Michelle Kennedy on the lonely mum epidemic

0:00Georgia Dayton: Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner. Obsessed. I'm spending it right now on the lip gloss that's been sitting in my cart. What do you mean spending it right now?

0:08Michelle Kennedy: You can instantly spend your balance with the Venmo debit card or when you pay with Venmo at checkout. Stop. Say more. More exactly. The more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5 % cash back with Venmo Stash. Get the Venmo debit card or checkout online. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. max$100 per month. See terms at venmo.me slash stashterms. Venmo checkout, not available at all merchants. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. It takes the hits, runs the miles, rebuilds while you sleep. It's felt every fall, every dance floor, every belly laugh.

0:48And in return, it asks for nothing. It just keeps going. I'm Ellie Taylor, and this is Back Your Body, the podcast from Holland and Barrett that's all about the most loyal relationship you'll ever have, the one you have with your body. From scars to self-care, the bits you love and the bits you've learned to love, we're talking to people about the bodies they live in, how they've pushed them, neglected them, rebuilt them, or finally learned to listen to them. It's time to back your body the way it's always back to you. Back your body. Subscribe now, your body will thank you.

1:22Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas, the podcast. I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot.

1:35Georgia Dayton: We really have. Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, we're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands. And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review. You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mummers. But for now, George, should we get into it? It's Tuesday. It is. And we're together. We are for the first time in two months, maybe. Something like that.

2:08Wild. Bonkers.

2:09Georgia Dayton: Completely wild. I know. It's so nice to be back in the studio, actually. I know. And nothing's changed. We're still moaning about husbands and kids. I did ring up Georgia this morning and was like it's just being such a dick and you were like mine too we're just still we're united on that yeah we are I think he thinks I'm a dick as well yeah I know same absolutely maybe we are all being dicks I do think that we are worse worst for the people that we live with yeah I mean we are at our absolute worst for those people so sorry to those people and also the timing of it with like the going back to school stuff There are quite, it's quite a lot of admin and stress going on.

2:48Georgia Dayton: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's okay. We're not dicks. We know we're not dicks. In our core. A bit of good news for the podcast. Yeah. We went to see the puppies yesterday. Oh my God. Yes. Oh my God. They're so beautiful. We're doing it. We're getting a dog. And these, there's two left in the litter, a boy and a girl. We've actually named the boy already. So we've got our heart set on you. Are we allowed to say it? Murphy. Murphy. Oh. Murphy. They're Labradoodles. They are absolutely beautiful. And there was just, she was such a nice lady, this lady Natalie. Rocked up to her home. The kids, we hadn't told the kids.

3:30So we'd said that we were going to the allotment to pick vegetables. And they were furious because the night before I was going, this is going to be the day of your lives. And then when we went, surprise, we're going to go to Nanny's allotment. The kid was like, this is the worst. I don't want to get in the car. And I was like, just get in the car. It's going to be great. And then obviously we tipped up to this lady's house and there were just these two left. And the mum, the dog mum, Rose, was just gorgeous. Yeah, it's really exciting. So I've got this week to get ready because I think Murphy's coming on Thursday.

3:57There's a slight issue with one of his eyes. So she's taking him to the vets just to see. I noticed something yesterday and I said, well, what's up with his eye? And she said, oh, that's the first time I've seen it. So she's going to call me today at six. So I'll keep you updated. But if we can't have the boy, we'll have the girl. And I was in tears going, let's take both of them. And I was like, shut up. But you can't have two doors.

4:16Georgia Dayton: Oh, I don't know. No, George, we cannot. Is that like having twins? Yes. Yeah. You wouldn't necessarily choose to do that. But we've got to dog-proof the house and make sure that the garden's sealed off at the side and get a gate because I don't want Murphy going upstairs. Oh, are you going to be really strict? Like downstairs, crate, all that stuff? Got to, yeah. All I'm watching now, it's gone from aggressive autumn-winter fashion videos to how to crate crane a dog. Well, that's good for your bank balance, I guess, Because last week you were like, oh my God, please stop me. Stop me. I'm going mad.

4:52I have bought that Lola Lux jacket. I saw that. I did it. I did it. Yeah, it is lovely. Are you okay?

4:57Georgia Dayton: Yeah, I'm good. I'm really good. Gigi had a little up last week. Oh, George. I know. No, the thing, I feel like really dramatic. And it's like, oh, operation. It was the tiniest thing. Like she had a little cyst in her mouth. It was removed. but the general anesthetic thing that is quite horrible yeah it is yeah but i mean she actually woke up you know because lots of people i think kids can react in different ways so when i'd said that she was having it a lot of people prepared me for her like lashing out when she woke up yeah those messages yeah and i thought oh god so i actually sent james down to do that and um she came back up like really nice like actually nicer than normal um much nicer than normal still a bit zingy and a bit zany yeah and she sat and ate like a full jack of potato and i was like wow is that what the general sex done because she doesn't do that in normal life where's my child yeah i'm glad it went well but that must have been it is i haven't been through it but yeah it was quite traumatic yeah watching your child be put to sleep i don't think it's something that you really realise how weird it is.

