Zoe & Georgia on Why Are We Policing Our Girls?

0:00Hello, everybody. I'm Natalie Cassidy, and I have a podcast called Life with Nat. And this week has been very special because I got to interview Andy Burnham, the Prime Minister of the UK. You know, when I walked up that street for the first time to come into this place, you know, I knew that my dad was, you know, reaching the end of his journey. And it was hard. And I, you know, the coming together of those two things has made a hard, what would have been a hard thing, intensely hard at times. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and let me know what you think. Join our family, life with Matt.

0:36I hope you enjoy.

0:40Hello and welcome to Made by Mamas, the podcast. I'm Zoe Hardman. And I'm Georgia Dayton. And this is your parenting safe space where no conversation is off limits. With five kids between G and I, we have seen a lot. We really have. Each week we'll be joined by some famous faces and experts and we'll chat about the brands and products that have saved us along the way. In short, we're the parenting podcast for you. Before we get started, hit subscribe or follow so you're the first to know when each episode lands. And they're on Tuesdays and Fridays. And it really helps if you leave a rating and a review.

1:13You can also find us on Instagram. We're on at Made by Mummies. But for now, George, should we get into it? Hello, you lovely bunch, and welcome to Tuesday's episode of the podcast. I thought you were going to say hello, you lovely to me, and then you didn't, you bypassed me. It's always all good, isn't it? Hello, gorgeous Georgia. Hello, gorgeous Zoe. Are you all right? What can I call you? Zesty Zoe? Zesty Zoe. It's got a ring to it. Are you okay? How are you doing? I'm all right. I'm good. Yeah, anyone who is applying for secondary schools and navigating that whole thing right now, I'm with you.

1:49It's actually so full on and so much. Georgia's weekend was a bit like applying for MI5. It's, I mean, at this point, I think some schools want your blood type. I think, do you know what? We're going all in. We're doing all different routes. Axel's done the grammar. He's doing like selective state and he's also doing independent. So we are like, you know, we are doing all of the options. You're the mum and jeff. Yeah, we are. So I, you know, I appreciate I've got myself into this, hands up. But it is actually a lot. Was it like six hours of assessments on Saturday? Yeah, six hours on Saturday for one place.

2:27And that was his fourth time that he'd been there. What? Yeah. And on Sunday, it was actually just a sports aptitude test. Casual. Which is like, a lot of the state schools near us do it. They have these sports academies attached to the school. And you can go in and do this sports aptitude. But honestly, there are thousands of children. Really? It is wild. It's like Pop Idol for kids. Yeah. And you know, I don't know. It depends, I guess, on how your child is. But sending them off to these things, you do feel like, oh, it's actually quite full on. Back in my day, right, if you knew the headmaster and you had like a pair of purple Dot Martins, you could basically get in.

3:13I mean, I failed every exam under the sun because my mum was mates with the headmaster. They were like, yeah, she does have to repeat it because she's horrifically dyslexic and she's way behind in all of her subjects. But yeah, fine, no worries. Yeah, I know. It's mental now. I don't understand. I mean, yeah. So just that's where I'm at at the moment. Every day is like, oh, could you come back for this? Oh, could you come back for that? And if you're a working parent, I just don't know how it's all happening. Presentation. Got to do a five-minute presentation on flags. Got to do, I mean. On flags?

3:47Oh, Jesus. So good. By the way, just filling you in, And Georgie decided because she had six hours to kill and she can't relax. She thought, what am I going to do to kill six hours in Chelmsford? So she thought, oh, I know. I'll have a little sleep in my car. And she's putting the seat back to me. And then I'll be going to. How'd that sleep work out for you? If anyone saw me in Chelmsford on Saturday, I had planned, drop out, drop out to the wall, do the parent thing for a bit, then go and do like some jobs. And I'd have my laptop with me. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to get like four hours of work done before Monday.

4:17This is going to be amazing. Forgot my laptop. and as we know I'm not good at like relaxing so I was trying to book an air appointment I was trying to find like something else to do so then in the end I did I went I drove to the school an hour and a half early and I thought I'm gonna have a sleep in the car oh my god that's what people do well you're never getting into that fucking school well I couldn't because I can't do that so yeah I was just like putting the chair back putting it up putting it back putting it up I was like a child pressing all the buttons opening the roof closing the room Georgia entertains herself in a car But like, yeah, it's not good.

