Friday Q&A: Relationship Therapy with Karen Doherty

0:02Karen Doherty: Made by Mamas starts in just a moment. But first, what do your kids think you actually do all day? Over on Secret Mum Club, Safina and Emma have discovered what one listener's four-year-old thinks she does all day. And the review is absolutely brutal. Kids really do have a way with words. Search for Secret Mum Club and get the episode in your queue.

0:26Zo: Everyone treats summer like it owes you happiness. Long days, pool parties, your best life on a loop. So what does it mean when you feel worse? The summer blues are real. It's why summer is one of the busiest stretches of the year for people starting therapy. Grow Therapy is here for all the moments when you decide you want more. More support, more clarity, more tools. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. The therapist you want takes your insurance on Grow. Grow accepts over 125 insurance plans.

1:04Zo: Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash ACAST today to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:26Karen Doherty: How does a surgeon harm patients and not face prison? Underneath St. Helena's volcanic, lush scenery is a shocking, ongoing scandal.

1:37G: They did the damage to him and make our life harder than it used to be. A surgeon came to help, but left devastation behind.

1:46Karen Doherty: I'm Luke Jones. After the Pitcairn trials, I headed to a different, isolated community to investigate. Listen to The Surgeon of St Helena. Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas, the podcast. I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space, where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot.

2:11Zo: We really have. Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, we're the parenting podcast for you.

2:21Karen Doherty: Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands. And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review. You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mummers. But for now, George, should we get into it? Hello and welcome to Friday's episode of the podcast. talking about a subject that Georgia and I absolutely love chatting about. We either oscillate from moaning and divorce lawyers to everything's absolutely fine relationships. Today, our guest is a therapist and relationship expert specialising in couples therapy.

2:57Karen Doherty: And maybe if one person is neurodivergent, she is your woman. It's Karen Doherty. Yay!

3:04Zo: Thank you so much. We were just having a laugh before because whenever we do this sort of topic we get so many questions and every single one that I'm looking at I'm like oh that really cracks me up because that's something I would say or you know we've had this conversation but just before we get into the chat do I want to just give um the listeners a little bit of

3:22G: background on you okay so a couple therapists trained many years ago not going to say how many um but very experienced and about I think about 13 years now specializing in neurodivergent relationships alongside couples. Long story, but it was where I was working. I was working in Canary Wharf. I got interested and I've been interested ever since. And I have a private practice. I work internationally. I run courses, webinars. You're busy. Trying to write a book and I teach. So I do a lot within the field actually. What is it about working with couples that you love so much? Oh, okay. So long time ago, long time ago, 15 years ago, I decided it was only couples that I want to work with.

4:08G: So that's what I work with. But it's completely different to individual therapy. There's nothing like it because the dynamic that is created, which is the relationship, is separate to the two individuals. So it is incredibly dynamic working in that. You've got two people plus the couple. So there's four of us in the room, plus all the other, you know, other attendees which is the legacy and the mums and the dads and everybody else and the kids but it's very dynamic and I love it it's it's it's what I do it's my skill set to a tee yeah

4:39Karen Doherty: I mean it's it's Georgia you haven't done couples therapy have you but Georgia's been with her partner since you were 20 years since you were 17 yeah yeah and I'm a big advocate for therapy and I've done a lot of couples therapy with my husband and so it's I find it really fascinating I found that whole process. I've done therapy by myself, actually sitting down with a therapist. And, you know, suddenly there was a space where we could both talk and everything we were saying was held and wasn't met with any defensiveness. Suddenly he was sharing stuff that he'd never said. I was sharing stuff and I suddenly thought, God, hallelujah, this is the utopia moment.

5:14G: Yeah, that's right. Exactly that. You're being witnessed. So you are actually on better behavior. And you don't, if a therapist is working well with you, they don't let you fall into your habitual patterns. they keep you on track now come back here what exactly are we talking about here and that makes a difference because couples themselves go around in circles all the time they have the same fights they have the same the same arguments the same non-resolved issues so going into a space with a couple therapist is really really helpful at any point in your relationship resentment seems to be

5:50Karen Doherty: the loudest bell that rings sometimes especially when you bring kids along because people one person thinks that the other one's doing more they're not talking about it and suddenly there's this whole sort of fire just raging on in the background that we can't seem to talk about

6:03G: well the bringing in of the third i.e the first baby second baby third baby that disrupts the original couple dynamic and every couple then has to adjust to that new dynamic and you know kids are relentless yeah they are relentless and what's more is they don't they don't stay the same so just as you think right I got this they turn into these monsters and then they turn back into lovely little adorable darlings and so you've got to work your way through that.

6:31Zo: Do you feel like you see more couples who have kids than don't? Yes. Yes.

