Joy Mbakwe on What Needs To Change in the Education System

0:28Zoe and Georgia will be here in just a moment with Made by Mummers. know you're born on your podcast app and hit follow so new episodes land straight in your feed. Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas the podcast. I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot. We really have. Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, We're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands.

1:04And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review. You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mummers. But for now, George, should we get into it? Hello, it's just me today. Zoe is off gallivanting on the radio. I mean, actually not gallivanting, she is working. But I don't really know what I've got to catch up on. I've got a gold medalist gymnast now in my house and she's definitely changed since she won her gold medal. She now thinks she is the Queen of Sheba. So that's brilliant for managing. And I look forward to further competitions to see where that takes her diva behavior.

1:44But yeah, not much going on. We had quite a chilled half term. We made no plans. Kids went to a couple of clubs. a lot of it was spent for them laying in front of the TV, playing the PlayStation, like doing all the stuff that I don't really let them do during this term time but yeah, I've let them have a little bit of a break but they are back to school now and I'm back to driving them round to all their different clubs and hating my life again, so that's brilliant but this episode is actually one that we've been wanting to do for a long time we've been wanting to talk about schools education all of that kind of stuff as I have spoken about like I find it so confusing um looking around schools knowing what I'm supposed to be looking at actually even working out whether I want to do the traditional secondary school route or whether I want to go online or so I was way more chilled about this than I am but Luna is in the year earlier than Axel although they're only four weeks apart so let's look at next year and see how she is then shall we but yeah we wanted to get someone on who really knew the education like space but also is a parent because I think that is really important I think you can look at education as a teacher and then you can look education as a parent and this is exactly what this guest brings so let's get into the chat we are chatting to Joy and Backway.

3:18We talk a lot about schools on this podcast and what is right for our kids obviously it's such a huge decision lots of people feel that schooling isn't necessarily what it used to be they might feel a bit let down by the system so we wanted to bring an expert in education to the podcast today and that is what we've done an ex-teacher turned trailblazer someone to discuss all things education and the school system. It is Joy Mbakwe. Yay! Thank you so much for Joy. Thank you. Looking gorgeous. And I hear your husband didn't necessarily approve of your outfit. He questioned me before I left. He was like, oh, is that what you're wearing?

3:53And I was like, yeah. I made a last minute decision, a choice, a change. And he was like, oh, okay. And I didn't want to, you know, beg for his affirmations. I was like, I just put my jacket on and left. But when you said to me, oh, I love your outfit, I was like, yeah, come back. joy just before we get into the chat do you want to give the audience a little bit of background on you like you're a teacher why did you get into teaching and then why did you leave so i just love children and i know in society like people i realize as a teacher a lot of people don't love children in the way that i do like my young my daughter went with my parents out for her birthday my mom's birthday and when they saw her my parents walk in with the toddler my daughter they all kind of like grown and kind of looked away because they're thinking oh this toddler's going to ruin our experience and I think that's how society sometimes views children as like a nuisance but I didn't I never had that perspective I love children I love big kids I love secondary school children I love them taller than me they think that I'm their mate they think I'm their aide they think I'm a sixth former in school all of the things and I got in teaching because I just wanted not just to make a difference but to teach I love teaching and I love learning and I love young people I love how vulnerable they are I love how open they are I love how honest they are they're candid if they think that you'll they'll tell you miss that lesson this lesson is boring you've got and then you're like okay so what do we do next and so that's why I got into teaching why I left I think it's incompatible with motherhood and it's a painful irony it's so painful to know that actually I had to choose rearing my children like over helping the children that I loved so much and if I'm not gonna be honest I'm still coming to terms with that I I still miss them dearly.

5:31I still think about them. I still feel a lot of guilt around leaving. I wish I could go back, but I can't be answerable for those children and my own. And one day my children will say to me, mum, you left the house at 6.30 and came home at eight o 'clock every night. You were tired on the weekends. You would crash every half term and we didn't have your time. And who am I going to point to? The hundreds of kids who no longer have, I no longer speak to and say, this is where I did my parenting, my nurturing, my love. And so I had to make a really difficult decision. Gosh, wow. when you say that you speak so articulately about it because actually I guess you've prioritized which is the right thing to do you prioritize being there for them rather than doing something that maybe fills your cup up but that's a really that's a big dichotomy isn't it it's so hard and I don't know if men have to make the same choice I don't know if they do but I feel like even though the the teaching profession is one one sector I think that there are so many women who have had to make this massive decision I saw this statistic that said that so many mothers start businesses after becoming yeah women excuse me hi and here we are yeah here I am why is that and so we've had to find other ways to fill our cups because we still have that feeling of emptiness and need to be filled but our children give us so much and it's just this difficult decision to make isn't it yeah so you know what though you know the fact that you say oh you know I love children I love older children and I feel guilty about leaving like that just makes me you I just wish you and my teacher i think you should go back to school actually let's talk let's talk about the school system it's hot topic at the moment lots of people that we see are now homeschooling um georgia discusses online um you know doing the online school my kids are at state primary you know we've got we've got friends that are at private school what are your sort of it's a big question but what are your thoughts about the let's just say conventional school system sure I think that before I became a mother, I didn't really believe in homeschooling.

