Where Crypto Goes From Here Without The Clarity Act, According to Coinbase's Brian Armstrong

21:03But there was several others around tokenized equities and DeFi, et cetera, that I thought were non-starters. And so, you know, our overall goal is to try to make stand up for our customers rights and make crypto trusted and safe and easy to use in the United States. So we can just improve financial services, even if people don't know that they're using crypto, they can benefit from it. And so I felt that the first draft of that Clarity Act missed the mark. I did say that publicly. I'm proud that we stood up for our customers in that moment. they subsequently iterated on it. And the latest draft actually fixed all of the things that I mentioned in that post, including the stablecoin rewards, but also the DeFi, the tokenized equities.

21:42And I believe the last one was around spot market authority for the CFTC. But so, you know, it was definitely the bill was in a much, much better place. Now, just I guess to answer your question about stablecoin rewards, I just just zooming out for the average person here. I mean, our goal is that Americans should be able to earn more money on their money. Pretty simple. And that if you want to hold a stable coin, you could actually earn rewards, which is basically if the underlying dollars are stored in short-term US treasuries, which today pay 3 % to 4 % or so, why shouldn't consumers be able to benefit from that?

22:18Seems like a pretty logical thing. Some of the bank lobbying groups came out against this early on. And I think mainly the reason is competition. They just didn't want to have to compete with stable coins that were paying these higher rates. But they sort of ginned up a lot of fear out there about this somehow creating deposit flight from community banks. It was really the big banks who were pushing this behind the scenes. But of course, people don't have as much sympathy for the big banks as they're making record profits, et cetera. And so they sort of pinned it. They said, it's really for the community banks.

22:52So we did a bunch of research on this to try to see, is there any shred of truth to this or evidence? You know, my skepticism radar was up, but we actually commissioned some studies on this, which found as stable coins have grown, consumer bank deposits have also grown. There doesn't seem to be any correlation. The White House Council of Economic Advisors published their own report, which indicated that there was no correlation between these two things. And in fact, it would be a net harm to society to prevent rewards on stable coins. It kind of defies this simple logic. If you think about it, there's already things like money market funds, which people can put their money into and earn these rates on short-term treasuries.

23:33So money market funds are now like$7 trillion, yet plenty of people store their money in banks as well. And so it sort of defied credulity. And I think it was essentially misinformation published by the bank lobby to try to prevent their competition in the market. So in my view, that was an unethical thing. And most of the Senate got wise to this very quickly and realized what was happening. The last thing I'll just say, there was a couple things that came out at the last minute, which I think was the final nail in the coffin on this argument, which is, number one, we actually came out and said, we're going to provide technology to community banks to integrate stablecoins.

24:10Despite some of the negative reaction from a couple of the big banks, many of the banks, B &Y Mellon and Goldman Sachs and, you know, I think Citi and organizations like Fidelity and like some of the biggest financial institutions in the world came out in support of the Clarity Act, including the stablecoin rewards. And we actually came out and said, well, we're going to provide this technology to community banks if they want to integrate stablecoins. Because I want community banks to win. I want the big banks to win, even the ones who fought against it or lobbied against it. I want them to win too.

24:39You know, Coinbase is actually powering stablecoin integrations for many of the largest banks as well.

24:44Nicole Lapin:Help me understand, though. When I hold USDC on Coinbase, you pay me a reward. So is a reward the same as yield or interest? Is this a tomato-tomato situation? So this gets into lots of legal questions. But for the average person, what it means is that if you're storing a balance on Coinbase and underneath that, the dollars are being put into short-term treasuries that are earning 3.5 % or 4%, some of that can be passed back to you. We call it a reward in the sense that it's like a loyalty program. There's been various debates about the nuances between yield and interest and reward. Interest is something that people typically think of more in a bank account where the banks are doing something called fractional reserve.

25:31They're actually lending out your money underneath, even whether you know it or not, and they don't actually have all of your money there. And so they might pay you interest. So there's different legal definitions of these things. Just to make it super clear that it was not interest on deposits, we call it rewards. And it's just passing along some of the economic upside of where your dollars are being stored underneath.

25:52Nicole Lapin:Some of the banks that you mentioned, like Goldman, you did not mention JP Morgan. You've had some kerfuffles with our friend Jamie Dimon in particular. His beef essentially, or you tell me if I'm missing this, is that if a crypto platform walks like a bank and quacks like a bank, then it needs FDIC insurance and capital requirements and liquidity rules and all that jazz and the Clarity Act elect crypto. What would you say to Jamie today? Obviously, I can't speak for him. But what I would say is that, you know, we we believe in level playing field and we're not engaging in fractional reserve lending.

