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Mixed Signals Podcast Episode Notes
Episode Title
Alison Roman on Cookbooks, Food Influencers, and the Surprising Way AI is Changing Her Recipes
Episode Overview In this episode, host Max Tani and Semafor Editor-in-Chief Ben Smith discuss food media with Alison Roman, a renowned chef and author known for her viral recipes and her latest cookbook, "Something From Nothing." They explore the role of physical cookbooks in a digital landscape, the impact of AI on cooking, and Alison's journey through the world of food media.
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Key Discussions
- Introduction to Alison Roman
- Alison Roman gained fame as a food columnist for major publications and became a digital food star.
- Notable for her viral recipes and the infamous cancellation in 2020.
- Currently promoting her newest cookbook, "Something From Nothing," as an effort to move away from the internet's pressures.
- The Value of Physical Cookbooks
- Roman compares a physical cookbook to an album, emphasizing the storytelling aspect and collective experience.
- Key Points:
- Physical cookbooks provide a break from screen time.
- They become part of home decor and family heirlooms.
- Roman believes that cookbooks offer a deeper connection through splattered pages and personal experiences.
- The Intersection of Cooking and the Internet
- Roman expresses a desire to create something timeless in contrast to the fast-paced nature of digital media.
- She critiques the overwhelming saturation of cooking content online and the loss of individuality in recipes.
- Her latest cookbook feels as if it could exist outside the digital age.
- The Impact of AI on Recipes
- Roman is skeptical of AI's role in cooking, viewing cooking as a deeply personal and hands-on activity.
- She discusses a humorous experiment with AI generating recipes in her style, highlighting the limitations of AI in capturing the essence of cooking.
- Evolution of Food Media
- Roman reflects on the changes in food media since her early career, noting the shift from traditional print to digital platforms.
- She discusses the challenges of standing out in an increasingly saturated market where anyone can become a "food influencer."
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Key Takeaways
- Cookbooks vs. Digital Recipes:
- The significance of physical cookbooks lies in their tangible and emotional value, contrasting with the transient nature of online recipes.
- Personal Connection to Cooking:
- Cooking is portrayed as an art form that requires a personal touch, making AI-generated recipes feel inadequate.
- Navigating Fame and Authenticity:
- Roman emphasizes the importance of maintaining authenticity in her brand and the creative challenges posed by a crowded media landscape.
- Cultural Commentary:
- The episode touches on how the internet has reshaped food media and cooking culture, making it more challenging to be unique.
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Conclusion This episode offers an insightful look into Alison Roman's journey in the world of food media, her thoughts on the evolving landscape of cooking, and the value she places on physical cookbooks. Roman's perspective serves as a reminder of the importance of authenticity and the personal connection that cooking can foster, standing in contrast to the rapid, often impersonal nature of digital content.
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Additional Resources
- Alison Roman's Cookbook: *Something From Nothing*
- Follow Semafor Media on X: [@semaforben](https://x.com/semaforben) and [@maxwelltani](https://x.com/maxwelltani)
- Subscribe to Semafor’s Sunday Newsletter: [Sign Up Here](https://www.semafor.com/newsletters/media)
Feedback
For tips or comments, email
mixedsignals@semafor.com
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*These notes encapsulate the key themes and insights from the podcast episode, making it easy to dissect and reflect on the discussions surrounding food media, technology, and personal identity.*
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:07Welcome to another episode of the Mixed Signals podcast from us here at Semaphore media. I am Max Taney. I'm the media editor of Semaphore, and with me as always is our editor-in-chief, Ben Smith. How's it going, Ben? It's good, Max. I'm very excited today. Yeah, I'm excited too. I mean, look, we always say that before these episodes, but we've got a really great guest. Our guest this week is the author and chef, Alison Roman. Alison has a new cookbook called Something from Nothing. We'll ask her about the new book, the value of physical media in today's vastly oversaturated digital media landscape, and we'll talk to her a little bit about how AI is already changing the way that she thinks about her recipes.
0:52Yeah, I think Alison, I guess, I suppose like all of us has had a very intense and complicated relationship with the internet over the last decade and is, you know, has channeled some of that or reacted against some of that in this very beautiful physical cookbook. Well, we will dig into it with Alison right after the break.
1:15Hey, Mixed Signals listeners. There's a new podcast we thought you'd enjoy. It's called Frontier CMO, hosted by our friend Josh Spanier, Google's VP of Marketing. It's about the forces driving innovation and reshaping the marketing landscape today. Whether it's AI's impact on the industry or creator's role in culture, Josh is getting into the weeds with the people who are actually shaping what's next. These are your notes from the frontier. You'll hear from CMOs, agency legends, brand visionaries, and brilliant thinkers. Search for Frontier CMO from Think with Google wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.
1:57So, Ben, you're a pretty busy guy, I've noticed. You don't strike me as the type to be heading home after a long day and cracking open a cookbook and cooking. Are you a cook? I guess I don't really know that about you. Do you make food? You know, I make stuff for my kids, but it's just like throw eggs in pan, throw meat in pan. If I need a recipe, I just Google like how to cook a steak and then use the first recipe. Are you good when you set your mind to it? Or is it just like, even if you do that, it's just not happening for you? No, because like, I mean, my mom always said to me, if you can read, you can cook.
2:34She didn't really cook either. But like, but I can't really read either. I'm like terrible following instructions. so no i'm like i'm not a particularly good cook but i'm good at multitasking so i can like i can edit i can do a mediocre job editing an article talk on the phone and make a bad meal at the same time okay and you know cooking does actually require some multitasking as well it's actually the thing that i am the worst at during cooking is like while something is on you got to go and do something else essentially i'm terrible at that process but um someone who is a lot better than both of us, clearly, at cooking is our guest on the show today.