6:37G: So insightful. Absolutely 100 % I do see. Yeah. I do see more couples that have kids than don't. Yeah.

6:45Zo: I feel like we should get into the questions because there are so many and actually this one really leans into what you were just saying about things changing um as you know kids get older um someone here has put any advice my husband and i keep disagreeing with how to parent our daughter 13 we were fine before yeah because the daughter's hit

7:04G: it hasn't she she's hit that she's coming into her own she's probably starting to menstruate she's actually at that peak isn't she where she wants to establish herself and i have to say i mean parents really do have a problem co-parenting a lot of the time yeah there's a lot of um there's a lot of distrust there's a lot of no that's not right I want to do it this way and when I work with parents about this it is to sort of create a co-parenting deal a co-parenting deal okay what's really most important to you um what do you really want to get across and what are you more flexible on and how are we going to do this because it is quite important that you if you can present a solid base.

7:47G: If you can't, well then send them off with dad on the Saturdays and have a day off.

7:53Zo: Yeah.

7:53G: You know, it's very difficult, but that, that, that communication, it starts off badly because you're already on separate sides. And that's something that you need to really think about. We started off with common goals. We started off with the same ideas. Why have they changed? And conversation, communication around that because people separate.

8:12Zo: Do you think that, you know there'll be a lot of our listeners who will have kids who aren't teens yet do you think it's worth having the conversation before you hit those teenage years on what you know where you sit

8:25G: on certain things I think it's worth having the conversation from day one yeah because it's those early years that are setting the format really you know you're setting your your family your family deal actually from early on and that has to be adjusted as you go through because it's all phases you know up until 10 well no up until about five six there's one phase then six till 10 then there's primary school then there's you know pubescence teenagers that it's all phases so you probably need to be on board from the beginning and constantly renegotiate yeah what

8:59Karen Doherty: do you think is positive or not and what advice would you give to this person obviously we've mentioned you know the communication aspects if there was one let's say you know you you you vigorously, what's the word, vehemently disagree with your partner and the way that they want to parent your 13 year old. But at the end of the day, both sides have to be held. So how do you find the negotiation on that?

9:20G: You just, you have to meet halfway, don't you? There's no way around that. It's how you meet halfway. And sometimes you have to divide to conquer. One goes off, the other one goes off. And I do say this, you know, if couples separate, then the children have their individual experiences of their individual parents.

9:37Karen Doherty: I don't think this couple are separated. No, they're not.

9:39G: No, they're not separating. But if a couple were to separate, so they're on separate sides, if they were to separate, it's worth bearing in mind. It's worth considering the fact that if we were separate, they would have different relationships with different parents, with each parent. It's really helpful to think about it like that. You know, primary carers always think that they know best.

10:03Zo: Yeah.

10:03G: They know best. They know best. But actually, is it just that they do more and over facilitate the other parent? That's interesting. Yeah. That's an interesting point to think about. It really is. And it's one that people don't think about.

10:16Zo: So you're saying you could have two completely different parenting styles with your teenager. And as long as they know that, you know, mom does this and dad does that, then that's fine.

10:28G: Better than the mom and dad fighting.

10:30Zo: Yeah. Yeah.

10:32G: Better than mom and dad fighting. Okay. And the teenagers, they're old enough to know, all right, dad thinks this. Why does he think that? Oh, I can get away with that with him. Okay, fine. But hopefully you're on broadly the same page about what is acceptable and what's not. It's not going to be so different that it's an issue. But yeah, dad's got one way. Mum's got another way on this. Okay. Start treating them a little bit like adults.

10:59Zo: Yeah.

11:00G: Come on. Is that good for you? Okay. So you stay up really late. How do you feel the next day? start to make them responsible I have had three kids yeah yeah yeah

11:12Karen Doherty: do you know what I'm sort of having it at the moment with my eldest who's my stepdaughter so my husband and her lovely mum Laura they don't they don't have access to Isla's phone so she's 13 and they don't have the password they don't know what app she's on they don't take it away at night now she is my daughter but I didn't birth her my biological kids that will not happen So I've had to sit very much back and be like, that's the way that you want to do it. But I'm sitting on my hands and I'm biting my tongue a lot of the time because I wouldn't do it that way. But I have to compromise on it because I don't really have the ultimate say in it.

11:47Karen Doherty: So it sort of feels a little bit like that at the moment where I'm a bit like, okay, if that's the way you want to do it, that's your prerogative. But yes. And you have to sit on your hands. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

11:58Zo: Yeah. That's hard. I guess that could end up impacting like Luna and Kit in some ways. then you do have a say on that. I can't wait for my say.

12:08G: But Luna and Kit are going to go into other people's homes.