6:03Georgia Dayton: Yeah. And it wasn't very nice, but she's absolutely fine. It just meant that we had not a chilled weekend. We'll talk about it on the podcast, don't we? Yeah. And she was trying to get out of going to school this morning because she's still got a bit of a fat lip. Did you send her in? Yeah, she's gone in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Straight back to it, George. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, not much to report my end. Well, we want to get into today's chat because we've just finished recording it. We cannot wait for you guys to listen to it. What a brilliant, brilliant guest. Yeah. So this is the second time we've had this guest on.

6:35Georgia Dayton: And so much has happened in all of our lives in that time that, you know, six years ago. But actually the conversation was so important. It's something we would have touched on in the first, you know, the first time she came on. But actually the point of how our parenting journey just evolves and we have different challenges. and it all comes down to actually having a community and how important that is, whether it's a friend at the end of the phone or, you know, someone you meet up for a coffee with once a week. She's still, you know, very much showing how important that is. Yeah. And she's just written a brand new book, which she tells us all about.

7:15Georgia, who are we talking to today? We are chatting to Michelle Kennedy. Oh, I already cannot wait to have this conversation again. A returning guest on today's podcast. Yeah, we don't do that often. very exciting I'm so honoured founder of we're calling it we call it the dating app for mums to meet it's called Peanut author of her brand new book It Takes a Village Meet the Woman Who is Solving the Lonely Mum Epidemic it is Michelle Kellady yeah thank you so much what an intro oh my god your outfit

7:45Michelle Kennedy: thanks guys I love this is why I love women all you do when you walk into a room of women is everyone bigs each other up you look amazing where do I get that you look great love your skin that's what happens women are amazing there's that brilliant little video on Instagram that's going around where it's like oh my god I love your outfit you look so great and she goes what this one it's just it's just it's 9.99 from New Look like really pretty that's it I don't look good we all do that we all do that you're like oh god it's so old you all have had it for ages you don't look at me no it's okay but you look amazing no you do anyway I love women yes you both look good how are you yeah so great thank you so much for having me so lovely lovely to be back and congratulations absolutely flying you two we're still doing the podcast can you believe it last time we met was six years ago you two were pregnant yeah very pregnant what's been going on it's been a lot it's been a lot since then um well we're still here so that's also very exciting and peanut has just been growing and it's amazing to see and the team is growing and um the mission continues and the mission grows as well and I think as women we just see different needs and we evolve our lives evolve and we start thinking about you know what other people need or where the gaps are or um here's a new experience I'm having are we solving for that too so it's really just an evolution and I think I said it to you guys before but it's really like a life's work and I really I think I feel it more than ever now it's such a responsibility because but for peanut how do these things you know get solved how do women find community and how do you find support and ask the questions no one wants to yeah just for any listeners who

9:30Georgia Dayton: don't know about peanut do you want to just give us a little recap into you know exactly what it is

9:35Michelle Kennedy: when you started it and sort of where you are now yeah so peanut is an app which connects mums across different life stages so if you're trying to conceive if you're pregnant if you're a new mom mom of toddlers tweens whatever it is we've got um other women who are at the same stage as you and you can connect with them you can join groups um of women who are either due at the same time or have kids the same age or whatever it might be so you can ask questions um find support meet up have a real connection god forbid meet up yeah have a real life a real life friend go and do something like see each other um and also just find information as well and resource like for for me trusted resource trusted advice is really important um and so that's that's peanut and we started in 2017 can't believe that yeah what inspired you to start the app um i was working in dating actually so totally different i used to build dating apps and um we were building a really exciting dating app um which became bumble oh yeah yeah you ever on bumble were you no no no but tell me afterwards

10:50Georgia Dayton: for friends wasn't there there was a because i remember doing a partnership with them at work yeah and having to download the bumble app and actually getting in trouble for having the bumble app what james yeah and i was like no no no it's bumble bff and i'm just looking at it for work Like, and it was really, you know, looked very dodgy, but it wasn't.

11:08Michelle Kennedy: So that was, honestly, that's that moment where you're like, okay, so maybe it's not, that's not quite right. And I was, you know, I had, Finn at the time was six months old. So I was like doing cool stuff in the day and then at night, like trawling forums or, you know, trying to find the right advice and also just feeling really other. like I wasn't really one of the guys at work anymore because my life was different and I'd walk down the street and I was like well how do you guys know each other like what did you do right and I did wrong that you've got friends and I haven't and you know it was that kind of feeling of just like pure isolation and also boredom it's really hard and people don't ever talk about it But it's prolonged moments with a little person who actually, particularly in the early days, they don't talk.

12:02Michelle Kennedy: And you're like, I haven't heard my own voice speak for hours. And that is really, you know, all of those feelings. So that was really the start. But I didn't start building Peanut until two and a half years later. OK, talking about those long periods of boredom, I am always so grateful to Georgia for that, because obviously we had met just at that point that we'd had our first. And I remember that feeling. And it was an excitement to meet up with George every day. I was like, oh, my God, I get to see this amazing new mate of mine. It actually makes me feel quite emotional talking about it because she saved me from those first six months where I think a lot of women, like you're saying, don't have anybody.

12:41We would just fuck around together and laugh and drink coffee. It's just magic, isn't it? It's like falling in love. It is.