3:09And it's Alison Roman, who was famously the food columnist for the New York Times, made recipes for Bon Appetit, and these days is just quite regularly famous in her own right. She has a line of cookbooks, the most recent of which is out this fall. She's got a grocery store upstate. So Ben, you actually worked with her at various points, or at least you crossed over her at a few different points. You were both at The Times at the same moment, and you were both at BuzzFeed. You were running BuzzFeed News at a moment where she was working in-house as well. So you know Allison a little bit. Yeah.
3:44We hired her at BuzzFeed, I believe, in 2017 when she was kind of the internet's favorite chef. She was this viral sensation. And she and a couple of her colleagues were trying to figure out how to do really high-quality food media at the same time that a lot of what we were doing at BuzzFeed was not really producing instructions on making food, but producing, you know, mesmerizing videos of melted cheese. And in some sense, that arm, the content arm, beat out the recipe arm. It was a very bitter and semi-forgotten, except by me, period of media history. And she then went to the Times where she became just, you know, just a huge star.
4:18And it's really, really interesting, too, as you say that, because, you know, one thing that strikes me about some of her recipes is they're not necessarily the most, like, aesthetically appealing, but they just are delicious. I've cooked so many of them. I Thanksgiving and I cooked one of her prime rib roasts for Christmas one year. But of course, she also kind of infamously got hugely famous while at the New York Times, particularly during the beginning stages of the pandemic before getting caught up in a kind of a strange and in retrospect, kind of, at least in my view, a little bit of a silly controversy in which she criticized Chrissy Teigen and Marie Kondo saying that they were selling out.
4:57But the results of that was she ended up having kind of this interesting arc where she left the Times, essentially, you know, was kind of quote unquote canceled, then kind of struck out on her own as an independent creator, was relatively early on Substack, created her own YouTube show, and has since then produced a series of cookbooks, the latest of which is a little bit of a kind of reintroduction into food media. So I'm really curious to see what she wants to do next and how she's navigating kind of reintroducing herself. Yeah, you know, it's funny, as you say it, I realized she was in some ways ahead of the curve in terms of like a shift toward quality and authority and away from pure kind of viral content.
5:35She was ahead of us at BuzzFeed, basically, in that way, and now has pivoted to a small brick and mortar store and a book. So maybe that's where we're all headed. Exactly. Well, Allison is waiting for us, so why don't we bring her on? Allison, thanks so much for being here. We're extremely happy to have you. Um, I, uh, as preparation for this episode, uh, I cooked one of the recipes, actually cooked two of the recipes from your new cookbook. I still have some, uh, turmeric on my hands from last night. It's not coming out. Classic. Yeah, exactly. You know, in your view, what is a cookbook for in kind of the age when you can get a recipe from TikTok or amazing recipes from the kind of New York times app?
6:18What do you see as the value of a physical cookbook? God, if I don't ask myself that every day. I feel like to me, it is like a single versus an album or something. Like, I think that there is something still so valuable in a collection, even in like, I don't know, like storytelling capacity where it's like you read a short story in The New Yorker, you like what they write, you're going to buy their book because you want to read more of that or you want to, you know, see through their eyes what like a collection looks like. Things that are a collection of something, be it a recipe or a story or, you know, songs are meant to be, I think, enjoyed together.
6:57Like there's a story, there's a purpose, there's a theme, there's like something behind it that has like compelled a person to put them together. Not just like an arbitrary grouping of things that exist on the internet. And I think also for me, I've asked a lot of people and I think a lot of people prefer to sort of treat cooking as like a time away from their phone. And I mean, ironically, food and cooking content is so popular on the internet that like people just kind of their eyes glaze over and they sit on the couch and they're just like, what did I even just watch? Like, I'm never cooking any of that, but it's like something they ingest.
7:30And a cookbook is something that they open to read and spend time with and then, you know, potentially cook the recipe and like you splatter the pages and like it sits on their shelf and it becomes a part of their home decor. And it's like, not to be dramatic and use the word like family heirloom, but there are, I think, you know, books, I think if you grew up with parents who cooked or family members who cooked, it's like, oh yeah, that's the book my mom used, or that's the book my parents used, or that's like the thing that I grew up eating or whatever. There's like, I don't know, it has like a weightiness to it that I just don't think that the internet has.
8:03Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that just in reading through the book in preparation for this. I did feel like, wow, this is a book, even though your career was shaped by the internet, you grew up on the internet, but this book reads as though the internet never existed. Oh, thank you. Yeah, and I wonder, like, just to sort of play that out when you talk about it being away from the internet, is there anything about this book in particular about the kind of food, the kind of photography that you thought of as an antidote to digital media in some way? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, try as I might, like, I cannot ignore digital media.
8:35It's a part of my life. It's a part of all of our lives. It's not going anywhere. It is what it is. But I think aesthetically, if I had a choice to live in a world without it, I would. I think that like the access to everything, the access to like any font, any visual identity, any brand identity, like you can just kind of pick a personality based on what already exists out there. Like very few people are operating in a vacuum from like a pure creative perspective. Those people do exist, of course, but I think now it's just so much easier to be like, oh, I like that. I like that. you look at a mood board, it's 40 things you've already seen.
9:09And then you kind of make something that is a smash of all of those things into a new thing. And like, that to me feels very digital and very like of today. And I wanted to make something that felt like it could have been published in like the 60s or the 90s or in 20 years from now. And whether that's like, you know, we used a lot of film photography, I feel like I'm using like serif fonts, I the pages are not white, they're cream. You know, those were all really intentional choices, not to make it look like you'll be cookbook. Like I'm not trying to fool anyone into thinking that like we're going back in time, but I do sort of crave like a sort of timeless visual identity to accompany what I perceive to be, or I hope are like timeless recipes.
