Matthew & Ryan on The Challenges Of Being First-Time Dads

0:02Ryan: Zoe and Georgia will be here in just a moment with Made by Mummers. Once you've finished this episode, dive in to some of the other parenting podcasts from the team behind the show you're about to hear.

0:11Matthew: Over on Secret Mum Club, Safina is not holding back from oversharing on the ups and downs of motherhood. And on You Don't Know You're Born, Danny Miller, Brooke Vincent and Wingman are putting their acting skills to the test as they tackle their latest parenting dilemma.

0:27Ryan: Just search for Secret Mum Club and You Don't Know You're Born on your podcast app and hit follow so new episodes land straight in your feed.

0:36Matthew: Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas the podcast. I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot. We really have. Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, we're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands. And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review.

1:09Matthew: You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mamas. But for now, George, should we get into it? Hey. Yay. How are you? What's going on? I'm really good. We're obviously recording this little intro before we go off and have our half term. So I, you know, we're doing it a couple of weeks in advance so that you guys can kind of have stuff to listen to and we can go and have a little break. And I'm just in like madness sort of preparing mode because we've obviously got our live podcast, which is happening tomorrow. So that's really exciting. So we're like sending over scripts and making sure that all our guests have reached and stuff.

1:46Matthew: But we're really excited to meet you guys on Thursday evening. And then obviously heading off for our little ski break, which is going to be mega. Which, by the way, Zoe has timed for herself really well because the kids and Dozza are driving out to France and Zoe is having a night out. A weekend in London. A weekend in London and then flying out to join them while they're all settled in. Now, hold on. This makes me sound like a shit mother. The reason I'm doing that is because I can't get the Sunday off work. I have to go and do my radio show on the Sunday. Call me. She says, look, I'm sending that email to heart.

2:33Matthew: Please, can I have this Sunday off? And then not pressing his end. I didn't even ask. Do you know what? I don't feel guilty about it one bit. I'm packing them up. I'm getting everything ready. I'm making sure they've got everything from bloody suntan lotion to lip salve to bloody hand warmers so he can spend 12 hours driving them. Yeah, exactly. It is the least he can do. How are you, my angel? Yeah, no, I'm good. I'm really good. I'm looking forward to having a week with Gigi on my own, which we are. She keeps going. We don't have to eat free meals. We can have pancakes for breakfast. We can do whatever we want because it's just girls.

3:10Matthew: um i am but i i do feel slightly guilty on axel now because he's having the realization that like james is working next week and he's going to like go-karting camp and he's like oh god oh okay it's fine but you know what i think it is important like to do these things and have one-to-one time um with your kids if you can i mean you don't have to take them on holiday on their own that's like the extreme a bit but um it does it feels quite fun that we're gonna do something just the two of us and it's definitely helping me get her out of bed in the morning because right now she does yeah she doesn't want to go to school she's over it you know but it's it's spurring her on to get through i just cannot wait and everyone listening to this podcast also cannot wait to see you in your dance mom ears no let's not let's stop that right now i said I'm fucking furious.

4:06Matthew: Oh, God. I've actually ordered every waterproof coat that there actually is on. Yeah, I think so. I think I've ordered every waterproof coat on the internet, trying to find one that looks okay, because they all look terrible. The leprechaun ones in range. I'll report back on that. I think I have ordered that one. I've ordered a Swiss Bessie. I've ordered every one from M &S and Uniqlo. And, yeah, I'll report back on the best one. No one cares about your raincoats, George. All we care about is dance mum pictures, all right? Don't let us down. Let's get into today's conversation. Such a beautiful chat with two of the nicest souls.

4:45Matthew: I met these two boys in Madrid on the press trip with Isla. And when I met them, I just thought, what a couple of gems. and it's been so lovely watching them on their parenting journey. Same-sex couple who have gone down the adoption route and it was a long time coming. They want to be parents for such a long time and it's finally happened for them. So I was desperate to get them into the studio and they came in, they were wonderful, weren't they? Oh, they were. They had the best energy, but also like they're so upbeat and positive and fun and all of those things and yet so raw and, you know, honest and open.

5:25Matthew: And I really felt like we got an insight into the other side of adoption. You know, we've chatted to people who have adopted in the past and, you know, learned about the process and, you know, how it all works. But I feel like we got the real raw story from the adoptees with them and how it feels and the emotional rollercoaster that you go on. And, yeah, I mean, I don't want to say I'll give it all away, that they were just unbelievable, like really great. You're going to absolutely love today's conversation. Georgia, who are we talking to? We are chatting to Matthew and Ryan. A really exciting day on the podcast today.

6:02Matthew: We are joined by much-loved content creators who have captured hearts by sharing love, laughter, and real life across social media. Through warmth and humour, they've helped normalise same-sex relationships and champion positive LGBTQ plus representation and a truly special new chapter for the boys because they have just become dads. Please welcome Matthew and Ryan. And the crowd goes wild. I'm just like, can we have a copy of that?

6:27Ryan: I think we'll use that for our bio. We'll add that to our bio. Yeah, that's really nice. Thanks. We've got it written down.

6:33Matthew: We'll share it with you. Thank you.

6:35Ryan: I feel like we need to do the awkward intro, but I'm Matthew and that's Ryan. I feel like people know, but then sometimes they're like,

6:40Matthew: what's your name? Where'd you come from? You are one, Matthew and Ryan. I'm especially being a duo.

6:46Ryan: Yeah, she's like, Matthew and Ryan. It's like, well, who's who? Yeah.

6:49Matthew: Well, congratulations, guys. Thank you. New dad. I mean, we always like to ask our guests, don't we, George? Yeah. About their mornings. How's it been?

6:57Ryan: Well, I haven't seen him this morning, so it's been quite good. Nanny and Grandad had a sleepover last night, which was girls. Yeah. It was actually girls. They've been, we're so lucky because my mum and dad are obsessed. They've wanted to be grandparents for like years. So I feel like now is their chance. So they just take every moment. And we do take every opportunity. So do we. Yeah, we have our little tokens, don't we? So we don't take the mic. But yeah, this is one of them.

7:23Matthew: So this morning you just got up.

