Rolling Stone scion on investing in ‘Track Star’ and the anti-algorithmic future of music media

28:58And that resonated. And I think algorithms just inherently kind of don't respect you. They're just kind of telling you like what you might like, because they're smarter than you. So I just, to me, it's wonky. And especially with AI, I think the value of like really high level, well done storytelling is going to become great. Ben, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I cannot tell. I don't know. Both at the same time. I'm a pretty pure algorithmic consumer at this point in my life. Don't worry, you didn't, the person who Ben has offended the most on this show with the pro-algorithmic messaging is Alison Roman, who Ben said that he's using chat GPT to figure out some recipes, which I think slightly horrified her when he said that, somewhat jokingly.

29:46But Ben, you're basically saying you think the algorithm is super effective. No, I mean, I actually think I agree with you that people are desperate for kind of human. I mean, it's certainly kind of our bet at Semaphore that at the top level, people actually want human intelligence and tastemaking in some sense that there's like a human with ideas and intentions behind the thing. But it just strikes me that like obviously most people in fact in reality seem satisfied with algorithms and are leaning on for most of their music. Yeah, and look, what else is there at the moment to a certain extent?

30:16I don't think the idea is to be naive. Like the algorithms are a very powerful tool and that's got to be kind of part of the recipe and leveraged. But I think there's a want and desire for something a little more human. Yeah. There is something to be proud of when you discover something outside of an algorithm at this point. I do think I cherish the music that I discover that's not just served to me in my Spotify release radar or something like that. If you think of music more broadly, and you look at what has resonated in a really deep way over the last even 20 years, you think about Amy Winehouse, you think about Adele, this year, Olivia Dean, there is something very classic about these acts.

31:04I'm answering your question in a weird way, but I guess my point is, I think there were great formats that when brought back the right way, really resonate in a modern context. Well, we have to take a short break, but we'll be right back with more with Gus Wenner right after this.

31:35This week on our branded segment from Think with Google, I spoke with Google's VP of Marketing, Josh Spanier, about what CMOs can learn from the AI transformation at their companies. What are the most common questions you get from CMOs? Help. I'm actually hearing help a lot from CMOs right now. And it's sort of grouped around their AI transformation. I'm getting the question, how are you in Google marketing doing your AI transformation? and what can you teach us or what can we learn from your progress? And really two deeper questions are, who does the AI work? Where does it sit within my organization and within my agency?

32:11And even more critically, how do I get my teams to embrace AI solutions and technologies? How do I take the horse to water and actually make it drink the AI water, as it were? And what advice are you giving them? One of the most important is just finding your AI champions. Find those people in your organization who are passionate about technology, passionate about doing their job, and passionate about using AI to solve problems. And then give them more responsibility, more projects, and they can be little change agents within your organization, sparking change of behavior. That's one thing that's really helped us.

32:46A second thing, especially for CMOs, is you can't delegate. You have to own the conversation, some of the tactical, practical things that have to be decided with an AI. When you push it down and you're not involved, things aren't going to go as fast as you want as people will revert back to their sort of normal ways of working. And where can CMOs go to find out more about this? One of our vice presidents, Torrence Boone, has just published a really good guide, the CMO's Playbook for AI Transformation. So head on over to thinkwithgoogle.com and search for CMO's Playbook for AI Transformation.

33:29What have you thought about the music media landscape in general and some of the struggles that it seems like the music media has been facing? You lived some of it at the center of Rolling Stone, and you guys navigated some of those challenges and came out the other side okay. But, you know, you look at Pitchfork, which earlier this year announced that it was going behind a paywall after very proudly not putting its reviews behind a paywall and kind of acknowledging that music criticism now is something only that a few people are really interested in. What have you thought generally about some of those types of struggles?

34:03Well, I think a lot of it has to do with packaging and presentation and the business model. And I kind of go back to what I was saying before, which is I don't think traditional media companies have really figured out how to think like a creator, right? Like creators have been so successful in this environment. the company that I think actually has kind of gotten a totally different type of content, but like Barstool in a lot of ways, they've done a really successful job of, you know, putting the talent first and having that be the business model. Uh, I think in the audio space, Rick, the ringer has done a really good job of it in its own way.