7:30I didn't really get it. I was like, well, you're not an expert. I've trained for this. Send your children to me and I will teach them. But when I became a mother, when the shoe was on the other foot, I realized, oh, there are so many things that are happening in this system. There is a way you're being institutionalized that as a parent, I may not be comfortable with. And that's not just messaging around certain societal topics or taboo topics. It's just the way that even the way they're disciplined. Think about detentions. My child doesn't go on the naughty step. She doesn't have that. I bring her to me.

8:02I speak to her. She offers an apology and then we move on. A detention is 30 minutes after school. You know, it's these kind of punitive ways of training children. And I think it's quite archaic. You know, the rest of the world is online and hybrid. Teachers are not. What are we preparing our children for? The world, even the fact that children are having to memorize quotes for an exam. Yeah. AI exists. That is just, it's just at odds with the world that they're going into. And schools aren't keeping up. And so I understand why parents are saying, actually, I want a bit more power. I want to be able to nurture and grow my child in the way that I wish to.

8:37And schools aren't cutting it. And so I get why, you know, schools are, they're a hot topic. And I get why everybody's trying to figure out where should I place my child because this system is clearly broken. Yeah. Joy, do you know what? You literally just, this is all the stuff that goes through my head. So my dad was a headmaster, right? I was brought up with a dad in, you know, the education. He's so passionate about education. Like even now, like bless him, he picks my kids up from school. He's trying to like tap parents up to tutor the kids. And I'm like, dad, like, can you stop? Well, I've read the creative writing in school.

9:12It's very good. I'm going to go in and speak to the head. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You're a grandparent in this playground. Like, know your place. Like, please don't. So I've got that. Like, my dad's quite old school. like you know he loves pen and paper and handwriting and all this stuff and we have these conversations all the time where I'm like dad cool I get it like you want Axel to write really beautifully fine but he's never gonna write like on a piece of paper and then we have this you know like tussle oh no I know I know but it's the reality it is reality and I sort of understand like where he's coming from but then I go to look at secondary schools and this is where it all came about I've never really questioned primary school to be honest I sent my kids to local school we've always been really happy like you know they love it they come home happy you know all that sort of stuff second I started looking around secondary schools I started questioning what am I what are my views here because I'm looking around um there's thousands of children in some of these schools there's so many different subjects so much their testing is just memory which what like you don't have to know you don't have to memorize anything I mean like I did really well at school with exams because I had a good memory not because I know anything about those subjects and so I sit there like this just doesn't feel right to me and so I started exploring like other options like I looked at online school I thought about hiring like an ex-teacher to come in and teach the kids for a few hours a day and then they could do other hobbies I mean, I'm still very much the beginning.

10:49You're the beginning of the journey, aren't you, George? Yeah, but I think, when you're looking around schools, what are you looking for? Because when you go to these open days, they're putting on their best face. Of course, of course. And they're wheeling out their best kids. And you think, really? Is this the true picture? I think my first thing is always open morning over open evening. Okay. Open evenings. people have you know told me I'm you know open evenings can be a good use of time I think they're they're good for parents who are working okay but if you wouldn't go to a shop that was closed to see how it was functioning you wouldn't go into a kitchen where every the chefs were away why would you go to a school where no learning is happening and walk around the empty classrooms and see the books on the desks and say oh this I get a sense of the school you just simply can't and so I'd say open mornings first and foremost I would say if you can try and book some time outside of the open morning so some schools are quite open you can come any day and so if you want to see what's happening when the red carpet isn't being rolled out I would say take that route in answer to your question really specifically what should I be looking for I think as a parent they always say mothers just know I think our instinct can be trusted you know I definitely I say that now as a parent not as my teacher hat on as a parent you just you know when something's just not right with a space or your child I think you can use that and carry that into a school and you can just kind of ground yourself I'm not really sure trust that I know that parents often we often undermine ourselves like oh what's that rooted in I'm not an expert I don't know no you do know you know when something's right you know when something's not right I think obviously the atmosphere of the school how it feels what it sounds like how the children how are they happy are the staff happy when you walk into the rooms are they learning are their heads on desks that kind of thing what are they learning what are they reading are they are they engaged in it who do you see around the school what are the grounds like what are they what's the equipment like and you know I had at first I was at first well that feels overwhelming and there's so many questions which is why I was when I was writing that at first I thought oh no there's not that many questions to ask there's not that many questions to answer and then I started writing out all the questions that I would ask as a as a teacher turned parent and there were so many and that's why I created a checklist I actually created one and I'm gonna launch it this week because I'm like I need to send it to us first and I'm gonna send it out and I'm just gonna say do you know what I just think it so hard as a pet as a I'm a teacher and I've observed schools so many times which is why I know exactly what to look for I can trust myself but poor parents you go into this school and it's like I haven't been into into a school for 20 years 30 no when was the last time I was here how am I meant to know what a good lesson looks like or what a good book looks like who is going to help me and so I've created this checklist so that people can kind of skim look through the questions know what they're looking for and then go in feeling a bit more empowered I think this is a really important tool that can be used for parents if I'm gonna be honest do teachers feel empowered um to look at the differences in every child or do teachers feel that they just have to get through the day with their checklist you're gonna get me in trouble but yeah you know you right nail on the head they don't have enough time I think there are so many and I want to just hold space for teachers because they're trying me yeah we're trying they're trying we're trying because I know sometimes because of the way the profession is because you care so like you care so much you go with such a clean heart really great intentions but the system the time there is no time there are things after school every single day there are parents evenings that run to eight o 'clock at night sometimes and you've got to be back in seven o 'clock the next day you are so burnt out there are 40 000 teachers leaving each year wow there are we're leaving in the thousands why because we're not even lasting up to five years some of us by five years so many of us are gone I lasted 10 right and so do they have space for every child absolutely not they don't there are 30 children in the class special educational needs are on the rise you know we have more diagnoses coming out and so as a parent if I if my child had needs I'd want to feel and I'd want to hope that my child is being looked after being seen by their teachers but with what time if I I remember there was one school I worked in They required me to mark every single book, every single week.