7:25Ryan: Got up, had a shower. Got ready. Made a cup of tea. Walked past the nursery, didn't care. Yeah. Yeah, it was nice.

7:30Matthew: And how lovely for him as well to have such involved grandparents that they're there and you feel safe and relaxed. And he loves it too. Because there's always that weird thing, isn't there, when you kind of leave your kid with somebody. If you've got babysitting, you're like, oh my God, are they having a nice time? They generally are. but with the grandparents you know you can really trust it right so good i remember at the start

7:49Ryan: though it was a little bit when we used to leave him there for like a couple of hours we'd be like oh is he gonna be all right and like choking i'll just worry about that for some reason i'm like really ocd about like do they cut the food small enough whereas now i'm just like yeah he's gonna be fine because everyone's different aren't they so they parent differently so even though your mum would do things differently than what we would do but then you can't say anything

8:12Matthew: before we get into it just for those listening who don't know your story anything like that just give us a little insight um i mean they would do a great

8:21Ryan: intro okay go on and take it away babe oh god what i'm gonna miss something um so we started the adoption journey in january 2024 so like is that like two years ago now i feel like we always knew we were gonna start a family so we've been together for 10 years so we always knew we were gonna start a family but like obviously one of us can't get pregnant so it was kind of looking at the options we looked through surrogacy and that didn't feel right for us and then we had like an informal chat with like an adoption agency and you know when you just know and it felt right so then we went through the whole journey and that was like a year just to be approved and then you're waiting to be matched and every case is so different it depends on like you what you want you want an older kid a baby boy girl siblings so i think um we had obviously some misfortune where we didn't get matched with a child.

9:15Ryan: And that was hard. Because you think you're going to, that child's coming home, you visualise them in your life. And you get so fixated on these kids. And then it's last minute, it's like, oh no, it's got to do a family. No, it's all kind of online, isn't it? Like you just learn about them and then you like visualise because you see photos and like hear about their personality and you think, oh my God,

9:31Matthew: they're going to be with us.

9:32Ryan: But then it doesn't come through. They don't give you much.

9:35Matthew: So they say to you, potentially there's a child that you could be matched with and then you learn a little bit about them and then they tell you that,

9:42Ryan: a different family it sounds really harsh but like it's they always said to us you need to put the child's needs first and if they find someone else it's like even a tiny bit better even if it's

9:52Matthew: just on paper there go with them yeah were there parts of the journey that made it feel impossible

9:58Ryan: i think yeah i think when we got the few knockbacks i think i think maybe a week before we got match with lincoln actually i think i said to you i was like oh i think what happens if this doesn't happen what happens if we don't have a family or what happens if we just can't have a child what are we gonna do um it feels like forever because it felt like i was like social media gonna be a problem it's like what we do a problem or all these things just start spiraling and i think that's what happened i feel like we got in our heads because we share so much of the journey online i think we were like oh god social workers obviously see like we must go around the office because they're like there's these new people because not many people share that sort of thing And I think we were, when we were getting these no's, I did just think the whole time, God, they're seeing our videos.

10:45Ryan: Because one of the no's was like, oh, they look fun, but we've chosen a different family. That's what we got. It was so tough. What do you mean fun? They look fun. What's that mean? Give me more. We didn't get any more. So you left sat with that feeling.

10:59Matthew: So you sort of don't really know what they're looking for. No. You don't know what makes you a better match. No. That's tricky, isn't it?

11:07Ryan: It's really tough. Lisa didn't say they look shit

11:10Matthew: Yeah Or they look boring

11:11Ryan: I would go at them I would go yeah But I remember when we got the fun comment We were like oh And then five minutes later we were like fun What did they And then we got really into it That's how when you're dating And it's like oh you're nice Yeah You don't want to be nice I'm more than nice

11:28Matthew: How did you get through those days together as a couple Because that must have put a lot of pressure

11:33Ryan: I do think we did I generally feel like we cried a lot Yeah we did like and i think a lot of our friends and family like don't see that or think the bigger picture but actually it was so tough yeah and no one talks about it and you know the outgoing outcome is going to be worth it but like when you want to start family so badly and some someone's got the control and power to change your whole life and you know you're the perfect fit for this child and then they say no or yes it just comes down to a little bit of their opinion it's like you don't know me like at all you feel quite judged yeah you do yeah you do and I feel like that's normal when the whole thing but god you do feel judged because they do go you just have to unlock everything that you think oh I'm not gonna not that we had anything tied but you know you think oh I won't tell them about or go into this sort of period of my life but yeah it just unravels They get every little information out of you.

12:30Ryan: Yeah. They find it. Because I was in the care system myself and I wasn't really going to talk about it. But they went and got my records and they brought that to the table. And I was open. I was in care. And then we kind of skimmed over it. And then next week we had another meeting and it was all laid out. I was like, oh, you've done your research. They come with like, they'll find out everything.

12:53Matthew: Do you think being in the care system yourself, it swayed your decision against surrogacy?

12:58Ryan: and to adopt i don't know i feel like what's made my decision to so because you're not he's gonna i'm always like he says this all the time it works for some people i think so exceed for us felt like a scam yeah in the uk i felt like we went into these meetings and like there was no success rates would reach out to these agencies and like oh what's your success rate like and they just wouldn't have numbers but then you know they want a fee for you to join the website and you'd go into these meetings and you see all these poor souls wanting to start family and like a woman to come in because you just assume if a woman came in she may be a carrier um and we would all like be like sharks trying to find a seal like you would all pounce i was there like would you like a cup of tea i'd never offer anyone a cup of tea only because i thought you could carry my baby yeah yeah it was really tough i feel like because your leds like there's no like with adoption you have like timelines that they have to stick to like it's all it's all like regulated whereas the surrogacy we just felt like it was a massive pond and we were just like floating and there was no people were going every saturday for five years trying to find a surrogate and for us i was just like it just seemed never-ending but then we've seen like we've got friends that have done it and they've had amazing success but it's been through like friends that have carried for them or we've always said we didn't want to know the person because we would just ruin their life yeah we control everything we'd be like yeah you'd just be worried wouldn't you if they were carrying a

