Don Lemon on Elon Musk, Chris Cuomo, and why YouTube is better than CNN

0:07Welcome back to another episode of the Mixed Signals podcast from Semaphore, where we are tracking the wild changes in this media age, and we're talking to all of the most interesting and important people shaping our media today. I'm Max Taney, media editor at Semaphore. With me, as always, is our editor-in-chief, Ben Smith, who's broadcasting from his home today. Ben, how are you? Good. Good to be with you, Max. Yeah, sorry to blow up your spot there. I don't know why I felt compelled to reveal your location. Anyway, this week, we're sitting down with someone else who has been broadcasting from his home, and that is Don Lemon.

0:45He is the former primetime anchor and morning show anchor at CNN, who left the network several years ago and has now become a broadcaster, podcaster, journalist online, where he's built actually quite a large and growing following on YouTube, TikTok. We'll talk to Don Lemon about leaving CNN for independent media and how it's changed the types of journalism and clips and media he's producing. We'll talk to him about his legal battle with Elon Musk and his experience working with Linda Yaccarino. We'll ask some uncomfortable questions about his beef with Megyn Kelly and why he and his old boss, Jeff Zucker, are disappointed in one of their former CNN colleagues.

1:26Ben Smith:Yeah, I realized when we launched Semiford just a couple years ago, we were going on his show and we were covering various kinds of drama around his show. So, yeah, the world is changing fast. excited to dig into it and a lot more right after the break

1:51ben so earlier this week someone dropped a link in slack uh to a variety article in which don John Lemon, the former CNN host, talked about how if he keeps up at the current rate of growth that he is experiencing as a new YouTube podcast creator, that he's actually going to make more money as a YouTuber slash podcaster than he did during kind of the peak cable news post Trump election bump in 2017. And, you know, seeing that article, I was kind of surprised. I kind of had been tracking a little bit of Don Lemon's stuff following his departure from CNN. You know, it seems like it had been kind of rocky and kind of turbulent.

2:37He had been one of the few creators, journalists who, after Elon Musk bought X, kind of joined. And now he's in some sort of crazy legal feud with Elon. You know, I wasn't fully convinced that this was something that was going to work. But looking at the audience for the show, clearly there's a lot of people who are paying attention, who are still invested in him. And clearly there is a market if the money is what he says it is. What did you think when you read this Variety article?

3:03Ben Smith:Yeah, I mean, you saw in that piece, kind of what interested me was that he acknowledged that the internet and this new media hadn't quite worked the way he had hoped it would or he thought it would. And I can kind of see why, because, you know, he is really a classic broadcaster and like a really gifted broadcaster. He has that thing that he can kind of like reach through the camera and like connect. And he came up in the most classic way. You know, he was in Birmingham and then St. Louis and then Chicago. And then he got his big break in New York. In local television, you mean? In local television, right.

3:35Ben Smith:Just classic TV guy, classic TV career. And I'm very interested in what he's learned, actually, from this. For him, what was actually in some ways a more dramatic jump than others, I think, to new media. Yeah. Well, why don't we bring him on? And I want to ask him about the transition from TV into the kind of world of YouTube and creator space, and then also, of course, his legal feud with Elon Musk. Maybe we can make a little bit of news on that. Yeah. Don Lemon, as you of all people know, has always been good for a headline. That's true. Our goal here is to get some of the clips of this show aggregated by the Daily Mail in the New York Post, which I'm sure Don would love to hear that that's what we're going for here.

4:13But he's probably used to it.

4:18Ben Smith:Thanks for joining us, Don. Thanks for having me. We were just talking before you came on about what a sort of great classic television career you had, like Birmingham to St. Louis to Chicago to New York. It's the great 20th century arc of a great television broadcaster. And I guess I'm curious at what point you thought, oh, oh, things are changing so much that I may not end my career this way. When did you start to think maybe I should be doing my own thing independent? Well, it's interesting that you say that because my first stop was actually New York City as a production assistant, a news trainee at the Fox station in WNYW.

4:54But Kara Swisher reminded me that a year or so before I left CNN, maybe even two years before I left CNN, she asked me what was the next thing. And I said, maybe the Don Lemon channel, my own channel and my own network. So I think I started to think about it then. But since you bring it up, having had that sort of career where you had to start in a small market and work your way up and make mistakes, this is pre-internet, I think I had the foresight to know that this is going to end because people had been predicting the demise of cable news and network news for such a long time. And finally, I saw it coming to an end when I realized, like, look at what's happening with social media.