14:59I had four classes of 30 children. Wow. Every single book, every single week. I was overwhelmed. I was so afraid that they would think I was lazy. I just did it. And so when it was time to read the profiles of the students and get to know the students one on one, it's like you're just ushering the kids out. OK, you go. Let me just I need to get through this. And I'm trying to do this to be a good teacher. Actually, it's in speaking to the children, getting to know them, getting to know their parents, calling home to say, oh, your child's been brilliant today. That's what really builds the love of learning, not marking a book to show that I'm teaching.

15:36so so i mean gosh this is again i where do we start to dive in but who is putting this pressure on the school system to continually be you know being stuck in this very archaic system that feels to me that hasn't changed since the 90s when i was at school the early you know late 80s it's like come on now surely it's time to tear it apart and let's start again they've got a real opportunity to do something different but who holds the keys to that and how do we make that shift Such a great question. I think we missed a trick post-COVID. I think we had a moment where we could have said, actually, we've been online, we've been in the building, we have a new way of seeing the world because of everything that's happened.

16:17Maybe let's start again. But I read recently that the government are thinking of introducing a new reading test for year eight students. Why? Why? Why? Why? Is that because lots of year eight students aren't reading at the level they should be? I think there are some concerns. I can only speculate I think there are some concerns I need to do some more reading around this but when I saw that I thought to myself oh wow so who everything that we do now in school so this is what happens a new idea is given is put out okay year eight students have to take this test and then schools are told this news and then we have to just change everything in light of this change yeah and so it means everything that year six year seven are going to do will be to make sure that our children look like we are doing a good job for them do you know what i mean and so in terms of who is to blame i don't want to cast blame on anybody it's more that we get them so offset of change their framework for example they're changing the way they operate but that is going to impact school so instead of us thinking about how we can teach the best of our ability we're thinking about how we can make sure that we impress people who are going to come and see our schools it's always that whole thing of you know passing a test whether that be the school passing the test of getting 98 % of kids with these scores or kids passing the test but I find it really I get that there has to be some sort of marker of where you are or whatever but like my son at the moment he's in he's just gone into year five and they're talking about year six sats year six sats year six sats and he's like oh I really need to do this because of the sats and I'm like mate don't worry about the sats and he's like no no no I really need to worry about the sats and I'm like, you need to focus on your 11 plus.

17:59Forget about the SATs. What are the SATs? 11 plus will help me. I won't have to pay school fees. So, you know, like, and he's like, no, no, no. SATs is like, I don't know. Is it just, it's like a test at the end of year six. At the end of year six. And what does that, why do we have SATs? That's a really great question because what we found is what the children learn in year six for SATs, we don't actually really use, from an English perspective, I'm an English teacher, we don't really use it in i love you english teachers you were my favorite you're the only one i ever did well in english english and drama always um but yeah we don't there isn't much carry on i guess and i think you're right to say to your son like this isn't this isn't the thing and i think you're probably also saying to him and you're not defined by the test result like you're not defined like you're more than the test that's what you're also giving him because if you I remember once I used to tutor and I used to tutor, they were like four, year four and year five.

18:56So let's say they're eight. And is that eight? Yeah, eight to ten. Eight to ten. And I remember once it was like classes of children who were preparing for the 11 plus. And one boy, he just started to cry. He just started to cry. And then he left the room. And I said to him, what's the matter? He said, I can't do it. It's too much. It's too much. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. And he's crying and he gathers himself. I say to him, shall I tell your parents? He's like, no, don't tell my parents. I was caught, don't tell them that this happened. He can't be more than nine years old.