12:48Georgia Dayton: It is, exactly. And you're so right. You don't realise how lucky you are until you go back. Because what would we have done? Like literally what would we have been doing every day if we didn't have each other? You'd have to hang out with the Dorises in Cheltenham.

13:01Michelle Kennedy: And it's so lonely, right? That moment and that feeling. And also you start to dread as people leave the house. So I would get to the point where Rich was going to work or my mum would come for a few hours and then she'd go. And I'd be like, don't go.

13:15Georgia Dayton: Yeah.

13:16Michelle Kennedy: What will I do? Like who will I talk to? who will I ask and also like how do you ask the questions you know there are things that are happening to your body that I would be like is this right no one told me this would happen you know even just in those really early days you know when you sweat like that and you're in bed and your bed sheets are wet with sweat and I was like no one told me this what's going on with me what's wrong with me all of those feelings and then when we had so when I had Nula when I last saw you guys um and i saw and i had her again totally different time we went into covid that was weird try and block that yeah yeah she don't talk about it yeah but all of those it happened again but this time i had peanut and this time i could ask and actually knew i had loads of different things knew had speech delay hadn't had it with finn didn't know what to do felt like it was my fault but all of a sudden there was like a village of women who i could be like is this happening to anyone else?

14:14Georgia Dayton: And that's the thing, isn't it? It's the village. It's the, you know, it's the evolving sort of topics that come up, yeah, when you're a parent. Then it's not just the early days. Like I find now probably harder. Totally. And I've got more questions now than I've ever had before.

14:30Michelle Kennedy: And society's changing as well right now. So we've got different things that are coming up that you now think about. And it might have been phones and then it's like, oh, actually it's phones and a bit of AI. And it's all these different things. And how do I teach them that they shouldn't believe everything they see? And all these different things. So it is constantly changing. Also, you know what? We change. I want to talk to other women who want to talk to me about that part was hard. Maybe they want to change in their career. Maybe they're thinking about different things. I've got loads of friends who are at the moment who have taken a break from career altogether.

15:03Michelle Kennedy: Oh, God, I want to do that. I'm so interested in it. What are they doing? Are they watching loose women drinking loads of coffee? I'm like, what are you doing? Getting fit. Yeah. Nice. Nice. Don't know what that means, but getting fit. A lot of fitness. A lot of like, you know, all the stuff that they put, you know, at night. And you put all the stuff on your face and wake up and peel it. They're doing a lot of that stuff. Oh, lovely. That's coming for us, George. We're just not quite there yet. Yeah. When we get our yacht, that'll be after that. How many years have we got? We've got a few years to craft.

15:34Don't wheel. Let's move on to your amazing new book, because I want to talk to you about what's happened to us in 2025, where we feel we can't ask for help. You've just written this amazing book, It Takes a Village. And I guess we wanted to sort of get your understanding of why you felt it was necessary to put all of these words down on paper.

15:53Michelle Kennedy: So the book is really, I'm really blessed, right? I get to see the conversations that are happening on Peanut every day. And I can see it across all different stages. So I know what the new mummies are asking. I know what the mummies who have got kids our age are asking. Like I know, all of the kind of the general um feelings but i also know what women are talking about and that for me is the most important um and so really the book was an opportunity to curate some of the stories because if you don't see your story told or yourself in a story that's being told you think that you're the only one and then you get even more lonely so if you for example live with your in-laws and your extended family and you're raising your baby your experience is totally different to someone who is actually a single mom and doing it on her own is different to if you have just moved to a new city for the first time is different and and so on and so on and so if i can't tell all those stories you don't get to see it and you don't get to see yourself so the book is an opportunity to curate those stories but i was really clear i don't know about you but that first year are you joking was I reading a book cover to cover no of course not yeah who's got time for that but I had questions and I wanted to know so the book is set out across that from conception through to that first year but there's an index and you can dip in and out and you can say okay here's the problem I've got now go and find it and navigate to that chapter and read other women who have gone through it here's their experience and they'll be an expert as well because you know i'm not the expert you kind of are and so you'll have like a ob-gyn or a doula or a therapist who will say this is what's happening at this point this is normal this is when you should seek help whatever it might be so it's just a collection of real women's stories across that year with expert help wow amazing thank you amazing thank you how exciting yeah i love it I'm so what a privilege what a privilege to be able to bring those stories together um and what a privilege to even to even see it there is like totally surreal for me I keep looking at it

18:03Georgia Dayton: I'm like I'm gonna take it but you know you made such an interesting point that even if you are at the same stage of motherhood as someone else your circumstances can be so different and so your challenges your day-to-day can be like polar opposite so it's not as easy as just oh you know oh look we've both got eight-year-olds yes oh we will be friends and we'll have the same because that's you're so right if you live with your in-laws and you know you're in a multi-generational home the challenges are going to be different to someone who is nowhere near any of their relatives and yet doesn't mean that it's any hard easier or harder or whatever like my I've not lived near my parents for I think it was 16 years something like that and then three months ago they bought a house 10 minutes down the road for me now my life has changed completely absolutely and I'm still getting used to it jealous yeah but you say that no no but this is the thing you say that but it comes with other challenges like we can't get rid of them yeah no but it comes with no but it comes with responsibility it comes with other worries it comes with you know having that thing of not wanting to put too much on them not but equally then you've got other grandparents and it just comes with different challenges that not everyone would be able to relate to and that's the whole thing isn't it you know I've got a best friend that lives in Singapore nowhere near her you know family she's got a live-in nanny so you know another one of my friends would be like oh well she's got living help like it's absolutely fine for her it's not like you know everyone has got their own things going on it's exactly that right we've we're all