34:38So Jack and I have talked about wanting to build a new kind of media company with this business on a couple levels. And that's definitely one of them is just the model and what's at the tip of the spear. I think in terms of the culture and environment that we want to build, we want it to be fun and nimble and energetic and very of the material that we're producing and creating. And I think that the broader media industry, whether it's Pitchfork or, you know, a lot of these brands that have also been subsumed by these bigger corporate media companies, it's hard to be as nimble and creative as I think you kind of need to be to win in today's landscape.

35:17Trackstar is obviously a big part of your focus and public opinion is part of your focus. Are there any other media companies that you're looking at as well? And do you plan on making any more investments this year? Yes. The next thing we'll announce it in April. A huge part of my focus, especially in this initial stretch, is going to be on Trackstar in public opinion. But I'm working on another company and we'll announce that in April. And it's in a similar but different space. But I think it fits track star. You know, Gus took me out to a very nice lunch, as I recall. This would have been, gosh, 2021, was it?

36:01Or were we doing 2019? Something like that. I can't actually remember if I was at BuzzFeed or at the Times. You're at the Times. A very nice lunch. And it's actually really interesting because you were looking for – I mean, I'm a political journalist. And I think you were looking for a political journalist with strong cultural taste to really, like, bring back the spirit of the early Rolling Stone where it cut across culture. And it was, you know, the dominant music magazine but then would also really punch really deeply into politics. And I just didn't – I mean, it's obviously incredibly interesting.

36:31And I remember I told my son that. He was like, you're an idiot. Like, you need to go back and call that man right now. um but i was gonna say you told your son not that man that kid that's part of the problem that wasn't the problem um i'm just not deep enough in music to feel like i could do it but i so i instead was like oh i know another like super troublemaking political journalist who's in a ska band and i think i introduced you to noah shachman who you wound up hiring you did at that time yes i first of all it was clear to me that politics was was and was going to continue I mean, it always is a huge story, but especially in this political era we're in, you know, I wanted somebody who could really handle that in a really serious way and keep with Rolling Stone's tradition of being a really serious player in that world.

37:17And also there's a huge music staff with a lot of know-how and really, really deep knowledge and contacts and relationships in that space. And for that reason, I think someone like yourself made sense to me. Hmm. Well, you're still recruiting me here. But the— Well, no. But I guess I'm curious about that because I think, like, I really did love that vision that it was—but I also wonder, like, in retrospect—I actually don't know if you and Noah, you and or Noah are, like, remain at this point grateful to me for the intro or, like, Jesus Christ, that was terrible. You don't have to tell me now. But it now feels like, and certainly in this edition of Rolling Stone, the notion that it's going to be culturally central and have these deep connections to the industry, really investigative and tough on the same industry, and then at the same time be doing totally haywire political coverage that picks huge fights, whether it's Hutter S.

38:17Thompson or Michael Hastings. Like, can that still live in one publication or was that sort of ultimately not the way modern media is organized? Like, I basically thought you had these ambitions for cultural relevance and really tough journalism both on the industry and on the president of the United States that – I don't know. I think that the sort of shifts in power, particularly of the industry, make it harder than it was in the 1970s to do all those things at the same time. I can't speak to Rolling Stone at this very moment, but what I can say is I think Rolling Stone's biggest and most important assets were its access, its authority, and its storytelling.

39:00And when I say storytelling, I'm talking about ability to work with and find the best writers in the world. And it seemed clear to me that we had to lean into those things. And no matter what was happening and how pervasive kind of social media has become, those were three unique, very valuable attributes that we could offer to the world. At the same time, to your point, there is such an avalanche of information coming at everyone on a given day, especially on beats like the White House where, you know, Rolling Stone had, you know, a tiny modicum of the amount of resources that the New York Times or someone like that has covering this day in, day out.