26:27That's what you need a bank license for. Part of the reason banks are so heavily regulated is it's very risky what they're doing. You know, they're lending out your money. And sometimes banks go insolvent, they go under, you know, we saw that with like Silicon Valley Bank and Signature Bank recently, people say, well, it's FDIC insured, okay, but that's only up to 250k. If people are storing more than that, they're not guaranteed to get that money back. And because banks engage in such risky behavior, that's why they have bank licenses. Stablecoin issuers, uh well certainly coinbase but we we're not an issuer of any stable coin stable coin issuers they don't do fractional reserve so under that genius act which is now the law of the land for stable coins um they're not allowed to do fractional reserve it's a is a 100 reserve so there's no such thing as like a run on the bank in in these regulated stable coins um the money is sitting in short-term u.s treasuries say less than 90 days so it's extremely liquid worst case scenario if everybody wanted to withdraw their stable coins or convert them back to dollars at the exact same moment, they could basically wait 90 days and have all of it back.

27:31Or in reality, there's a super liquid market for short term US debt like that. I think that at the end of the day, a couple of the big banks who happen to have key business lines around this, they frankly just didn't want the competition. And the part that bothered me was that I think they they really kind of went to the government to try to kill their competition. And to me, that's that shouldn't happen in America.

27:53Nicole Lapin:So who should they go to? It sounds like you guys had a little run in at Davos or something like that came to you directly. What they should do is just compete, compete on the level playing field. That's how consumers win in America. You shouldn't go to anyone to try to kill your competition. So I think that's that's not how the game works in the U.S. So the beef has been settled with Jamie. You're ready to hug it out. You know, I don't mind like a little, you know, heated rivalry. I posted like a funny meme about that. But, you know, the reality is We're working with JP Morgan on a variety of things.

28:22I like Jamie Dimon. I've learned a lot from him as a CEO. I think he's been incredibly successful. I don't like his stance on this one particular thing, but that doesn't stop me from overall having admiration for them and being willing to work with them as they've been very willing to work with us.

28:36Nicole Lapin:How does this affect Coinbase stock, if at all? Well, I haven't looked at our stock today. I try to think about these things over the long term. But first, I think we're on a clear path to get regulatory clarity in the US, either through the Senate or these regulators. One or the other, either one works for us. So I think that's going to be fine. But we're also an international company. So, you know, we have offices in the UK. We're the largest provider of crypto services in the UK. We operate out of Singapore for the Asia Pacific. We have an office or some folks in Brazil serving Latin America.

29:12We have an office in the UAE as well in the Middle East, where we've just started issuing for example, tokenized equities, which I think is important. So, you know, the 4 billion people in the world who don't have access to these, a brokerage account, they can actually trade US stocks. And we've started tokenizing US stocks to make them available 24 seven to people all over the world, as long as they have a smartphone. So we're going to keep democratizing access to financial services, making better financial services, both here in the US and abroad. And if there's one thing I've learned, you know, over the last 14 years, starting Coinbase, when we first started out, there was like zero clarity and people didn't even know what crypto was.

29:53And so every year you just kind of have to be persistent and you want to be an educational resource. And every year that I've run Coinbase, somewhere in the world, there's a country that's leaning in and they're ready to embrace it and you can kind of grow your business there. And then every country there's somewhere in the world that's leaning out and they're skeptical, they're not ready yet. And so you basically, and by the way, it keeps flipping. And so any given year, you basically grow your business in the countries that are welcoming it. You basically just try to maintain your business in the countries that are leaning out.

30:24And then you wait a few years and the governments and the attitudes change. And then you go grow in the ones that were reluctant previously.

30:32Nicole Lapin:How often do you check your stock? It's hard not to look at it every couple of days or so. I think it's dangerous actually to get too caught up in short-term stock price fluctuations. What you want to be doing is thinking about what can we be doing that is going to serve our customers better a week from now, a month from now, a year from now, and five years from now? The key things that they want are they want financial services that are simpler, that aren't filled with lots of complex jargon. They want an app that's simple and easy to use. So if you need to update your address or reset your password, it just works.