19:51Michelle Kennedy: living our own version and there are some topics that unite us right sleep we're all naked all the time and like we're all trying to figure it out and will they ever sleep they will sleep yeah they it will end you know what for me my daughter never ate will she ever eat yeah she will eat she's dinky but surely i'm still there and you do you know what and it's all those feelings of like will this ever it will and that's commonality and that's uniting but there are other challenges that we all go through and if you don't hear that story the the you start to hide it as well and that hiding or suppressing stories really does lead to isolation and loneliness and we know how dangerous loneliness is on our health it is worse for you than a packet of cigarettes a day so if you know that loneliness has such an impact on your health why wouldn't we just try and change it and i'm not saying you need to have 20 friends and when we say village village can be one look at you two right so village shouldn't feel like it has to be like i now need to go and build a village of 30 women no it just takes one but you have that one person who you can text who makes you laugh when things are awful who says to you do you know what actually maybe that one isn't normal yeah and I think you should go and get that checked or speak to someone or whatever it is that's all it takes um and so I really I I cannot emphasize enough we were never ever meant to raise kids alone that is not how the point of course we were never meant to do that and if you look back historically you look at how actually people who don't live in the western world have raised their children no one was doing it alone this kind of thing where we've all kind of now segregated we live in box these little boxes and we don't live around each other that's not how we were it was intended um and even the name of the book it takes a village it was really about um that phrase it takes a village to raise a child but it takes a village to raise a mother we don't we don't know Before you have your child, you've never been a mother before.

21:55Michelle Kennedy: And it's the only thing that you will walk out of the hospital and no one's given you any... If you go in for a procedure on your knee, you get an aftercare leaflet.

22:06Georgia Dayton: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you do.

22:07Michelle Kennedy: Where's your aftercare leaflet when you've pushed out a baby? You walk out with that car seat. Yeah. With so many questions. And you're like this, bye. And, you know, you don't know anything about what's about to happen and all you need is someone else to say, to do what you just did and hold your hand and say it's okay I'm here too or I've been there.

22:27Georgia Dayton: We'll be right back after this short break.

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22:46Michelle Kennedy: It's a new Workday. Hi this is Monica Reinagle of Nutrition Diva. Today's show is sponsored by Nature Raised Farms. Grocery shopping can be a little overwhelming, especially if you're reading labels. And in my opinion, chicken shouldn't be complicated, which is why I appreciate Nature Raised Farms. It's chicken that's just chicken. And their lightly breaded chicken nuggets are free from gluten, dairy and soy. Look for Nature Raised Farms on your next grocery trip and feel more confident about your choices. it takes the hits runs the miles rebuilds while you sleep it's felt every fall every dance floor every belly laugh and in return it asks for nothing it just keeps going i'm ellie taylor and this is back your body the podcast from holland and barrett that's all about the most loyal relationship you'll ever have the one you have with your body from scars to self-care the bits you love and the bits you've learned to love we're talking to people about the bodies they live in, how they've pushed them, neglected them, rebuilt them, or finally learned to listen to them.

23:52It's time to back your body the way it's always back to you. Back your body. Subscribe now. Your body will thank you.

24:04Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? I remember getting comments on more than one occasion, actually, about not having had experience with babies before I gave birth. So lots of women, guys, have had younger siblings, much younger, maybe second time around, or little cousins that they've had. And I remember getting these quite judgy comments like, oh, so you haven't had any experience with kids before? No, why would I? I was having the absolute fucking time. Yeah, I had to. Living it up in London, being single, and then suddenly there was a baby there. Yeah. And I just thought, I do not know what I'm doing here.

24:39I just don't have any tools in my toolbox. It's that. What tools do you have?

24:45Michelle Kennedy: And again, like drawing on the experiences you've got. Well, the only experience I had was corporate life. Yeah. So I was like, OK, so by this point, you should be doing this and not being able to control the output of the input, which was my effort that sent me. Honestly, I think it sent me over the edge because I was like, well, I'm obviously failing. Yeah. Haven't had the vaginal birth I wanted. Failing have ended up giving um fin a bottle because it couldn't get the latch right failing and now he's not even doing everything according to these milestones that i think i'm meant to be meeting and that is absolute nonsense because they're all little people and they're doing their own thing and had someone just have said listen they're all going to walk into school together and yeah and yeah it doesn't

25:33Georgia Dayton: matter why can't we not ask yeah why can't we just say that you know but who i i think there's a lot