14:26Matthew: baby i think yeah in the uk i was gonna say there's no sort of you can't profit from it can you so it's not it's not like in america or other places where you can pay and it's like it's a transaction but then there's i guess parameters that you could you know where you stand within that contract almost but in the uk you can only pay for expenses exactly and stuff like that and can you not also carry a baby to full term and then if the mother decides at that boyfriend

14:54Ryan: that's the thing that's switched because they that mother could be in a relationship for a week and that boyfriend would have more bites than you would yeah and I think that's when we were like oh actually this unknown not knowing is I can't handle that no of course not because you feel

15:11Matthew: you feel really out of control yeah and so what part of the you know you've obviously you know said that you had to wait quite a long time for him what part of it was the moment that you thought this is was it that phone call that one day where you like we've got we've got a match for you talk

15:26Ryan: us through that oh my god it was so weird so we basically were a part of this database it's like an official adoption database and it's like a way that they can show people children quicker rather than the social worker keep coming over and keep ringing and you kind of show interest and we found him and initially we they said they weren't too sure because of social media and I was like that's it I was like tears because we both said if we ever applied to show interest in a child we both had to have that feeling yeah um and both 100 % agree and we had that feeling for Lincoln so when we applied it felt like right and then we got the like the no so they said

16:05Matthew: because of your social media presence it was a no I think it was more we don't understand what

16:10Ryan: you're doing yeah because you know like our older videos are so like high end I think they just saw silly people from what they saw a 30 second video 30 second clip and they just think that's your whole personality yeah and i think if you're not in this media space you it's really unknown isn't it because i do think people that aren't in social media it's hard to realize that some things are

16:31Matthew: different all they are online it's interesting though isn't it because there's so many other professions where you can present in a completely different way in your professional life to your totally imagine like an actress oh my god but because you play that character and extenders that you can't that that must be you at home yeah yeah perhaps later yeah

16:54Ryan: it was like that and then you were like well i'm gonna write back and you really pushed in you yeah and you're like we jumped on a call because you don't know us i think you were the one that got us linking in the end yeah and i think from that call they went they were so positive they were like his social workers were so good like they were amazing and it was like they needed us to almost have that fight yeah as soon as we're on the call it was like they had already decided that we were going it was really odd in a nice way like we weren't

17:22Matthew: ready to fight it's the social are the social workers the ones that decide yeah yeah god i had

17:29Ryan: no idea about that it'll be his social worker um who would have that same like art because they obviously know him the longest and they'll have that same like I think they would make the right family or the best family so yeah and so then when you got the yes you knew that Lincoln was

17:47Matthew: coming home with you like how long is that period and also what do you do in that time you know it

17:53Ryan: definitely changes we dropped everything so we dropped like work um and I think it fluctuates if someone has like annual leave holiday sickness but we were really quick i feel yeah it was quite quick wasn't it really it was like in the space of a good chunk of months because you have like transition periods where you go up like meet him then you have to come home and leave him and um yeah it just takes a little bit of time doesn't it yeah so you meet him for the first time and that was like really special i think if you're adopting an older kid i think that meeting is a like i feel like it would take months wouldn't it sometimes yeah because if you're like a five-year-old you need to probably meet him a few more times because he was so young he didn't have a clue who we were um or what we would become so i feel like that first meeting was more for us than him obviously we started crying and didn't want to come near us then we might need to meet him again but he was just instant love yeah it really was it was so cute how emotional was that for you though it would have been more emotional the foster carers were there who look after him so you kind of felt a little bit awkward and they're so nice yeah like we've got the best relationship with them but at first you're like oh my god we're in someone else's house and we're like it's a baby it's our son but like it's a weird feeling because you're not pregnant so you can't really get ready and i feel like you're so i feel like with your especially like cries all the time cries all the time i'm very in tune with my emotions yeah Oh my God, you're me and you're Georgia.

19:23Ryan: Yeah, I never cry. I'm really rare at crying. He does this awkward like laugh cry. I'm like, are you in pain? I feel like it must be like child trauma or something. But I do. I feel like we were just like, yeah, we were just buzzing, weren't we really? But we were also numb after because your like adrenaline is so high.

19:42Matthew: Yeah, so when you come away, how is that? How's the drive home?

19:46Ryan: That's quite hard because you want to take him to the way and you know you've got weeks before you've even like seen him again it's like well he might learn like we were desperate for him not to have teeth weren't we yeah um and i think that was a big thing we're like well he could he could have a tooth before we next see him you wanted to experience it now i like don't want teething i'm like stay away from me with the devil teeth but i like i was like i don't want him to walk if he starts even pulling himself up pushing back down like we were just like don't let us everything but we were lucky we did actually get yeah most of the first didn't we yeah but you just want to i think because foster care would send f like daily updates you've been lucky because they don't have to do that she like played our youtube videos and yeah it was really we've got like photos of him like watching our youtube videos and it's so cute we were really into like disney and pokemon so she would start showing things that we like to him so they don't have to do that but she did a lot yeah what surprised you most in the first few days after you became dads um god it's real i thought that's really controversial but like i feel like he was really easy wasn't he he was really easy but i think thanks for saying that by the way sometimes it can be really rubbish yeah i mean it was he was perfect and he is perfect i think for us when he came home i felt really sad i yeah we were really like i don't know what it was i like felt like this is everything i've ever wanted to be a dad and i've got my son home but then I felt really sad I lost my old life and then and it was a really weird shift and that was really tough because I was like I've just have I ruined my life this is such a beautiful point

21:23Matthew: that we say you start grieving that was a degree you have to leave behind and elements of it come back but that initial thrust oh my god I get it totally and it's hard isn't it when you say it's something you've always wanted and you put yourself in that situation yeah and you fought for it yeah and then you get it and then you're like oh god this is a lot yeah i didn't realize