9:52Like I'm pretty trend agnostic when I cook and I always have been, and I've been cooking now professionally for 20 years, basically. And in media for half that time, more than half that time. It's funny that you say that, though, because, of course, like you are kind of responsible in some ways for like the trendy kind of online digital recipes, right? Like everybody, you know, knows about like, I mean, you know which ones I would mention. The shallot pasta, right? Like the various various cookies, things like that. It's interesting. I mean, have you always felt that way? I mean, did you feel the way that you feel now at the moment when those, you know, recipes were just going insanely viral.
10:32I mean, did you feel that way then? It was sort of a novelty at that point because so my first book came out in 2017 and that was Instagram did exist, but it was definitely like for personal use. People were posting pictures, like poorly lit pictures of their cats and like a tree at night. They'd be like, cool. Like there was no sort of like personal brand energy behind Instagram. And it was sort of before even like, like I worked at Bon Appetit at the time and they didn't even have an Instagram because they were like, well, that's for people and that's the internet. And it was before, you know, everybody, every company, every corporation, every whatever adopted the fact that like, okay, well, if you're going to exist in the world, like you also have to exist on the outside.
11:15Like, and I'm not saying you have to, I know a lot of people that are not on Instagram and they're thriving, but I think like it was just more where we're at from 2017 to now is shocking. And no one was really using Instagram as a way to sort of like spread information or build a brand in the way that they are today. People, there were like definitely early adopter influencer types, but it was seen as like an other, like, oh, well, they're an influencer or they're internet people. We're now, we're just like, we're all people and we all have an Instagram and we're all a brand and it's sort of all part of the same soup.
11:47So like at the time I wasn't allergic to it or I didn't have a feeling about it because it was so new. It hadn't happened to me before and I hadn't seen it happen to anyone else. So I was just like, this is wild. Like, okay. Like this, this felt new to me and to everyone else, which is also, I think, part of why it was such a big deal at the time because people hadn't seen it. And, you know, this is now my fourth cookbook and people will be like, what's the viral recipe? I was like, there won't be one because there can't be one because those recipes, it just doesn't happen anymore because everyone's famous, nothing's famous.
12:20The saturation level is too intense. Like it's really easy to get a reservation or it's really easy to get a seat at a restaurant when you walk in at five 30 on a Friday, on a Tuesday. But when you walk in at eight o 'clock on a Saturday, you're not getting a table. You know what I mean? It's kind of like that. When you look at just to sort of make this literal, when you, you know, when you open something from nothing, is there like, is there a specific recipe in there you think of as like, this one is the real antithesis of the internet? um the real antithesis of the internet not necessarily I mean it's like a bunch of soups it's very like it's giving like old lady in the woods with a cauldron and you know I think that for me I'm a writer and I'm a cook and those are two professions that if we if the internet died tomorrow and we didn't have electricity I could still do both those things I could find a way to cook and I could find a way to write.
13:12And I am into that. Not to say that I would be like successful or anything, but I could continue my creative pursuits. I could continue to sort of do what I do without that as part of it. And I think that there's like nothing more primitive than cooking. And so to me, that is, it's already the antithesis of the internet. Like by virtue of the fact that you're like cutting a vegetable that grew in the earth and you're heating it with fire and you know you're simmering it with water like it's pretty basic primitive actions that like don't require the internet to exist so i'd say the whole book then so one thing this is obviously a media show so many of our listeners are clearly freaks uh you know for this kind of stuff obviously many of them know for you from your time the new york times and we're following of course you know the whole saga that happened afterwards.
14:04You've talked about that plenty. It's five years ago. Yeah. I look at the New York Times Instagram now and it's right. And it seems to me like they are just like minting food stars left and right, like in a way that it wasn't even necessarily the case then. I feel like in some ways were you kind of like the crash test dummy for this new kind of weird star model as they were kind of making this transition from just like we are the New York Times and everybody does what we say to, you know, we have to acknowledge that people want to follow personalities and they want to know more about these people's lives.
14:38Yeah. I mean, how many people do you think from the New York Times are listening to this? Like, what? I'm just kidding. Honestly, I get so - A bunch. I'd say a bunch. Yeah. I get so nervous talking about it because I'm like truly still living in fear that like something horrible is going to happen to me if I misspeak about them. But this isn't like a shit talking session. It's more just my, my opinion is that at the time that wasn't their goal. Their, their goal wasn't to like make anyone necessarily a star. And I think that, I think actually they sort of begrudged the fact that that was what I became.
15:11And I think what happened could only have happened to me if I had achieved a certain level of notoriety or success or whatever, because enough people knew, knew my name. Right. And so I think that that was, it feels like from other people that I speak to at the Times that have worked there in the past, continue to work there, it's sort of like a don't get too famous energy. Or like if there's somebody that outshines the Times as a whole, feels complicated for them, because it is also difficult to control. It's a really interesting place. I mean, yeah, it's so funny because I worked there, quote unquote, but I was freelance.
15:49I worked from home. I had a great relationship with my editor at the time. We would speak. I shot everything in my home with the team that I hired. And it was sort of like I would be able to like submit recipes and images and we would have the back and forth with the editor. And that was great. And it was like a really nice relationship. Until it wasn't. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I do think, Allison, that you were like a, you were sort of, you were ahead of that curve of them realizing, like, what is it to have stars if you have these individuals who are out there representing you? and then they get attacked, I think part of being able to have stars is that you have to defend them.