4:50Good weekend for you then, mate. Yeah, how are you? I can't, well, I can't believe we're like halfway through October. Oh no. No, the hot topic of conversation in our house is Halloween outfits. Oh, really? Yeah, so Kit's decided to go as Michael Jackson in Thriller. We're now trying to learn the dance. I'm trying to learn the dance and the moonwalk, which I'm dreadful at. It actually looks really easy, but apparently I'm doing it all wrong, which they keep telling me. And Luna's going as Harley Quinn. That's what she wants. Which I feel like was big like three or four years ago. That's all right.

5:21But yeah, she's doing that. It's fine. I think Gigi wants to go as a cookie monster. The cookie monster? Yeah, cookie monster. It's so random, isn't it? How do they come up with these things? I don't think it's about characters that are scary any longer. I don't either. That's a good point. Like we went last year as Pammy and Tommy. Yeah. Like, they're not scary. Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee. No, they're not at all. No, not even a tiny bit of blood on you or anything. I just look really thick. Because that's what people used to do, didn't they? They'd be like, oh, they'd wear something really sexy and then put like a tiny bit of a slut.

5:53A slutty cat. Like a tiny, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, slutty cat, slutty ghost. Basically, slutty in front of anything. Back in the day, it was just an opportunity to get shag, wasn't it? You'd be like, ooh, tonight's Halloween. I'm just going to wear my underwear out and see who I can end up with. Yeah, a tiny little bit of extra eyeliner. But we're obviously, we're joking around about Halloween and stuff, But it would be weird, I think, if we had a catch up and didn't kind of talk about how after we spoke about Luna and the TikTok situation and Dawn and all of that kind of stuff that we didn't, I guess, follow it up.

6:30Because I think so many of us were, I mean, I guess probably taken by surprise because we're laughing about how time goes so quickly. But I think the stuff around online safety, you don't think that you're there yet. Yeah. And then you suddenly are. Yeah. For those of you that maybe missed that podcast or didn't didn't see the socials, Georgia and I had an influx of, I mean, thousands of DMs from people saying, thank you so much for talking about it. both of you thank you for highlighting it it's prompted me to go and check my child's device you know and also you know part of why I really wanted to talk about it wasn't just uh you know for the obvious reasons it really was to try and educate and to try and raise awareness because we've spoken about this hundreds of times on the pod you think you know what's going on you think you've put the parental controls on and then guess what they've managed to either go around them or us as the grown-ups haven't locked them down properly yeah and there was there was shame on my side I wanted to take all the shame away from Luna because she was nine at the time yeah 10 now she didn't have a clue what was going on she didn't realize that her profile was public she didn't realize that people were messaging her you know I was so shocked and when I had a follow-up conversation with her post us doing that podcast the tears and and the shame that came out again she was going oh you're embarrassed by me you know do you feel shit And I was like, this isn't about you.

7:55This is not your fault. We are being thrown into a world that actually we didn't want. We didn't ask for this. We didn't have it when we were kids. And now we're trying to navigate it. So rather than run away from it, we just want to be armed with all the information to protect them. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's probably that's, you know, something that we're really going to look at over the next few months is, you know, looking at all of the different options of how we can we can't get away from technology. We can't get away from the fact that the kids are going to have devices. It is, you know, this is the world we live in.

