys or girl you know like the girls go the girls the boys go the boys or you can go on your own and i was like so why do you think he would have asked her to come in and why do you think she would have gone in and he said oh probably so they could show each other their privates no but yeah so that's interesting yeah that's like a you show me yours and i'll show you mine so it was no like oh him enticing her in there was none of that well not from his story and I said oh why do you think um why do you think that he would have wanted to see her privates and why do you think she wanted to see him he was like I have no idea because I've seen Gigi's and they are gross and I was like oh okay but it did but I did it did sort of in my mind think oh like yeah of course like even though they're you know most of them are nine eight or nine they are getting that curiosity and maybe i don't know for instance this boy might not have a sister at home or this girl might not have a brother at home and so curiosity is so natural and i think that's we need to encourage curiosity in our children to a certain degree and so that they are having these conversations with us yeah and as long as they are then that gives us an opportunity to keep them safer we're not going to protect them by not telling them anything or keeping things secret so there's a real benefit in understanding who we are yeah and them knowing that you're a safe space so with regards to the sexual desire just make sure there's no shame there's no shame in talking about i feel like this oh i wanted to look at this because they will be doing it regardless of whether you let them or not this kind of leads us on slightly from obviously from sexual desire but just discussing openly which we've touched on you know sex and we talked about kind of you mentioned just then pleasure and you know not feeling any shame about it I guess for you what was the age that you felt comfortable that you would discuss that was consent involved you know just talk us through that if you can because I think that again that's another big big box to open someone said here like if your child's not asked you any details and I think that's because sometimes it starts when they ask yeah right but what if they don't ask yeah you still have to talk yeah yeah yeah and that can be harder in some ways because you've got to approach it so it's good to find something if you struggle with it and you haven't always had these discussions sometimes you can think oh god it's a little late now i can't now bring up this awkward conversation but you have a responsibility you can't allow your children to not know it just because you're too scared or too embarrassed or you have shame around it because if you have these elements of shame they are what get broadcasted onto your children so you need to be approaching these conversations openly candidly and honestly and they will be awkward and they will make you go a little bit pink in the face and you probably will bumble your way around them but as long as you've opened up something with them relevant to where they're at then that's going to be the most important thing that they feel they can talk to you about anything and then you sort of go into this realm you know we don't need to go into details if we're not comfortable but when we're talking about pleasure and sex, I'm comfortable to discuss it.

23:54That language was not around when I was a teenager. Women, as far as I'm concerned, and girls, weren't able or allowed or accepted, it was an acceptable space for us to consider pleasure. And I opened this chat up with Doz, my husband, the other night, and I was like, you know, in my mind, it was like, oh yeah, you guys just crack on. And then I didn't have an orgasm for the first seven years of me having sex. Seven years. I remember the first time I had an orgasm, and I was like, what the fuck just happened? And the guy was like, I think you just had an orgasm. I was like, oh my God. You know, it wasn't even there.

24:28So I really, I'm acutely aware of wanting to talk to them about pleasure, but not getting it too early and not missing it. And then it's like, oh, it's such a big minefield. Because all the tools are always about like not getting pregnant, like all of that. And I remember at school, yeah, diseases. And I remember at school, it was always like on the boys. Like the boys wanted to be doing it with their girlfriends and it was up to the girlfriends if they were ready or not. And that was the only, it wasn't ever the other way around, ever. And it was never about like, oh, did you enjoy it to the girl?

25:02It was always just the boy. So that works really well with the conversation about consent as well because actually a big part of sex is that both people or all people should enjoy it and feel safe. So if they are not enjoying it and they're not getting pleasure from it and they're not feeling safe you're in the wrong place so you shouldn't be there so that's a really nice way to talk about consent with children when they're talking about sex often they will come home from school and they've had some form of sex education hopefully you've had some sort of conversation before they get to that point because otherwise it can be quite terrifying and shocking for them to hear what is going on um but at that point you can address it oh okay so do you know anything about consent what is that oh this is when both people say yes they do want to do something and that doesn't just need to be about sex but you need to be if you're in a situation where it takes two people to be involved in it you need to both be happy and safe and their messages that if we can get those messages through early then it's really helpful and like you were saying, yeah, girls particularly, did you even know that that was a thing?