16:25And they certainly didn't do that. Yeah, I felt that big time, for sure. I think that it was very easy for them to sort of capitalize on a lot of my success. But when it came to sort of looking at what that brought upon whatever, in any capacity, and I'm more speaking about the role of like recipes and you know and people's feelings about that or yeah it's sort of like are we a team are we not a team am I am I a part of the team am I not a part of the team and I think like I didn't have like any sort of interest in like fighting that or fighting them when it was like because I was so embarrassed also I was like well I fucked up and I'm embarrassed I didn't I it wasn't like it wasn't the time for me to be like well I'm gonna like defend myself and fight for this like I just wanted to go into a hole and disappear forever.
17:18The vibe was not like, I'm going to seek justice here. So I kind of just let it lie and preferred to let it lie forever until today when you asked me about it. So thank you, Matt. You had one other just super weird experience in digital media that I also wanted to ask you about, which is you made a show for CNN +, the doomed digital CNN, that I think, as far as I know, was never released. And I'm just curious, like, what that experience was like, what you kind of what you took away from it. Yeah, it was really tough to do because I so basically I sold a show to CNN Plus and it was like six episodes, 30 minutes.
17:58And then right when CNN Plus was like shut down before it even took off, they were like, we're going to save the show and we're moving into CNN because we believe in it and we believe in you and we think it's great. I was like, great. So we're like, keep filming. We were like in the middle of production. We kept filming, you know, instead of six 30 minute episodes, it became two seasons of four episodes, 60 minutes each. Like it like, you know, grew effectively and like they wanted more. And it was like, okay, we're going to have this show. And then when we were in Vietnam shooting the last of the four episodes for the second season, and we got a call that they were shutting down all original programming for CNN.
18:38And it was like, boy, was Stanley Tucci mad, you know? It was so frustrating and upsetting, but it was so not personal. Like, it wasn't like they shut down my show specifically. They shut down all the shows. And the Stanley Tucci show was so successful and so beloved. And I was like, well, if they're getting rid of that, like, yeah, they're probably gonna get rid of that. of mine too, you know? Um, so it was really frustrating because I had spent basically a year of my life making this show. And that meant putting other projects on hold, saying no to other projects, um, maybe not investing in myself as much because I had sort of, you know, I like put my YouTube channel on hold and it was like, well, I'm going to have this TV show, which is the thing that I always wanted.
19:21And then to have that come so close and then not happen, you're just like, okay. But, you know, ask anyone in TV that happens to them often. It's just, it sucks. It sucks no matter how many times it happens to you. Is that thing like sitting on a shelf somewhere? Like I'd watch it. We got a bunch of executives listening. Maybe somebody should release it. Yeah, somebody should buy it. I mean, it does exist. It's such a long story and I don't want know the like ins and outs but the production company that i was working with 0.0 did buy it back from cnn because they're like we're gonna sell it and like we believe in the show we want it out there and then very shortly after i think like they tried to sell it no nobody wanted to buy like basically what was a cnn show because it was in the can as it were which means it was like fully edited like ready to air and that means that it had gone through quite a bit of edits to sort of suit the CNN aesthetic and be a CNN show, which is, has like a definitive look and vibe and style that is like perhaps different than an Amazon show or a Hulu show or whatever.
20:24And it seems like most people, if they're going to make an original program, they really want it to feel like them. So if it's like an Amazon original series or a Hulu original series, they're like, what's a Hulu? Like what's an Amazon? Like they want it to feel like them and they want to have their mark on it. And it feels like this is probably a CNN show, right? That they're like, well. It's so funny that you say that because I spent a couple years writing about media and I consume a fair amount of TV and I could not tell you what an Amazon Prime food show is supposed to look like. I have no idea what the, but even though I realized those executives spend so much time thinking about it.
20:58So they just ought to put your show up. I want to watch it. I think also there's a lot of fear around cooking shows and food shows. People are pretty, it seems like there's like, people seem a little like nervous to break the mold. And it was, I mean, it was, I thought it was a great show. It was, it had cooking and had travel. It was like, to me, like very educational, which like I value still. I think it's really cool. Like it wasn't a competition show and it wasn't sort of just like a talk show. It was, it had like a lot going on, but yeah. All to say that like it got bought by someone else and like it's sitting somewhere.
21:31Funny business. Yeah. Well, we have a lot more that we want to get to with Alison Roman, but we have to take a short break, so we'll be right back after this.
21:48In this week's branded segment from Think with Google, I spoke with Google's VP of Marketing, Josh Spanier, about what he saw at CES. So Josh, you were at CES at the beginning of this year. Why does that event matter for CMOs? So CES gives us a real view into how people are going to be living their lives and spending their money in two, five, even 10 years time. I know from the outside, it looks like a giant toy show. There's smart rings and foldable laundry robots and flying cars. But I was chatting with Shelley Palmer, who I interviewed for my new podcast. He's an AI visionary and tech leader.
22:27And he swears by, and I agree with him, that the ability to see patterns amongst all the gadget is actually really, really compelling for near term and into the future. So what'd you learn from that conversation? Well, the gadgets aren't really the thing. Stuff gets announced, some of it launches, some of it doesn't launch. What you're really looking for are business model changes, the new paradigms that are emerging. So two that I saw and we spoke about, one is around agentic commerce. Google announced during CES and just after CES, a whole bunch of partnerships with Shopify, with Walmart, with Target around agentic commerce.