19:27And I think it's so important that you have parents who are like, yes, I have aspirations for you. We're gonna do this 11 plus, we're gonna go for it. But also it's okay. You know, it's okay. It's okay. We'll figure it out because you're not just the test. You're not defined by that. But there are other parents who can't give their children that. And I think that's also part of the system, right? I've spoken about the government, I've spoken about off there but also parents who high pressured want their child to do what yeah want it real bad we have to talk about this today don't we george yeah i was gonna say i found this with this whole 11 plus thing right i mean i'm a massive contradiction because i don't know where i want my kids to go to school i've got no idea i'm so confused do i want them to go to a grammar school are we gonna have to pay am i gonna homeschool are they gonna go to online i don't you are not gonna homeschool can we just please anyone that knows georgia i mean i'm not no you're just gonna to leave the podcast because you're going to be using homeschooling at all i mean i'm not going to do that but you know like i am looking at all the options so i'm like right we've got you know we've got to get up to scratch with the 11 plus my son's been having tutoring for two years maybe not for the 11 plus but just because he was good at maths and he wanted to do more right so that was cool but now you start speaking to people about the 11 plus it is wild like there are kids who have been training for the 11 plus since they're seven years old they do an hour a day and all through all through the school holidays all to pass this test to get into a grammar school like and so it's not about how bright that kid is it's just if they've learned how to take the test this is what i don't this is why i'm so confused about the whole grammar school thing because i know like axel is suited to that school he's really bright he's super driven like he would be suited to it but am i prepared to take all his hobbies away from him just for him get in just to pass a test no i'm not also can i just say i haven't gone through the grammar school system for three years and i'm not an academic it was completely the wrong environment for me because i mean i didn't even pass to get in i'm not sure how i how i got in so i got 48 but um my mom went into chats there and suddenly i was in we'll just leave it there I don't know.

21:33But so I think if he is... Oh, we would just do that. I was speaking to your mum. Bounch-a-wah. Who knew? It was that easy. Guys, it was the 90s. So I think if he is somebody that's suited to... But I don't think try and get your kid into a grammar school situation unless they're really academic because it's super high-pressured. Would that be correct? Yeah, well, no, this is what I think. And I think there's probably so many kids who have been learning how to do this test, you know, forever. then they get there and they leave because they can't cope with it yeah so then it's just so it's so confusing we'll be right back after this short break

22:12welcome back to this episode of made by mamas now where were we so how much should we be doing with our kids out of school because hearing you say that and this i feel all the first emotion that comes up is failing that's how i feel and i think it's we have to free ourselves as parents of this guilt and this shame and this feeling of failure I think we're given that in school where it's like oh you're in this set or you're on this table and this idea of like being in competition that's what they give us in schools I'm like even the testing what did you get in your test and so we carry that into adulthood we carry it and then parenting because we're working with children again for some reason we regress back and suddenly we hear things I hear all the time like oh my god am I doing enough I don't do that with my child I'm not thinking of that I remember somebody asked me the other day like oh are you going to see some private schools on your visits and at that time I wasn't and she was like oh I thought you would be oh am I do I genuinely felt such guilt like my child is bright we have the means why haven't I thought about this private schooling but because of the work that I do and just my political leaning sometimes I'm a bit it's not I did go into your private school because I felt like am I gonna feel like I had to make sure that I was making the right decision for my child to answer your question how much you should be doing i think it depends on the child it depends on the child's need it depends on your capacity for me obviously i'm an english teacher i think reading is paramount i think reading what if you can give your child a love of reading you're opening doors for them already that i think that's the most important thing making sure that they do their homework if you i know some parents don't believe in homework i know it's contentious don't shoot me but i think it's good i don't think homework is good necessarily for um the subject acknowledge as such I do believe that should be taught in school but I think the discipline of sitting down after school and just having a goal that is set or somebody's telling you to do something and you need to make sure that it's done you know that feeling of achievement delayed gratification you can't just go and start gaming or having fun just do a bit of work and then do other things I think that's important it depends on the age and the stage I know in terms of secondary school we would we demand a lot more time not from parents but from children in terms of how much time they spend after school.

24:21But I think, honestly, it's because the system is broken. I don't know why a child should spend five hours, six hours in the school day, in school, in the building, then do four hours of work afterwards. I think that's excessive. I think that's... Four hours afterwards, is that happening? I think in terms of, I think it's like an hour per subject. You ask to do an hour per subject. This is at secondary school. Imagine you're preparing for your GCSEs. Oh my God. 45 minutes an hour on each day. Yeah, so you have your timetable, especially when you're preparing for your GCSEs. You come back, they've got a timetable and you do maths, English, science.

24:52It can be three, four hours. And this is also a child will be tested on maybe a third of that. They forget it as soon as the exam is finished. Yeah, yeah, of course. So what are we teaching our young people? What are we teaching them about knowledge, about a love for learning? That's all going out the window. I don't think I've asked in your questions. I'm going to try and do that now. What should parents be doing? I think they should be doing their best. Do your best. and everybody's best looks really different whatever your best as long as you can say i've done my best with my child some parents some of them can't read that well what is your best your best might be like writing to like going to speak to a teacher and saying can you help me can you help me with this you know another parent's best might be getting a tutor that might be your best another parent's best might be sitting with their child and speaking to them while they're cooking that might be your best whatever your best is just do that and just focus on that that's what i'd say Yeah, and also for anybody listening to this, because sometimes I think, you know, the way that social media is so present in our lives now and you open up your page and you're scrolling past these beautiful little children sitting down and reading these books and, you know, sitting really nicely.