21:48Ryan: and i feel like everyone else around you is so buzzing so like no one yeah yeah people are just like on the high that there's a kid in the family or like their friend's got a baby and you're kind of like and you are faking it aren't you are faking being his dad because like at first like i need that bond i don't have that like i obviously care for him but the bond needs to grow so you are faking it and they don't give a lot back at first do they like you're kind of playing with these toys and stuff and you're i don't know i remember getting into like half past 10 in the morning and then i'd be thinking what are we gonna do all day and my social work came around and she was like oh how are you finding it and we were like we completely lied didn't we we were like yeah it's great but i think she should she should have she knew we obviously weren't yeah you could tell straight away that we were like our heads going like crazy i think this is more normal it definitely

22:39Matthew: i had it i know that yeah i think this is so much more normal but nobody no one talks about it so can we normalize saying that actually it's really quite rubbish in the first part it was really bad

22:49Ryan: really really bad now it's like gone now i don't know what i like i don't know what we did to snap out of it because it's time yeah but i do think like you said oh you know you need to wait for

22:59Matthew: the bond to grow it's true it is that is the case like i used to say like it was you know you'd wake up in the night and it'd be like a stranger's in your bedroom like i remember when you said that i don't know this person why are they waking me up i didn't sign up for this also i've got a stranger living in my house yeah it's a little bit like that isn't it it's like it's just you know when you wake up on holiday in a different destination and you wake up and you're like where am i and it's the second before your brain kicks into where you actually are it's the same when you've got a baby at home and you're like oh oh god yeah i've got a baby at home okay yeah my mind has not been there for a minute yeah it's like that isn't it yeah because i feel like even

23:40Ryan: when we wake up we just have to like snap out of it and be like okay this is our new life yeah we need to feed him like we have to look after him yeah but that was i think that was the big like moment for us it was really shocked did you feel the same way Matthew or was there something else that came in for you I feel like it was more like just the I don't know it's not a panic but I feel like because you are so up and down I feel like in the whole go go right up until then as well isn't it yeah and it's so high intense because I feel like when you're I can only imagine like when you're giving birth and stuff it's you've got that like nine months but because the adoption was I guess it was a quick turnaround wasn't it and you're kind of getting everything together so quick and you're like oh my god this is such happening and you're doing all the fun stuff like the nursery and you're doing it all so it's really fun all aesthetic and cute and then when they actually arrive I feel like you're just going to like a shell shock moment you're like what now like what do I do

24:34Matthew: well it's adrenaline probably and then it's the crash isn't it yeah there isn't really that much difference between when you when you do it you know out there and you would just catch yourself

24:44Ryan: wouldn't you I'd be able to make a tea and then we'd look at a chef and burst into tea and like he was a nightmare he was sleeping fine but then you just look at yourself and you would just cry and then you'd instantly feel really bad for crying and like your emotions just everywhere

24:59Matthew: how did you guys support each other during that period i feel like we just had a lot of um we

25:03Ryan: were lucky that he slept in the day like he was the foster care had him like a really good routine so we would nap from like half 12 until like three wouldn't he we threw ourselves into work yeah we just like got straight back into it we didn't really like take chill as such yeah we just pretended that was our normal life in that time and really like used that time like grabbed onto that time as soon as he went down we were like thank goodness and i think it's only when we started our podcast daddies overnight when we actually had the conversations before i feel like we used to be put under the carpet a little bit yeah and i remember on the first episode like you cried which is so rare very rare i mean because you were talking about it it opens up every piece

25:42Matthew: of emotion yeah but i think there's something very wrong if we cannot say in this world when you become parents that yes you love them and yes this is something that you've always wanted and it's the best thing in the world but also it's okay to feel like you've lost a piece of yourself

25:57Ryan: and a piece of your life yeah why do we not want to say that because every time you say something

26:02Matthew: like that you then have to caveat going but i love my kids so much yeah of course you love your kids so much but actually parts of it you know it's such a big shift it's such a big change we had

26:12Ryan: to japan with him first holiday and we we went to a theme park but obviously couldn't go on the roller coasters and we were like oh where is someone just like look after him like 10 minutes

26:27Ryan: i'm gonna get like my feet i'm not doing one loop on this like theme park but there's no one else to look after him so you do have to make sacrifices and that was the time you're like oh and you don't we did i felt bad straight after i was like i wish i just had like a moment yeah Surely you've got to give that a point.

26:42Matthew: Lincoln goes to Matthew and you jump on.

26:46Ryan: Who wants to ride a rollercoaster with a stranger?

26:48Matthew: Make new best friends, Ryan, in a second, don't you? Who wants to come on with me?

26:52Ryan: You never know. It could be your... I don't know. I don't know. In Japan, I think they would be really like, sit in silence. Yeah. And I'd be like, oh, let's hold hands. Yeah, you really would. Wee! I don't know if I got the response I wanted.

27:07Matthew: But it is. It's all of those little things that you realise when your life's changed you know like whether it's a theme park or like going to the cinema or like all of these small things yeah on paper or just talking anecdotally they don't sound like a big deal but they're those little realizations that your life has changed we'll be right back after this short break welcome back to this episode of made by mamas now where were we did you see my instagram video at the weekend where i was talking about parenting on a Saturday and I was like in our single days we'd wake up at 10 get the papers we'd have sex with our boyfriend we'd then go back to sleep then we'd go out shopping then we'd get on the piss then we'd go out and I said at the weekend by 9.30 I've already done three breakfasts for three different children I've dropped at three different clubs I've got covered in mud I've picked up the dog's poo and I was like it's a bit rubbish yeah it can be it can be

27:59Ryan: do you feel like that sometimes on the weekend you're like this is so crap

28:02Matthew: every weekend because I hate routine we struggle with routine

28:05Ryan: like we love routine like in terms of like work and stuff but live routine I don't like talk to us about that

28:12Matthew: do you like the spontaneity yeah but obviously

28:15Ryan: it's got to be fed need to wake up and have this like nappy change and then sometimes we're like should we not and we are good like if we're out we're like screwing that but then sometimes you think does he have to nap but then you think I don't want to deal with it later if like it causes something else in Japan everyone out the window and like I think it taught us actually routine you hear a lot don't you routine's your best friend I don't disagree i think it's just a good friend not a best friend yeah i don't want that friend

28:39Matthew: did you follow any books have you followed any books you know like hey i was about to go you know but you know like you followed who's that one you followed gina ford oh my god not for long but for a few weeks and it was like no shade i know that a lot of people like really love the routine and i thought i would but it was down to like 8 30 drink a glass of water so that's like but i thought that to be fair i am a routine person when it came well not anymore but when it came to young kids i was yeah because i knew i wanted to like have those windows that i knew were coming like when they're asleep that's well and that was my main name it was nothing to do yeah yeah yeah it was nothing to do with like no maybe what's best for them if i'm honest it wasn't It was like, I just needed in my mind, like eight o 'clock, they go down for a nap and I can get ready.