23:05Super interesting building the new protocols for machines doing the shopping for you where appropriate. And then separately, I also saw a lot of expansion of what you might call intelligent ecosystems. These are technologies from different companies coming together, meshing together to enable you to do more interesting and engaging things. And again, with Google and Gemini leading the way. They're really fascinating forerunners of where we're all going to be in the near and medium term. And where can people listen to the whole thing? You can listen to my conversation with Shelley Palmer in my new podcast, Frontier CMO, on YouTube or wherever you download podcasts, or you can sign up for my weekly newsletter over on LinkedIn.
23:48Great. Thanks, Josh.
24:02people know you obviously uh you're very well known kind of in this world but how do you feel kind of being you know out there in the soup with the rest of like food influencers people who make recipes online how do you kind of distinguish yourself from uh you know from some of those folks because it does seem like you know when you had your perch at the new york times and at other places like the platforms also gave you an authority that you know, some random guy who goes viral all the time on TikTok doesn't. How do you kind of like try to distinguish yourself from from other food influencers?
24:33Yeah, that's a good question. And I think I still struggle to like properly answer that to myself. But I think that for me, again, I try to remain like trend agnostic. I try to be the same person like on camera, off camera that I was five years ago that I am today. And like stay the course, which to me is like I teach people how to cook and I write about it. And I think both of those things in the way that I do them have evolved as I've evolved, but like, that's the core of who I am and what I do and kind of keeping blinders on a bit as like trends come and go. And it's like, I still don't have a tech talk.
Read the full transcript
25:07Is that stupid? Maybe some people would probably say that it is, but I'm okay with that. And for me, I hope to have like an extremely long career where people know who I am forever. in the context of teaching them how to cook. Like, I don't need to be a famous person. I want to be famous if you really care about cooking, you know? And I think that that is the impact that I strive for. And I think that it's really easy to lose sight of that when everybody now like has like a this and a that and they do this and they're like a celebrity. And it's like, it's very tempting too. And you wonder like if you're gonna be a failure if you don't do all that.
25:44But it's so cheesy to be like, be yourself. But I think that that is like truly, That's the advice that I give to people. If they're like, I want to do food videos, how do I stand out? I really feel for people that are getting their start now to be like, how do I stand out? Because it is deeply saturated. You were saying a few minutes ago, you know, that one of the big differences between when you kind of started and and now is just kind of like, you know, some of the places that you work like Bon Appetit didn't even have like an Instagram. Is that the biggest difference between kind of food media and like cooking then and now?
26:20Is it kind of like the the emergence of this kind of stuff on the platforms like Instagram and TikTok or is it something else? it's really hard to say um it's so funny that like I mean when I started cooking we didn't like the iPhone didn't exist right like I started cooking because I loved cooking and I wanted to be a cook in a restaurant it wasn't for some ulterior motive of like being famous or being on TV or having like a brand like I was just like I love cooking and I want to do it for the rest of my life and I want to be really good at it that was sort of it and you know as other things come into play it's like okay well Instagram's now okay I guess now I have an Instagram and then that becomes successful it's like but i'm am i an influencer like i don't think so i'm not an instagrammer like but i have an instagram and i don't know i think like to the personal level it became especially post-pandemic it became a lot more easy for people to sort of like not work at a restaurant and not work at the new york times and not have a job in traditional media and just be like i quit my job doing you know finance and now i make pasta on tiktok and I make a lot of money on brand deals.
27:24Like food media now is sort of like, it sort of did crumble in the traditional sense. When I first started at Bon Appetit, there were like, you know, we'd have these meetings on like other magazines, what was on their cover? What did they do the months before? You know, you're like looking at your competition as it were and the landscape around. And there were like at least 10 magazines you could point to, to be like, okay, well, they had this on their cover, they had a turkey, they had a, you know, whatever. There's, there aren't any now. There's what, like two, three, like it's pretty wild. And that's not that long of a period of time.
27:56And that can be said for fashion, for men's fashion, for women's fashion. And I used to think that I could only succeed if I worked at the best restaurants, if I worked at the best food magazines, if I had a column at the New York times. Now you don't need to do any of that to be successful. If you want us to do what I do. Speaking of some of the, you know, the kind of like hollowing out of some of these food media institutions and kind of the way this the changes in the way that ecosystem works. I'm curious, like, what's kind of inspiring you, at least in the kind of food media sense? Like, what are you watching and reading to get ideas?
28:29Or who do you see out there that you're like, oh, they're doing something that's that's really interesting? My favorite YouTube channel is, I'm gonna forget the name, obviously, but it's called like, my simple farm life or like simple country life or something. And it's just a woman who lives in a beautiful countryside and she's older and she makes like 20 gallons of strawberry jam at a time. And there's no talking and there's no music. And it's really peaceful. My friend Kate turned me on to it as she watches it as like basically taking Xanax. For me, like I feel more hyper inspired by like a very stripped down approach to pretty much everything.
29:06And that like is reflected it in this book that I just made. And I think generally in the food that I cook, but also in sort of this like aesthetic direction. And I feel very lucky to have had the opportunity to sort of begin my career online. I'm doing quotation marks if you can't see me. My career online by being like in my late 20s, my early 30s and being like, hey guys, and being super enthusiastic. It was very dance like no one's watching because no one was watching. And so I was really able to just kind of like be myself and kind of come of age in this way and find my voice and find myself.
29:44And like, now I'm sort of like, I'm not feeling very, Hey guys, I'm feeling very candlelight, a quiet time. I feel fortunate that I've built my career up to this point that I can maybe afford to do that because I don't know if that's like, I'm going to like, you know, break the internet anytime soon to have a more quiet approach. But that to me is what I'm gravitating towards. And I do think that trends are cyclical. And I think that we will have like a return to minimalism and we'll have a return to sort of like simplicity. And that's where I feel inspired right now. That sounds sort of like kind of adjacent to trad sort of politics culture.