5:34Look at these people who are in other mediums who are other parts of the media, and they are making great money. Look at the Joe Rogans of the world. And I just started thinking about what is next, what's next. And so, you know, I never saw myself sort of as a traditional news person, even though I had the journalist chops. People were more interested in who I was. And I think that helped tell the news. They were interested in the news, but they were interested in who I was. They found me to be a very interesting person because I took a lot of risks. And sort of a personality, I think that was maybe more akin to a Fox News personality because I just said it.

6:11So yeah, I started thinking about it a couple years before I actually left CNN. You didn't leave voluntarily, but now that you're a few years kind of removed from that, what was the feeling that you were getting while you were there about CNN's kind of relationship to its audience? I mean, you see it now, the ratings for the shows are just pretty bad. Take us inside what it was like to be at CNN as some of that stuff was happening. Did you get the sense like, you know, the ship is sinking in terms of audiences fleeing? Um, how honest do you want me to be? Extremely honest. This is the venue for it.

6:48I mean, but you guys have to remember, this is probably maybe new to you, but I'm still under contract for CNN for another year or so. So yeah, so I have to be careful. That's why you haven't really seen me in many other places because I'm still under a non-compete. And so people are like, oh, he can't get a job. He's not getting a job. I'm not looking. I can't. So I'm doing what I can do under the terms of my contract. So I saw it. I mean, honestly, after Jeff left, when they got rid of Jeff, I was like, it's over. Because whether you like Jeff or not, he was a visionary. The folks there trusted him.

7:22He had great trust and confidence in the newsroom, which is the most important thing. and um you know i thought that cnn plus was not perfect but it was the thing that was going to take us into the future and that it would whatever however it started that it would correct itself at least it gave us a runway to be able to move into the new digital streaming age and when that when jeff left and that ended i said all right it's over and you know when the the move to the right when they started saying they wanted to and this is no secret because john malone said it you You know, on CNBC, I would like CNN to be more like Fox News.

8:01And so when they started trying to move to the right, which I think news is you don't really move it. It is what it is. It's about truth. I said this is over because they're going to turn off their core audience. We're going to turn off our core audience, and people are going to start tuning out faster because there's no payoff. And they won't soon recognize. There'll be little recognition about what network they're watching. They're like, wait a minute. What am I watching? So I think that's when I started to realize it. And there was very little, you know, we went from, we love this guy. He's great.

8:36He's not perfect, but he's the perfect person to take us into the future because he protects us from the corporation and we can do our journalism and his office is open and whatever. And to people who are just afraid to even have conversations in their own offices because they thought they were being spied upon or that the corporation would somehow hear it and they would lose their jobs. And people started to, you know, how do I want to say this, pull their punches on air. And that's when I thought, you know what, this is over.

9:08Ben Smith:You mentioned Jeff Your old on-air friend Chris Cuomo Was quoted recently saying that Zucker had told him he had to go on your show To mitigate whatever is going to come out of your mouth You know how that started? The handoff? The handoff started With Jeff Zucker Telling me You've got to stay over onto his show To kind of help mitigate Whatever was going to come out of his face Stop it. I believe it. I believe it. Stop it. Well, you know, Jeff and I are friends. And I see Jeff and talk to him weekly, sometimes. No, a couple times a week, not daily. And I asked him about that, and he just laughed and said, oh, that's really sad.

9:56But if you really think about it, it doesn't make sense that he would, why would he have to come on my show? You're talking about the handoff thing that we did? Yeah, the handoffs. If the shows were reversed, that would make sense. But it's not for me to say, okay, Chris, thank you. Goodbye. I could kick him off whenever I wanted to. So he had really no control over what I said or what came out of my mouth on my show because he was not really a part of my show. He wasn't there.

10:22Ben Smith:I mean, you were there for one of the really great, strange television things that ever happened, which was the Chris COVID moment, which, you know, and his brother's the governor. And like, I mean, it was so interesting. I wrote about it for the Times and basically wrote like, is this the future of TV? Like, this is so confusing. And then it really became a huge scandal after the fact. I'm curious, you're right in the middle of it. What did you think about that at the time? What do you think about it now? It's so weird. I haven't talked about or thought about Chris in that, except not every once in a while.

10:54People remind me all the time, like, hey, oh my gosh, I miss you and I loved you. And Chris, that was a moment. It was appointment television I don't watch anymore. That's what I, you know, I used to set my DVR to you guys to watch it. So just to go back, by the way, that whole handoff thing, and I think he said that on a podcast or something, right? Yeah. That whole handoff thing came about because when Jeff came to the network, he said one show would just go, everybody was in a silo. So we would just go from one show to the next to the next without any interaction between anchors. And he told everyone I want a handoff.