31:08Don't bother me with the details. They want to have a human being they can contact. Well, I should say, first, they want just to get an answer right away in the app, and they can talk to AI if they want. But they also want to, if they can't get their thing answered right away by AI, they want to be able to talk to a human anytime, 24-7. We offer that. They want to be able to trade every asset class, right? So it's not just about having a boring portfolio with an index fund or something. They are interested in having a balanced portfolio with some crypto assets, some stocks, some commodities, the ability to trade prediction markets in the same app and learn about what's going to happen next in the world.

31:47To have a financial advisor right in their phone and have like a modern day interface for that. And to be able to make payments all over the world instantly, you know, if they need to send money to friends and family. So these are the kinds of things that I try to focus on. And the stock price over the long term takes care of itself.

32:05Nicole Lapin:What do you think the long term prices? You said you have a long term. Do you have a number in mind? On our stock or Bitcoin or what do you mean? Well, I'd love to get into what it is for Bitcoin on your stock. Let's start there. Well, I think we're in very early days. You know, Coinbase is a 40 to 50 billion dollar company, depending on the day. I can see a path for us to 10x from here, which is just we're in the early days of a couple of really big cycles. You know, stable coins, it's still super early. We're seeing massive growth of that year over year. There's something in crypto trading called perpetual futures.

32:38We're in the very early days of that. And we've started to really grow our trading volume share on that. This is all in our part of our, you know, as a public company, you can read about it on our investor website and earnings. Prediction markets, we launched those recently, and they're growing really incredibly quickly. Something like 100 % every quarter recently, you can go look at our financials about that. And there's a big one on the horizon, which I would say is not really priced in yet, which is what we call agentic finance. So everyone is kind of trying to figure out in the world of AI, how are payments and financial services going to work?

33:13And so we're making it easy for anybody to connect their favorite chat AI agent into their Coinbase account if they want to manage it that way, including for trading and payments and all these things. We're also building the infrastructure for any AI agent to have its own financial account. And so we want to bank the AI agents, if you will. And I think there's going to be more AI agents than humans at some point in the not too distant future. And so I think I saw some recently some stat that stablecoin payment volume is now like 17 % of Visa's volume. So it's growing very rapidly. So I think that could be bigger.

33:49If you look at all GDP globally, about half of 1 % of it is flowing on crypto rails. So we're still in the very early days. It would not surprise me if that's 10, 20, 25 % in the coming years, kind of like the early adoption of the internet, how it spread eventually to half of the world. And so in that scenario, I think over the next 5, 10 years, Coinbase as the most trusted crypto company, we've got a lot of room to run.

34:16Nicole Lapin:So not so distant future means what, 2030? earlier than that, that agents will surpass humans? Yeah, I mean, it's always tough to predict the future. But I guess if I had to estimate, you know, some of these agents are ephemeral, right? They may only be up for five minutes, and then they shut down. So it's, it's going to be tough to get like an apples to apples comparison exactly. But I think one way you could look at it is the number of transactions taking place in the economy between agents and and between humans. Now, the average transaction size for agents might be much smaller. So I think then you would look at total transaction volume for agents versus humans.

34:59I mean, if you want me to go out on a limb and make a wild prediction, I think within certainly within five to 10 years, I think the agentic economy could be larger than the human economy in terms of payment volume. That would be an interesting thing to go see. Okay, let's keep with our crystal ball for a

35:16Nicole Lapin:moment and go into Bitcoin. You said that Bitcoin hits 400 ,000 by 2030. Is that still your price? I think I have said that publicly before. Yes, I would stand by that. I mean, it's at near 63 ,000 this summer, down by half of its high. Can you help me with the math? How do we back into the 400K number? Okay, so obviously, past performance does not predict the future or any of that. So these are all speculations, right? I mean, I think anybody who tells you they can perfectly predict these things, you shouldn't listen to, right? So this is just me hypothesizing. But yeah, I think if you look at the history of Bitcoin, it has been the best performing asset over the last 10 years or so.

35:56And it tends to go through these four-year cycles. I won't get into the details of this, unless you want to, but there's something about the supply of new Bitcoin that's created, which gets cut in half roughly every four years. And And what we see is there's periods of run up around those dates. We also see periods of contraction, which usually last about a year. This last cycle, it's been about a year so far. And it was down at 63. And now it's starting to tick back up. So if it follows a similar pattern again, I could see a path for us to get to, say, 3x its prior all-time high by 2030, something like that.