12:11Zo: And you don't have a say on that. And you don't have a say on it.

12:15G: Okay, they are going to be out there. And they're horses for courses, different homes, different rules. It's interesting, isn't it? Yes.

12:22Zo: Oh, I don't like this. We'll be right back after this short break.

12:35Zo: Everyone treats summer like it owes you happiness. Long days, pool parties, your best life on a loop. So what does it mean when you feel worse? The summer blues are real. It's why summer is one of the busiest stretches of the year for people starting therapy. Grow Therapy is here for all the moments when you decide you want more. More support, more clarity, more tools. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. The therapist you want takes your insurance on Grow. Grow accepts over 125 insurance plans.

13:13Zo: Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash ACAST today to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

13:35Karen Doherty: How does a surgeon harm patients and not face prison? Underneath St. Helena's volcanic, lush scenery is a shocking, ongoing scandal.

13:46G: They did the damage to him and make our life harder than it used to be. a surgeon came to help but left devastation behind.

13:55Karen Doherty: I'm Luke Jones. After the Pitcairn trials, I headed to a different, isolated community to investigate. Listen to The Surgeon of St Helena.

14:09Karen Doherty: Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? Someone here has said, how do you deal? Oh, this is interesting and relatable. How do you deal with Different sex drives. I always try, but my husband doesn't. Oh, so yeah, relatable, but the other way around, which I think is normally the case. So she's got a higher sex drive than her husband. How does she cope with it? How do they cope with it as a couple?

14:30G: Interesting because I was just, I just taught a seminar on psychosexual therapy this weekend. Differences in libido. Is it differences in libido or is it just actually differences in levels of exhaustion, differences in what they want, what they fancy and absolutely no communication. So I'm a real advocate of, I know this goes down badly, scheduled sex. Oh no, it doesn't go down. Scheduled intimacy. Yeah, it doesn't. I think a night that is scheduled for intimacy, not necessarily sex, but connection. I wonder how resistant he'd be then if there was time. And, you know, he wasn't just jumped on.

15:10G: He had time to sort of be able to adjust, maybe relax, maybe chat, maybe. I don't know. But I do think I see so many couples, as you can imagine. And everybody says they're too busy. They're too busy and they're too tired. And so if you don't prioritize, everything else is prioritized. kids are prioritized social life sport everything else always food in the fridge work yeah everything else is prioritized except the couple and even if people are working with me you know i'll come on i'll come on and say right okay how did it go oh we didn't do it what do you mean you didn't do it the homework what do you mean you didn't do it we didn't do it okay why we just life took over and sometimes i just sort of say to them do you know yeah life takes over but what do your kids really want?

15:57G: What do they want? They want mum and dad together. That's what they want. They don't care about the next play date or the next social occasion or the next birthday party. In the end, they want mum and dad together. So if mum and dad aren't prioritising their relationship, it just feels to me, it doesn't make sense. So what is it?

16:16Karen Doherty: Because it's so, I find this so fascinating. We've had people on the podcast before that say, and I truly believe this, the more sex or intimacy that you have that you that you practice the more you you want it you crave it you know it's it's like it's like an itch that you scratch you know it's like you just get used to it and you want it more and it becomes more appealing but some something about and I don't have this and I don't think you have this people get the ick about their partners that they get a bit allergic to them they just think oh god get off me and oh I'm too knackered and why would

16:47Zo: never touched like i get that like sometimes i need my own space yes i'm an only child i know that i need my own space i cannot have a full weekend of seeing people all the time like i know that about myself yes so then if i've had a weekend like that and then i get into bed and i'm like oh my god i'm on my own oh my god this is so nice and then like my husband comes in and he's like that and i'm like oh my god please just how long has it gone for that long no no but it's like I think that's what people get. And especially when they've got young kids, they feel like they don't have any personal space and it's nothing to do with the partner.

17:21Zo: It's just to do with no personal space. Yeah.

17:24G: And the kids all over them. All over them. They're touched out. They're just exhausted. They can't give anymore. So that's part of having kids. Yeah. And so again, you have to think about it, don't you? You have to think about, actually, this is the downside of having the kids. so let's make arrangements to avoid it it's the only way but couples couples have other priorities I don't know they've they've lost they've lost the art of prioritizing the couple yeah themselves and their own well-being their own connection such a good point and sometimes it's even like

17:59Zo: as simple as like I mean I know that about myself I've always known that about myself that I need my own time on a girl's holiday I get up before everyone else so I can have like yeah an hour she let people have a line by the way I just I know that she's like I'm up tinkle tinkle I'm like no one wake up I want to be on my own but my husband now knows like say for instance at the end of the day say if I go and have a bath even for 20 minutes I don't want anyone to come in I do not want anyone to come and talk to me and once I've had that I'm like you're okay you're pre-charged i'll talk i'll listen i'll you know all of those things but i know but i think it's really hard to get to that i was just going to say yeah you are blessed here