39:45So I didn't want it to be like a regular diet. I wanted us to focus on the highest level, deeply reported feature stories in those arena. And then that sort of like daily, you know, full coverage would be really around the core beat of music, and kind of entertainment to agree, but that these other areas where we had history and equity and know how and a muscle, we had to kind of punch big, but less often. So that was really kind of like the mix. And I think that that works, but I think the way you kind of described it is right. That would be too much, I think. And do you think, I mean, the other big, big shift in music journalism, entertainment journalism, lots of journalism, has just been political journalism.

40:29Like they shift in power from the media to the sources, to the subjects. I mean, just the control over access and the ability, particularly for celebrities, just to go direct means that they don't need Rolling Stone the way they used to. And did that mean that you had to be more gentler, essentially, with the people you covered? I mean, just that anybody has to. I think a lot of people probably have felt that way. I never felt that way. You're 100 % right. Like the reliance on the media in any industry has become way less. And I think it's put media companies in a really weird position where a lot of them in response have published like, sort of weird stuff to try and maintain audience.

41:10And it's been a very weird incentive. and I think that it's it requires a different kind of thinking and yeah there was an era where with Rolling Stone if we ask someone to be on the cover just be a no-brainer yes and then you know in recent times you're like negotiating with someone you know that they'll only do it if their own personal photographer could could take the photo and it's just lines that I was never willing to cross and if that meant losing certain opportunities that's fine but I always felt like the sort of integrity of the brand was the most important thing. But again, you're right.

41:48Like, the landscape has changed. And not to like circle it back to Trackstar, but it reminded me of kind of the old days of Rolling Stone in the sense that people kind of wanted to participate in it and saw the way that it actually could move the needle and make an impact with its audience in a way they can't quite do on their own and their own channel, that to me is a huge revelation and something that I think we can build a lot around. I'm going to ask the flip side of Ben's question, which is, can you think of or remember any times where there were people who came to you and who were really upset about coverage from Rolling Stone?

42:30And how did you deal with that? I imagine that may have happened once or twice. Oh yeah, constantly. I mean, countless times, people I know, friends, people I don't know coming to me, you know, upset about a story or something. If the journalism was strong enough, it would just be a no-brainer. And it was a story worth telling. What I hated, especially during a certain period, Rowland so I got a little guilty of and, you know, quickly moved to address that, but was the kinds of stories that were sort of negative and not important. You know, that wasn't the space I wanted us to play in. But the stories that were important and critical in ways that were answering questions that needed to be posed and answered and relied on real reporting, that was always way more important to me than someone I may have known that came to me like being upset that that reporting was being done.

43:26It was, I mean, I've worked with a lot of people and most would tell you that that's always been how I managed Rolling Stone. And certainly was the way, well, I was going to talk about how my dad, but he did an amazing job of it. I mean, he, look, I don't know if, do you remember the story we did on Johnny Depp? Yeah, of course. Incredible piece of journalism. You know, that was someone my dad had been close with and known forever. So how did he just, I mean, I think this is actually something so important. for like media proprietors who are listening, like how you handle that situation, which inevitably comes up when you own or invest in a publication.

44:04Like what did you learn from your dad on that? How did he handle that situation? How did he think about that kind of situation? I mean, for him, it was a whole other level of Harry because he had Rolling Stone. He also had Us Weekly, which at the time, you know, that and People, Magazine, I mean, they kind of were Instagram in a lot of ways. They were that big. And it was a celebrity gossip magazine, and there's a lot of celebrity in his life. And so there was all sorts of overlap. And I can't really speak to how he handled it. I can tell you, I know many, many times where he made the sort of noble decision.

44:42But I think he had a really good barometer of where the line was and what was kind of worthy. I think with Us Weekly, it was complicated because by nature, it was a gossip magazine. So the lines were way different. But with Rolling Stone, I think he kept a really strong line. And I mean, he was responsible for, I think, you know, some of the most important and impactful cultural societal journalism of the last 60 years. So, you know, maybe he didn't do everything perfect. Maybe I didn't do everything perfect. But I think he did a really good job of it. So, Gus, did you always want to go into the family business?

