Governor JB Pritzker on Chicago, ICE, and the information war with Trump’s White House

17:43Max Tani:We're also asking people to, you know, video and everything they see as evidence for cases, too. And then finally, show up and peacefully protest is an American right and responsibility indeed when you think that rights are being taken away. So I don't know. That's how I react and I haven't really thought about a strategy for it. It's just how I feel.

18:06Ben Smith:Are there tweets? Are there public statements hurting them or helping them in court?

18:10Max Tani:You're talking about ICE and DHS? Yeah.

18:14Ben Smith:I mean is that coming into these cases?

18:15Max Tani:It is. In fact, this morning, the judge basically questioned the credibility again. This is a different case than the National Guard case. This is the case that was brought privately against ICE, and there's a TRO on ICE. And this morning, the judge essentially said, I want all ICE officers with body cameras from now on because what they're saying is incredible, and we're getting evidence that what they're saying is false. else. So even in court, you know, that now that we and she cited in particular videos that she had seen.

18:51JB Pritzker:So, you know, you mentioned a few minutes ago that, you know, you're not totally you're not hearing very much from this administration directly. Yesterday, it was pretty notable. Zoran Mamdani went on Fox News and he tried to speak directly to the president. You know, he, you know, went direct to the camera and said, Trump, if you're listening and, you know, kind of tried to get his message out there. Have you considered doing something like that? If you feel like, you know, maybe Trump isn't, and I've heard you on other, you know, on other podcasts say that, you know, you think that Trump is getting information filtered through folks like Kristi Noem and Stephen Miller.

19:24JB Pritzker:Have you considered going directly through something like Fox?

19:28Max Tani:Um, I haven't, but I've communicated a whole lot and made sure that people know my message, which, you know, is a message to the president. It's also a message about what the administration is doing. But I've said directly, like, listen, if you believe that we need help, and I do too, by the way, that we always need help to fight crime. But what you're suggesting doing now, what you are doing now, is not helping. And so instead, if you want to help us, please send us civilian law enforcement, FBI, so we can go get the gangs. How about ATF so we can get the guns and DEA? We've got some of those on the ground and they're terrific.

20:07Max Tani:We work with them all the time and I have it throughout my governorship. But we could always use more. And guns are pouring over the border from surrounding states that don't have similar protections for people, gun safety laws that we do. You know, we ban assault weapons, for example, in Illinois, but none of the surrounding states do. And so guess what? It's very easy for someone, you know, a bad guy to go across the border and go get one and try to bring it back to Illinois. And we have firearm interdiction task forces that we work with ATF on. We could use more. And so I've said that directly to the camera many, many times on lots of places.

20:50Max Tani:I'm not just going on MSNBC or whatever, Left Wing or Democratic podcast, but lots of places. And I have to think that the president has seen that. I mean, going on Fox is just another tactic. So that's maybe somebody else's choice. I tend to think that Fox, as you know, everything that they do on Fox is designed to not get true information out there and to not give people a proper platform. So I don't know whether Zohan Mandani will get listened to. But I can tell you, I've not been quiet. Nobody thinks that I haven't been communicative about what we want, what we need and what we don't want for the city of Chicago and the state.

21:34JB Pritzker:Are you consuming the kind of conservative media that is – in some cases, the conservative media has done these ride-alongs with DHS. Have you been paying attention to the conservative media and its coverage of what's going on in Chicago? And what do you think about how the kind of conservative media has been covering what's going on there?

21:52Max Tani:Well, it seeps into my feed even if I'm not looking for it. And actually recently, one of those influencers, right-wing influencers, came to my house. This is right after Charlie Kirk was murdered. Came to my house and stood in front of my house, recorded a lengthy video, essentially saying that I am the enemy and that people should understand that I am causing the environment that led to Charlie Kirk's death. Now, you can imagine that people who are listening to that might choose to act on that, especially in the environment of that week. And I have to say, you know, that's – those right-wing podcasters, what they're doing is causing danger and potentially fomenting violence.