18:49G: because you have a level of communication you're not offending each other if you say no i need time that's fine he takes he doesn't take it as a rejection he doesn't take it as some sort of criticism you've got a really good communication flow there not everybody has got that um and that's a big part of my work is to get that communication flowing like that okay so what I'll never forget working in Canary Wharf I mean this is years and years and years ago and an older couple were in and um they were sitting down they'd come psychosexually and he said oh do you know what if I get hit of three out of ten times I try I'm doing well and it stayed with me it was so down to earth she laughed and said yeah I do have a lot of headaches and they were just perfect together it was that lovely moment where those two people just sort of they knew each other the understanding yeah yeah and no no offense was caused yes no attack was perceived and that's really the biggest key to the communication is being able to know that the other one is on side yeah and trust it and and going back to the sort of scheduled sex thing because that's an interesting intimacy say intimacy because if you're always going to schedule sex you know you could still get that oh god no not again i don't want to do that yeah but if it's a scheduled connection yeah great just that it doesn't matter what you do play backgammon play cards yeah it doesn't matter do it naked do it that's what i mean exactly that's what i mean you're not in your you're not in your day clothes you have made an effort you know you've you've had a shower you've glammed up everybody says about date nights i mean for most of my clients they're absolute nightmares they get out they're tired they're exhausted the restaurant's too loud with some of my neurodivergent clients they had a particular table or they need a particular view they can't stand certain noises it's a nightmare yeah stay in create something lovely at home get the kids to bed or out if they're teenagers a night that they're out and just hang out and also talking

20:48Karen Doherty: about sex and intimacy like you said really talking about it there is something about um us as as brits we find death you know money and sex impossible to discuss if we could just hold it the way that we talk about you know love or the way that we talk about our friendships let's talk to our partners about it and it doesn't like you said it doesn't need to be offensive it's not about shutting them down it's about explaining and also it's that for me it's that middle meeting in the middle again yes you know it's like he she you want it more than he he does let's meet in the

21:18G: middle but it's about opening up as well opening up to the possibility of change you know lots of people with kids get stuck in a routine well how about thinking about that and actually that doesn't work you know once every couple of years your body's changing your body's changing your relationship's changing you might like different things but that never gets communicated because you never actually sit down and have a have a bit of a chat about it or something that you that you might have seen that turned you on or that you heard and turned you on or that you saw you know you're watching a program people don't talk about that stuff and and that's that's the way through that's the way to open up the conversation oh he's hot you know quite fancied him but that's it why did you fancy him you know why yeah well actually da da da da da da da yeah and that's something that it can that that can open up maybe something new for you too

22:08Zo: yeah i really like it it's brilliant feeling like managing my husband's emotions as well as the kids help i mean we both say this a lot yeah husband's emotions and kids so like them she's not just managing her kids emotions she also has to manage her husband's emotions as well yeah yeah i mean

22:29G: i think a lot of people are in that that situation in their houses you know they're they're it's like a little it's like a little cauldron isn't it with everything bubbling and you know then it just some some yeah um the thing that i bulk out when this when this is said the thing that sort of sticks in my throat is why are you having to manage another adult yeah yeah i don't get that um and a lot of a lot of the work is around actually getting getting couples to relate adult to adult because uh mums can turn into a sort of maternal and maternal over facilitators And that is not good for a relationship.

23:09G: You know, nobody wants, another adult doesn't necessarily want a mum or somebody too controlling. That's not helpful. So maybe the conversation is with you too about actually why isn't he controlling his own emotions? Yes. Because what pattern is he setting for the kids? If you've got emotionally dysregulated kids plus an emotional dysregulated husband, that's too much for one person. There's two adults in that relationship. So I would be definitely having a word about.

23:40Zo: How did you approach that? Like, how would she approach speaking to her husband about the fact that he can't regulate his emotions?