36:35Is it guaranteed? No, for sure. It's not. But I think that's a if it follows a similar pattern, you know, you could you could imagine that. And if people just go Google, you know, Bitcoin for your four year cycle or something like that, they could probably find some different thoughts people have on it.

36:50Nicole Lapin:Yeah. Some back of the napkin math. Bitcoin has to grow. Sounds like 50 percent a year on average for four years to get there. So that's 2030. You're staying with the 400 ,000 number. What about the end of this year? Oh, man. I mean, shorter term is much harder to predict. I would say, I don't know. I think my guess, again, these are all guesses. My guess is we've hit the bottom of this last cycle and that we could be trending up a little bit, I don't know, 80 to 90 or something like that by the end of the year. It's hard to say. And do you do any price targets or do you think about what the price target would be for other coins, Ethereum?

37:27In general, we don't publish price targets. You know, if you're asking me just for fun on a podcast, I don't mind riffing on it.

37:33Nicole Lapin:Let's riff. Love to get your thought. Like, where would you see Ethereum or Solana or XRP? I don't think I have such a clear thesis on that. And also, you know, we work with all the different chains out there. So I have to be a little bit careful. We're a neutral platform in terms of which blockchains we work with. And I probably will offend somebody no matter what I say on that. Bitcoin is considered more neutral, right? Because there's not a specific team behind it. But yeah, I'll decline to answer that one. Oftentimes, Bitcoin, Ethereum, Solana may move somewhat together. And like I said, my guess here is that we've hit the bottom of this current cycle a little bit earlier this year.

38:11But yeah, we'll see what happens by the end of the year. Hopefully it's up a bit. OK.

38:15Nicole Lapin:Something else that I wanted to ask you about was Bitcoin for mortgages. You have a product now that lets you use Bitcoin to buy a house. Why do you think like first time homebuyers should pledge Bitcoin instead of selling some of it to make a down payment? So we have lots of customers and probably many of your listeners have a little bit of Bitcoin and it's become a material part of their net worth. And so they were asking us, how can I use this as collateral to, you know, I don't want to sell my Bitcoin. I'm bullish on it long term as I am, but I want to use it as collateral to see if I can get a better rate on a mortgage to buy a home.

38:54And we partnered with a company called Better, which has a mortgage product. And we allowed people to pledge their Bitcoin as collateral to do that. So it's been a good success so far. We've had a number of people out there using it. I don't think we've disclosed the exact number publicly. But what's great is that you can get a very quick answer. You know, any of your listeners who've gone through the process of getting a mortgage, you know, in the old fashioned way, it can be a little bit of a difficult experience, right? There's lots of paperwork. There's insurance. There's appraisals. There's a lot of huge stacks of forms to sign.

39:31And it does feel a bit antiquated. And so I think Better has done a good job of making this product where you can get a pretty clear answer back relatively quickly about what rate you would get. And we've integrated with them to allow people to use their crypto assets. So it's just one more example of how crypto is helping update the financial system. And my hope is that anybody can actually just on their phone, you know, almost like put it in an address or take a picture of this house and like get a quote back within a few minutes with a with a fair and reasonable rate. I think that would be good for the world.

40:00Nicole Lapin:Should we also, though, clarify that, you know, volatility can hurt you to have coins drop, you still owe that higher rate. It seems risky to me. I get a little concerned for a first time buyer in that way. So who's the type of person that this actually works for? It's a relatively conservative loan to value ratio there. We don't want people to take any unnecessary risk with it. But obviously, like like any financial product, you know, read the read the terms closely. There's so much reading that you're assigning to us, Brian. We've got some S1s to read. We've got a lot of terms and conditions.

40:33Nicole Lapin:I want to, before we thank you for joining us on this really important day, stablecoins, you've talked about growing into this huge$300 billion plus market. It's become the part of crypto. It feels like to me, you tell me if I'm wrong, that both Washington and Wall Street actually got pretty comfortable with. So if I'm listening and I'm scared of crypto's volatility, what does a normal person actually do with one? How to get started? Well, you're right that stable coins are, as the name would indicate, they're not volatile. They're just linked to an underlying dollar that's held securely. But of course, you can get these rewards, which are attractive to many people.