26:00And then your reality is a child that doesn't want to sit down and read, screams and shouts, can't settle before bed. And you're tearing your hair out going out, we haven't even read one page here and I've got to write in that bloody reading record. And I imagine that that is a really tough place to come from. and like you just said Joy I think doing your best is absolutely paramount with that like hold that because it can you can just feel like a total failure by the end of it going like what am I supposed to write in this bloody book when they haven't sat down to read yeah and so that's a tough reality for a lot of parents I was going to say for me sometimes I think like you know we've got back from clubs and it's late and I think does like with Axel especially does he need to read which he does anyway you know he sits by himself and reads which is what Luna does He would read not books.

26:45He's not into, he'd read magazines. He reads facts. He's looking things up. He reads as in like, he's not into fiction at all, but he does read, he reads well. He's got good understanding. But what do I think he needs more? Like in the evenings after a long day, a chat with me. I think so. Like rather than me going, oh, come on, let's read this book you're not really that interested in. Or, oh, how was school today? And then he blurts everything out. We go through, you know, emotions, like behaviors. That's learning in itself, isn't it? It's just dressed up in a different format. And you know what they need.

27:16Whereas Gigi, my daughter, still really quite struggling with reading. But she wants to. So, you know, when I get in bed with her, does she want to talk to me about friends? Not really. She wants to read. So I'm like, okay, cool. That's what I'll do with you. And that's like you say, everyone's so different. Every child is different, right? And I think that's what we're picking up on. What one child needs is different to what another child might need. And sometimes as a parent, you're trying to do what we were given in school, that one size fits all. Everybody must read. everybody that doesn't really work like that you have some children they can't sit still that's just not what they so we need to find other ways to teach you about the world and I also think with parents I do think that I my mum was also a headmistress interesting so education was big in my home my mum taught me how to read she taught me how to write and all of that and so I give that to my child but I give that to her because I am a teacher and a parent if I was not a teacher I would be doing something very different I'd be thinking about the emotional experience of my child yes like the clubs that you're speaking about building the whole child because the school can't build the whole child as we said right at the top of this conversation they don't have the capacity so the needs the emotions all the experiences they're having it's it's like in their bodies and they need somewhere to put it and if they get home and the first thing is okay where's your homework what's this let's read together let's just make let's just continue what you've had the whole day I'm kind of not I'm not I'm doing you a disservice I'm not really building this holistic beautiful child I'm building an academic and for some parents they want to build an academic that that that's what you want but for me I read I have to play it by year my children are a lot younger there might come a time when my child says to me mom I really would love to spend more time speaking to you yeah than just sitting down reading and I'm gonna say of course what do you want to speak about should we go for hot chocolate let's go what do we want to do you said something before we started talking about every child needs to go to school what was that because I think it's a really important message right so every child has to go to school legally but school isn't for every child um and i know that might be quite a contentious thing to say because i know there are lots of people who believe that there is a right school for every child but the way we've already spoken about so much about how schools are structured these like rigid we used to we have buzzers like pips they like for some children they have sensory issues like even things like that it doesn't really work but you have to go to school and so i think that as a parent when you're looking around schools you really need to think about okay i might have to you know move things around maybe do as you said like what are my options when i'm looking for how my child will be educated because that's what we want we don't necessarily want our child to be children to be schooled we want them to be educated and those are different things there are different things um schools education doesn't just happen in a building it can happen what are you educating me here we are we are sharing education you know and so i think that as parents when we're looking at when we're looking at schools we need to move away from this idea that schools are perfect and no authority wasn't really you know you don't really challenge your authority you get told off in school you feel really bad you feel the shame and they're the teachers are right you're there's that kind of power imbalance i think as parents we should take back some power and say okay where is the best place for my child there might not be a best school for my child there might not be that might not exist so what am i going to do to make sure my child is still educated and empowered for the life that they are going to live right their life is different from everybody else's And this is such a key point, isn't it?

30:31Especially if you come from a background where it's all about your exam results and everything was so focused and driven. I mean, I can hear the voices of the parents now being like, oh, yeah, no, my child got nine A stars and one A. And you're looking at it going, oh, right. Well, my child, I, me, got like D's, C's, D's and E's and some that weren't graded because I was not an academic. I feel like I was failed by the system because I was dyslexic and because I was super creative, really good at English, really good at drama. But that wasn't what was supported in the 90s. That just wasn't a thing.

