TikTok Stars on the Politicians Begging Them for Exposure

0:28Hey, Mixed Signals listeners. is hosted by Brian Reed, who was the host of the podcast S-Town and the Trojan Horse Affair from Serial and the New York Times. Question Everything is a show about journalism, the media, and the internet, and it really delves into stories about how our messy and fractured information ecosystem is constantly being redefined. The show explores everything from the attacks on the free press, how we know what information to trust, and big tech's role in changing the new media ecosystem and shaping the information that we get in our feeds and in our ears and in our brains.

1:00On this episode of Question Everything, Brian and one of his producers sit down for a really interesting and frank conversation with a group of popular internet creators to talk about their ascendancy becoming important news stops on the press tours of celebrities and politicians. They are all over Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and their videos and clips from the show are constantly reaching more people than many major media outlets. But it raises really interesting questions like who gets control over what kind of content they run? When is the money changing hands? And of course, what do they do when big politicians with an agenda like former Vice President Kamala Harris and RFK Jr.

1:36come calling? The conversation was really interesting and we were so excited to share it with you guys. So I will let Brian and the folks from Question Everything take it from here. And we'll be back later this week with our regularly scheduled Mixed Signals programming.

1:57Jealousy, resentment, admiration. How to describe the way I think plenty of journalists feel about a certain type of creator or influencer on social media. Regular folks who've come up with some kind of shtick for an interview, like eating progressively spicier hot wings with an interviewee or going on a date with them in a chicken shop. A bunch of people have made shows like this and then blown up on TikTok or YouTube or wherever. And now lots of these creators have massive audiences, way bigger than many news outlets. And they're scoring big interviews that journalists used to get with celebrities, business people, politicians, presidential candidates.

2:36Hi, I'm Kamala Harris. You can name the artist. You win five bucks. Now politicians can go do a music quiz with a friendly Instagram personality and show that they're a regular person like the rest of us. Stevie Wonder Tell me about Stevie Wonder Stevie Wonder is one of the greatest musicians who has ever lived from songs in the key of life to teaching us everything we need to know about superstition and he's actually a friend These productions, they aren't journalism but they are filling a space that journalism held for a long time So many people are learning about their leaders their icons through the work of creators like this Take New York City mayoral candidate Zoran Mamdani.

3:15He's made these creators and influencers a core part of his campaign strategy. Sure, there was just a hefty New York Times Magazine piece about him, but Mamdani's also going on shows like Subway Takes, where guests sit with host Kareem Rama between stops on the train and give him a hot take. So what's your take? I should be the mayor. What are you going to do about the price of matcha lattes? 100 % not sure. I can win this campaign if you lower the cost of matzalazes. I can only make the promises I can keep. A lot of people in my industry, reporters, media execs, would kill for an interview to go this viral.

3:52Which is why news bosses are trying to get us, journalists, to be more like creators. The Wall Street Journal recently posted a job listing for a talent coach to help their journalists, quote, build their personal brands to basically turn Wall Street Journal reporters into social media stars. I'm dealing with this too. I am now the proud owner of a ring light and a couple of those crappy wireless lav microphones that go into your phone. I'm being encouraged, rightfully I think, by KCRW's social team to get online, to do video, build a presence. They've also been pushing me to get booked on these shows.

4:25They really want me to get on subway takes. Anyway, today on our show, we have a group of some of the most popular, eclectic TikTok and YouTube creators. Together, they have more than 25 million followers. A single video from one of these creators can get 50 million views. They all started off by just talking to regular people, man on the street. But now they've hosted Kamala Harris, Zora Mamdani, Elizabeth Warren, Mark Zuckerberg, Chapel Roan, Rihanna, Zoe Kravitz, Scarlett Johansson, Ed Sheeran, Jimmy Fallon, Elon Musk's estranged daughter. As a TikTok user and consumer of these videos myself, I've wanted to know more about the making of these things and how influencers approach this huge power they now have.

5:08Do they worry about ethics? Do they give final sign-off on their content over to these celebs and politicians? Who has control? When is money changing hands? And then as a journalist, I'm trying to figure out what our relationship with social media creators should be. We share the same spaces now. We're all in your feeds together, jammed up next to each other. And these are the people that are often winning attention. What can we learn from them? I've wondered if there's some way for creators who snag these interviews to wield their massive reach and access to serve journalistic ends. Though maybe that's just naively.