23:48G: So that's definitely an adult conversation. So that's not that's not thrown into something around the kids. It is around him. There are reasons why people can't manage their regulating their nervous systems. There are reasons. Is he overstressed? Does he not do enough exercise? Is he drinking too much alcohol? or they I don't want to say one but sure there are many many many reasons why people including neurodivergence why people are very very quick to fire up and it is the it's the unpicking of that the unpicking of the triggers what makes him fire up probably when he comes in from work or finishes work or or comes downstairs kids are full on he's overwhelmed straight away and that will be a trigger that will be a flashpoint he won't be able to manage it um and so he will escalate so will the kids escalate i mean that i post that after school piece is just so difficult for families that's interesting it's so difficult i think as well and i don't know this is probably one of the

24:49Zo: downsides of the covid movement where people started working from home is that there's no coming out of the office and having the travel time to like come down that's right and then going straight into the family home because I find it I work from home I work for myself so I it my parents actually pick the kids up from school but I walk across the garden straight into the kitchen and it hits me straight away whereas you know previous life I would have got on the tube put a podcast in yeah come you know calm down yeah calm down on the way home and then come straight home and I think that's really difficult can you sneak out the back and go around for a walk for a little half an hour no I mean I do sometimes like I do such finish work and then I'll like I've got like a gym next to the garage and I'll like go in there and I'll just go on the reformer for like 20 minutes yeah I'll just lay there or actually just phone a friend or like voice note someone anything basically yeah but I think you have to because Because if you come in from like a really heightened conversation or you've been on a call or been working on a proposal for hours and then you go straight into mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, you're like, that's just impossible.

26:05Zo: It's critical that people take that time out.

26:07G: And you're absolutely right. COVID has a lot to answer for. But that coming out of the office downstairs straight into the melee is just terrible for most people. Yeah. So, yeah, I work a lot with that sort of getting people to take the break. Yes. actually take the break. Years ago, I had a client that, you know, at her wits end with the kids by the time he walked in the door. But by the time he walked in the door, he was over. He was over it. He just couldn't manage. He'd sit down in the chair and go to sleep. Now, that wasn't his fault. His nervous system was exhausted and he couldn't deal with it any other way.

26:43G: But until we actually understood what was going on with him, she was furious. Absolutely furious. We're desperate for that desperate for that connection or that relief but you have to know your partner and if they can't do it then there has to be a break critical moment after after work take some time out

27:02Karen Doherty: we've started doing this thing where we say to each other um where are you what's your percentage yeah um and dozer will say do you know what i'm good i'm 85 and i feel really great i've got this you have 20 minutes and then it doesn't work when we're both like i'm at 15 and suddenly we're going fuck we're gonna have to do this together but we've really started checking in on that level

27:24G: and that's really working it works brilliantly yeah yeah it works brilliantly because it's it's a team isn't it yeah and it's reinforcing the team i love that well then that's really good

27:32Karen Doherty: thank you yeah yeah and also with the regulation thing just jumping on um jumping on that well sorry managing emotions i think sometimes we're so desperate to sort of pander and as women we want to make it better don't we we're like we've got to make it okay we've got to make it okay for the kids we've got to make it okay for our husbands but actually sometimes they just need they just need to be left to be like do you know what you handle that i'm not gonna i'm not gonna feed into it you know dozzle was throwing all his toys at the pram last night on our bike ride and me and the kids just turned around and went do you know what this is a bit shit we're gonna cycle home and he went what what do you mean i'm gonna carry on biking we went off you go then take the dog and we just went home and they were like why is he so grumpy i was like don't worry about it just let it go like yeah before i would have gone oh what's wrong are you okay can i try and make it

28:12G: again i just thought no he needs a minute i need a minute that's fine it's more than fine yeah And that again is that going back to the point we were talking about earlier in the session, he is an adult. Yeah. So can we treat him like an adult, please? You know, that's not try to smooth him over and make things okay because that's not your job. No. Exactly. Yeah.

28:33Zo: We'll be right back after this short break.

28:39Zo: Everyone treats summer like it owes you happiness. Long days, pool parties, your best life on a loop. So what does it mean when you feel worse? The summer blues are real. It's why summer is one of the busiest stretches of the year for people starting therapy. Grow Therapy is here for all the moments when you decide you want more. More support, more clarity, more tools. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. The therapist you want takes your insurance on Grow. Grow accepts over 125 insurance plans.

29:18Zo: Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash ACAST today to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

29:39G: This week on Help, I Sexted My Boss.

29:42Karen Doherty: So what is the etiquette when you discover you've been drying your hair and face With a child that your partner has exclusively been using to dry his And dare I say I might adopt that

29:52Zo: For today's episode of Help I Sex and My Boss Who do you think was the funniest? Myself or William? Vote now They're going to vote for you anyway, George

30:01Karen Doherty: When you try to be funny, it's never that funny Listen and watch wherever you get your podcasts

30:15Karen Doherty: welcome back to this episode of made by mamas now where were we oh this one's funny this one did make me giggle how not to totally hate your husband i feel permanently irritated

30:25G: i love this well i think we all hate our partners it's a love-hate relationship isn't it you can't help it i mean that old adage familiarity breeds contempt it sometimes does come sometimes it's true but it's all about um real real dislike is all about resentment and that literally comes back to non-negotiation that that that couple have not talked to each other for a long time about their needs what they what they need from each other what's expected as a as a couple and if they have they haven't actually agreed on it that's what's happening there they just haven't agreed and they have not managed to hold in mind actually what it was that brought them together and work back from that, what did bring us together and whether actually any of that is still life.