8:26And I think I probably mentioned on one of the chats that we had that I'd seen that you could go into a store and you could get someone to check your devices. Yeah, this is amazing. Yeah, so we found out it's actually EE. And hopefully we're going to be working with them and going into store and doing it for ourselves. but essentially they have this service where you can go in and you can get set up on an e safer sim I'd actually been looking at these because Axel starts secondary school next year and we're going to try and build up some independence but essentially where you can have all your wi-fi settings in your house locked down you know via whoever your provider is when they're out of the house they don't have those anymore but if they have this safer sim it's it's there and you get parental controls on that and it means that when they're out of the house you have that control too because that's always the worry isn't it in your house you can have all your wi-fi settings locked down and then as soon as they step out of the house they're not there anymore this you're talking about let's say they get to a place whatever age you decide to give your child a smartphone so is that the way that they do it then by putting you have to insert a safer sim and on that sim once they've left the house the same rules apply essentially i think it doesn't even have to be a physical sim anymore does it it can be like the e-sims so right but essentially what i love about this service is you can actually go in and speak to a human and they can you know take you through everything they've got loads of stuff on the website i've started having to look through um but yeah i think over the coming months me and you we need to be all over it go in do the appointment find out what you know what can be done work out because kids will probably be able to get around certain things with vpns and all that kind of stuff how do we do that but i just think knowing about all of these things and knowing that there is some like there's an e probably on your high street most people will have one you can just pop in with your devices book an appointment and just have a chat with someone i love this from them actually so do i And I feel like they should be shouting louder about it.

10:35And we, and George and I have been talking about it, that we really want to throw ourselves behind a campaign like this because it means so much to both of us. We've got out unscathed this time. Yeah, I love the idea of just taking them in, all of them. I mean, I don't give my kids my phone any longer because I'm like, it's not, it's all there. It's all there. And actually, when you're sitting in a pub trying to have a meal, trying to have a conversation with your other mates and your kids are there, you go, oh yeah, take my phone. And they're sitting there like that. what are they watching I know I don't know no I know exactly and I think that's the kind of conversation you can have can't you you can say to you know the person in here you can be like you know sometimes I give like you know my child a phone my phone what you know what can I put on it what do what parental settings can I put on my own phone so that when I hand it over they can't access loads of stuff um yeah well we'll let you know how we get on when we go in well well done Thank you, George, for highlighting that, because obviously we didn't have a clue about it until you'd obviously done your research on that.

11:33I've sort of seen it, but I didn't know exactly what it was. Anyway, EE, call us. We'll be your poster girls. We'll be right back after this short break.

11:47This week on Help, I sexted my boss. As I got out of the shower, I took my towel off. Didn't see, and the blog behind me did the same thing, and our bums touched. She suggested we take our food up to the bedroom and continue from there. Then I heard the takeaway tray with the remaining kebab being handled. And I went whack into it and went right into my eye and I dropped to the floor and screamed. Oh, Mr. Inverdrive, help me please. Listen and watch wherever you get your podcasts.

12:24Welcome back to this episode of Made by Mamas. Now, where were we? And everything else, all right? You and James, good? Yes, we're good. Clinging on in there? Clinging on in there. No, we're good, actually. He was away for... He's actually been away quite a lot of the weekends. Oh, yeah? What have you been up to this time? I quite enjoy it. He was playing in an ex-Scottish Premier... Premiership Players... Game? Game. like a tournament indoors in a stadium and it's six a side like an old boys one yeah and so he was away doing that which was fun and he phoned me he was like oh god George I was like what he said everyone thinks just assumes I'm still fit because I haven't got fat because loads of them when they retire from football they get really fat he hasn't got really fat I just don't think it's in his genetics but I'm not he's like but I'm not fit he said everyone everyone's like oh dates he's gonna be all right look look him he's you know he's trim blah blah he's like yeah I literally can't move I mean tell them to listen to the podcast we know that from the swimming incident don't we where he literally nearly died on the side of the river so he's like oh no yeah I think he really felt very old it happens to the best of us yeah and that he yeah I mean he's had a lot of these warnings now that he's not that fit and he really needs to do something but he still looks fit and then with his new lid, his new hair.

13:54His new hair. He's got straight teeth now. Yeah. He's had his glow up. Yeah, but just not internally. No. That's, I think, where we all need to focus, maybe. So, yeah, we were talking about Axel and his very, very busy weekend, but you've got to talk to me about Gigi because Gigi is basically going to be taking over from Kimberley Wyatt with the old leg above the head trip. Yeah, I mean, she's doing really well with her dancing and acro, isn't she? She's really good. Yeah, she's really good at gymnastics and I think in the last six months, She's just grown up. You know, she's just kind of grown up.