25:39Michelle Kennedy: around who do we ask because if you think even from a when you're on that ward and the ward is crazy right the ward is like bustling everyone's you're there you're totally overwhelmed you're exhausted you've been through birth you're like oh my god and the noise and the volume and the smells and you're really I was listening to a story the other day it was a poker thing of a woman who said that she asked another woman to get to get her some toast it was Sian yeah she asked her to heat her bottle up to heat the bottle she thought it was the midwife and it was just another mum on the wall did she do it yeah yes and she did do it i think it's hilarious and i loved the story but because i totally can relate to that overwhelm of like you can't even see what people are wearing yeah you're just you can't even move she was in like um tiger pajamas or something that and she said obviously in hindsight she should have noticed that the woman was walking around in like these slippers and pajamas and that's my point right who should we ask for help because if you are in that complete wall of overwhelm and the nhs is so stretched and you're sent home and we're not even really getting the same level of like health visitor support that we you know and and then you're like well i don't know who to ask i remember going to my gp and saying I think there's something wrong with me I keep rolling over and thinking I'm squashing the baby and he's not even in the bed yeah oh my god or hunting for the baby I'd wake up and be like oh my god and I'd throw the duvet covers back and also be like the baby's in the next week awful and it's horrendous and I started crying and I was like I need you to help me I think that I can't think where I've put him because I think he's in the bed and I'm going to roll over and they gave me a questionnaire to like tick whether I was like had depression I was like depressed I'm way beyond depression I can't I'm not I can't think straight um but I still think

27:43Georgia Dayton: it's amazing that you went to the GP yes because there are so many people that wouldn't have

27:47Michelle Kennedy: absolutely absolutely absolutely and therefore you need to have someone who's checking in on you you need to have a friend you need someone who's living it with you doesn't have to be loads but why can't we ask for help because i think we don't know who to ask but i do think it's one friend it's a bigger problem for me about really women asking for help yeah sure and i'm not just talking about mothers i'm talking about that feeling of even when we're sick how many times have you felt like absolute dog shit through illness or being hung over whatever it is and still got up and done the breakfast and still, because we can't turn around to our partner and go, do you know what?

28:26I'm actually just not feeling well enough. Can you do it? We don't, this is a big problem for me.

28:30Georgia Dayton: Because when does that change? Because I think about it like growing up, right? I was an only child. I was like pampered. If I had a sniffle, like I could go up to bed and like be like, oh, I've got a sniffle. Like someone look after me. Like I could have that. But when did that change? Do you know what I mean? When did that change that now I'm like, no, I'm fine. Don't worry about me. The stoicism. Like, yeah, I'm fine. When did that happen?

28:53Michelle Kennedy: Yeah, I don't know. It's really interesting, actually, because I'm an only child as well. But I always felt like quite, maybe because my parents weren't together at the end. And so I felt actually quite responsible for both. I get that now. Yeah, and you start being like a little, you just become quite focused on what you need to do and get through and that kind of thing. um but i think that when does it change from now you it's i'm stoic and don't ask me i think it's expectations right because what happens if we do say no i'm not doing it well things stop and our expectations are we can't let them stop because we have things to do busy women got shit to get done i've got to get him there football training i've got to get her to ballet or whatever it is you We've got stuff to do and I don't think that we can afford to let the ball drop.

29:51But we should be able to say when we need a rest, when we need a sleep, when we need some help, when we feel guilty, when we feel sad. But there's something about, I don't know whether it's a society or something that we feel we don't have the space for it or we aren't allowed to say it. Rest is like rest frowned upon.

30:13Michelle Kennedy: Yeah, we don't rest actually. But we also I think about this a lot in terms of that kind of culture of hustle culture. Right. You've got to be doing something. What's next? What are you building next? What are you doing next? And there is a lot of that. And actually, when I think generationally, my mum didn't have that. No, no, no, no. No one was expecting her to now be thinking about the next thing. I was her thing.

30:38Georgia Dayton: I have this with my mum.

30:40Michelle Kennedy: And I think there is a generational thing. So as we've become lonelier because we don't have support and we've moved away from, you know, we don't live next door to our mom and around the corner from our sister and the village has shrunk. Not only that, now the expectations are even higher and we expect that women can do all these things as well. And and we've been told we should. That whole girl boss era was like for me that I lived and breathed the girl boss era. and it's very hard to be stepped back from that and say actually I just want to rest yeah hey robot hi robot can you can you parent really hard can you work really hard can you love really hard can you hone really hard no because I'm not a machine absolutely I'm a human and I really really really try to say to the kids I am tired tired I cannot spend an hour doing bedtime now so you get yourselves in the shower I'll read with each of you for two or three minutes two or three pages and I'm going to bed and I do it.

31:36And Luna says to me, mommy, are you tired? I go, yeah, because I've now been going for 14 hours and I'm exhausted. I am. Yeah, I am. I'm at the end.