31:13Karen Doherty: So that's what I was going to ask then. Is it okay if that no longer exists?

31:18G: I don't think it will exist. Maybe you were 20, now you're 40. How can it, you can remember it, it was a nice memory and those are some of the things and some of the aspects of that will still be true but not the limerence, not the intensity, not the passion. It's whether you actually like your partner you know can you have a good chat with him do you like your partner those are things to build on um so it and this is the brilliant thing about couples they they develop yeah all the time they develop with your development and it's very exciting they you know they they they're a great vehicle if you really do want personal growth um being a good couple because there's constant challenge constant mediation constant discussion there's nothing more generative

32:06Zo: actually than that yeah because I do think like I you know you said at 20 you're not going to be the same as a couple at 40 obviously I've been with my husband 20 years yeah we are completely different people now and it just so happened that we've grown together there's been periods where we haven't we've been you know far apart I'm sure and we've just you know we've decided we're you know sticking with it and and it's come it's come good you know but it's just the way it is but I think it's so unrealistic for people to think that it's going to be great all the time because it's just not no and you're not like this person like I you know hate your husband God, I've had years of hating my husband at points.

32:51Zo: Yes. But there's always been the like, I don't know, sort of non-spoken agreement that we're. You're going to get through it. Yeah. And like we're friends. I don't know. Like that is just that.

33:05G: So most couples struggle with this sort of this dance between being yourself, your own self growing and being interdependent with your partner. You can't have a relationship unless it's interdependent. Otherwise, you're just mates, really. It's got to be that mutual vulnerability. It's not a relationship without it. But the dance between being able to be yourself and let your partner be himself or herself, that is the tricky bit because that hits into all our base fears, really, all our insecurities. if somebody else is going off and doing something, that anything can come up, especially if we don't feel good, if we're not feeling good in that particular phase and we feel threatened by the other finding a different life alongside you.

33:54G: So it's really tricky. It's got to be navigated and negotiated. And again, that's where I come back to actually a couple has to have an agreement that the couple is important as are each individual's growth, but the couple is important because you've got this so far you've managed to hold on to we're staying together, we're a couple, that's it, which is brilliant. It's brilliant and you've managed to get through it and that needs to carry on. That needs to carry on. We're going to get through this and fingers crossed.

34:24Zo: Yeah. Yeah. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. But, you know, can people just grow apart and that there's no bad blood they could just grow up yeah they can yeah you do see that yeah

34:36G: and yeah of course yes and then that's fine I mean people say to me oh you know do people are you always trying to keep people together no no uh do you want them to break up or do you know straight away when they break when they're gonna break up no no the work is the exploration because people will um will move away from each other they met for the wrong reasons it doesn't doesn't work anymore the key to the work then is for both of them to explore completely why they feel differently and how they're going to feel differently how they're going to manage that

35:08Karen Doherty: that separation I think it's such a beautiful point that you just made about finding independence but still being intertwined yes you know because because I don't know about you George but I think it's very hard to get that right and actually I look at your relationship with James and I think you've got that nailed on because you both have your own lives within that space. Yeah. But you also are truly committed and you're the best mum and the most incredible family as a unit. But you do do stuff for you and you do it guilt free. Yeah.

35:34Zo: Do you know what he doesn't though? Right. That's really interesting because I, oh gosh, I mean, if you listen to this podcast, anyone listening over nine years, like God, this has gone round in circles. This is like, you know, nine years ago I would have been the guilty one, like going, oh no, I can't do anything with myself and he's doing it. you know it's gone round yeah but I I have speaking to one of his colleagues the other day yeah and I never speak I never see them obviously and I said oh you know James really doesn't do anything for himself like he doesn't do anything himself anymore I really want him to do stuff for himself why is he not doing stuff for himself um and he does like on the surface he goes out for drinks after work but I mean like hobbies you know like he doesn't he loves paddle and he'll only he He'll like check in with me and be like, oh, is it okay?

36:21Zo: Like 8.30 on Tuesday, are we doing anything? And I'm like, yeah, just do it. Like, it's fine. Like, don't ask me. It's absolutely fine. Like, you do not need to worry. But I was saying to his colleague, I was like, I really want him to like feel like it's okay. And he said to me, but George, he doesn't want to miss out on like all of this family stuff. He feels bad, feels guilty. And I'm like, what? Why? Why does he feel? I don't know why. And I'm like, God, I don't.