14:25She really listens in class. She really practices and she really loves it. And with that comes a lot of rehearsing at home. Yeah. And the other week she had a friend over who's actually in secondary school, which makes me laugh. But they are really good friends. We're friends with the parents and family as well. She'd come around and they always want to go, oh, can we do a dance for you? Can we do a dance for you? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not another fucking show. Yeah. Watch us. And anyway, they were dancing to Shakira. Die, die. Die, die, yeah. Wow. Gigi, bearing on my mind, she's seven and her friend is 11.

15:06Her friend's dancing is very sweet and innocent and gorgeous. I know what's coming here. Gigi's dancing is like twerking. I mean, all of the actions are a lot. Okay, yes. And I'm like, whoa. Okay. Okay, okay. And she wants to be wearing a crop top. She's pulling her shorts right up. I like big butts in a car not like. And she's on the floor gyrating. And I'm like, whoa, okay. And then her friend behind is just like, and I'm thinking, Jesus Christ. So what's your... I'm so glad we're at home. But... What's your thought? Because obviously, listen. I am so torn over this. Right. You go. Because if she was doing that as an...

15:5215, 16, 17 year old, I think I would be like, oh, that's a lot. You know, like that is very like sexual, but she's seven. So it's not at all, but it does. I don't know. Is it? Of course it's not. Of course it doesn't even know. But why is it? I'm not, don't get to that. So I'm not, I'm not thinking that you are creating a scenario, but what is it? A question for all of us. What is it that makes us think that just because, a girl is wearing a crop top and putting her shorts up and gyrating around that that is sexual yeah that's something that we've been taught yes exactly from a very young age that you know your skirt is too short you know you asked for it well you were wearing lipstick well you went jogging by yourself well you did exactly what and that's that's exactly the that's that's what I've started questioning like why am I feeling not uncomfortable because it's not uncomfortable but why do I feel a certain way about you doing this because I shouldn't because you're having an amazing time and you're just moving your body and having fun that's essentially your hang-ups about sex George probably it's definitely a me issue but I was I was like oh god this is a lot and and how did it make you feel I don't know just awkward made you feel awkward not awkward because we were at home but I think if say for instance a few weeks ago we were at a friend's house and Gigi was like the kids people we don't even know or she doesn't know that well they were all the girls were doing a show yeah and she's like I'm doing a solo oh brilliant and then we had to watch her do a solo she wasn't doing that kind of dancing during that solo but had she been I think I'd have been like oh god this is really awkward and the thing that's what it is I think I know that's coming like I know that's what's that'll be next so okay do you remember the podcast that we that we had when we had the beautiful kimberly wire on i do and it stayed with me quite a lot and those of you listening that haven't heard it go back and listen to it because she's talking about growing up in a world where dance was how she expressed all of her feelings and thoughts and it's how she processed everything in her life through dance and she was made to feel on countless occasions that by her moving in a certain way the connotations were sexual yeah and she was very much banging the drum that that's not what it was and that as women and as people we're able to we should be able to move our bodies and actually it's the person watching the dance that puts a name and sticks a post-it on it and says that's what that is and it's and actually I always think about that when for example Isla said to me the other day or mummy won't let me have my skirt taken up and it's really embarrassing and it's just above my knee and all the other girls wear a shorter skirt and I said right okay do you want me to talk to mommy or and she just said I just want to be able to be free and I want to be and it was really lovely to express myself and I want a short skirt and I thought yeah you should be able to wear a short skirt because if the other girls in the school are right so you know we had a chat and and she now has had her skirt taken up and she feels really confident but I think I never forget I I think I told this story on the podcast when I was at prep school and I was 12 and by this point I was actually the tallest girl in the class can you believe it I haven't grown since and I had um I had boobs you know I was developing I I snogged some boys at school so I was feeling quite confident but I definitely wasn't sexual yeah you know I was still a young woman young girl and I remember us we were allowed to go into the local village like once a week and we were walking across the playing fields and the head master opened his and I was in a pair of denim cut-off shorts my really cool jacket that said neighbors in the new world denim double denim and my dot martins but my shorts were short and he went sorry hardman get into my office now and he berated me saying that i was asking for trouble that i looked slutty that my shorts were too short that i would attract male attention that would be unwanted and that i needed to go and change and i thought in that moment i felt so small and so belittled i sort of vowed from that point to never be judged by what i was wearing and never let anybody else's issues be put onto me yeah i thought i carried a lot of shame around it you know do you know what it's really interesting with the dress code situation especially at school because when it's own clothes day at gg school they say no crop tops no shorts for girls and i think probably not before just before we had this chat but like you know i never really thought anything of it and now recently i've started to question that because i've thought to myself But that's what Gigi wears because she dances.