22:47Max Tani:When we had Texas legislators here in Chicago when they were trying to avoid the quorum, we had to make sure they were secure and we had them at a hotel in the suburbs. And apparently one of those right-wing influencers discovered where they were and then posted on his feed where they were and suggested that people might want to come. And so we had to move them.

23:19Ben Smith:I mean that doesn't sound that different from what people are doing with ICE agents right now. I mean there's a whole fight over whether that's allowed, whether Facebook should take it down.

23:28Max Tani:Yeah, but look, doxing, nobody thinks that's – I don't think anybody thinks that's a good idea. But what they're taking down – a lot of what they're taking down is simply critical posts about like ICE showed up in this neighborhood, not about the specific individuals. I think we shouldn't have doxing. But I do think that it's OK for people to post about, you know, this neighborhood has been, you know, invaded by ICE or CBP and that they've improperly held people, that sort of thing. But unfortunately, Facebook is not being careful about what they are taking down. And they're just taking whole sites down entirely.

24:10Max Tani:So I'm concerned about that. It is very different in my view. What these guys are doing is that, you know, they're these right wing podcasters anyway, is putting people in danger. And that I think, you know, should be acted upon. If Facebook is going to do something to stop doxing, they should also stop people who are like encouraging violence. And one other thing that, you know, local local media here has been so vitally important for just telling the truth. And some of that gets out into social media. You know, it's traditional media, but it's so close to the subject. These right-wing influencers and others who show up, you know, from somewhere else and they don't really know the city and they don't understand all the dynamics are reporting things that just aren't accurate.

25:01Max Tani:Or they take a little segment and try to make it seem like that's the whole city. Our local media here have done actually a really good job of covering the broad swath of what's really going on. You know, I think you mentioned that you had seen some video maybe of, you know, of a protest here or there. It's true. There's sometimes a protest gets out of hand. And we have local law enforcement that are helping to deal with that. You can imagine the very small Broadview, Illinois police force. That's not in Chicago. That's where the ICE facility is. 31 people belong to that police force. You know, they have to cover all those shifts of 31 people.

25:35Max Tani:And now they got this, you know, a couple hundred people protesting every day. They needed help. And so we have state law enforcement, county law enforcement working with that local law enforcement. So we're doing our part to keep people safe. You know, it's the right wing podcasters and those who are, you know, intending to cause mayhem on the ground are, you know, seeping into these environments and causing real problems.

26:02JB Pritzker:Well, we have a lot more that we want to get to with Governor Pritzker, but we have to take a short break. So we'll be right back with more after this.

26:38Ben Smith:years time. I know from the outside, it looks like a giant toy show. There's smart rings and foldable laundry robots and flying cars. But I was chatting with Shelley Palmer, who I interviewed for my new podcast. He's an AI visionary and tech leader. And he swears by, and I agree with him, that the ability to see patterns amongst all the gadgets is actually really, really compelling for near term and into the future. So what did you learn from that conversation? Well, the gadgets aren't really the thing. Stuff gets announced. Some of it launches. Some of it doesn't launch. What you're really looking for are business model changes, the new paradigms that are emerging.

27:20Ben Smith:So two that I saw and we spoke about, one is around agentic commerce. Google announced during CES and just after CES a whole bunch of partnerships with Shopify, with Walmart, with Target around agentic commerce. super interesting building the new protocols for machines doing the shopping for you where appropriate. And then separately, I also saw a lot of expansion of what you might call intelligent ecosystems. These are technologies from different companies coming together, meshing together to enable you to do more interesting and engaging things. And again, with Google and Gemini leading the way, they're really fascinating forerunners of where we're all going to be in the near and medium term.

28:03Ben Smith:And where can people listen to the whole thing? You can listen to my conversation with Shelley Palmer in my new podcast, Frontier CMO, on YouTube or wherever you download podcasts, or you can sign up for my weekly newsletter over on LinkedIn. Great. Thanks, Josh.

28:26JB Pritzker:Chicago, it's the home city of, you know, former President Barack Obama. You know, I was looking the other day at a picture of his presidential library, which is going to be there. I mean, have you have you spoken with him? Have you heard from him since since this all began?