30:22Did you find yourself wandering into that part of the internet? Only as a voyeur, only as like a what's going on here. I find it fascinating because it is sort of like it's equal parts survivalism and and food related but it's like it's so funny because like well while i do want like a more quiet like home homey approach for like my personal life and i suppose professional i'm never gonna make my own butter i'm simply never gonna do that but it's also kind of anti-feminist right in like this very basic way right now i think some of this i don't know if i would call it anti-feminist i think that that's like pretty, you could call it that if it weren't for the fact that they themselves are earning the money by exploiting whatever it is that could be perceived as anti-feminist.
31:09Like getting back into the kitchen, like wearing a pinafore, like squeezing a cow or whatever. You're like, wow, that's so reductive. But they're like, yeah, I'm making so much money by showing you this. Like, you know what I mean? I think it's kind of like, I don't know, is it? It's interesting. Yeah. Although I did notice, I was listening to you on another podcast and you were talking about how you were using tallow for more stuff, which is obviously, you know, we had the very surreal moment where like RFK Jr. was like going to steak and shake and talking about how great it was that they were using beef tallow in their fries and while he's like drinking a soda and shit like that.
31:40That is so nuts. Well, first of all, I will say that I use tallow as a moisturizer because it's your skin. And when I was pregnant, I was using a lot of things that didn't have fragrance because I became really sensitive to fragrance, which is I don't need to bore you with my whole woes of first trimester nausea, but it's not like a health thing though. Right. This is not a part of the ma back to the land type of thing. No, this is not. Yeah. I'm kind of curious, you know, you mentioned that you've changed in terms of the things that you're interested in, the demeanor, kind of what you're putting out there into the world.
32:15But how has that changed your cooking? You were talking a little bit about simplicity, but do you find that you're moving away from certain ingredients? How How would you say that your cooking has changed in the time that you've been in the public spotlight? Yeah. I mean, what's funny about cooking in general is that there's a finite number of ingredients that you can choose from. Like I cook with kale today. I cooked with kale 20 years ago. I'll cook with kale in 20 years from now. So, you know, there's only so many things that you can like reinvent in terms of like the basic ingredients that you have access to.
32:49And I'm still the same person in terms of like, I'm not going to churn my own butter then and I'm not now and I probably won't. There's certain things where I'm like, in 2017, I was like, I don't really care for rice that much because I'd rather eat a bowl of farro or whatever. And now, like two years ago, I was like, I can't get enough of rice. I just like couldn't stop eating it. And so there's like ingredients that you kind of fall back in love with, fall out of love with, fall into favor with. But like at the core, I think any recipe in any of my books could be interchangeable in a way, right?
33:21Where like nothing fancy. My second book was sort of geared towards having people over and like this is what you cook for company. But I know a lot of people that use that book is like what they make on Tuesday for just like their family. Or this new book has several things where you're like, yeah, that is sort of a bare bones ingredient list and like minimal hands-on cooking time. But it's still beautiful and impressive. And I'm going to serve it for Saturday night when I have people over. Do you ever see the impact of your recipes and your cooking out there in the world? Do you ever sit down at a restaurant and you're like, that's a lot like something that I know that people have seen, for example?
33:57yeah i've seen that before i've had that feeling before i think that's like and then you're like am i an egomaniac to think that that is i'm the only person who's ever thought to blah blah blah um but sometimes you're like you know your children sometimes also like recipes on the internet you're like that's me you just use this ingredient instead of that or whatever and you can't copyright a recipe and that really used to bother me i used to be i think like originality and creativity is really important to me. And in academia, we really, we really, really care, right? Like plagiarism is about the worst thing you could be accused of.
34:34But in creativity, plagiarism is rampant and people don't really seem to mind because it's sort of like, can you really own a vibe? Can you really own an idea? And it's kind of like, well, no. And I think when I was much younger, much younger, I just turned 40. So like everything like last year was much younger to me. But I think that it used to bother me a lot more than it does now. And now you're just kind of like, it's all out there. And as soon as you put your ideas on the internet, as soon as you post something on Instagram, as soon as it's like in the world, someone's probably going to take it and do something with it.
35:07And that goes for everybody creating anything. Increasingly, not just someone, but something, right? I mean, I'm like the world's worst chef, and I definitely am in the kitchen being like telling ChatGPT that I have like two zucchinis, and egg and a sausage and like some soy sauce and what should I do? And I'm curious if you play with AI, if you've ever used AI recipes or see what it suggests, or is that like the antithesis of your vibe? I feel like you could answer that for yourself, but I will confirm what you probably already think. Yes, that is the antithesis of my vibe. I will be like in a corner with a flame and a match and like a steel rod, like at the end of the world, because I refuse to like acclimate to the robots.
35:44Like I just, I'm so allergic to it. I think that AI can be so helpful for so many things in so many people's professions. I think when it comes to something that I take so personally, like cooking is a very like personal endeavor. It's creative, it's therapeutic, it's sensual. It's like, it's meant to be done with your hands, with like, I don't know, like it just feels like of the earth. And then to introduce a component where like you're gonna really introduce the opposite of whatever of the earth is, that feels so sacrilegious to me. But, you know, I'm not one of those people that's like, it's bad and terrible and we shouldn't explore it or use it at all.
36:19Like, I understand that it's here, it's happening. People are finding ways to make use of it in a way that makes their life easier and better. But like, also, Ben, if that's the kind of cook you are, like, I'm not going to change your mind. I'm not going to be like, no, but if you just free your mind and like, imagine the zucchini, it's like, no, you're going to be like, that's not who I am. So I can't change you and the other people that are doing that. And if it gets you cooking, then I'm like, okay, that's, I don't know what it is that you're cooking, but. Me either. Have you ever like, because plenty of your recipes are out there in places that chat GPT and stuff can crawl.