29:37Matthew: Twelve o 'clock, they go down for a nap and I can have lunch and relax. I needed that to get me through.

29:43Ryan: Did you have a breakdown when those days didn't happen? Or the nap slowly went small and smaller. We're all scared that that's going to happen soon.

29:50Matthew: My son napped until he went to school. Georgia forced, he was like, I don't want to sleep. And Georgia was like, you will. Honestly, I used to, we're like, oh God, I think about it sometimes. And I'm like, he was definitely didn't want to go to sleep. I would get him upstairs to bed and be like, right, come on, let's lay down and go to sleep. And he would do it. But yeah, until he went to school. Georgia's got a daughter, Gigi, who tipped up to a meeting once that we were having. And she must've been three and a half, something like that. And she came in, she went, hi, Zoe. And I went, oh, hi, Gigi.

30:24Matthew: She went, I just go to sleep now. and she just tucks herself up on the chair and she just the whole meeting she would sleep for two hours that's what we thought

30:33Ryan: Lincoln was going to do in Japan we were like he'll sleep in the prom he'll sleep around sushi and he was like Bing where we going daddy and I was like let me just put your like prom shutter down we just slowly put the shutter you just see these tiny little creepy fingers go and I would hear a burst or hear someone cough and I'm like yeah baby we were like that one we were like yeah he didn't sleep yeah we'd go down like a quiet street just

31:01Matthew: like rock him didn't get anywhere did we too much stimulation so excited what was the flight like

31:07Ryan: with the human angel we were so scared i feel like we were on the lead like when we got to the airport right he's never had an accident in public where he's like leeched through the nappy yeah he's always just he was a waterfall it was just like i was holding him at the airport with all these suitcases and i was like why am i wet and i'm like this has never happened why is happening now and you know you have minimal outfits for a flight yeah because you've got minimal space it's packed in the suitcase i was like we've already gone through one and we're not even in the air yeah it was really stressful but then on the flight i feel like he was also teething he was teething so he had like acid poo it was an acid it was a run the acid poo oh the bernie bum ones yeah it was like green he was fine on takeoff wasn't he and like all the things people said watch out for because it was a 15 hour flight so it's really long and that's the first time

31:54Matthew: that was our first wow legends call me crazy he said if we went to like greece and it was like

32:01Ryan: four and he was like no we would i'll be i'll just be like doing uk stays yeah now we're just like we'll go to australia you cry it's fine in public i've got this like and and what because

32:14Matthew: you often think don't you that when you get on a plane you think oh my god please please don't be the child that screams and cries because you want everybody to be okay with it and obviously some people aren't but actually in reality if you want to go see the world kids are going to cry on planes

32:25Ryan: and everyone needs to just be kind i said to matthew we had the whole discussion didn't we on like daddy's overnight and we were like oh if he cried like matthew's like a labrador and i'm a trower i was like should we take you have you seen that tip talk where people tell haribo on the plane they give them to everyone around them i was like should we do something nice for the people Ferrero Rocher's for everyone yeah Ferrero Rocher and I'm like are you joking me he was like anti I thought we're gonna make no friends I was like if someone you've given a Ferrero Rocher to someone and then I hear a sigh for Lincoln like crying what I'm they've eaten my Ferrero Rocher what am I doing they've just got that for free he'll be fuming he'll be fuming I'll be fuming but um no one was no one like annoyed us we didn't have to have a go at anyone well done because I was like you know I would have gone at someone if they were like oh crying baby

33:13Matthew: before you had it were you like that

33:17Ryan: no no I feel like put your headphones in yeah we've always put headphones in maybe I was a bit like I've never sat next to a crying baby yeah that's different whereas now if I sat next to a crying baby I'd be so it's weird when you become a parent you're like do you want me to take I will do anything for anyone we were all at the back of the other parents and they would just play and obviously their air hostess was like oh can you sit back in your seat and no one's obviously listening and then yeah we were like we need this we were just like yeah yeah we're just getting a drink 10 minutes later oh we're just back for a snack we didn't leave you couldn't could you no but I was like everyone's in it together because you were sort of

33:52Matthew: in the galley just hanging out we were just there the whole time yeah and I think

33:55Ryan: because those other kids definitely helped but he was an angel he was so good didn't sleep they didn't sleep

34:02Matthew: they don't really sleep on flights

34:04Ryan: no that's a myth

34:05Matthew: and is this sort of started the adventure for you guys in terms of travel

34:09Ryan: I was looking at like holidays on the way here and I was like oh let's do Switzerland It's only an hour and a half flight. So like we could have one eye open. It's fine. I think we want to come back to Japan though, don't we? Yeah.

34:19Matthew: What's the fascination with Japan? Yeah.

34:21Ryan: Honestly. Have you ever been? No, I saw my list. Oh my God. You both. You won't come back. It's so good. Like even without holiday goggles, they love kids. Yeah. They're so good. You'll have teenage boys on a train and they'll be doing like peekaboo with kids. You just don't get that. It's just not, you just feel really safe there. you don't have to like watch yourself too much. The parks are good. There's like toilets everywhere. People are really polite so no one's like pushing you. And there's just so much to see and do. How long did you go for? Two weeks.

34:53Matthew: Were you in Tokyo the whole time or did you travel around? We traveled, didn't we?

34:56Ryan: We ended up getting a car and just doing a little road trip. What's that for you guys?

35:00Matthew: And what was your day-to-day like now? Now Lincoln's almost a little bit older. What's happening?