20:36She does gymnastics. So that is what she wears. It's sportswear for her. Cropped up in shorts is sportswear. And then when she goes to school, she's then not allowed to wear that. But why? Well, why do you think? But it's so odd. She's seven. But even if she was 17, whatever, it's sportswear. It's functional. The conversation is not with our young girls. It is with our young boys about respect. And this is what fucking pisses me off because I think those are the conversations that should be had, being had with young men to say, you do not make a woman feel uncomfortable. You do not catcall her.

21:17You do not make comments at her. And you're this whole like, oh, it's not every man. If I hear that one more time, I'm going to blow, I'm going to blow my lid because we should be able to wear whatever we want. We should be able to walk on the streets at night. We should be able to go for a jog when it's dark in the morning. it's not our problem it's I'm getting angry no but it's no it's so it's so true it really is she can't wear a crop top why because in case it's too what on the bottom she's seven the seven year old boys at school they're going to be offended by her belly button like what what are we doing and that's she wants to wear it because she wants to do cartwheels and you know backflips and all of that they all do they want to wear cartwheels in you know want to do cartwheels in the playground they want to do all of that like it's yeah I don't know it's really it's really odd And also the other thing is some girls will wear, you know, wear crop tops and shorts and they are more developed.

22:08And I think that's where they're saying, oh, I don't know if it's appropriate. But why? Again, we're like shaming girls to not show how their bodies are changing. Yeah. Or just wear what makes them feel comfortable fundamentally. You know, they're not looking at it, getting dressed and going, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll get my tits out today. So I get loads of attention from men. That's not, I can understand them being like, oh, no heels at school. yeah fine because you're in the playground and you're running around it's not not but cropped tops and shorts like that's not not that's not dangerous i know and that's why i don't know if you i never had parents i'll ask you the question who who ever shamed me for my outfits yeah i came out in some wild shit and i remember my dad almost like lifting his eyebrows but being like this is what makes her feel good she's safe she knows the rules no see i did that's really did what no my my parents were so strict with what i wore really yeah so i remember going to school disco and it was like with the boys school so we all went all the girls went over to the boys school for the school disco and i had different clothes in my bag got changed rebel to the disco and then my dad turned up early on the way home it's actually my dad who didn't who wouldn't grass me up to my mum in those situations because he didn't actually care like he would be buying me I don't know the shoes that I wanted and like those sorts of things where if my mum was the one who wouldn't let me have like short skirts or anything like that um it's quite weird I know I haven't actually ever really spoken to her about it so the situation is and I want to ask you this question if one of our daughters was wearing a skirt that was so short that her some of her bottom was hanging out actually because you know you've yeah I've seen it loads of times now that for me isn't about drawing male attention that's about a feeling of maybe oh I don't know what I'm saying here yeah no I no no no because I I would feel like that I would feel like that's not appropriate but why do I feel like that's not appropriate because it's not appropriate for her?

24:13Would she be comfortable with it? I'm not sure. God. I don't know. There was a situation as well maybe 10 years ago now in the office and one of the young girls came into the office and she had jeans on, a shirt open and a crop top underneath and we were all like that is not appropriate for the office. Because it's not. Yes. Yes. It's the same as that, I think. I think it is. It's like you can't walk down the road in a bikini. Like you can't. Or anyone can wear. But then men wear, men wear walk down the streets without their tops on. Yeah, but I hate that as well. No, I do as well, actually. I mean, that is the best.