36:52Have you ever been like, make me an Alison Roman style thing of X, Y, Z and see kind of what it spits out? Like basically the equivalent of Googling yourself? Yes. I've done that with friends just like as a pure social experiment. It's, it's so funny to me. And honestly, that is what, when I see that, I'm like, oh, I can never do that again. You probably won't notice this if you're not looking for it, but I am pretty sure with like 99 % certainty that there is no use of the word garlicky or lemony or anything E in my new book. Herbie. Herbie. There's a leafy Herbie salad, but that's it. But I used to do that a lot.
37:32And And I remember my editors being like, that's not really a word. Or like, can we really do that? And I'm like, well, that's what I feel like calling it. And here's why. And I can back it up. And there's a reason why I'm calling it that because there's garlic in it, but it's really garlicky in this way. Like, I really think about my recipe titles and I'm very, very specific about how I name them and why I name them what I do. And then it just became like totally the norm. And like, everything's garlicky. Everything's lemony. Everything. And I'm like, is it really lemony? I look at the ingredient list.
37:59I'm like, there's like half a lemon zest in this recipe. That's not that lemony. I'm going to tell you right now. There's not enough lemon to call that recipe lemony. And so I was like, you know what? Enough. And so this new book has none of that because I was just like, I can't continue to participate in that. Anyway, so the AI thing, it did that. It was like, Alison Romney would make you a this and it will have lemon in it and she'll probably use the whole thing. And I was just like, oh my God, this is so terrifying. But it makes me want to be like, well, I have to change. Like I can no longer use the whole lemon.
38:28Like if AI is on to me and I'm so predictable and I'm like repeating myself, then I need to evolve. I need to change. I need to like come up with something different. I don't like being predictable and I don't like being that way. And I also asked it to generate an Alison Roman cookbook cover. and it was like I think it was it was really pulling from nothing fancy where I'm holding a chicken but it was my actual hands with like my actual wedding ring and this color nails which are like a you know orangey red and but instead of a cooked chicken I'm holding a live chicken like it fucked up to get my hands so accurate my wedding ring so accurate but yet I'm holding a live chicken like because you know anyway so they're not really going to be able to as of today duplicate me and what I make, but it's getting close.
39:16But it's interesting, though, that you, you know, that it seems like both the AI funhouse mirror of you and also just kind of the blatant social media ripoffs are things that are kind of pushing you to be more creative, it seems like. And in some ways, too, it's like, look, you've reached, you know, the apex of, you know, what many people would consider to be like the top of this kind of career. And I think about it with like, great pro athletes where they're like, okay, once you've done that, what's going to push you to kind of the next thing. And it seems like part of it is just like trying to outrun kind of both of the hacks and also, you know, whatever the machine is generating for Ben to cook with two zucchinis.
39:52Exactly. And eventually if Ben will say, what would Alison Roman do with two zucchinis and a sausage and an egg? And now we're talking, but I think like it becomes increasingly challenging. And I think with this book, especially I, I struggled because I put so much content out on the internet for my newsletter and to like, you know, sustain the cadence of like YouTube videos and all that stuff. And then when it came time to write another book, I was like, well, am I like run dry? But then I was like, no, there's a lot of recipes that I've published that like belong in a book actually. So there's like, you know, some recipes in this new book that are like shallot passes in this book and like crushed olive chicken is in this book because otherwise the final resting place becomes the internet and not everybody who, especially people that love cooking are like wanting to go online to like find that recipe or like sometimes they are, but they still want the collection.
40:42They still want to like read about it. They still want to see, like hold the pages. They still like, to me, it's like putting those recipes on a different pedestal. There's a lot of recipes I've made in the last four years that definitely did not make it into this book because they didn't, they didn't suit the narrative and they didn't belong in this specific collection. But like to answer, I guess, your first question of like, why a cookbook now? And like, what does it even mean? But I do think like, books are valuable. And like, they occupy a different space in our brain in our homes, than just things that you can read online.
41:16A great place for us to end. The last question that we have for you is, you know, I was listening to another interview that you were doing, and you were kind of talking about how, you know, you're really proud of where you've kind of gotten to. And, you know, the comments that you had kind of made that got people so angry were partially about this idea of like not wanting to necessarily sell out. And so I imagine that you've gotten a lot of kind of crazy offers and stuff. Really curious, like, what are some things that you've turned down? What's like the craziest stuff that you've turned down?
41:47God, I don't even know if I can say, but I yeah, I turn a lot of stuff down. I think that for me to say yes to something. I mean, listen, I've said yes to certain like sponsored things that like, was my heart a hundred percent in it? No. Was the money great? Yes. And I'm like, you know what? I had a baby. Like I, that shit is not cheap. And like, I have to like take some time off and like, yeah. Okay. So I'm making these calculations based on that as well. But I'm pretty proud of myself in that most of the time I can say with like complete honesty that I say yes to things. If it's like a product I believe in or a thing that I believe in, something that I think should really exist.
42:23There was a company that I was approached by that like the creative was just way off. And I was just like, that's not me. And they wanted me to like say and do things that weren't me. And I think people are really smart at this point. At least I like to think they are. And I also think that I've worked way too hard to earn people's trust and to like build myself and present as like myself and pretty authentic so that when I say you can eat the whole lemon you trust me or when I say something you trust me and to like ruin that trust over like what is considered a lot of money uh wasn't worth it to me um and also just like I know that when I make things that I don't believe in they are bad and I'm not proud of them and I think that I feel really protective of my creative work and integrity and I think that like more often than not, it's just like not worth it to risk jeopardizing that to like make something that's going to exist in the world that you don't believe in because people will start to notice also.