31:02It was like if you're good at math and you're good at science, you're going to go far in life. But actually, I was on luckily I found presenting because that's how I channeled all of that creativity that I had. But I know a lot of people don't find that. So what I don't want for my children, if they're not academics, how can we really support them? And how can it be on the same par as that? because the creative world doesn't or it didn't seem like it was as important right well I really want that for them I want them to be able to get to a place where they really decide what they love doing and I don't necessarily know if schools have the time or you know the inclination to to support that now I don't know you tell me because I haven't been in the school system for 30 years I don't think I think it obviously depends on the school there are some schools who lean more creative and like creatively um but it's still English maths and science English does have a bit more prestige you know we'll come up in the world a little bit but it's still a lot of children they still lean to parents especially English is important but science and maths is more important yeah why is that I don't know I think there is something I think there's I think there's a stigma of like maybe English being humanity like humanity social science is very like wishy-washy and not as like factual or hard or like you know that kind of thing some people love the facts don't they right some people like to have a right and a wrong and you know that's that's it you know my son's like it he likes maths because you get your question right or wrong he likes science because it's right or it's wrong whereas if you ask him to like think about you know read a text and what does he think that means he's like what you know tell me what the offer or the answer is definite that's interesting maybe there's a lot of parents who have got more that way of thinking if like wrong I don't know but I mean I don't come from that background but yeah I was going to say to your point around um what what exists for children who aren't like where school is a bit you know school is leaning towards kind of academic and they're more creative I actually think that content creation is a game changer actually I do think so I think that the creative children create TikToks they are on Instagram they do things to find themselves and I I'm sure if I had a TikTok when I was in school, I would have been doing sketches and skits and acting and performing and finding some and showcasing my art, you know, I do think there are various, I think the world has changed.

33:20And I think if schools were a bit more forward thinking, they think about how can we use this to teach our young people how to be empowered and to find their voice because everybody's voice is different, you know, and it's such a shame that the school system failed you, but the schooling system fell so many, so many creatives, so many children with additional needs you know and it's not as it's not as bad as it was before because we do have names but we don't have capacity so we have that we can say okay this is adhd this is autism we do have the labels but we don't have the capacity we don't necessarily have all of the knowledge as teachers we're not skilled in these needs and so the failing is still happening yeah and it's so damaging because i feel like i missed out on so much learning as in like i just feel like my learning stopped when I got to the age of 13 and I don't I sorry not not in the arts I understand yeah but but but there was so much more and then so what it's done I think in my adult life has made me feel loads of imposter syndrome like we have a really great successful business now but a lot of the time I will always start with the default setting of oh you know well I shouldn't really be here you call me out on it the whole time like how am I to run a business to know about business when I don't feel like I have had that grounding background um but yeah I do and I do it really well but it's given me that lack of confidence around it that's really sad it is so sad and I think that's that's why school is so important and I don't know I get why parents are so anxious about it because we carry it with us we carry whatever we're given we carry that thing and and so it means that you so beautifully said at the very beginning you said actually transparently yeah I did well in tests but it's because I had a good memory yeah there's so many There's so many people who actually, they just think they're just the smartest person because they did well in tests.

35:01They don't say it's because of the memories because I'm brilliant and I'm bright and they carry that confidence. Then you've got other children who were put in bottom sets who were told you are not going to be you're not going to pass this exam. They carry that with them. And how do we get rid of that? I think it's so heavy, but we have to somehow find a way to say, actually, that's what the school thought of me. But I'm so far I'm not that person. I can't be defined by their perception of me. We have to get to that place. Otherwise, we don't we don't never get free. you don't ever get free from it do you know what what do you think the options are if you've got a child that you don't necessarily fit because we're talking about choice of school here but a lot of people there is no choice right because they they're not going to do a grammar test because they don't feel like their child would sit that and with all the catchment stuff you have to just go to your local school that's the reality right that's so true but like probably the majority of people and so what do you do if the school that you get given doesn't feel right for your child like how can you make the best of it do you accept it do you I don't know what happens in that situation fantastic question um I'm going to I'm not I'm not in that position yet so I'm going to speak personally what I would what I would do as a teacher parent first of all if I didn't get the school that I'd wanted but I would only I'd put them in the order that I wanted them I know that some parents they only put the school that they want and they leave the rest blank yes let's not do that let's not really right because you might not get that school and your child does need to go to school they do need to go to legally they do need to go to school I think put those schools in the order that you want them and make sure that when you're going around to schools you're seeing the benefit and the value in all of the schools that what okay if my child had to go here what would I do having a plan for each of the each eventuality I think is really key and then I would go in once I've got the school that I've gotten I would ask to see the school again and I would take my reservations to the school I would say okay this is what I didn't like I wasn't sure about this I wasn't sure about this I was what can be done what can be and I would just start to petition the school I'd be like your mom I'm going up there I'm going up I'm going to speak to them really candidly like I think that actually these are the these are the these are the issues that I have with the school what what can be done about it yeah and then I would keep looking out if if I felt the school was really bad I would have to say okay what what else can I do I'd have to consider things like homeschooling private schooling changing mid you know you can change in the year as well it's not sometimes we treat it like a death sentence like if you don't get it first time you're never going to that school yeah there are always opportunities to go to the school that you want to go to especially because in september we always have it people just don't turn up yeah because just children just don't turn up they just don't turn up on the day yeah they go they get their first choice because you you've assumed that they want they get their first choice and they go somewhere else and you join the waiting list so there's other there's opportunities all the things that you've spoken about different options but also like you just make the cook make the school accountable make the school make the school accountable and keep them accountable i think it's so important to be a pushy parent i do think i don't ever know what to do in this situation because i think this is the first year i've ever emailed the teacher like i never would like i've probably not really had that many issues to be honest no it's more like i've forgotten to order the lunch today please can you give kit a lunch because i haven't sent a pack lunch i'm at work okay love you bye yeah exactly but this year was the first year that I actually emailed the teacher with a concern and the thing was annoying because I'd actually emailed with a really nice message at the beginning of the year because my son was so happy with his teacher he still is he really likes him and I thought you know what everyone always moans I'm gonna send a nice email so I sent a nice email and I was like just wanted to say like thank you because he he's really settled in well this is lovely like you know he's so happy and then about three weeks later it wasn't great and not with the teacher but there was a few kids in his class like throwing chairs um like like wild behavior and he was like I can't concentrate and so I thought you know what I think this is the time that you email and I did but I didn't feel comfortable to push back and be like this isn't right this isn't fair this is what my question was going to be because I think that's really interesting point George that you did it but it took you well maybe you haven't felt the need or there wasn't certainly been times when I've done someone else do it but how much I mean because there's that whole well okay controversial statement here who's snowflake generation we hear that we hear that phrase being thrown around quite a lot that our kids are wrapped up in cotton wool right that they they're not allowed to to play rough they're not allowed to get muddy they don't go inside do pee when it's a bit rainy you know all this kind of stuff it's like who's doing that is it us as parents or is it is it the schools i definitely think it's us as parents right yeah definitely discuss i think i definitely think i think it's us and then we feed into the schools i've a lot a lot of i've been on on twitter x sorry x i've been on x recently and they're speaking about toilet passes i don't know how much you know about toilet passes so of course when i don't know when i was in school you were not allowed to go to the toilet like that was one of the rules that we had it was very much like you go to the toilet at the beginning of school break time lunch and after school yeah you can't you couldn't go during the lesson which i think is When I told my dad, when I told my dad, you can't just go to the toilet as a child.