31:43Michelle Kennedy: And I think the guilt also, I have the guilt, I see things, again, social media, versus like the reality. So I see someone who's doing, I don't know, some really beautiful arts and crafts with their kid at home. Oh God, stop. And I'm like,

32:02Michelle Kennedy: I love that for your child. I'm so jealous now I feel guilty yeah because I do not do that I can't and I have not done that no glitter's not allowed right and now I have that expectation of if I do have time if I do have a minute should I be doing arts and crafts or not I was so bored as a kid I had loads of time when I just had also as an only child I was just on my own yeah doing stuff making games do you think my mum thought god I feel really bad but I'm not doing this of course I know

32:38Georgia Dayton: but do you think we know how to rest because I don't think I do I think if you told me to rest I would take it when I just think about this weekend so my daughter had an operation on Thursday no no she's fine it was just like a little thing and we were told she can't do anything for the weekend so we were like oh great let's have a chilled weekend are you joking we uh i i basically organized every cupboard in my house right this is a chilled weekend let's organize every cupboard in our house i know let's make multiple tip runs um i did our like i batch cooked for about three weeks um we went out for dinner which was fine you know that's a nice thing to do but last night i said oh that was a really nice chilled weekend and jones looked at me and he was like chilled you didn't actually sit down no and then i was like yeah i did i did and then i thought fuck no i didn't i didn't actually sit down i don't know how i don't know

33:48Michelle Kennedy: what that is but that again also is i think expectation because what you are thinking is if I don't do this, then the next time that I haven't got a meal that I can whip out for the kids, or I'm trying to find something and I can't find it, I'm going to be like, I should have done that that weekend, but I had nothing to do. And that's your own like narrative. Because no one's going to say that to you, by the way, right? No, of course not. We're all running at like this pace that is totally unsustainable. And my mum, who was an amazing like mum and worked all these different jobs but she for me but she wasn't like thinking about the cupboards I tell you definitely my mum wasn't thinking about the cupboards or batch cooking for that matter definitely thank god but definitely not um that was a reference to her cooking not to batch cooking um I I just don't I don't think that um we have been able to shake off this narrative that you can have it all, be it all, do it all because we're still doing it.

34:51Michelle Kennedy: We're still trying.

34:52Georgia Dayton: Even though we know it's silly. That's the thing, isn't it? Even though we know we can't do all of it and you can't be all things to people, it's still like somewhere in us that we want to be. It's more than silly. It's actually really damaging. Damaging. Really, really damaging. You know like the childhood free smartphone situation? We all need to get on board with this that actually if we take ourselves off to go and sit on the sofa for half an hour or an hour, or go to bed or do whatever. We have to all do it. That's right. We need to all do it. That's right. Because then it becomes the norm.

35:21That's right.

35:22Georgia Dayton: And not everything is like perfection. So, you know, not every child has to be doing all of this stuff or not every birthday party has to be like a big fanfare because it becomes like not keeping up. It just becomes like, well, you don't want to let your kids down.

35:38Michelle Kennedy: A standard. Yeah. You've now set a standard and now it's the next standard and on and on it goes. But we do all have to like make like a pact. I'm not doing it. I'm out. I'm checking out. Yeah, because it is really hard. And I think that there are certain things that I afford myself to say I'm not a part of that. I'm not doing that. That's not me. And then I try and overcome with it by doing everything else on the other things. And it's no good. And also, quite frankly, when I look at my husband, he's amazing. I'm not knocking him. I am so lucky and he definitely pulls his weight. But does he ever feel guilty about the fact that he sat down on the sofa waiting for the tennis to start last night?

36:20Michelle Kennedy: No, I know. They don't feel guilty. No guilt at all. No guilt. So I think we just have to cancel the guilt. Yeah. But how? They do not give any shits at all.

36:36Georgia Dayton: I went to Cyprus for a week without my husband because he was working and then joined us. like a week later and um bearing in mind like someone comes and does the washing someone does the cleaning like there really isn't anything for him to do at home like really there is nothing for him to do apart from i don't know if he wants to iron his socks probably does um fine so he had every weeknight you know after work it was also a bank holiday weekend so he had three days in a row without kids without you know anything to do I was like oh my god it's amazing and I came home we all came home together and I opened the dishwasher and it was the same stuff in the dishwasher furious that when I'd left it was clean but I knew it was because we'd had a barbecue on that Sunday I'd explode oh no no I did I did I was speaking to you yeah yeah yeah of course brilliant um and i i couldn't believe it and he was like but i didn't need to unload the dishwasher because it was all clean and i was like okay but why didn't you he was like oh well i thought raymond would do anyway fine i was like but i still can't get my head around like why hadn't you why didn't you do this why didn't you do that why didn't you know was he in the house do we know he stayed there where did he go i saw all of the takeaway stuff in the bin you know like he hadn't even actually maybe opened it to know he hadn't even made himself like breakfast he had like not made himself breakfast like he yeah of course but he hadn't done anything and i was like oh my god how lovely for you like yeah i couldn't do that and he was like but i really wanted to like do things that i wanted to do when i went and watched a football match i you know did this i came home from work and watched the football i came home from work and watched the golf I just got dinner on the way home I just grabbed it on the way home and I was like oh my god if that was me I'd be like right I've got a week to myself this house is going to get organised top to bottom I'm going to make what?