36:50Karen Doherty: I don't feel an awful lot of guilt coming from you which is great

36:53Zo: I don't I feel guilty for ages not anymore not at all and it was just I don't know what an interesting what an interesting the tables have turned like massively because I would have said years ago he didn't feel like well maybe he did I don't know but it was just he's actually spoken to someone at work and said oh no I don't I don't want to miss out I want to be there for the kids I want to watch cricket

37:17G: here I want to do this and I'm like what yeah I think this is tapping into something really interesting and it's it's yeah it's something that I've I think a lot about and that is um men and how they feel a bit lost yeah they don't really they they're not as confident look at you to you know look at the men next to you they're not as confident as you men in this world are very unsure of what's expected of them um you know they the old models are all gone they're all gone i call it the churn relationships are really in this this place where men don't really know what they're doing women are far more educated they've got access to work and social groups and conversations that they never had and men are sort of floundering they're not quite sure how they're meant to be in relationships in life actually I mean the social media is full of it isn't it but this was this was obvious years ago um in Canary Wharf as as women started coming into the into the fray and I think you know maybe he just doesn't feel confident enough he just doesn't know what to do he's got a few blank pages about actually well how am I supposed to be yeah no

38:37Zo: I think you're so right. Yeah.

38:39G: What is expected of me? Because my old role of just being breadwinner, that's long gone.

38:44Zo: Yeah.

38:44G: I'm not exactly a new man because I'm out there, you know, working. So how does it work? Do you know? Wow, gosh.

38:49Zo: I do think that you absolutely hit that because I think he is, he came out of a job that he did. He played football for years and years and years. And so he could only focus on that. And there was an understanding that he just focused on that. Did that, yes. There was a complete, like, that was the understanding. And so, you know, we probably, like, tiptoed around him a bit sometimes. Then he's five years out of that now, nearly. Five years? I think nearly, maybe four or five years out of that. And now he's, like, in another world where he's got dads who have done that for their whole lives. They've not been tapped out, but, you know, they've just been focusing on their careers.

39:32Zo: And they are talking to him about they've missed everything they've missed. you know yes this so important art you should go to watch the cricket match you should do this you should be that this stuff and he's getting that now where he definitely his dad wouldn't have ever said that no no one else in his life would have ever said any of that to him so he's got that coming in but then he's also got like probably the the flip side of it where there's probably half the dads at work who are still you know out and and is all down onto the mum yeah and he's probably sitting in an area where he's like oh well I kind of want a bit of that that they've got because actually I'd quite like to just fuck off and go and play golf yeah but also I've got this bit that someone else is saying to me you don't want to miss out and he's almost gone full like the other way like no I want to be there for everything and I don't want to miss anything and I've done that I've already I've already done that bit I've been through that bit and I'm now like no there's a balance I can tap out of some things and I will be there for other things but

40:38G: he's in that bit now where he doesn't know he's in that sort of loss of identity really isn't he you know from especially with the career moving out of that career which is a hundred percent full on yeah into a sort of a well it's like an abyss isn't it what where do I go now and and these differing voices lots of different voices coming in yeah it's it's that identity that's what now so how how am I going to be a a man and be a dad yeah um very very interesting and that is going on

41:08Karen Doherty: everywhere do you do do you hear that a lot with the work that you do yes I see it a lot I see it

41:13G: a lot I see men being confused yeah I call it blank pages sometimes and they get but people really respond to it yeah I don't know what to do I don't know what she's been doing all this time I don't understand so I've just got to be there and I've got to follow or or or they abdicate because they don't know. So it's getting them on board. It's helping that. There's such a lot of talk about empowering women. And I think a lot of men need a bit of support as well. Is that going to be deeply unpopular? No, no, no. Because we want to have these chats.

41:46Zo: I think it's really important.

41:47Karen Doherty: I feel like that could be a whole podcast. Yeah, definitely. Can you save a marriage if you're on the brink of divorce? Any tips on how to reset and start again?

41:58G: I would say that you can but you probably need a bit of help yes I would say that you probably do need to go into a room with a therapist and just have a real think about it that's to my point earlier if people want to separate that's fine but maybe they need to know why they're separating because just because you're fighting all the time there's no reason to separate you know the fighting the fighting can be actually managed differently. And what are you fighting about? Most people are just fighting about the same three things over and over again. And then what's underneath the fight? What's actually going on underneath the fight?

42:35G: And that's where a therapist can sometimes help demystify and pull back a situation that's become critical, but that's because people can't pull themselves back. But a therapist can at least examine what's going on underneath.