40:07He was mortified. He couldn't believe it. But that's the reality. So we've started introducing toilet passes, which means that under certain circumstances, you can go. But it means that so many people have toilet passes, you know, because everybody needs to go. And obviously, lessons are quite boring. Let's be honest. Like, sometimes lessons aren't that exciting. So, of course, kids are like, oh, oh, dearie me. I do that during a boring meeting. And I just go and sit in there for ages. And I think kids are always kind of criticized for doing things that adults do, which is use an opportunity to escape from something they're not enjoying that much.

40:37That's what they're doing. Anyway, we have been a lot of people in the education system are very critical of toilet parties, of any like, you know, in examinations, people having extra time. They think it's just this kind of like the snowflake generation. We're failing our children. I think that as a practitioner, as an educator, I think that comes back to my point. is this a place that my child can thrive? If my child needs to go to the toilet, I would hope that you would let them go to the toilet. Of course, I think you should be prepared and go to before and after. In my previous school, I had to introduce something called a period pass.

41:09Yeah, I was going to say that. Yes. I had to introduce a period pass because I said, what are you telling me that I can be on my period as a girl, as a teenager, and a teacher will say to me, you cannot use the toilet. Oh no. There have been times as an adult, I've had to just run out of the room. I've said, everybody, I've got to go. Yeah. And no one says to me, where are you going, miss? Yeah, you go, got my period passed. You know, and I think even at the time, I thought it was revolutionary. I was like, yeah, that's really great. You know, the girls are feeling really empowered. But I think to myself, wow, like what kind of system are we in that the girls still have to brandish this past that alerts everybody to the fact that they're having a period.

41:40And I used it as a kind of, oh, it's a revolution. You know, we're not ashamed of our periods. There's nothing more than the period passed. That's what I did. But now that I've left the system, I'm like, wow, that's really... It's a joke that they have to do that. As a woman, imagine if you had to show a pass every time you needed to go to the toilet on your period. I'd literally write fuck you on the back of it. Oh, well, this is it. This is it. And you'd be right to do so. You'd be right to do so. You asked the question, but it's escaped my mind now. No, no, no. It's the pushy parent. It's the pushy parent.

42:07Yes, it's the pushy parent. How pushy is too pushy, I guess, is the question I'm asking. I think advocate for your child, especially if you're in the state system. You have to advocate for your child. You have to be the person who believes that your child deserves the best because you are so lucky to find a teacher who believes that. You are lucky to find a teacher who, you know, you always have one teacher, right? I had one who was just like, yeah, it's you. And they just choose you and they just advocate for you and they love you and they carry you. But like some children never get one. But you are your child's advocate.