41:14And then the other reason people want it is that they can make payments anywhere in the world. again, instantly less than one second, less than one cent to any country in the world. And there's no other payment rail that can actually do that, all three of those things. So the easiest way to get started is really just create a Coinbase account. And you can, from your debit card or your bank link, you deposit some dollars and convert it into stable coins. And now you're operating in this new economy that things are fast, cheap, and global. And so that's usually the best way for people to get started.

41:43We also offer Coinbase One Credit Card, for instance, which I think is the best card on the market. If people want to spend their crypto at various merchants and get rewards back that way, they can get up to 4 % back on every purchase and get it in stablecoins, in Bitcoin, and hopefully eventually in stocks or whatever other asset they want to save in. And so that's a pretty cool feature as well, where not every merchant in the world obviously accepts stablecoins yet. But if you have a Coinbase One card, you can spend your stablecoins. And from your point of view, it's great. Maybe eventually we'll be able to go convince that merchant to accept stable coins directly and benefit themselves as well.

42:20Nicole Lapin:I mean, right now, it seems like a lot of the volume is traders shuffling money between exchanges for stable coins. People aren't paying rent with it. When do you think that actually happens? What has to change there first? It tends to be with every new technology. The early adopters of it are people who have the highest unmet need, you might say, right? It's basically the people who have the biggest pain point. So actually, the biggest area of growth for stable coins has been business to business cross-border payments, which is kind of a mouthful. But what that basically means is there's somebody who's running their shop and they need to buy goods.

42:57Sometimes it's from another country like Asia or Europe. And this is a very antiquated, slow, underserved area of the market. And so they've actually been the biggest adopters of stable coins early on. there are people moving it between crypto trading venues and exchanges that that is true there's people using it in defi um there's actually one of the one another really big area of growth has been stablecoin backed credit cards you can see some of the graphs for that online that's been that's been growing really fast so yeah i think that um payments are kind of like water they flow to the path of least resistance and so stablecoins are just more efficient rails speed cost and and the number of countries they can reach.

43:38And so I would expect over the next five to 10 years, you're just going to see a larger and larger fraction of global GDP run on stablecoin rails. It's just better for everybody involved.

43:48Nicole Lapin:So in the next five to 10 years, I know I'm trying to get you to be a fortune teller, but if stablecoins become the default, when do you think something like that happens in the way that people move money around the world? And then what happens to traditional banks then? Yeah, well, I think that there's not going to be one moment where it happens. It'll be gradual. But I think stablecoins have been growing something like RITA5X over the last few years. And so they're growing quite quickly year over year. I think banks are going to integrate stablecoins. I mean, it's already happening. We're helping community banks do it.

44:20We're helping the biggest banks in the world do it by selling them technology solutions like custody and payment rails and APIs and things like that. So I think the banks are going to be major innovators and users of stable coins.

44:36Nicole Lapin:So here's what I'm curious about. The piece of the bill that threatened your USDC rewards just died with it. So in a strange way, today protected a massive Coinbase revenue line. How do you actually feel about that? It survives because the Genius Act for stable coins did pass through Congress last year. And actually, that act was even slightly more permissive than what was in the latest Clarity Act. So not only does it survive, it thrives under the existing law of the land. Yeah. I mean, you've spent, what, hundreds of millions, at least$100 million on this. With this disappointment today, what do you think is next?

45:19Well, we're going to keep showing up on policy and advocacy. Part of it, money definitely helps. We have an amazing team. We've donated to some groups like Fairshake that have helped elect pro-crypto candidates in different places around the world. But I think more and more impactful has actually been the grassroots movement. These organizations like StandWithCrypto.org, they've got millions of voters now who are raising their hands and saying they want clear rules in America for crypto. There's something like 50 million Americans who've used crypto at this point. So it's a massive voting block.

45:51And we're helping them get organized by funding groups like StandWithCrypto.org. People should go there if they want to help elect pro-crypto candidates or find out which of the representatives are pro or against crypto. So the answer is we're just going to keep doing what we've always been doing, which is standing up for our customers' rights, trying to get clear rules. We're not really deterred by short-term setbacks. Like I said, in every country of the world where we operate in any given year, there's someone who's leaning out, who's someone who's leaning in. We just have longevity and we keep showing up and eventually things get to the right place.

46:22So that's what we'll do in the wake of the Clarity Act. I think the regulators are going to publish the rules here within weeks or start doing that rulemaking process, which will give us the clarity we need.