5:47So you have politicians, some of the most powerful people in the world, begging, pleading to get on your shows. You're turning them down. Because we're not asking them hard-hitting questions. I know. I know. From KCRW and Placement Theory, this is Question Everything. I'm Brian Reed. Stick around.

6:15Is the sparkling wine wine? Or is it Mike? Do you have a juice? We invited our social media stars to our normal spot, the wine shop in Brooklyn. Look it up. One of them was coming straight from an interview he did with Mariah Carey. Another was coming from being a guest on Subway Takes that day. We settled at the bar. How did you come up with your gimmicks? Like, what's the origin story? I'm joking. And I mean it in the best use of that word. Well, I made content online for seven years before anything really worked. We have with us Caleb Simpson. He's been around for a long time. Huge on TikTok and YouTube.

6:54I get the sense he's kind of an OG in this world. People have referred to him as an algorithm hacker. He's so skilled at figuring out what goes viral. The schtick he's known for, he goes out on the street and he asks people, Hi, excuse me. How much do you pay for rent in New York? $16.50. And then Caleb gets these strangers to take him right up to their apartment and show him around. Come on, let's go. Oh, this has a warm, cozy vibe. Yeah, I like it. Where should we start? You can see everything from right here. You don't even have to walk around. It's really bright, which is why we picked it.

7:23And you work from home? I have my desk open right now. And usually he asks to go a step further. Can I test out your bed? He jumps in their bed. Yeah, go. Oh, it's stiff. Super fucking stiff. Before he hit on this apartment tour gimmick, Caleb says he spent years on YouTube just throwing shit against the wall, trying this or that stunt. So one day he thought, you know, no one else will be dumb enough to ask strangers to take them up to their apartments just off the street. So he gave it a go. I asked like 100 people. They said, go fuck yourself. What are you talking about? Eventually one person said yes.

7:55And when I posted all those clips and the home tour, they all went viral in New York City. And then all their friends saw it and they're like, no, let that guy in your house. And I was like, oh, OK, this is different. Caleb says he now makes$100 ,000 a month doing these videos. Internet star number two, Julian Shapiro Barnum. I came from a theater background. I like wanted to be a playwright and actor. He hosts a show called Recess Therapy, where he interviews kids in the park. It's like a sweet reincarnation of kids say the darndest things, at the risk of dating myself. Julian's not long out of college, but during COVID, he couldn't do theater.

8:34So he started making videos with strangers on the street. I was a really bad interviewer. But what that did was it got me obsessed with talking to strangers. It scratched some itch to be able to walk around with a microphone and a camera. Every week I'd go out with my camera and my mic by myself and just interviewing people and interviewing kids. Really instantly clicked. And then I was like, this is my whole life now. If you ever saw that super viral video known as Corn Kid, that was Julian. I really like corn. What do you like about corn? Ever since I was told that corn was real, it tasted good.

9:10Did you think corn wasn't real? But when I tried it a bit better, everything changed. I love cones. Now Julian often has stars on to interview kids with him. Also at the bar, Ananiya Williams. She hosts a show called Gaydar. It's the newest of all the shows here, where she quizzes people with LGBTQ trivia, often related to what's happening in the news. And then depending on how they do, she jokingly rates them as gay, straight, or homophobic. You've been doing Gaydar for a year now. We just celebrated our one-year birthday. Congratulations. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Unlike the others, Ananiya was actually scouted by a production company to host the show.

9:49I've also been a content creator for a long time, too. I've been doing it since the pandemic, like, hosting my comedies, singing drag stuff. Gaydar's funny. Here she is quizzing Zora Mondani. Hi, I'm Ananiya. This is Gaydar. Let the people know your name and your pronouns. Zohran, call me Mondani, he, him. What does WLW mean? Win, loss, win. Okay. It's close. I like the sentiment. It means women loving women. Yeah, it's... Also agree. Which queer group is currently being erased from all federal government websites? Trans people. Yes, they are. Last but not least at the bar, Jack Coyne, host of the TikTok show Trackstar.

10:26The reason we started that show is because music is universal. Like, anyone can talk about music because everyone likes something, some sort of song. Trackstar is also a game show. Jack meets people on the street, puts headphones on them, plays them songs, and they keep guessing the song and the artist, doubling their money each time until they get it wrong. But like there was always the risk that someone could like really run up the score and we'd be fucked because we'd have to pay them. What's the most you've ever had to do? $20 ,000. To who? It hasn't come out yet, but it's coming soon. Jack's the one who came straight to the shop from recording this in Central Park.