38:41Georgia Dayton: that's the problem I was jealous I'm going to do palaces at 5 every morning I'd be like I'm going to get a box set

38:52Michelle Kennedy: I'm going to get my red wine no one call me I'd be texting you saying should we go to a beach? I've booked us two flights and George is coming too but she's too busy doing lattes at 5am. None of that. But I would... It's the problem though, Nate, because I think, and I'm not digging you out because I think we all fall into this trap. We do. But there has to be a real push from all of us to go, actually, the load has to be shared, the conversations have to be happened and we don't and can't do it all. And you can't be perfect. You can't be perfect. And perfect is just not a thing at all. No. right it's just and actually it all goes back to the fact that you need a friend because actually you need someone to say hey relax doesn't matter let it go yeah you you need that balance but if it's all your own narrative for me certainly in the early days of both of mine as well there were things that i could control and when you can't control anything during their childhood and you're really stuck because they really do their own thing the things you can control might be order in your home or for me it was work so I could like focus there and that actually if I'd have had someone around me who was saying should we walk yeah should we go and get a coffee yeah should we do it yeah exactly everything changes oh I've seen there's an event on here should we take the push chairs and let's go all of a sudden you're like oh well yeah we could do that how nice it would be to get out of my own head and not be focused on those things and I think it's really important and again back in the day when we were having families family a child was the whole street's child right you had a child and everyone on that street had that child they were playing out on the street everyone was looking after the child and yeah mom might have been in a more traditional role inside um and you know there were flaws within that setup but the thing that did happen was a sense of community because if someone got ill so-and-so around the corner was bringing you a casserole or whatever it might be oh yeah those people that dropped food off on doorsteps where's that right and culturally in some cultures it's still there we just have chosen to not really celebrate or talk about it and we need to you know reimagine the village and it is there it still does exist we just have to bring it back we'll be right back after this short break Hi, this is Monica Reinagle of Nutrition Diva.

41:20Michelle Kennedy: Today's show is sponsored by Nature Raised Farms. Grocery shopping can be a little overwhelming, especially if you're reading labels. And in my opinion, chicken shouldn't be complicated, which is why I appreciate Nature Raised Farms. It's chicken that's just chicken. And their lightly breaded chicken nuggets are free from gluten, dairy and soy. Look for nature-raised farms on your next grocery trip and feel more confident about your choices.

42:10every belly laugh and in return it asks for nothing it just keeps going i'm ellie taylor and this is back your body the podcast from holland and barrett that's all about the most loyal relationship you'll ever have the one you have with your body from scars to self-care the bits you love and the bits you've learned to love we're talking to people about the bodies they live in how they've pushed them neglected them rebuilt them or finally learned to listen to them it's time to back your body the way it's always back to you. Back your body. Subscribe now, your body will thank you.

42:48Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? I had this really sad thought the other day, and I won't go into why I felt sad, but I suddenly felt there's nobody there to look after me. Oh, no. I'm also happily married, by the way. So I know that my husband loves me to death and he would do anything for me but I did feel ultimately that I would just have to take care of myself right that's a really depressing sad thought that is and by the way it's not true

43:18Michelle Kennedy: um and I'm married and she'll come and do your cupboards as well for you so at least you won't have to worry about that but um that feeling of I think is actually a reflection on um that you're worried about how much you actually do and I think it is one of those things where actually what you're thinking about is if I wasn't here how would these things get done and the answer is do you know what sometimes you have to go back to the wisdom of my mum and my mum said never iron a man's shirt and I said and if you do do it once and do it really badly and I was like why I used to iron my school shirts every Sunday night right I was like a bit obsessive about it um didn't like co-riding um and she said to me um because that way he'll never ask you again he'll make sure that he always knows how to do it but you never do it and if you do it do it once and do it badly and i think it's kind of brilliant many many words of wisdom from my mom but i think that there's it's kind of the thing of if you didn't do it it would get done it might not get done how you would do it i know but it would get done and so actually the biggest challenge for all of us is what if i don't do it just oh god this is so prevalent in my mind at the moment yeah absolutely and so that's why i think you're thinking about no one would look after me you're just thinking about the weight of what you do but what if you just stop doing it now it would get done maybe not exactly

44:47Georgia Dayton: like you like it might not get done and maybe the world would still keep going that's the thing isn't it but i put it to the test yesterday oh did you oh go on oh i love these my words I hate these all the time. So I put it to the test yesterday when we went back because we went to see, we went to view some puppies yesterday. I haven't spoken about this on the podcast yet. More to come on that. Anyway, and when I got home, I said, I'm just going to go upstairs and I'm going to just sit on, I'm just going to get into bed for an hour. I'm just going to put the telly on. I just need an hour. I need a reset.

45:17We had one of Doz's mates there with his little girl. So I was like, the boys can look after all the kids. Great. Right? Heaven. I'm not joking. 15 minutes. Door flies open. Kit comes charging in. the kids were running in and out in and out, in and out and I thought where the fuck are they? Why are they not looking after all the kids? And I went downstairs, they were asleep so I ended up doing it and cooking dinner for someone else's kid and I just thought, I was really cross about it Did you say it? No, haven't said it This is the other thing we do

45:49Georgia Dayton: because we're really cross this is like the other day when I opened the dishwasher and Zoe said have you said anything yet? and I'm like nope, it's just brewing