26:14No. Or if you were, like, active, you wouldn't ever talk about it with your friends or anybody at all. Never. But they are. So even if you weren't at that age, there is a chance that your daughter will start to have these feelings around 11 or 12. Oh, my God. so even if you weren't you need to be assuming that she is or that he is because if we get to this point where we're like oh yeah but I didn't really think about it until I was like 15, 16 but also you might think that as well you know what it's like you have these memories in your mind and they might not always be accurate that's the other thing because I've got friends who are like oh well I didn't have a boyfriend until I was 15 and I'm like fuck off what i was there i was there we were wearing school uniform and we used to go to the boy school and like what are you talking about like why have you forgotten that like and i think people do like they literally forget yeah for sure yeah that is definitely definitely a real thing we do forget we forget how young we were and we had these feelings and i think the one fear that a lot of people talk to me about is um oh but if i bring it up and they've not thought about it that's going to make them want to do it all right and yeah what's the worst that's going to happen but it relates to sex as well so people will say oh I didn't want to speak to him about it because I didn't want them to like start having sex that's not that is not the situation I have never had a conversation with my child and of any description they've gone off and done that like it just isn't how it works um but there is that innate fear of if i i could put the idea in the head yeah i feel like talking to somebody about being gay you're not going to pop the idea in the head because you're showing them that you're supportive of them um and that they can be who they want to be that isn't how it works if your parents say to you you know what you can be whoever you want to be you can love whoever you want to love you're not going to think oh do you know what i've never thought about that before but yeah i think i'm definitely gay yeah that isn't how it's going to work but if you are a child that has something going on in your mind and your parent says i support you with this fully do you want any more information then you're going to go okay cool i feel really safe and supported and i feel like i can own who i am now i feel a bit anxious yes i do i actually i'm not sure i think it's bringing up quite a lot of stuff from my childhood actually it's a it's a funny uncomfortable i'm loving talking to you but i'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about the conversations that maybe didn't happen and how I felt about sex in my teens and you know yeah it was a big a big body of work to unpick it because I don't think there was enough um my parents were amazing but it's sort of enough understanding on what it could be and what it what it isn't and what it might be and yeah I just don't want to get that wrong with my kids yeah I think it is difficult it is it's a difficult one but look we're having these conversations and I think that's like the best thing we can possibly do yeah we'll be right back after this short break therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough it shows up in the smallest moments you bite your tongue instead of escalating you put your phone down instead of firing off that text you say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most.

29:45Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability.

30:21And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Our children's big feelings don't wait for a good time to show up. They turn up at bedtime, on the walk to school, or right in the middle of an ordinary afternoon. I'm Evie Pickerel, and my podcast, Evie Asks, is here to help. With gentle stories, mindful breathing, and positive affirmations, each episode helps children process their emotions and feel safe and supported.

31:12Whether they need help calming down for bedtime, finding confidence for school, or handling those really big feelings, listen to Evie Asks wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and you can watch on YouTube too.

31:31welcome back to this episode of made by mommas now where were we how to set boundaries without being too strict 14 year old oh this is a great one so um yeah it's there's two parts to it so first of all i would try and work out what your boundaries are before the conversations come up so i would literally like you would with anything else like work or anything plan it so write a list sit down think to yourself like what are the boundaries for certain situations try and like make some situations up in your mind like where do I stand with alcohol where do I stand with sex where do I stand with how much time they're allowed to stay up with their friends um all of these things like that could come up even like chores like where where am I with the bowl on the side like yeah where is the boundary for that and how do I feel about it um I think quite often we're working in a really reactive way to particularly to teenage pushback and we'll often say something because of the way that we're feeling at the time we're feeling reactive or we've had a long day and we'll respond in a way that actually afterwards we'll be like oh do you know I think I kind of overcooked that one I shouldn't have said it so write your boundaries list down plan out what you want as a parent and if you are parenting with someone else get them to do the same and then come to a decision so that works as your bible for it it's your plan it's your parenting plan and no you're not always going to stick to it and yes of course things are going to change along the way but it does give you clarity when these questions around boundaries come up because you can be like no actually this is what i've decided when i was in a clear headspace not when i'm being reactive and this is what i'm going to with you know like how do you know when you're being fair because i think like in life do you know what i mean like if say right with a 14 year old i don't know they say they want to go to a party they say all their friends are allowed to stay till midnight right all their friends are allowed to stay till midnight but in your body you want them to stay till 8 30 um because you want to go to bed um no but like you know in your mind you think oh god 8 30 but part of me if that was my friend saying that to me would think oh i think you should let them like give them a little bit more but surely then you're overstepping your boundary do you see what i mean like how do you know what's a reasonable boundary because though i can sit here and be like nope they can't go to parties nope because if i was writing a boundary list that's what it would be yeah but then i'd no, that's not fair.