11:04All right, before we start with the music, just introduce yourself. Hey, it's Mariah Carey. Luther Vandross. Yes? Luther Vandross. Are you a fan? A huge fan. We sang a duet together, and I sang at Wembley with him. Jack's show, Trackstar, has become a major stop for musicians especially on press tours. And Jack also put out the first interview with Kamala Harris after she became the Democratic presidential nominee last summer, the one I played you earlier. This was at a time when Harris was being criticized for not sitting down for interviews with journalists. track star these other shows they are part of the press circuit now right along with rolling stone vanity fair snl the legacy late night shows and they are clearly on the rise while some of the old places well are dying i mean colbert's late night show just got totally canceled and the night we met at the wine shop jimmy kimmel was going through his whole ordeal getting taken off abc jack the host of the music show he says his show's leanness is its power This is something that I understood was a competitive advantage when we first started the show.

12:10It's like it's not that expensive to make YouTube videos. You don't need to pay a whole staff of that many people to make. Essentially, like when people watch Jimmy Fallon, most people watch it on YouTube. And so then when you're scrolling on YouTube, you're watching my show and Jimmy Fallon's show, and maybe it's the exact same guest on both thumbnails. It's like, which one am I going to choose? The viewer doesn't really see a difference in terms of like the quality of the programming. I don't think. For me, there's a bigger thing here. I feel like I'm, like, my direct community's, like, wildest dream in this regard.

12:41This is the host of the LGBTQ quiz show, Gaydar, Anna Nia. Like, to have a Black trans woman at the front of a show like this, it means a lot to me. You know? And it's cool that it's me. Like, I would love to have my own late-night show, and I would love to keep, like, building on this kind of, like, idea, um, and, like... Like an old-school late-night show. Yeah, I'm inspired by traditional entertainment all the time like i think some of my biggest like comedic inspirations too are like wendy williams and jimmy kimmel and uh oh jimmy kimmel he's back tomorrow thank god even z-way trevor noah like i would love to get to a point like that but i think the market is saying let's the cheap shows are better like it's not we're getting less money from whoever has the money it's like the audience is saying i prefer watching the thing that looks like the thing that i can make with my phone at home you know i don't want i don't can't relate as much to the expensive cameras and the studio and fancy lights like it's much more relatable to see you sit in the park because i could sit in the park put myself in that position because i also have the same means of production it just connects with people in a different way that's one of the things that you think accounts for the audience's connection with what you guys do it's like i can picture myself doing it disagree a little bit or is it more i could picture myself being on it i could picture myself being on it i think the Ditching the studio has done wonders.

14:03This is Julian, who hosts the show with kids in the park, Recess Therapy. It's like, oh, this is all happening in our community and around us. And it's like made it much more accessible. Whereas like if you watch a Fallon thing, that feels like a million miles away. And I think there's something nice about feeling like it's something you could like touch or see or run into. It seems like all of you guys at a certain point started having bigger names on the show, celebrities on the show. Who you're hearing now is Zach St. Louis, producer for our show. He was behind the bar with me. I'm curious how that transition happened and what it looked like.

14:37So with Trackstar, we started getting musicians relatively early. Not like hugely famous musicians, but like professional musicians. We were reached out to, hey, do you want to talk to this person? I think it was more like, yes, this show is about music. It'll be great to talk to a professional musician because they'll like have interesting insights about the songs. I wasn't thinking about what they were gaining from it, that it was part of some PR stunt that they were trying to pull. I was so naive. I was like, oh cool, I'll talk to an artist. And then the big thing was Ed Sheeran's team reached out and Olivia Rodrigo's team reached out at the same time.