35:05Ryan: So he gets up between half eight and nine. Yeah. Which some people hate us for. I made that

35:10Matthew: yeah

35:11Ryan: yeah that's a burn half what sorry I was just reading the questions what half eight to we put him down at seven right it's time for them sorry hang on sorry sorry

35:19Matthew: you put him down at seven and he gets up between half eight and nine okay we're gonna cut this now he also sleeps through the night

35:26Ryan: and when he does when he does wake up at the end because he's lost his stomach he's so this is what we mean but it wasn't us it was the foster carer wasn't it no but I feel like you give credit to the foster carer and I do give credit to the foster carer but we kept it we did continue going because every kid is different like there's times where he's crying we've gone in and we could have got him out and changed the whole routine but we just kept going in like four times like it's sleep time it's sleep time yeah yeah well it's like some people would got him out ruined the whole routine even in japan i was like he's not coming into our bed regardless yeah we're so hot on that aren't we still will be sharing the same room with him and he could see us in his and I was like you're not getting this bad

36:07Matthew: yeah because I think it's important to have your own boundaries 100 % because you know some people will co-sleep it's never been I mean I like it now I'm so passionate against it have you ever have you done it we weren't co-sleepers no we were in their own room like you know all of that kind of stuff but now it's weird now now they get old like my son's nine I'm like oh daddy's away do you want to come and he's like yeah absolutely not absolutely not oh god And I have to say to my kids, because I've spent five, six, seven years saying to them, do not wake me up. And now they don't and they get themselves ready and they go downstairs.

36:43Matthew: And I had to say to my boy, I said, oh, you never come. And he goes, I don't want to wake you up. That's what you said. And I'm like, that's exactly what I said.

36:49Ryan: Oh my God, that's so tough, isn't it? Because it's like the best thing at the time. And now it's like a double edged sword where you're like, oh. I'm so anti him being like. Is that because you guys want to keep that between you two for your space?

37:01Matthew: Maybe. I just, I can't. Tell me why you don't want to do this.

37:03Ryan: without sleep i think it's because you can't function without sleep but then also why would you do it to yourself yeah because if you're sleeping why am i changing oh no no no if it's working but if it didn't i know some couples they have like two kids and they sleep in separate that's crazy so they never like sleep together and i don't know maybe it's because my family didn't do that so i just think i didn't even know it was the thing i think it really works for some

37:27Matthew: families and i love when i hear it and it's working and actually you know it's so they're so little they're little for such a short amount of time people have said you know it's like what two three years of your life and that bond it does create but but then there's arguments against it that you actually do you need to be wrapped around your child all night long and have them 24 7 i think it's personality as well isn't it because i know i need my own space like i know i get completely touched out i know that i can't you know be around sexy sundays with james i just poke poke poke I just can't I just can't I just can't I just can't I just can't I just can't I just can't I just can't if I then had to share a bed with a child no just not

38:06Ryan: especially when you need the afternoon naps you're like

38:08Matthew: please have them

38:09Ryan: imagine if they're like can I nap with you

38:11Matthew: it would be a lot I think there's just

38:13Ryan: no right wrong way is there like it's what works for you who knows in a year's time if it changes yeah we'll come back next year and be like he's not changing we've had a giant

38:23Matthew: mattress put in our bedroom

38:25Ryan: yeah the king king king one we'll be right back after this short break

38:33Matthew: welcome back to this episode of made by mamas now where were we how has adopting lincoln impacted your relationship as a couple let's forget about you two as dads what's happened

38:44Ryan: to you guys as a couple i feel like i suppose it happens with everyone we do have a bit less we all say because of like work and travel and stuff that it's fun but then when we really think about it we do have a lot less couple time we do but then i think when we have it we make it really count yeah we do like again a bfo blessed to have like your mum and dad help have lincoln and he starts like yes i think when they have him we use that time to work but occasionally we'll use the that count also because he goes about 7 p.m it's not that deep like you've got a whole evening yeah so you could still have like wine cheese romance when do we have you have wine i'm like where's the cheese well i well mainly the wine wine yeah never cheese i wouldn't mind the cheese but yeah so i feel like it's not as bad as i thought it was gonna be

39:41Matthew: is Ryan and are you you're looking at each other now

39:47Ryan: right babe it's not that no it could be no yeah it could be getting divorced yeah so you know and if we didn't sleep so if we didn't go down at seven I think we'd be so different yeah

39:57Matthew: we sometimes leave like uh googling like divorce lawyers on our laptops just to keep our husbands on their toes just keep them on the toes yeah or printouts noted legal separation printout

40:08Ryan: yeah not feeling laughed oh um Oh, not that tab, sorry, long tab. Oh, what's that just popped up?

40:17Matthew: You talked earlier about Lincoln maybe starting nursery. How do you feel about that? I don't want him to.

40:24Ryan: You don't want him to. You do, but. I do. I think it's like, it'll be good for him, good for us, because I think we'll use those days, our work days, and then we'll have like more time with him, and not necessarily focus about the nap, like, oh, we just get back for the nap um so i think we could do more fun things with him i feel like my only worry is you know when you're like oh i've got these two i've got this free time you'll fill it with more stuff and you'll still be doing what you did before right on your other day i'm just i know we'll that'll happen to us and then we'll snap out of it and i'm just thinking oh do you

40:57Matthew: think it will be hard to leave him on that first day it's gonna be horrendous i think it's just

41:01Ryan: because he's so he's like a little dumpling you just want to like i don't know it's also just so I've not been biased because he's our son but he's just like got this light that he radiates yeah he really does doesn't he and I just think we go to a lot of like playgroups and stuff and I always look at him like oh you're just like the best yeah I'm sure every parent thinks it but I really I'm just like you're the best kid in this whole room I'm not even gonna lie I was like you've got like no other kid can touch you so I put him on this like pedestal you're always gonna be your kid's best cheerleader do you feel like you both do the same yeah of course So I'm like, I don't want anyone to like damper you or take your shine away.

41:40Ryan: Because I think when you start interacting with more kids, you can't protect them. Yeah, this is what we say.

41:45Matthew: You can do everything that you do at home and have all of these boundaries and rules. But essentially, you have to let them into the world. That's scary, isn't it? And then you don't get all of like, you don't get to not control, but you're not the biggest influence. So they bring like an asshole friend home. Oh my God.