28:40Max Tani:It when you say this all began, I have spoken with him since Trump took office. But but since, let's say, August, early August, when we started to see, you know, the effort to to invade Chicago with ICE and with federalized National Guard, I have not spoken with him since. And I've spoken with a lot of other people and certainly people around him and tried to get as much advice as I can about how to react to this. In fact, just this morning and just a couple of hours ago, I was together with and held a press conference with, but I had a meeting beforehand with a group of generals, National Guard and generals from the Army and Rear Admiral as well, to get advice from them about how to talk about what Trump is trying to do and what the real impact is on the military in terms of readiness, in terms of retention.

29:39Max Tani:These are real challenges because Donald Trump is trying to engage them in a political ploy and using National Guard and other troops as a way to frighten the people of the United States in great American cities. And that's not what people signed up for. And that's what these generals were kind of reiterating to me. They're real concerned about our national security as a result of what Donald Trump is doing.

30:05Ben Smith:Do you feel like this – what a crazy experience this must have been for you. I mean, this sort of isn't what anybody signs up for. And I'm curious, like, I guess in some sense what you've learned. Like I think that you've changed – you've had to change your style of communicating to some degree, your style of governing amid this kind of crisis where you're at odds with the federal government.

30:27Max Tani:Is there stuff you feel like you've learned here? Yeah, Ben. And, you know, I took office in January of 2019. And I would remind you, you know, the other day, my chief of staff and I were kind of lamenting that in my six and a half years in office, you know, how many months can we count that were precedented times, not unprecedented? And the answer was maybe eight. Because I came in, there was a, not only was Donald Trump in office, but also there was a budget crisis for the state of Illinois that I had to overcome in my first year in office and then finished that year and COVID. And then let's say a year, year and a half into COVID and all that's unprecedented, started the wave of migrants being sent from Texas to Chicago.

31:15Max Tani:And then, of course, we have Trump back in office now, which feels like COVID or like all the other unprecedented at a time. So have I learned anything? You know, the answer is you can't help but learn when you face all the challenges that we have, how to overcome them. But in terms of communication strategy, the thing that I guess I would take and I would point you back to is during COVID, what was very important to me, and I think in terms of just governance important, was even though we didn't know everything every day about, you know, what we needed to do, all of us, because the science hadn't caught up with the disease, I wanted to make sure that whatever facts we had, that we put them out there to the public as fast as possible.

32:02Max Tani:So people, because people are confused, they're concerned that, you know, this is back in COVID, confused, concerned, afraid, and the more you can reassure them that they know everything or that we're giving them everything we know, I think it gives people at least some foundation to stand upon. Same thing is true and same thing was true with the migrant crisis. Same thing is true now with the Trump crisis of National Guard and ICE in the cities. Whatever we know, when we know it, if it's factual and we can put it out there, that's what I want to do. And I think that's communicating well and quickly but factually is probably the biggest thing that I've – I don't know if I've learned it, but it's the biggest thing and most important thing I can do in a crisis.

32:52Ben Smith:That sometimes seems like it really disrupts the Trump people too. I think you announced that Kristi Noem was coming to town and told people to hide their pets. I mean is that part of the strategy?

33:03Max Tani:Well, yeah, that particular comment, I mean I guess we were mocking in that regard. But, yeah, part of the strategy was to make sure that in that case it was we knew that she was coming to say things that were untrue. We just knew that. And she was coming to talk about, you know, the criminal immigrants and, you know, and how they're, you know, they need to go after the thousands of Tren de Aragua, you know, that are – and she went to Springfield, Illinois to do it. And she did it standing in front of the governor's mansion. Like, really? That's not where Tren de Aragua are, if they are anywhere.

33:41Max Tani:And second, it turns out they've arrested, well, one person legitimately in the city of Chicago who is part of Tren de Aragua so far. So they've claimed other things and then they've had to go back on it. So, yeah, I mean, when she came and again, whenever we know, you know, that they're about to issue something that's false, we try to call it out as that. And then afterward to try to clean up the mess that they've left behind with their falsehoods.