15:14And the show was not big, really. Why is Ed Sheeran gonna be on this small internet show? Why is Olivia Rodrigo gonna be on this? And Olivia Rodrigo was like, I watched this show. I think it's great. That was the moment where I was like, oh this is different but it was still months after that that i started to realize that we're being used to some extent say more about that by the by hollywood by record labels by the industry by publicists do you feel like it's being used or it's just like an exchange of or it's like a it's a transaction yeah it's a transaction or a symbiosis it's a transaction but i don't think that it's necessarily equal often our best episodes our biggest episodes are without non-famous people so it's like we don't need to do this with famous people and the way that you're spoken to by people with in a position of power at a hollywood movie studio it's like you're not you're gonna turn this down you're not gonna talk to this person just to promote their movie you're not gonna let them you're not gonna comment in the caption about like that their movie's coming it's like no like why would I do that this is like that's not the point of this show when the show is not to promote celebrities the point of the show is to celebrate music I also think that the heart of at least my show is like having people who you might not know up-and-coming musicians and up-and-coming comedians like I think that's where my show kind of like thrives the most and you've made a really good point about how like sometimes the biggest names aren't the most viral videos.

16:45The reason people come to the show is not because of, it might be because of the guests, but it's also, it's about the content and about like the connection that we're trying to make here. Do you think the big names, like how do you think they fit in? Like why have them at all if like you're doing fine without them? Like how does it fit in the outcome? There is an exchange. There's obviously an exchange, right? Like it's cool to say, I had Chapel Road on my show. I think the exchange is like, Like, they get to promote their new album, music, show, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we get to say, we have Chapel Brown on gaydar.

17:18You know what I mean? I feel like there's this PR world that I'm kind of aware of, and I'm sure you all are more aware of, that is really influencing what we see every day on our feeds, on TV. Like, was there a moment where you're like, oh, these are like the movers kind of behind the scenes? We get 30 requests a day, like Fame Superwoman doing the show. Jack here from Trackstar. And there's only so many episodes we can put out at any given time. So a publicist has reached out about, hey, this star is in this movie. Do you want to talk to them? We have this date available. And I'm like, if you want to do this to promote your movie, it's going to cost X amount of dollars.

17:53This is like speaking to the publicist. Oh, you charge? Since when do you charge to be on the show? Because this other person who came on, you didn't charge when I did it with them. What changed? And it's like nothing changed. It's just every situation is different. The publicist will then say, really, you charge? It's like, well, how much are you charging that movie studio? Because you're emailing me. They're paying you to email me. So what's the difference? Maybe they should stop paying you and they should just pay me instead. Sometimes a movie studio will come to you and say, we'll give you$15 ,000 to talk to this person.

18:27And you have to say, we need money to pay for the rest of the show. So yes. So it's like, it's a constant calculus. It's happening. How often does that happen? We're getting paid to have somebody on the show. Maybe once a month. Probably not even that often. That's awesome. Can't wait to get there. Yes. Are you guys all doing that? No. I've done it a couple times when it's like Netflix is promoting like Rachel Zegler's new animated film. Caught up. And it's like. So yes, I have.

18:58That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Also, it's transphobic to put me on this goddamn stool. Okay. We're all on stool. I'm not kidding. Caleb, do you have any like very awkward stories from like weaseling your way into someone's apartment? I mean, it's all awkward and weird. Just stopping someone on the street and asking them to go in their home is like the weirdest thing you could ever do. Try it sometime. Sometimes I've seen one or two where like the sexual tension is so high. I was actually going to ask you that. Yes. People always think that about you. Don't look at me like that. You know it's true.

19:33People put it on him. They put it on me. They put it on me. I'm like, if you were in the room. He has a je ne sais quoi about him, but I don't think he is, I don't think there's actual sexual tension. I would sign on to that. Yeah, there's not. But come on, you play into it in the edits, too, because you know it's good for the show. No, I've never done that. What are you talking about? I did my own videos, so. You're like spooning with Drew Barrymore in your bed, you know? Well, she wanted that. Yeah, yeah. That was her idea. That was her idea, yeah, totally.

20:07After the break... I have a question for you, too. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, sure. The creators question the journalists.

20:20I'll report it. Welcome back to the show. We're in the wine shop with four TikTok creators. And this is Julian, who hosts the show with kids, Recess Therapy, who says he has a question for me and my producer, Zach. I guess even how we've been approaching this conversation, structurally in some kind of way. I have a question for you two. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, sure. How is this internet culture landing with you two? Like, do you feel annoyed with it? Do you feel skeptical of it, critical? I feel like you have a critical angle a little bit, but I'm interested in like what you're critical of. I feel myself pretty open to like internet culture.