24:54No, I do hate that. Yeah. But like, yeah, I think on the beat, I used to love sunbathing with my top. My was the best tops off bikini sunbather I have been known to sunbathe. Yeah, but that's different. I don't think that's inappropriate. I bloody loved it. And like when I say that to the kids, the kids are like, oh, gross. Mind that. No, no, they're gross now. They used to fucking bag him, mate. My nan used to sunbathe with me as a baby, my nan, in a thong bikini. Oh, good for your nan. I bloody love a thong bikini. I think maybe that is why I'm an ankles or wrists person. I think that's what it is.

25:26I'm not tits or laces. I'm ankles or wrists out, essentially, because my nan was the complete opposite. I think, and that's probably why my mum didn't like me. Do you know what? Oh, my God. We've unpacked it. I actually think we've unpacked it. I think that's what it was. I have never seen you in a pair of shorts. I wouldn't. What do you mean I wouldn't? I wouldn't wear them. Is that why you've always got your neck something up? I do not write. Never seen your boobs either, actually. I'm on, on, they're probably on ASOS. I search modesty fashion. Oh my God, are you fucking kidding me? You're literally like Handmaid's Tale.

25:58Georgia's in the Handmaid's Tale. Where's her bonnet? I actually do. Isn't that so weird? You do not. I need to go away and think about this lot. You've really, have we just unpicked something we really do? We really have. And now I've got a daughter who's going the opposite. It's like me and my mum were this generation of like covering up. And now Gigi's like the opposite, wants it all out. But I'm cool with that for her. Do you know what? I've just noticed something I've probably never articulated about you. Because I think your style is incredibly chic. But I always feel, and take this as a compliment, that ever since I've known you, you have dressed so much more mature than your years.

26:39Does that make sense? I think I always have. Like a very cool lady called, you know, Michaela, who lives in one of the home counties. And she's like very chic, quite unapproachable. I think I've always dressed like a 45-year-old. Oh, hang on a minute. I'm nearly 45. You've just dressed... I think I always have. Right. I can't think of a time when I haven't. Do you not roll your skirt up when you're a girl? yeah as a teenager yeah but as an adult i've never been like a no it's all high top no because i'm even thinking like no i'm just like you know you're going your camera roll in your head like even with nights out i used to wear like either wide leg like silky trousers and a nice top i would never do i never ever really wore short skirts ever have you seen what i have you seen what i wear in abeitha yes i have can we just have a hold of conversation i'm not saying that's right No, it is right.

27:35But I still now at the age of 44, nearly, nearly not quite, would wear, the joke is amongst the group, high-waisted shorts and a boob shoe. So I regularly, and my rave shoes, like if we're at DC 10 or we're going dancing, that's what I wear. I'm just like, fucking yes. But why not? That's fine. But you've always been like that. I have always been like that. That's what I'm saying. That's what I've always been like this. Yeah, but maybe I need to be more grown up and less slaggy. Oh my God. What the hell? Was this the place I didn't think this conversation was going to go? How fun would it be if you dressed me and I dressed you and then we made a reel on it?

28:12Okay. Yeah, right. We'll do it. That's fine. But I'm not wearing shorts. You fucking well are. You absolutely are. I'm not. High-waisted shorts. Really complex. Don't mind. I won't make you look tacky. Because that's what you're saying about my fashion. Okay, well, this is taking a turn. You're a busy start. We're about to go and have a fight. thank you so much for listening to today's podcast as always we love you gang as always we'd love you to rate, review, subscribe and give our podcast a follow and if you've got any feedback on this episode give us your opinions as well on the whole dressing situation we'd love to know drop us a DM on Instagram and we'll be back on Friday

29:01Hello everybody, I'm Natalie Cassidy and I have a podcast called Life With Nat and this week has been very special because I got to interview Andy Burnham the Prime Minister of the UK When I walked up that street for the first time to come into this place I knew that my dad was reaching the end of his journey and it was hard and I you know the coming together of those two things has made a hard what would have been a hard thing intensely hard at times listen wherever you get your podcasts and let me know what you think join our family life with Matt I hope you enjoy