34:10JB Pritzker:So, Governor, we know that you you have a hard out very soon. Sadly, we can't do this forever, even though it's a podcast. We could keep going for hours and hours. But you've got a few things that you've got to handle. You know, one of the things that we talk that a lot of people are really interested in that we talk about and that's changed our politics a lot recently is the idea that, you know, all of our attention is fragmented and there's so much media that everybody is consuming that it's really hard for moments, certain moments to break through. And that's something that is a big scandal or a big story one day is just totally gone from the news and from the news and from the people's attention and memory the week later.

34:49JB Pritzker:I'm really curious over the course of the last few weeks, maybe the last few months as this has unfolded, is there a particular media moment, a video, cable news hit, one of your tweets or posts like this Kristi Noem thing that has really broken through that people that you see in real life have seemed to held on to and they seem to remember? Is there something that you can think of? Wow.

35:15Max Tani:One thing you want me to mention. I mean I guess I would say this. In this instant last two months, let's say, two and a half months, probably the first and biggest thing that broke through was when I went out and held a press conference on a water taxi on the river, you know, showing the beauty of the city of Chicago and pushing back on the idea that there's a war zone that the president was talking about. And then I think to go along with that, what also broke through was we held a press conference later, just after that, with business leaders and pastors and nonprofit organization leaders and elected officials.

35:59Max Tani:And we did it together. And I think, you know, it was really a cross-section of the entire city represented at this press conference. And I think that was surprising to everybody that, you know, that so many different types of people standing together to say to Donald Trump, please don't send troops here. We don't want troops. We have other things we'd like, you know, help us with housing, help us with health care, help us with fighting crime with civilian law enforcement. But please don't send troops here. We don't want them. We don't need them. That broke through. I know that sounds – maybe you like to think the Kimmel moment did and maybe that did.

36:40Max Tani:But I think that that was a big one, that people kind of began to see that our city is really gorgeous, that we stand together, that the president is lying when he says that it's exploded somehow. And so I think that's what I can point to. You know, we don't sit around and think like, let's try to come up with a viral moment. You know, we are thinking about how do we best communicate to people what's really going on and make sure that it's credible. Because, you know, I think that the contrast between their lies and us putting out credible information, just it feels like that's the right way to go.

37:20Max Tani:And it was what we did during COVID. And it's what we're doing now during this crisis.

37:24Ben Smith:That is what struck me so much about that tweet that Tricia left up that mischaracterizes the video. I guess there's this question like, does it actually matter if you get things right? Can you just put something false out and move on?

37:36Max Tani:Well, they obviously think that you can if you just tell a lie enough times, right? That old expression about a lie can make it all the way around the world before the truth can lace up its sneakers. And it's true. I mean, it's true that that is what they believe. And they tell the lie over and over again so that people will maybe believe it, eating dogs and cats on the streets in Ohio, that kind of stuff. So it does work sometimes, but it only works if no one's really pushing back, right? And you're not doing it in a way that's credible and that people are listening because they know you're a credible source.

38:18Max Tani:So that's what we're trying to be.

38:19JB Pritzker:Well, Governor, we know that you have to go. You've been very generous with your time. Ben did have one fun question that he wanted to end with. I know that there's a lot of – you have a lot of other things going on. But Ben, what did you have that you wanted to ask the governor?

38:31Ben Smith:I do feel I should ask. There's obviously a story going around that you had a good year at the blackjack table last year. And I guess I was curious if you bet on the Bears, if you're betting on them this season.

38:45Max Tani:Thank you for asking that. But I always, when you say betting on, I don't actually bet on it because I regulate that industry in the state. So I don't bet on the Bears. Not here in Illinois. I really don't place those bets anywhere. But I am always rooting for the Bears, honestly. And actually, thank goodness, they kind of picked up. We had two bad games to start out the season. We've had a couple of good games. And so I'm pleased. Bears have not been terrific over the last – well, not for quite a while. And I think Caleb is picking it up for us. So I'm excited about the rest of the season.

39:29Ben Smith:All right. Well, thank you so much for taking the time, Governor. We really appreciate it. Thank you.