11:27So there was a handoff with Anderson to Chris. I think there was a handoff from Aaron to Anderson and then from Anderson to Chris. Or it was from Anderson to me because Chris wasn't there the entire time. He came later. Chris came to prime time much later than I did. And so he wanted a handoff between shows. And I said, oh, you want a handoff? I'm going to give you a handoff. And so I said, you know what? I'm going to talk to Chris. I'll give him shit, and I'll make it really fun, and then I'll go on and do the news. So that whole idea about that lengthy handoff, that was my idea. That was me.

12:00And my producers would say, oh, my God, Don, you're killing our A block. Go, move on, move on, move on. And then in my head, I was like, this is the highest rated point of the day on the network. Why are we running away from it? just to get to a rundown. And so that was me doing that on my own. So I don't know what Chris is talking about. I just, you know, I feel, you know, whatever, good luck to him. Do you feel you're a podcaster, you're a broadcaster, podcaster now, streamer, exactly. You're in the, you're kind of in that weird soup, you know, with the rest of us these days. And, you know, Chris is making these kind of controversial comments on another podcast.

12:37Do you think, I mean, I wonder if he feels the pressure to, you know, say things that get attention or, you know, go viral or whatever. I mean, do you ever feel that as a podcaster? Do you ever feel the kind of pressure to get attention in that way now that you're not, you don't have a slot on television every night where you have your audience locked in? No, not at all. I mean, I don't have to. People like to write about me, whether it's true or not. I've always been a lightning rod for that. I don't know why. Well, I do know why. I mean, It's easy, especially the New York Posts of the world or the daily news or the conservative media.

13:10They write about me because it's easy. I'm black. I'm gay. I'm outspoken. And it just makes great headlines. So I don't have to do that. And I'm kind of happy. It's kind of nice being in a place where the spotlight isn't on you 100 % of the time because usually the things that are important will come across more easily than the just sort of everyday minutia. of someone writing about it on a, on an industry website, which is gone in like, you know, two minutes. So, um, yeah, I don't feel that need and I don't feel the need to do that. And the interesting thing is, you know, when I'm on YouTube, I can see the audience right there.

13:50If you're doing a live, a live stream, some people will sort of play into that audience to see what happens if you can increase it. But I just do the news. And like, you know, just recently I did a story on, I had someone to come on to talk about jobs and the economy, and it was a new person, and I was a little bit nervous about, you know, are they good for, if it's too cable-y, which people don't want in streaming, we don't want cable news light, they say we just want you. And, you know, as the guy started talking, you know, I did see that the audience was increasing, and I said, well, since we have the audience, why don't we have the folks in the chat ask him questions and they can answer.

14:29And so you find easy ways to pivot into the information that is more beneficial to the subscriber or the viewer or the streamer or whatever it is, rather than doing something that's hyperbolic just to get attention. There are enough people in this streaming business who do that, but that's not something I want to do. I've said before, I don't want to be my Google searches to, when people look at it to be Don Lemon calls out this person. Don Lemon calls out that person. Don Lemon calls out that person. And if you look at some of the people on the right, the conservatives who, you know, have gained a foothold in this very early on in the streaming arena, that's what it is.

15:09Megyn Kelly has made a business out of being a troll and a racist and good for her, but that's not something that I want to do. Well, we're actually technically, I don't know. I mean, listeners of our show know that we are, I guess technically still involved in a beef as well with Megan. Well, you specifically are then.

15:27Ben Smith:I mean, I've been trying to surrender unilaterally, but I'm not cut out for this stuff, but Don might be making it worse. But Don, will you? Can I just say this? I did not talk about, I just ignored her for the longest time because that's sort of what she wants or wanted. But then after a while, it sort of got to me, you know, after the Joy Reid thing, and she was just so rude, and she would say things about me, and I just would not respond. People would send them to me. I'm like, I'm not getting in the dirt with her. You lie down with dogs, you get fleas. So finally I had to call her out for her misogyny, her racism, her trolling people, her internet.

16:05If you do a search on Megyn Kelly, it's always Megyn Kelly calls out this person. Megyn Kelly calls out that person now. She's doing it, but also there is a press, I'm sure she has a PR person behind her sending people notes saying, look, Megyn Kelly called out this person today. You want to write about it, at least in the beginning. I'm sure that's what happened. And so, and that was it. And then now I'm done with it, you know, unless she does something else that's egregious, but I think it was important to do that.

16:29Ben Smith:Well, in Megan's defense, I think she's reasonably equal opportunity. She definitely, like I had my turn over the barrel recently. Well, we need to take a short break, but we'll be right back with more from Don Lemon right after this.