42:34You are the person who's meant to do that. And so obviously within reason, but I find that as educators, we're more responsive. In the same way, you know, when you have a child who's a bit more, you know, hyperactive and they get all of the attention, the children with the parents who are most involved and intentional, their children get the best out of the system. They do. Oh, that's such an interesting point. Of course they do. because I'm calling you. I want a meeting with you. I want to see you. Of course my child's going to get the best. I mean, the teachers might not like the child in the end, but they're also afraid to dislike the child openly because they know, well, that's going to be another meeting.

43:07See, what about when my son's like, don't email the teacher because I want to be her boy. No, you need to keep emailing the school. You need to plant it in their school. Don't. Plant the seed. Do not make a fuss. If it's impacting his education, you have to be the person. You have to be the one that says, unless you've got, I don't know if parents have WhatsApp groups and sometimes you can come together and there can be someone else who would run. The WhatsApp groups? Kill me now. I like to get the information, but I just don't think it's necessary to know if someone's had an upset stomach in the night.

43:39That's not my child. That's what happens in the WhatsApp group. It's like, why are you putting it on there? I'm not in the WhatsApp group yet. I haven't got there yet. Some are really interesting. There's little bites between parents and all that. They sound great. I'd be there for that I'd be like Not on my books But no Mine are boring Mine are like Oh such and such Lost their jumper And then there's one parent I don't want to be judgy But Everything before By is bullshit Every year For six years Before a bank holiday Are the kids in on Bank holiday Monday Oh god Every year You know when you're like Take a breath Nothing has changed No They're not in on Bank holiday Monday Do you write that the teacher no of course I don't wait for someone else to and then slag them up for the podcast I love it it's great but now people just send a link to like the term dates you know like they just go back but I just think oh my god yeah they're quite interesting they can be quite interesting but hats off to anyone that's running those whatsapp groups I've got a theory that it should just be admin only that can write and that no one should be able to write back and then if you want to ask a question you have to go direct to the class rep yeah I think that's good class rep thing is probably a really good idea we don't have that oh Oh, the hat's off to the class reps.

44:53I mean, how the hell they do that? They take on that. It's like second teacher. And you've got a full-time job. Joy, listen, we've been chattering. And can you believe we've been nattering for like 50 minutes now? No, we haven't. We have got to say goodbye because we're getting the old look from producer Mark. I was going to ask you for your best piece of advice, but I feel like you said it when you said advocate for your children. Would that be your lasting message to the listeners? Advocate for your children. And just whatever is your best, that's enough. Just that would be it. I love that. You're such a superstar.

45:20I was going to say, we usually ask guests for like five favourite products to do with parenting. But I wonder if you could just give us like five resources or takeaways that you'd want parents to sort of think about when it comes to education. Where do I start? Where do I start? Five takeaways. I think we've covered them. I think definitely questioning the schooling environment when you go into when you go into the space to make sure it's the right space for your child. and trust, I would say, also trusting your instincts as well as a parent. The insecurities that you kind of collected in school, making sure you're making peace with those actively as you navigate the childhood, your children's childhood and the schooling system because that's having, that's taking its toll as well.

46:04Advocating for your child and if you're lucky enough having a village, you spoke about your father, I've spoken about my father, you spoke about your mother. I think if you have people around you, making sure you're leaning into those people as well because we're not meant to navigate the world, the school, the system, any systems alone. And if we can all rely on each other just a little bit, then I think we can get the best for our child, which is our ultimate aim. And is there a good online resource that you would go to, to get any information around educational schools or what to look for and Red Flux?

46:31You know, is there anything that you'd really kind of go to? Your checklist? Yeah, Joy's checklist, which is coming. There's my checklist. I should really say myself, actually. I think I'm probably, because I'm not in the system anymore, I am the most I'm honest about what I would be looking for so definitely my checklist following me I actually if I'm going to be honest I think I use tests which is a teacher website I go on test quite a lot quite often test test test.com but that's really for teachers and they have articles around education if parents are interested but there isn't one website that I go on to I think maybe because I'm so entrenched in the system I'm just intuitively navigating it and if I don't know something I'll just research and go from go through just truffle through google and just find what I'm looking for yeah I hope that's helpful so helpful thank you so much uh joy joy's been a joy I loved that chat because she really I mean she definitely restored a lot of my faith in education and like what it's important for and all of that kind of stuff and she very much spoke about you know the teachers really caring about pupils which I loved because I think that is a worry when you go and look at like these bigger schools like how on earth could these teachers care about you know your child when they've got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds coming through their classroom every day so that was lovely to hear and also just like the things to look out for like the red flags the green flags um yeah I'm actually going to go back and listen to this again before I go and look around schools but Joy also mentioned that she's published a checklist that you can buy from her which literally is like a detailed guide on you know what you should be asking what you should be looking for because how the hell are we supposed to know like I really have no clue unless someone is guiding you as to what we should be looking for um it's difficult um but i think we're going to do some more episodes on this sort of thing so if you've got any feedback or like any questions or any people that we should get on the podcast um we are so up for listening to all different opinions on this um as we try and navigate ourselves so yes thank you for listening as always we would love you to rate review and subscribe and if you've got any feedback drop us a dm on instagram and we'll be back on tuesday Thank you.