45:56Michelle Kennedy: I've got another really good example then a couple of weeks ago we were in Scotland and um I have something like a similar kind of situation right I've gone and I'm like I want to have a shower and I want to have a shower and I want to wash my hair and if Rich is in the shower does anyone go in the bathroom no no of course not absolutely not no one bothers him is and he's in there for ages on his phone right so I go in and in that time I've had Nula come in she's opened the door while I'm like what's up darling oh where's my blah blah blah I don't know I'll study next one Finn comes in mummy but I'm like Dolly I'm in the shower can we talk about it just give me 20 minutes anyway this happens several several times I got out of the shower and I said like I'm in like neighbours or something family conference please family conference please yeah and everyone looked to me and I was like no one bothers daddy when he's in the shower and they both look at me and Rich is like right and I said and whilst I was in the toilet you've all come in you've all had conversations with me they're all for things that you could do very well by yourself and you know what I know you think I'm a psycho but I'm feeling a little bit unwell and you're all mithering me and I just need a little break I'm now going to go and blow dry my hair no one come after me oh my god i love you for that no i had to do it i i think because i wasn't feeling very well and i just lost it yeah well done so maybe you can say it five minutes p

47:26Georgia Dayton: where the mrs large in charge mrs large wants to have a bath yeah and then all the kids come in and then she goes downstairs and eventually she has like two minutes and 47 seconds and they all get in the bed with her yeah it's large i don't think they make those anymore it's not very appropriate really oh okay all right i'm going to channel that person yeah yeah you've got to say it

47:48Michelle Kennedy: that's it anyway i felt liberated i love you for this michelle because you know what that like suppressed anger and then it comes out in like snipey little comments yeah i am that person by the way i'm always snipey yeah um that's not good for anyone no we've already had a row so it's fine i'll deal with it when i get back that's okay great um let's everyone needs to buy the book yes please go and buy the book that would be great and when's it out uh it's out on thursday and it's published by Penguin and it's an amazing book. And if you have someone in your life who is going to be a mum, trying to be a mum, pregnant in that first year, in that first five years for that matter, buy the book for them.

48:26Michelle Kennedy: If it's not you, buy it for them because it's the book I wish I had, truly.

48:32Georgia Dayton: I love that. And we probably asked you before actually because this has been going forever since we started the podcast. But if you could give one piece of advice to another parent or a new mum, what would that be?

48:46Michelle Kennedy: Do the smile. Do the awkward high. Ask the question to invite them for coffee. Be brave and do that one thing. I promise you, I am really, really socially awkward. And I even I now will do it because it is life changing. and having just one other woman in your life will make it infinitely better. And so be brave and just do the thing. Hi, fancy a coffee. How bad was your night? Whatever it is, do it. Do the thing. That's what we did, George. Yeah, we did. It's lovely. What a great piece of advice. Michelle Kennedy, thank you so much for coming on The Book On. Thank you, ladies. Yay! I mean, I tell you what, she says that she's got social anxiety and feels a bit awkward, but what a guest.

49:32I know. Do you know what I love? I love it when we get people on the podcast that speak our language, don't speak our language, come in with different views, have different opinion points because it's just so interesting. When you meet somebody that really taps into how we felt during that time and has created this community of people that can really save someone's life.

49:52Georgia Dayton: Yeah, exactly. That soulmate, that's what she's providing. And her new book, It Takes a Village, everybody needs to go out and buy that. Yeah, definitely. And if you're listening to this thinking, oh you know I haven't got I haven't got any mates you know who are a similar stage to me or you know I haven't got any really one I can properly speak to I really hope this gives you a bit of you know go you know go and do it because it doesn't have to be like an all singing all dancing friendship you know you can just meet somebody online like via the peanut app who you can just chat to and And I think everyone does need it, even if you don't think you do.

50:30Georgia Dayton: Everyone does need someone to talk to. Yeah, and also if you see another mum sitting there with a pram, looking a bit knackered and, you know, maybe a bit sad, and you go over and say hello. Exactly. You don't know who you're going to meet. Exactly. Thank you to Michelle Kennedy for coming on the podcast. As always, we'd love you to rate, review, subscribe, and please give our podcast a follow. Yeah, and if you've got any feedback on this episode or guests you'd like to hear from, drop us a DM on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mamas and we'll be back on Friday.

51:08Michelle Kennedy: Hi, this is Monica Reinagle of Nutrition Diva. Today's show is sponsored by Nature Raised Farms. Grocery shopping can be a little overwhelming, especially if you're reading labels. And in my opinion, chicken shouldn't be complicated, which is why I appreciate Nature Raised Farms. It's chicken that's just chicken and their lightly breaded chicken nuggets are free from gluten, dairy and soy. Look for Nature Raised Farms on your next grocery trip and feel more confident about your choices. It takes the hits, runs the miles, rebuilds while you sleep. It's felt every fall, every dance floor, every belly laugh and in return it asks for nothing.

51:50It just keeps going. I'm Ellie Taylor and this is Back Your Body, the podcast from Holland and Barrett that's all about the most loyal relationship you'll ever have. The one you have with your body. From scars to self-care, the bits you love and the bits you've learned to love, we're talking to people about the bodies they live in. How they've pushed them, neglected them, rebuilt them or finally learned to listen to them. It's time to back your body the way it's always back to you. Back your body. Subscribe now. Your body will thank you.