40:02Ben Smith:to help CMOs solve the hard problems, like navigating complex consumer journeys and proving value through better measurement. Make this the year you turn potential into performance. Visit thinkwithgoogle.com.

40:23JB Pritzker:So Ben, I thought that was a really interesting interview. I thought he was pretty game to answer some of our questions though, So as our producer this week, Manny, pointed out, the Bears are not a good team to bet on. So presumably his$1.4 million didn't come from that. But we covered a few more interesting things besides the Bears, the Chicago Bears, which is, you know, I thought he had some really interesting things to say about their media strategy, which kind of surprised me. But Ben, you booked the governor. You turned this. You managed to flip this from being a newsletter interview into a 30-minute conversation, which was really fascinating.

41:00JB Pritzker:What did you think about what Pritzker had to say about navigating this kind of media moment while kind of in this very pitched battle with the federal government?

41:11Ben Smith:Yeah, I would say I really appreciate it. I actually thought that he was just that if I was him, I'm not sure I would have taken the time to talk to us about communications because he's just so in it right now. Right. I mean, he's just in the middle of a very intense.

41:23JB Pritzker:Can I just cut you off there? Don't say that. Don't say that people shouldn't come and do this while they're in the middle of something. They should absolutely come and talk to our podcast while they're in the middle of managing, you know, a big national news story.

41:37Ben Smith:Yeah, well, in any case, but it was an amazing portrait, I think, of somebody just who is absolutely right in the middle of it, who's thinking it through on the fly. I mean, it was actually, it was a feature of the shifting moment that I had was talking to his team about doing an interview with him for a column about how you kind of communicate against Trump in a way. And at some point in our conversation, it just becomes obvious, like, why would you just have a phone interview? Obviously, it should be a video. Obviously, it should be a podcast. Would be a waste of their time, waste of our time not to do it in that way, which is its own kind of evolution of our business, of reporting.

42:08Ben Smith:I mean, I guess to me, though, the thing that I'm taking away from that that struck me most was the governor saying to his citizens, videotape everything. Just the sort of his sense that these kind of ubiquitous filming and that we want body cams on cops and that being the remedy is like, that is the thing that he feels is shifting the tide. And I think if you see these videos coming out of Chicago, the ones that aren't produced by the Department of Homeland Security, what you see are these kind of, honestly, kind of like scared ICE agents It's being screamed at by people as they tackle, you know, teenagers and line cooks and people who are not obviously committing any kind of crime.

42:49Ben Smith:Although, you know, as I said, I think who are, it is in their remit to arrest undocumented immigrants. But these videos don't make you think, wow, this federal government's doing a great job and we really want these guys here. And I think that seems to be what's turning the tide.

43:04JB Pritzker:We wrote about this. I wrote about this for the intro for our newsletter last week as I was kind of searching around for something to write about that didn't have to do with Barry Weiss, which seems like all of our colleagues in the media reporting world are fascinated with, obsessed with. It does strike me that the defining media story of the first year of Trump's administration, it's not like, oh, Democrats getting into podcasting or whatever, trying to catch up, whatever. It is really the fact that there is a new viral video every single day in different states, you know, where where the federal government, where ICE or, you know, the National Guard, in some cases, National Guard are coming up against, you know, people who are very upset.

43:51JB Pritzker:And these videos exist on on both sides. Obviously, the vast majority are these these videos that are trying to document what people perceive as these abuses by ICE. But then, of course, on the other side, you do have the Benny Johnsons and the, you know, kind of conservative media figures who are doing, Dr. Phil, who are like riding along with DHS and making their own kind of content, which they're also putting out there. And it does strike me that this is really, really shaping how people think about things in a way that we don't fully understand yet. And it is putting a visual to this concept that Democrats are trying to put out that Trump and, you know, and the right are engaged in this authoritarian project.

44:31JB Pritzker:They're the face of this.

44:33Ben Smith:Yeah. And I guess it's the thing that is very hard to measure essentially is how many people's, do we have a world in which you have one set of Americans whose feeds are these masked agents roughing people up who don't seem to have done anything wrong visibly. But then half of Americans feeds are essentially, in a sense, from the point of view of ICE agents who are trying to do their jobs and are being screamed at and having things thrown at them. And because I think that is, that's what you see if you watch Fox. I mean, I think my anecdotal sense, and obviously Pritzker's, is that there's just something about these, it looks like often kind of underprepared, undertrained, masked guys chasing people around CVS stores that is just very unsettling for a lot of Americans.