45:22You started working at Rolling Stone right out of college, and you were thrown into these, as you mentioned earlier, just really intense situations. I can't really imagine what that would be like at 26 to be making the decision about the future of this thing that your dad spent a long time doing. Did you always want to do this? um i mean my my real like love was was music in college uh and high school and whatnot and when i graduated my intention wasn't to you know i couldn't have foreseen the way it went in fact my dad who's a pretty shrewd guy he sat me down and was like just so you know this is going nowhere and i was like i don't want to do um but but i uh and he was like i look even if you were great at this, which like the odds of that are pretty slim.

46:12He was like, I wouldn't even want like to put this burden on you. Like it's, it's, it's a lot. And, uh, but then I think there was something around the fact that it was right at this moment in 2012. And I remember I went to see Shane Smith and Vice was killing it. They were like eating Rolling Stone's lunch of this little like new digital media thing. And I was introduced to Shane by Tom Fresson, who was an old friend of my dad's a big investor and part of Vice's success. And I walked out of his office and I was like, I, and I've said this to Shane before, but I, or after this all, you know, in recent times, but I felt just determined on this like mission and crusade to make Rolling Stone successful in this new world.

46:58And it's sort of mission was so deep in my blood and feeling that I didn't never even thought like, is this what I want to do? Is this not what I want to do? It just was like, do it, you know? And that was a big sort of driving force for me. But at the same time, I was like, look, if I'm not good at this, like the proof's in the pudding, like the numbers are very clear, like I'll do something. I should do something else. But we kept being successful in building this kind of digital part of the business, which eventually became the whole of the business. Ben, do you, I feel like that was a pretty interesting time for you as well.

47:33Do you remember that kind of intoxicating feeling? I feel like I got there kind of towards the end as the party was tapering off, but I saw all of you doing that and it seemed very exciting. Doing digital media back when things were good? Doing digital media when they had parties and it was really fun. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I would walk out of an executive's office and feel excited. Yeah. And actually, I got on the ride in like 2004. And so I never had the, like the hard part of the job, which Gus had at Rolling Stone, which was a transformation. I mean, I've never done that. That seems extremely difficult and don't want that job.

48:02But there was that sense, which I'm sure you felt at Vice, and I'm sure pissed you off, of just the arrogance and the sense that the future obviously belongs to these newcomers and the legacy brands are obviously being pushed aside. I don't know. I think in retrospect, we were so arrogant and pretty much wrong about that. Well, yeah, I think there was some of that. There was also this other element, which is BuzzFeed was VC backed. Yeah, we had access to so much capital. There was so much capital and they were, it almost felt like the mission was just to grow top line revenue as much as possible so they could raise more money at an even higher valuation.

48:40So we were left as a privately owned family business who relied and cared about profitability, which of course everything got eventually to that place, but almost competing against these competitors that were like selling$1 for 50 cents basically. Oh, yeah. And I remember at BuzzFeed, we were very briefly profitable. I think it was in 2014. And the board, our board was like, what are you doing? Like, why are you profitable? You're supposed to be focused on growth, not profitability. You're obviously not spending our money fast enough. Not that that is a surprise, but it's so crazy. Look, I'm grateful that I came up in an environment that was about managing to profitability and building a sustainable business.

49:26And I think it's back in fashion. It's back in fashion. Well, Gus, we know you got to go. So last question for you from our producer, which is, what are you listening to right now? What's exciting to you musically? Oh my God. We were actually specifically asked, by the way, for you to show us the last thing that you were listening to on your phone, just to keep it honest. But if you would like to, we would be interested in that. Let me see. Oh my God. Okay. Well, actually, the last thing, the thing that I'm literally up right now is this song called Parachute by Sean Lennon. And the reason I'm listening to that, because I saw Sean on Friday night and I asked him if he ever thought about that parachute off his record Friendly Fire, which was an amazing record, felt to me like it was lifted for SZA's song Kill Bill.