34:03But if you know it's not fair, you wouldn't write those two boundaries. Realistically, you wouldn't. And that's where the clear-headed list comes in because you are more rational with yourself and you will think, oh, do you know what? I could allow this, I could allow that. And I think there is a real fear of everything going wrong. Like everything could go wrong all the time. But that can happen anytime, any place. And we're not actually, what we're doing by not giving them enough independence, and I'm not saying they need to be at parties until midnight, but by not giving them those independent moments and those times to learn they don't have the opportunity to grow and we have a potential like as parents that we're containing them so much yeah that they're not having what they need they need time with their peers they need to make mistakes they need to do stupid stuff but like what is the worst that could happen and if you have got fears about what the worst is that can happen have those conversations with your child or teen so i'm going to allow it on this occasion but yeah like you have to show me you have to show me that you are responsible enough to keep yourself safe to make good choices um but have a good time like go have a good time but also we need to like debrief so we'll have a brief before my children do stuff like that we'll have a brief yes and then when they get home we'll have a debrief of like how well it went so often they might be late back to the pickup point and that for me is not cool no if I'm sitting there for like five minutes then I go yeah okay fine if I'm sitting there for 10-15 minutes and there has been already a discussion about you need to be here at this point then we have to have a debrief and it's not then about blowing your top at the time when they get in the car because you just want them to get in the car and know that wherever they are whenever they need picking up you'll be there and you're a safe space but also the next day right okay so this time you did this you were really great like seems like you had a really good time what I found difficult was I was waiting for you for 10-15 minutes in the car and at that point I felt a bit worried and I didn't know where you were and I thought that we'd agreed this time and I felt like you pushed your boundary and that just didn't sit well with me so what can we do next time to make sure you get to the car on time yeah do you need to leave 10 minutes earlier from the party how do we work this because if it carries on like that then i will say that your curfew is going to be 10 o 'clock like we need to do it a different way i was gonna say we um our parents set a boundary me and my sister and i remember it vividly and it was like our first house party situation it was the 90s and we had from 6 p.m to midnight quite a long time i was 14 my sister was 16 you did a lot of trouble in six well wait till i think we had gate crashes people were spitting cheese back into the fridge they put all the cutlery in the pond they set fire to the front door they sunk my they chucked my grandpa's bench into the pond um they oh my god the shit that they did we had to call my parents to go we've got gate crashers and at that point we were literally never allowed to do it took like a year for us to be like we're so sorry, we're so sorry and that's like obviously an extreme version you know the 90s, it was a wild time ghost I remember my first house party my dad wasn't allowed to be there and my mum had her friend Dina over and they sat in her bedroom and they said they wouldn't come down and they didn't and I mean it was carnage, like people were climbing out the window you know like it was smoking smoke it all of that but i went off stairs and my mum was smoking in bed and dina and i she's never she says she'd never smoked before and she's like but this that was so stressful that that's what she would decide to do but she said she just had to like she's basically if you can't beat them join them you do sometimes basically yeah and i don't think you should be that like i'm a cool mum like letting them just do everything no there has to be a boundary like You need to know what that is.

38:08But it can be at this age, as they get a bit older, it can be a conversation. And also I think sometimes, especially younger ages like now, for instance, Axel's nearly nine, Gigi's nearly six, I put myself in situations that can make me feel a little bit uncomfortable, but I let them do them. So for instance, when we were on holiday, we were in a restaurant in a hotel and Axel kept saying, I really want to go downstairs and find out if there's a driving range here. I really want to go downstairs and find out if there's a drama. And he was like, okay, go on then, off you go. You go and do it. You've got to go and speak to the receptionist.

38:42You've got to find out for yourself. Now, that's uncomfortable to let him go downstairs with Gigi. I mean, it wasn't far or, you know, whatever. But that was uncomfortable. But I knew that they're the little things that you have to do to build up. Well done, George. Like confidence, like small things like, you know, going to the toilet by yourself. Like all of that sounds so small, but it's just. Yeah, it's great, George. Yeah, baby steps. It depends on both of you, though. Yeah, exactly. It's more for me. It's like that letting go. But they also need those experiences. They do. They can't have you shadowing them all the time.