42:00Ryan: Do your kids have friends that you think, please don't be their friend?

42:03Matthew: Yeah, but you arrange the play dates. Yeah, I was going to say, you'll instantly do that. Like nursery, day one. You'll look around and you'll be like, I don't want you to be friends with me. I don't want you to be friends with me. I don't want you to. I swear everyone does that. Lincoln, come here.

42:18Ryan: Don't talk to me. We're on the cusp of the next level of parenting and just seeing it, I'm like, oh my God, we've got too much to think about.

42:26Matthew: Oh my God, Kit came home with an A4 sheet of paper in the week, I haven't told you this. And on it, it said an address, right? a time and underneath a note saying Saturday the 28th of February don't forget you'll be at my sleepover just you and me a girl from his class wrote her address and told him to come for a sleepover okay you are not going but how old is it seven oh my god I was playing with sticks in the garden well yeah it's another type of stick isn't it like it's really weird what happens to you in those moments like i had it with my son he's probably the same age when it happened and there was a girl at school and he was talking about how they would kiss in the playground and i would honestly phone my mum like oh my god who is this girl what is she doing to him and then he'd be like no mum it's great and honestly the pain I felt internally like I felt sick I felt like I had you know like when you're heartbroken that is how I felt for days I couldn't eat yeah it's horrendous

43:36Ryan: do you find that the kids now are like older even though they're younger I was not quite quick at seven I swear they grow up quicker yeah they do yeah it's such a short period of time God we're so screwed

43:44Matthew: now you're going to be alright guys can we I was just going to talk about what you guys are doing for you know get the gay community and how you're really really talking about going through this adoption process and i want to sort of because we're coming to the end of the interview to talk about like the positive feedback that you've experienced online and did you go into it worrying about the negative and have you experienced any negative comments about

44:06Ryan: oh can we talk about that it's we start negative go positive yes yeah yeah yeah go on you take it way so i i can i just say negative comments i can fight them and i'll like reply to some of them and but then i'll go back an hour later and it's deleted i'm like adam and matthew here yeah we don't go back to people that are negative but sometimes i think people just need a good like what are they saying what are they saying i think some of them are just like i can't even remember what they always when people have gone for the i think we found it's people that have gone for adoption journey think they know what they're talking about in our adoption journey because they've been through an adoption journey i was like every adoption journey well take a shot every time you say adoption journey um it's different it's so different so they come in the comments and just speak for us quite a lot and it's sometimes it's not true is it yeah or they're very about to do this but i do that shouldn't do that shouldn't do this and then you automatically feel really bad or some people have just been like really mean like being the same sex is it is it about being the same sex couple i think sometimes when you do look into the comments a bit more i feel like there's a lot of them i don't care about the homophobic comments but i worry about other people that read them because it goes off the it's like what was it water off a duck's back i don't care about that like and you can't change everyone's opinion i feel like we're just trying to exist yeah but then i do worry the other people that see those comments that it really affects them and that's when i'm like god oh it's when they go like oh poor poor boy like they've got two dads or poor boy he was better off in care or things like that like really get to you because like back off and do one like just go away and i never used to i genuinely didn't use to like care about the comments because they i feel like we used to share things that were us but then there was still like a tiny wall between like private life i guess yeah we shared it but then because adoption it's so raw and like because that's becoming parents yeah i like have a new found respect for like parent creators because i just you put so much out there yeah and you're

46:13Matthew: basically just being judged and it's not about just about you anymore it's about you yeah it's

46:18Ryan: about someone else yeah exactly block them now yeah as soon as a negative comment comes in yeah quite always it's when i see the same person i think that's what it is and it's facebook is where a lot of it comes from where they just obviously don't work and they or they just go back and back and they'll go go go go go again it's like a full time job for them oh you're like so they just like all the hate comments happy people do not do it that's what I always

46:43Matthew: sort of think to myself that you the person who's doing that can't be a happy person no

46:47Ryan: you've got too much

46:48Matthew: like why are you doing that absolutely not

46:50Ryan: I would never leave hate on someone's no I would just mute them and block them if that's the case but it's different between like a bit of criticism and then there's a hate comment yeah but on the positive side yeah the positive has just been like insane it's been really and i think it's been good on all kind of different groups you've got like people looking at adoption but you've also got like other social workers and other foster carers getting a different perspective yeah i think like when we like talk about it on daddy's overnight like we'll have like a foster carer or a social worker message and like oh it's really nice to see that on that side because you don't ever find out about how the adoptee is feeling

47:31Matthew: sometimes that's so true yeah and have you thought about um how you talk to lincoln about you know

47:38Ryan: how he came to you guys yeah yeah i feel like we're just gonna be a proper open honest i mean i mean he obviously knows we didn't give birth to him yeah everyone some people are like oh god like people are going to know he's adopted and then we're like well we didn't give birth to him i feel like it shouldn't be something that should be like shy it shouldn't be hidden it's not like

47:58Matthew: the 60s it's like it's no shame in it it's a wonderful thing to do that you guys are like

48:03Ryan: we'll just always celebrate his life story and if he ever wants to know anything and we don't have the information we'll find it with him because i think our biggest fear if he does it behind our backs like social media is not going anywhere yeah so he'll have the resources to google stuff look at things yeah and i want to make sure we're there when he's ready just to be there so we i guess it's just like the fantasizing yeah i think that's when people maybe go down that's what our social worker once said wasn't it you just have to be there with them and really go through it

48:33Matthew: with them yeah yeah and i hate asking this question but i'm going to ask it would you ever go through

48:37Ryan: the adoption process again oh my gosh we for everyone at the moment all the comments like

48:42Matthew: when you have one you don't need to answer that by the way they oh no it wasn't that wasn't a face It's like, oh, I don't want to work.