46:31Nicole Lapin:We all need some clarity for sure. It's a really well-named bill, by the way. A lot of them are not so much, but this one, we do need clarity. I mean, I'm just intellectually curious. During the pandemic, you were like, we're an apolitical company recently. You saw Jensen with the all-in guys say the same type of thing. So how do you think about that in the midst of all this policy work that you're doing? What do you mean by having a company be apolitical, but then also all of us? Well, I think it's important that companies now, yeah, they are bipartisan or apolitical. The distinction I make is that, you know, we call it mission focused, which basically means if it's part of the mission of the company, which in our case is increasing economic freedom in the world and using crypto to do that, if it's part of the mission of the company, then it's fine.

47:17Go have a policy advocacy arm to get laws passed or regulatory clarity, do it in a bipartisan way. So that's what we do, for instance, with these organizations that we fund. But other issues that are not related to the mission that are political hot button issues, we really just don't talk about it at work. It's fine if people want to do that in their personal lives. They can do it outside of work. I think it's a distraction to bring it into work. We were early in taking that stance in 2021 when it was sort of this cultural moment that got very heated. And it created a little bit of a backlash and we got some negative articles, but that doesn't bother me.

47:58I think in hindsight, it was one of the best things we ever did as a company. And it's really in some ways gratifying to see it become more of a common stance today, like you mentioned with Jensen saying it live on stage recently.

48:08Nicole Lapin:We end all of our episodes, Brian, by asking our guests for a final tip that listeners can take straight to the bank or I guess the crypto exchange in this one. For a person who owns a little bit of crypto, maybe is underwater and is nervous right now, what's one move that you would tell them to think about making? I would say, you know, hold through the crypto cycles. You know, the worst thing you can do is kind of panic sell at the bottom or those kinds of things. It's better to take a longer term approach. And seeing many of these cycles now in the last 14 years running Coinbase, I can tell you even people who bought the peak and rode it down to the trough, when they just waited for the next cycle, they were super happy.

48:48So it's good to take a long-term view on these things and not let the day-to-day movements of the market distract you and make you worried and prevent you from doing important things in the world.

49:00Nicole Lapin:So put your blinders on. How often would you check? Probably less often than you check your stock. If you're able to check it periodically and it doesn't cause you stress or it doesn't cause you to take actions which you later regret, then I'd say, that's fine. It's kind of like social media or eating sugar or something like that, right? You want to make sure you're doing it in healthy amounts. But if it's, yeah, if it's causing you to make, take trading decisions that you later regret, then it might be better just to not check it more than once a quarter or something like that. Or, you know, you can outsource it to your AI advisor in the app or something like that.

49:36So I think these can help people build wealth for the long-term. And that's ultimately what we're trying to do with our mission. We're trying to increase economic freedom in the world. We're trying to make better financial services for everyone. So if you have a smartphone, you can get access to all of these things, a great trading portfolio, faster, cheaper payments, a good loan. And if we can do that, we're going to be in a happy place. I'll feel very proud of that.

50:01Nicole Lapin:Let's do it. And that's a thing that I'm really bullish on with the AI is not as emotional as us. That's for sure. Yeah, I like that it takes some of the, really, there's a psychology to investing. You don't want to chase the highs. You don't want to panic sell the lows. You want to be a bit of a contrarian thinker at times. What's something that I think could be true or will be true in the future that most people haven't thought of yet? Those are all kind of fun games. And then, you know, with most of your portfolio, just have a good diversification so that you're not just speculating with it.

50:33We want to help people build wealth for the long term and not speculate too much. If you want to do that with like 10 percent or some reasonable amount of your portfolio, I think that's totally fine. And but I wouldn't do it with the majority. And that's where I see people tend to do well over the long term.

50:50Nicole Lapin:Buy low, sell high. It's just so hard when everything's. I mean, that is really the funny part about investing is when Bitcoin is hitting all time highs, I'm like, oh, I just wish it would go down a little bit so I could buy again. You know, when it's hitting lows, and that would probably be the perfect time to buy it. I'm like, I don't know, it's going down like the sentiment is so low. So it's really funny. The human psychology is really what you're trying to be aware of and then overcome in certain ways to do the opposite of what a certain part of your brain that does fight or flight might be thinking.

51:23That's a fun thing to think about, like observing your brain from afar and noticing when it does something unhelpful.

51:29Nicole Lapin:Yeah, the fight, flight, freeze situation with investing is not ideal. But thank you, Brian, for creating tools to help us combat sometimes ourselves. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on.