39:15You can't, unfortunately, when they get a little bit older, you're not there all the time. So you can't follow them around. Nicole, can we ask you this last question? A seven-year-old wants to wear crop tops, bikinis, but I feel funny about it. Am I being silly? Saying no makes her want to do it and wants one more. This is... You're not being silly, by the way. this is a um personal choice yeah um isn't it um i think it kind of relates to how you feel as a parent but you have to question yourself as to why you feel like yeah so if the reason you don't want your child to wear a crop top is because you don't want their body on show why is that like where where does that sit for you because sometimes it can be something that's gone on in your past that makes you feel that way you want to protect your children from other people's gaze potentially maybe that's the realistic view of it and maybe you don't want them to appear over sexualized at a young age but actually having your belly out I know exactly is that over sexualization I don't think so um personally and it comes down to at the moment my children are at school and they're in high school and it's the age-old thing of the skirts are monitored on the regulations for school this winds me up oh my god this is getting my goat already yeah so um the length of skirt is part of the uniform regulation as i think it is across lots and lots of high schools in the uk particularly um but i have always it's always sat a little bit off with me because i wonder why that regulation is there and one of the narratives that often comes back what i've seen these stories in the news quite a lot is it's in order to not distract the boys now if that is the case i'm very uncomfortable are we not educating our boys in the wrong way yeah and they're probably not anyway and does that come back to the bikini thing with younger children like is that why i yeah it's a really you'll be funny but right if you see a topless guy walking down the street yeah yeah you might be like oh that's weird but you'd carry on with your work you wouldn't be like depends who's topless though let's be honest and be completely not be able to concentrate on what you're doing anymore again i go back to my point it depends who it was like if we're talking like tom hardy i think i'd have a problem finishing my work yeah no exactly but you know what i mean like it's yeah why i don't know but it's the shame and the double standards again isn't it so when we were talking you said earlier you felt a bit funny about the conversation yes a lot of it is shame and that shame comes from a really young age so if you're telling a child you can't wear a bikini you need to cover up but your brother can wear just swim shorts what's the difference i know what is the difference and boys like you said boys can wear can be topless as soon as it gets hot the boys will take off their shirts and play football or walk down the street like if a woman was walking down the street in her bikini or bra that would be shameful shameful in other people's eyes yeah that's really interesting isn't it um it's all around body because does it then instill a feeling of um maybe potentially struggling with body positivity if you're looking at your adult um by the way this is not my opinion it's just a question um and they're saying no you can't wear a bikini because of whatever the reason is i don't know when you hear the phrase oh no you need to cover up cover up why do you need to cover up Why should you?

42:43Like I personally have tried really hard to not make my, particularly my daughter's body, but either of my children's bodies, a narrative. We just don't really talk about their bodies. We don't talk, we talk about their bodies, but we don't talk about their shape, their size, how fit they are, how lean they are. They shouldn't eat something. They shouldn't do this. Like those conversations haven't been a part of our narrative at all. So, but consciously on our part. And again, and it was in the boundaries list. So I think it probably comes down to that. If we're making a point of it, it's like if they want to wear a crop top, maybe buy them a crop top and then lose it in the wash for a really long time.

43:25Like don't make it a thing. Yeah, you can wear the crop top for a little bit. And then if you're not comfortable with it, maybe just sideline it. Because then it doesn't become such a thing. It's just not a thing. See, I haven't got a problem with it. I don't either. I've more got a problem with it because I've got a daughter who I thought I'd be able to dress in beautiful things and all she wants to wear is freaking crop tops and cycling shorts. That's more my issue. That's more my issue. Luna's got loads. She was wearing one at the airport when we flew to Scotland on Saturday and I hadn't seen her because I was at work and I was meeting them there.

43:56And I was so proud. She rocked up. She was super confident. She had baggy trousers on. She looked really cool. Little leopard print crop top. And I didn't even cross my mind that she was wearing... I didn't even see it. I just saw her and how happy she was and how confident she seemed. and I really was like really proud of her. So yeah, I think maybe to the person, if you're questioning it, maybe you're feeling like you might want to just try something different for a bit. But again, personal choice. But thanks for sending in your questions. Nicole, we've run out of time. Just before we go, why should people buy the book?

44:26Because you're not in it alone. That's the main reason. We're all in this together and just to have a bit of companionship in it is really needed sometimes. Where can people buy it? Everywhere. Yeah, so Alison is out now, Waterstones, lots of local independent bookshops will be able to order it in for you as well. Amazing. And any resources, we usually ask our guests about products, like recommendations, but any resources that you have found particularly useful? I don't know, like things that they can read. Obviously the book is for parents, but is there anything you can direct? The book actually has got lots of sections that are dear teen sections.

45:04so you can take those elements out of it and read them to your teen directly or just keep them on standby until you need them so that's quite a useful tool Nicole thank you so much for coming on thanks for having me thank you

45:27our children's big feelings don't wait for a good time to show up they turn up at bedtime on the walk to school, or right in the middle of an ordinary afternoon. I'm Evie Pickerel, and my podcast, Evie Asks, is here to help. With gentle stories, mindful breathing, and positive affirmations, each episode helps children process their emotions and feel safe and supported. Whether they need help calming down for bedtime, finding confidence for school, or handling those really big feelings, Listen to Evie Asks wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and you can watch on YouTube too.