48:48Ryan: As soon as you have one kid, I think the next question is like, they need a sibling. Yeah. And I think we always went to two kids, but I feel like now. I don't know if we're one and done. I feel like we're really happy right now. But then in a year's time, we might be like, should we do it? But then it's just really, it was like, as soon as we got him, we were like, yeah, if we can, we'll get another one really quick. But now like we've mentally stepped away from it. I'm like can we open that up again yeah

49:16Matthew: would it be the same process yeah pretty much

49:19Ryan: the whole thing again and also they go through how you are as a family not just a couple they assess you as like with Lincoln as a family what would he be like as a brother

49:29Matthew: George is an only child and she's a legend I love being an only child loves it and did you feel like

49:34Ryan: you missed out on anything absolutely no she gets everything

49:37Matthew: she's gonna get all the money when they die that's what you're going on she's gonna get everything

49:41Ryan: I get all of the childcare

49:43Matthew: like you know what I mean like it's really great as long as you've got

49:47Ryan: friends and like you're not like isolated it's fine

49:50Matthew: yeah I was gonna say it's not how it probably was like 50 60 years ago where children like didn't do club it's not like school was my only time where I socialised do you know what I mean like a Victorian child just playing with a household ghost just your little dolls yeah yeah yeah no it's not like that did you ever fantasise

50:10Ryan: about wanting brothers and sisters no okay that's what we really

50:13Matthew: no genuinely like no i didn't and i and my mom used to say like i'd mention it all the time like are you you're not gonna have another baby are you so georgia it's so georgia i love it honestly now i just think guys it's great it really is that's so refreshing because i don't

50:31Ryan: like people always oh they need a sibling that's all we're getting now is like i don't think i do but then there's that like am i wrong do you feel a bit of pressure like Guys you do what you want

50:42Matthew: You also feel like

50:43Ryan: It's your life as well Isn't it?

50:45Matthew: And also like Your lifestyle Like you know You want to go off to Japan With one child It's way easier That's what my mum and dad said Like I just tagged along With them really That's how we felt

50:55Ryan: It was in Japan It was like Oh we've got a little friend with us But also we love work And we love going out We love doing stuff I think one kid's more manageable Like you just said Was two Let's pick this up In a year guys Let's see Yeah We'll be like You've got three more Oh my god

51:09Matthew: for anybody listening uh that needs a bit of advice at the moment uh what sort of parenting advice would you like to impart on the year that you've or however long you've had with lincoln

51:18Ryan: that's so weird isn't it someone asking us the parent advice let me get my notes out um i think um you can sweat all the small stuff and read all the textbooks and like the podcast and all like go for so many people for different advice and every child is so different and you will find your own path I feel like we were really worried we were going to the adoption like class and everyone's got their like notes and I've listened to this podcast and we just hadn't done any of it and there's us with our bottles prime and just like cool your Pikachu jumpers yeah literally we were Pikachu dinosaur jumpers it was like we were waiting to be adopted wasn't it and now we're Matthew and Ryan are here for the adoption process it was honestly it was like that and I feel like I would probably pick up on what you just said in terms of, you know, not comparing anyone else's journey.

52:11Matthew: So true. And products. Like, what sort of stuff are you like? What have you been listing this year? What's Lincoln using? Yeah.

52:17Ryan: The cheapest of the cheap. Yeah, I'm not going to lie. Like, if it's on sale, I'm getting it. Yeah. I just have to because they wreck it, don't they? What nappies do we love, though? Like, it doesn't leak through. Oh, my God. They're in the red. Is it Pampas or is it Huggies? Is that bad that we don't know that?

52:31Matthew: No, I think that's Huggies. I pick it up. I think it's Huggies. Is it Huggies?

52:35Ryan: Really good. And anything, we're really into the vintage vibes. Rosie and Jim's a thing in our household. Rosie and Jim. Rosie and Jim.

52:45Matthew: Chugging along on the old girl. I didn't even know that. Oh my God. I didn't even know that.

52:48Ryan: I just do Rosie and Jim, Rosie, and then I start.

52:51Matthew: That's from our childhood. It's so good.

52:54Ryan: In the 90s. And then we're just looking for stuff like that on vintage, aren't we? Like old 90s stuff, but it's rare to find. We want him to be a child for as long as possible and still have that innocence, like play with toys and not grow up too quick. But Miss Rachel is, we could say we co-parent Miss Rachel. Yeah, she helps a lot. She's helped a lot. And those like, you know, you need like a half an hour to do something. You're like, here's your buddy.

53:17Matthew: Here's a piece of advice for you guys. Don't get into pepper.

53:20Ryan: We're not doing it. I'm not stand pepper. Yeah, we're not peppering. No, absolutely not. She's a brat. That's just like,

53:27Matthew: my husband says, he's like, if any, like, my daughter's six now, nearly seven, and any bratty behavior, he goes, that's because you I'm like it's probably true I also feel so sorry for Daddy Pig he got so badly bullied by everyone in the family didn't he they all hate Daddy Pig I hate Briggs it's a cartoon

53:45Ryan: and on that note it's not real oh shit it's not real it's triggering because I actually work at Peppa Pig World did you? I love that place

53:55Matthew: we did go to that place I liked it there

53:58Ryan: we'll probably go there won't we yeah it's really expensive isn't it I'm sure they'll send you a freebie guys had her gifted we love Peppa Pig you'll see our next pose blow I had the best time of Poland we love Peppa Pig

54:10Matthew: you'll take that back oink oink yeah guys we're gonna have to say goodbye what an amazing chat thank you so much for coming on Matthew and Ryan

54:19Ryan: everyone woo thank you did you love it

54:23Matthew: I did love it I really really loved it they were just just brilliant like just great and I loved how open they were And I think even if you haven't gone down the adoption route, so many of us can relate to not feeling on a huge high when we first become parents. And I can only guess that there would have been more eyes on them, even more so because of their route to being parents was a little bit different. So I think people would have expected them to be on cloud nine. And I love that they really said how it was. yeah and I also loved how real and honest Ryan I'm obviously Matthew but some of Ryan's comments I was like go on yeah he just he was just like I'm just gonna say it how it is I'm gonna say how I feel and I really respected that me too yeah the boys are great massive thank you to Matthew and Ryan for coming on and thank you guys for listening to today's podcast as always we'd love you to rate review subscribe and please give us a follow that means that you won't miss an episode yeah and if you've got any feedback on this episode or guests you'd like to hear from drop us a dm on instagram we are on at made by mamas and we'll be back on friday