20:59I'm interested in you guys both because I watch your stuff, you're in my feeds, but also you reach audiences. And it's like at least adjacent to what we do as journalists. You know, like I'm not some hard news reporter. Like I tell stories. I'm interested in people. So like if there's an instinct in what you're doing that I relate to, and I'm curious in what journalists can steal from you or learn from you and apply to our work. But like for instance, like we would never let someone pay us to be on our show. Yeah. Like that's just like a no-no. Like it almost like I'm just like, oh my God, like what are you doing when you talk about that?

21:34And so I'm trying to like navigate like there's crossover here. There's stuff to learn from you guys. I didn't mean to point so hard. No, it's fine. Like do any of you ever see your work as journalistic, as adjacent to journalism? Does like the idea of journalism ever come into your work? There have been elements of my show that I've wanted to make more journalistic, like talking to kids about like what's going on in the world. But then it's always gone back to like this doesn't feel right for the kids. specifically like I when the Uvalde shooting happened which felt so tied to the safety of kids I felt really compelled to kind of talk about that in a very safe way with parents involved and I went out and we did a couple conversations and it just didn't feel right and I felt like recess therapy was not the space for that conversation what were you trying I'm very curious it's it's an interesting thing to try I was just so sad and like you know there's always these times where I'm like with kids and the world is so awful and they're aware of it and I want to know what they're thinking about it because they're talking about it and they're thinking about it but then it just never feels right to put that on the internet.

22:43I can maybe I'm not a journalist but there is a journalistic affinity on AR. This is Ananiya. We definitely report legislation or news that concerns the queer community every single episode. Like anything from this Supreme Court decision means this or this right was in question last week because, you know, like all of these things. And I definitely think that, again, it's a part of the heart of Gaydar where we like are trying to educate everyone about queer culture and queer history in a way that to me feels journalistic. Well, the other journalistic sort of endeavor that some of you are taking on is a lot of you have had politicians on your shows.

23:34Again, this is Zach, one of our show's producers. I think, I don't know if you have. Can you all just list every politician that you've had on your show? Just like shout them out. Zero. This is Caleb, the how much is your rent guy. I guess he's the only one here who's never had on a politician. Everyone else has done it. They've had on Elizabeth Warren, Zora Mamdani, Kamala Harris, and local New York politicians. But Caleb hasn't. Honestly, I was shocked to hear about the politicians who've been clamoring to get on these people's shows who they've been saying no to. This is me talking to Caleb, rent guy.

24:08Okay, none. You've never been in a politician's house. Do you think, is it because you're not interested or it's something about your format doesn't jive with politicians? You need to go to the White House, bro. I turned down a lot of politics. I was invited. I turned down the White House. Yeah, me too. I turned down the White House. I think if you want my real answer, it's like the internet is savage and you do one thing and you're berated for it. And I think it's just better to keep it out. Why would I go and make a political stance on something that deviates from the subject matter? It's like I'm entertaining.

24:42That's my objective, to entertain. So you've had politicians come to you and you've turned them down? So many, yeah. So many. Tell me some of them. well there's a man who talks like this and he likes to do stuff you know for the health care system that's bernard bernard bernard no not bernard you're talking about bernie sanders no one knows rfk rfk oh i'm sorry the health care system got it jesus i thought i didn't think the impression was that bad it was a departure yeah it was a departure yeah wait Wait, wait, wait. When RFK Jr. was running for president, he wanted you to come? Correct. Did you consider it at all?

25:21Or you were just like, talk me through, it came in, you were like, what? It came in and there's people around me who are like, this will be good, this will be fun. And then I look at them wide-eyed and I'm like, do you want to make money this year? Do you want to pay for my mom who I support? Do I want to pay rent? I'm like, we say yes to this. We might be saying no to that. So what you want to do here? And I'm like, also, I don't know much about this guy and like what his objectives are or any of this stuff. Do I want to take a stance right now? I don't know. So I said no to Eric Adams. I said no to the president.

25:54Caleb's talking about President Biden. When did the president come to you? I mean, you saw the president all over the internet on TikTok and stuff. Remember that whole season? You're talking about the fall, basically. Like last fall. We almost had Kamala at an elementary school. And it was an intense process. We had to have snipers on rooftops, but we didn't end up doing it. This is Julian here, the kid show host. Like I said no to the White House like three or four times. You're talking about the Biden White House? Yes. Oh, yeah, no. Trump has never reached out to me. Biden was desperate to be liked by the youth, but I was so horrified by the foreign policy at the time that I felt like I just couldn't, I didn't even want to be in the same room or like around that.