16:54One of the first things that you did after you left CNN was a partnership with Elon Musk. Didn't last very long. You had an interview with him, which was honestly an incredible interview and one of the few that he's done in recent years. And that relationship fell apart. You're currently involved in a legal battle with him. What's the latest on that? And is your side going to depose him? I would, I would, I suggest that you, you know, contact my legal representation to discuss that. Yes. I mean, it's no secret I'm in litigation with Elon Musk. I think in any, you know, sort of lawsuit, I think, you know, deposition would be on the table for anything just in general.

17:36So yeah, of course, I think that working to that end. so what was that like? I mean, I actually don't really think about it that much. I went into this with the idea that, you know, as always, is that I want to do what's right, regardless of what, you know, the outcome may be or what other people will think about it. I need to do what's right for me and to sometimes set examples for the people who are coming behind me, which I think I've done before, but I really don't think about it that much on a daily basis, if at all, unless I get a note saying, hey, you know, we did talk to you or there's movement on something.

18:15I don't really think about it.

18:17Ben Smith:I guess I'm curious, I mean, what did you learn from the experience, like aside from the sort of legal battle aside, like, did you misread him? Did you misread the whole situation? You know, I don't know. I mean, look, that's a... look, I don't think that, obviously, I don't really have any regrets in my life at all. I think that things just happen, and that's what they happen, and they happen, and you just have to deal with it. I really went, I can only speak for me, I went into it with, you know, earnestly wanting to try to make a difference on a platform that I thought was a big, huge, important platform, especially as it relates to politics and the direction, especially of America.

18:59And I didn't think that that platform or that territory should be, we should cede that territory to extremists on the right or the left. And so I went into it earnestly and with them saying, this is what we want you to do. You have complete editorial control. I said, at times I will have to discuss and even criticize the owner of this platform. him. If I can't do that, then I won't do this. Oh, absolutely. That's what he would want. That's what we want. Great. Let's do this. Please do this. Please do this. They pursued me. I didn't pursue them. And so once Linda Yaccarina, and I said no. I had a conversation or two, I forget, with Elon Musk.

19:43And then I said, I'll just wait. And then Linda Yaccarina came on board and she had credibility from being in the business and, you know, I had a really great, a big job and big reputation, whether, you know, liked or not, but that's besides the point. Um, and so, um, you know, I went into it thinking that I was getting into business with adults and so that would keep their word and, um, abide by the, you know, contract implied or not or whatever it was. And so, um, And that did not happen. And I did think that considering the platform and what people say on that platform and what they allow on that platform, that the people who ran that platform and the person who did would believe in free speech.

20:29A free speech absolutist means what? Freedom of speech. Being able to say whatever you want. Asking the tough questions, even to the owner of the platform. And that's what I did. Just because I went into a business deal with him, it did not mean that he owned me. and that it would somehow change my integrity as a journalist if I were to interview him or anybody else. I interview the president of the United States the same way, with the same respect that I interview the man on the street who I just walk up to with a microphone. That's what you're supposed to do without fear of favor. Well, it seems like even though that partnership didn't go the way that maybe you had hoped, it seems like you found an audience.

21:07One part of this interview that you did with Variety recently really stuck out in which you said that if you kind of stay at the current trajectory that you're at, that you are probably going to make more money doing what you're doing now than you made at CNN. Talk about that. I mean, how much, what are we talking about here? How much money is it? And you were talking about, I will say, you know, you mentioned Kara Swisher earlier, Kara came on the show and talked about how much money she made. So did Scott Galloway, her host as well. But what does that look like? Well, good for them. I'm glad that they shared all of that with you.

21:40I never liked to talk about that even when I was in legacy media. I didn't like to talk about my contracts or how much money I made and people often write about it and, oh, you did this and you had a legal settlement or lawsuit. I never sued CNN. There was never a lawsuit. So don't believe everything you read. I'm sure you guys know that. However, if it continues on the current trajectory that I'm on now, I will eventually, I'm not saying it's going to happen this year or next year, but I will make more money than I made at CNN. And obviously, I think I'll make more money because now the salaries are decreasing, right, in traditional media.

22:18But there are so many different ways to do it. When I was at CNN, I could only do universities with endowments or that kind of thing. I could not do corporate speaking engagements at all because of, what do you call it, conflict of interest. And if I ever had to report on them, and I don't have to worry about that now, which is, I don't know if that's good or bad in this space. So I can take speaking engagements and get paid whatever I want. And I try to do it with integrity. Same thing with sponsors. Like it takes a while, especially for people who are not on the, I call it the crazy manosphere broadcast right.