50:20And if you listen to those two songs, they're so strikingly similar. and Sean was like, you know, no one's ever really brought that up to me, but it's always kind of been in the back of my mind. And I was like, it's like a one for one. But he was like, yeah, you know, I probably ripped that off someone else or whatever. But that's a great record. But what am I listening to now? The person that has struck me as a serious talent is this guy McGee. Yeah. Yeah, he's really, really brilliant as a guitar player, as a songwriter, as a singer. There's something like kind of almost Prince in there, but Fleetwood Mac in a way.

51:02So that's the person I think is incredible. But I listen to all sorts of music. Yeah, and also an artist who suffers from, in my view, the big problem of music in the internet age, which is if I've never said the artist out loud, I don't know how to pronounce it. I'm just only familiar from reading the actual words. So maybe that's something that you guys can address with your new media company. But Gus, we really, really - It will be our mission. Yes, thank you. Thank you, Gus. Thanks for coming on. Pronounce as many artist names as possible. Thank you guys so much. I'm sorry I was a little sick and look a little sick.

51:34You were great, Gus. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Talk soon.

52:06up, Think with Google provides the insights that turn strategy into growth. So don't just talk about the AI opportunity. Operationalize it. Visit thinkwithgoogle.com.

52:21So Max, that was so fun. Gus was really so open and just so deep in the world of music media. Do you buy this basic idea that people are tired of the algorithms and that there's going to be this resurgence in whatever it is, whatever magic Rolling Stone used to have? I think at the top end, people are definitely interested in breaking free from algorithms. And there is, in a moment where so much of our lives are defined by recommendations and algorithmic feeds, I think that ultimately Gus is right that it does feel cheap and it's a fun house mirror version of you. It's like, you know that it's you in there, but you don't necessarily like what you see all the time.

53:06This is how I feel in my TikTok feed is I'm like, man, they think I am an idiot who just is interested in cooking videos and menswear and snowboarding and basketball. And I do like all those things. But I actually am much more interested in when I open up my phone consuming a much broader amount of content that doesn't totally rot my brain and that enriches my life. And so I think definitely there is space for the things that define you as a person in your taste, the things that you're proud of, like, oh, I love that band, or I love, you know, this thing, this kind of excitement that you get. I think that there is space outside of the algorithm for that.

53:43But for a lot of the like, kind of most, you know, the basic stuff, some kind of your fifth favorite artist, maybe the algorithm is going to do that stuff for you. What do you think, Ben? I mean, I thought actually what you said, Gus said a lot of smart stuff, but I thought what you said about treasuring things you discover outside the algorithm is so true. If it's like a band, the song you found on a show or a person recommended to you just obviously has more resonance. We see that too from the people who we have on the show, right? People love Blackbird Spyplane because they're like, this is this cool newsletter that I read about, that I found out, and I read it a few times a week, and it's kind of my special thing that feels like part of my taste.

54:25And I think that that's different than just the kind of, you know, I get a lot of fashion content that's pitched to me and that comes at me through the feed that's just lacks that special little personal touch. Yeah, it's funny. Personalization is actually turns out to be the enemy of the personal touch, right? Like personalization is so deeply impersonal, comes from nowhere and isn't ultimately what anybody likes, although it's a great utility. No, absolutely. And in a pinch, it's great. I need to find a hotel. I need to find, something that I don't really care that much about. But for things that you do care deeply about, it can be good to break free of that.

55:01The other question that I had for you, Ben, I thought that his point that he made that it's funny that the creators have all of the audience and excitement and attention, but don't have that great of monetization. And many of the media companies have great monetization, but don't really have any of the big personalities and audiences was a really interesting point. Did you think that that was true? Oh, yeah. I mean, I think in some ways that's a very sharp formula for something we're talking about all over the place. Like, why should Versant Media buy or license or whatever Pod Save America and The Bulwark?