42:50Karen Doherty: yeah and speaking from experience i have been there having stood right on the edge with him and therapy is the only thing that brought us back okay and what a what a blessing i'm so proud of us because we work so hard on it but i have been where that person has been yeah and i'm so grateful that it worked out the way it has because i love him so much we just couldn't communicate it's the communication we could not communicate we were so angry so resentful so much shouting so many arguments and it's just saved us you can come back if you want to come

43:19G: back you can come back you can yes if you want to it's it's what you do it's sliding doors there are there are times when somebody's just gone too far and they can't come back right they can't and that's when you know you'll know that in the room as a therapist I'll know that in the room I'm working with them I'll know that that this is not going to come back and then that's the point

43:40Karen Doherty: at which the work sort of shifts yeah because I guess then are you helping we'll ask you the question at then what what are you doing at that point are you helping them leave the marriage i'm

43:49G: helping them as helping them understand why they're leaving right right yeah that's the key understand why they're leaving is that sad can be sometimes it can be very empowering for both of them they've tried and it didn't work so sometimes it can be really empowering yeah would you ever

44:09Karen Doherty: say to a couple if you see it would you ever say to a couple i would you not encourage them to to separate but if you feel that the marriage has gone too far you know one way and they can't or would you always try and be impartial and be led by them I um it obviously try and be impartial but

44:29G: just recently actually the situation between the couple had become so toxic and nasty they could not communicate there was just this massive massive massive repetition of a trigger a defense, a blame. You couldn't get anywhere. The conversation had closed down and they couldn't control it. So in that case, just thinking about helping them take some space. And I was very clear about this. Why don't you just take some space? We're not talking end of marriage. And this is something else that people need to understand. You can take some space sometimes and it's really helpful. You can take a week, a month, just live somewhere else for a while, take some space and you don't know how much fresh air that can that can bring into the relationship and breathe new life into it how do you ask for that space do you ask for a trial separation do you how does how

45:27Karen Doherty: does that work and and obviously there has to be rules i think trial separation is a little bit

45:31G: sort of you know if you're asking for space then you do have to say there has to be some ground rules you can't just ask for space and then you know you're off dating or on hinge or whatever you can't do that that's not space that seems like jumping a little bit too far yeah that's not space that's you you want you want out that's different that's different but having some space in order to and especially if you're working with a therapist that space can be so positive because you're coming back every week you're going to see that therapist every week that's where you that's where you reconnect that's where you rethink so but asking for it can be tricky because of course people feel abandoned they feel they feel rejected and it's not always the right thing yeah okay it's not always the right thing but sometimes sometimes if it's got just too much if a couple really cannot communicate then actually taking some space but still coming to the therapy still working at it can be helpful yeah just before we say goodbye could you leave us

46:29Karen Doherty: with some really kind of practical tips and advice for anybody advice for anybody kind of going through maybe sort of a rocky period where the disconnect seems to be there and you know they maybe feel a bit lost in their marriage for anybody kind of listening to the podcast that

46:42G: needs a the first thing the first thing you have to do is talk to the other about how bad it is okay you've got to talk to your partner about how you're feeling um because that what happens is just quiet resentment quiet anger and then what's what's going to happen is you're just on individual separate travelators and you will that will split up you know it can go on for years but you you won't you it'll split up because as soon as you're in that sort of situation any third can come in any third that's addiction that's another person that's anything can come in when there's when you've completely lost the communication so if you feel that bad then make a date go for a walk a long walk a hike or something and you don't climb a mountain yeah It's not necessarily actually sitting across a dinner table because that can just make everything so intense.

47:33G: Go for a series of long walks and really talk it out. Talk out where you are, exactly how bad you feel, because it's entirely plausible that your partner actually doesn't realize how bad it is. And one gets to breaking point and the other one's not quite there. Yeah. So it's really, that's the first port of call really. and don't say that you can't do that. If you can't do it, get into a therapist office because that's the first thing they'll have you doing.

48:02Zo: That's great.

48:03G: Brilliant.

48:03Zo: Thank you so much. I mean, we could have actually gone on and on because there were so many more questions, but that was brilliant.

48:08G: Anytime. Thank you.

48:09Zo: Thank you so much for coming on. That was wonderful.

48:11Karen Doherty: Oh my God, I want to talk all day.

48:13G: Amazing.

48:14Zo: Thank you.

48:15G: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

48:26G: holidays are meant to be fun so why does booking one suddenly feel like a full-time job price is

48:32Karen Doherty: going up rules changing too many options bring back groceries i say or you could listen to the holiday expert show the podcast helping you travel best spend less and know what on earth is going on i'm charles dickinson the holiday expert and i'm james robinson the holiday slacker every wednesday

48:49G: and friday we'll help you make sense of travel save money and answer your holiday dilemmas listen

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