43:22Well, Alison, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you guys. Good luck keeping a step ahead of the robots. Thank you.
43:57and to transform your measurement. It's where you go to ensure your 2026 strategy isn't stuck in 2025. Don't just keep up. Stay ahead. Head over to thinkwithgoogle.com today.
44:17What did you think about Alison as, I guess, as a media figure, as well as a chef and cookbook author? You know, I thought it was really interesting the way that she clearly has thought through truly what is the value of a cookbook when like every single person I know is just mostly just using the New York Times cooking app and beyond just like looking nice in your house. Like, what value kind of does that have? And obviously, I think it's also something that she thinks can last in the world of AI, which I thought was, I thought that was my favorite part of the episode for sure. You know, she has, the ways in which AI and kind of machines have shaped the actual work that she is doing already is like totally fascinating.
45:02I don't know, Ben, what did you think? No, I think that's true. Like, it's probably true for a lot of us that in a way, like the game of staying ahead of the AI, of the stereotype of yourself, of the kind of like tired version of yourself. And, you know, the AI is hot on your trail and it's hard to just kind of keep reusing your old material. I think that's probably true for everybody. But I think that's a good, it's a good kind of prompt. Like, if you ask the AI, what's a Ben Smith column like? And it spits out something that is a lot like one of my columns, like, I better change what I'm writing.
45:29I better raise my game. That's right. I want to hear, I would like to see that to be clear. You said AI is actually pretty good at mimicking your voice. Oh, yeah, that's great. Yes, I may or may not have used it in certain very low stakes contexts, but never published. Sure, sure. But also, you know, it is interesting, right? Because like a lot of media starts out as a utility and a cookbook is like the ultimate utility. And now it's no longer, you would no longer buy a cookbook because you need to figure out how to cook a thing. It's become like a kind of source of entertainment, pride, a kind of objet d 'art, you know.
46:02And I think there is a kind of print that is kind of morphing into that. You heard that from Rula, I think, talking about FT Weekend. Like, whatever FT Weekend is, it's a little bit like what Nelson Roman Cookbook is, a little bit like what a magazine, like my favorite magazine, Racket, the kind of beautiful mat tennis magazine is. Print is having a kind of a revival up at the high end in a way that I think those cookbooks are part of. One of the things that I thought was also really interesting about what she was saying is how she seems to also be kind of a little bit at a crossroads and kind of thinking and grappling with like, what does it mean to be a food star at a time when the market is just so saturated, right?
46:41You not only have classic food TV, which is still churning out, you know, on the Food Network and to a certain degree on Bravo and on daytime TV, like plenty of food content, but also you just have every social media influencer trying to climb over each other to be relevant and in people's algorithmic feeds. You have the New York Times leaning more into its kind of personalities and some kind of stunt food recipe stuff. And I kind of sensed that as we were talking to her that she really is thinking about like, how do I continue to be creative, get good stuff out there and also build my career and continue to advance, you know, in the field of kind of food and cooking at a time when there is just so much competition for eyeballs?
47:25How do you stand out? Yeah, and in a moment when people believe that there's no longer any such thing as overexposure. You know, it's funny, we talked about what Chris Black, like I do think her instinct of, I love what she said about being, you know, being this woman in the woods with a cauldron, which is to say like she's a little less accessible. She's not living in public. She's not sharing everything. She's not on every platform. But that that does make her more valuable. And I do think she's onto something there that maybe we're maybe reaching the peak of the thing with the social media influencers stomping on each other's heads for attention.
47:56Like it's getting a little old. Well, but also that she was early. I mean, she said that, right? She was like, she benefited from being early as like a kind of digital media recipes person. And like, she kind of admitted like, how would I do that today? I don't really know. It's kind of impossible. But anyway, Ben, thanks for having her on. And thanks for getting me an early copy of the book. I cooked some of the recipes last night, not as well as Allison, of course. But I thought they were still pretty tasty, even with my handiwork. Yeah, it was nice to see Allison. It actually reminded me that she was sort of a management challenge back when we worked together just because she always knew exactly who she was.
48:32She wasn't really that interested in sort of adapting herself to whatever BuzzFeed was trying to be. And I think she's really found this real success in that. Well, that is it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening to the Mixed Signals podcast from us here at Semaphore Media. Our show is produced by Shina Ozaki with special thanks to Josh Billinson, Chad Lewis, Rachel Oppenheim, Anna Pizzino, Garrett Wiley, Jules Zern, and Tori Kaur. Our engineer is Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Billy Libby. Our public editor this week is Sam Altman. Sam, you already changed and edited Allison's recipes.
49:13It's crazy. Can I add another special thanks to Josh Billinson, who's the reason that you can see Mick Signals clips across all your favorite platforms, TikTok, Instagram, shorts, and I don't know. It seems like people are seeing a lot of them. And if you are, Please like and follow us on your platform of choice. And if you want even more, you can always sign up for Semaphore's media newsletter, which is out every Sunday night.
From the publisher
Alison Roman was one of digital media’s first food stars – she’s had recipes go viral since 2018 and an infamous ‘cancellation’ in 2020. Now, with her latest cookbook, Something From Nothing, she’s trying to move away from life on the Internet. This week, Ben and Max bring on the chef and author to talk about food media, the value of a physical cookbook in a digital world, and how AI is influencing her recipes. They also talk about why cooking, and her new book, are the ‘antithesis of the Internet.’
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