55:39It's because they have a giant, rapacious advertising machine across a zillion platforms and plugged into the huge brands that still buy a lot of the advertising for whom, honestly, a medium-sized podcast operation are too small to bother with. And so I do think there are matches to be made between essentially like the ad sales and subscription arms of legacy businesses and the content from new media. And that's, I mean, that's in some way always been the logic of all sorts of different acquisitions. Yeah. So, Ben, I was watching, when I was watching the Super Bowl this weekend, I was watching this Lays ad in which they very sentimentally pass down the potato farm from father to daughter.

56:21And it's this very idealized version of America. And people love the idea of several generations of farmers. In media, we have a very different attitude about that. People think, oh, this is just a nepotism situation. What do you think about Gus's relationship with his family business? And were you kind of surprised by some of the stories and his thinking about how he was navigating, you know, this very difficult time at Rolling Stone while he was 26 years old and his dad was recovering from a heart attack? Okay, first of all, I actually wept during that Lays ad. Like, that was just, you know, totally directed to me.

56:56I wept and went and found some Lays potato chips. But, yeah, you know, it's funny because this is definitely something I've, like, really deeply changed my view on family businesses, which is, I remember when we were at BuzzFeed, Jonah Peretti and I joking about, But it's like the New York Times, you know, wants to find the ideal CEO for the most important news business in the world. And they do a global search to figure out, like, who could be the best possible leader. And, oh, my God, what a coincidence. It's the son of the current guy. You know, and that's funny to say, and it sounds ridiculous, right?

57:27But I just think, obviously, A.J. Salzberger has done a phenomenal job running that place. I mean, look at the Washington Post. Look at the New York Times. And part of it is that sense of, like, long-term stewardship. and you're not going to pivot and you don't think of it as like a brand and you're not looking for an exit and all this sort of, you know, jargon, you're totally committed to the business. I remember Dean Bacay said once that the success of the New York Times rests on the choice by the Salzberger family to be millionaires rather than billionaires, which I thought, you know, and, but the other part of it is that for a smart kid who for whatever screw loose reason is obsessed with following in their father's or their mother's footsteps, you do just learn an enormous amount.

58:09And right, you grow up in this thing and it's in your blood and you're obsessed with it. But also, you know, he's learning at the feet of Jan Wenner, who, love Murheiden, one of the great media figures of his generation, and obviously has soaked up an enormous amount from that. And so, you know, it gives you a leg up. Like, I think a lot of talented actors are the children of other talented actors because they've, like, studied at their parents' feet and it's a real, it's just, you know, it's unfair, but it is obviously an advantage. You know, my kids actually listen to this show. I don't think any of them are planning to get into journalism, but I hope they'll consider it.

58:41You know, I - Somebody's gonna have to run Semaphore at some point. Eli, are you listening? Yes, they, yes. And they've definitely picked up a few things wandering around for sure, or helping you answer your emails while you're driving. But, you know, it is true and it says something that the two most successful media companies in America are run mostly by the children, the family members of the families that owned them, right? Both The Times and Fox, of course. Yeah, that's right. Well, that feels like a great place to leave it. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of Mixed Signals from us here at Semaphore.

59:16Our show is expertly produced, as always, by Chris McLeod of Blue Elevator Productions and our very own Josh Billinson. With special thanks to Anna Pizzino, Jules Zern, Chad Lewis, Rachel Oppenheim, Tori Kaur, Garrett Wiley, and Daniel Haift. Our engineer is Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by the great Steve Bone, who I saw at a party recently. What's up, Steve? Our public editor is Shane Smith. Shane, at one point you were supposed to come on our show, and yet you still haven't been on. But Gus had a great time, and he's a friend of yours. Come on our show. Oh, yes. And if you're listening, if you're Shane or otherwise, please follow us in your favorite podcast platform and subscribe on YouTube.

59:58And if you want more, you can always sign up for Semaphore's media newsletter out every Sunday night. And of course, leave us a five-star review. Yeah, please do that. Five stars.