45:15Ben Smith:And clearly, that's why Pritzker is asking everybody in Chicago to film everything all the time.

45:19JB Pritzker:It's really, really interesting. The other thing that surprised me about what he had to say was this idea that the moments that he said had really resonated with people and, you know, he was on the spot. So I think he was kind of just saying whatever came to mind from him was actually the traditional media. I mean, some stunts that he that he did, you know, these press this press conference on the boats in Chicago, which I think they invited some influencers and stuff, too. But he talked about like traditional moments, which were like these press conference moments that it's with business leaders or whatever.

45:51JB Pritzker:And that that's That was the kind of stuff that had seemed to resonate in the community. Did you think that that was an interesting answer? Or do you think he was just thinking about the thing that he did?

46:01Ben Smith:Or was that like a little interlude from the Chicago Tourism Promotion Board? Maybe a little of both. I mean, I think what's so interesting with him is he's basically a very conventional politician. He's a guy who has done very straight-up-the-middle Democratic stuff for his career, who I think essentially, I think, wants to be a normal governor, doing normal governor stuff, and has been swept into this insane media world that we live in, and is adapting to it pretty effectively. I think that's something that people sometimes miss. As the media changes, the ways of communication change, and you'll hear people say, wow, the Republicans, Donald Trump, they've figured out this new media and this new way to communicate, and the Democrats and their opponents will never catch up.

46:43Ben Smith:But actually, every 11-year-old in America has figured it out, too, and even the Democrats at some point do catch up pretty fast. And I think what you're seeing essentially is this very rapid evolution where they reach parity. I would say one other thing that very kind of positively surprised me was just, maybe it didn't surprise me, but I was glad he said it. Like local news reporters on the ground in Chicago just doing a great job and being so important to finding some level of ground truth that people can agree on that isn't a video out of context or often that is providing the context for that video.

47:15Ben Smith:And I was kind of pleased to hear that that is where he's kind of ultimately getting his information.

47:21JB Pritzker:The one last thing that I wanted to end on that I thought was interesting was the way in which Kritzker wanted to put some space between himself and Gavin Newsom and said, hey, you know, what Gavin is doing is interesting, but that's just not who I am. And it feels like a very serious moment. I mean, it wasn't necessarily a swipe, but it was clearly a sign that he felt very differently about the tone of the moment. And that was just not a tactic that he wanted to embrace. And he said he didn't think it was funny. I don't think that Newsom thinks that these things are particularly funny either.

47:53JB Pritzker:But his team, his communications team, has tried a whole bunch of stuff to kind of make light of some of these moments, including doing AI stuff of J.D. Vance. And I think it's maybe possible that Pritzker was on here, you know, as he is thinking about what his future might be like. I don't know why else he would want to do the most important media podcast in the country, but we certainly appreciated having him on. So Ben, thank you so much.

48:17Ben Smith:Yeah, this was great. Thanks for scrambling to a mic.

48:21JB Pritzker:Well, that is it for us this week. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of the Mixed Signals podcast from us here at Semaphore. Our show this week is produced expertly by Manny Fidel, with special thanks to Josh Billinson, Chad Lewis, Rachel Oppenheim, Anna Pizzino, Garrett Wiley, Jules Zern, and Tori Kaur. And our theme music is by Billy Libby. Our public editor is Benny Johnson, once Ben's employee. Maybe we should get Benny on the podcast. I don't know. Little reunion.

48:53Ben Smith:Yeah, I think the word is a protege, but yeah. If you like this show, follow us wherever you get your podcasts and like and subscribe on YouTube.

49:01JB Pritzker:And if you want more, you can always sign up for Semaphore's media newsletter, which is out every Sunday night. And Semaphore's DC newsletter, which will have Ben's Monday column and interview with J.B. Pritzker later this week.