A cure for the 20 year flaky foot (with Amanda Wakeley)

0:00Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later.

0:40Welcome to Off Air with Jane and Fee on a day of great portent. I've got a World Cup tingle, Fee. Have you? Where do I go to for help? I don't know. So we've got the England-Argentina game coming our way. How could you say it so lightly? And what are you eating? Where will you be? Well, I'll be round at my friend's house and I'm going to take a, I was going to say, a rather cheap bottle of cremel because I don't want to go too far just in case we're in buckets at the end. And I will have eaten a considerable carbo load of pasta with homemade rocket pesto before I come out. Lovely. Is that all right?

1:19That's so civilised. What are you eating? So I think we're going to be having button milk chicken with a couple of fresh lettuce leaves shoved into a brioche bun. just because, I don't know why, I looked in the fridge this morning and I can just about manage that. And it will be very much a family affair as well. I think we're going out. Oh, no. Well, we're both going out. Oh, no, I'm going out, you're staying in. Do you know what? Can I just ask you this? Why is there a little bit of me that hopes we are? I think it's because, and I understand that feeling, it's because I can't bear the idea of them not winning the final.

1:55It's too much, isn't it? That would be too much. That really would be too much. And do you know what was interesting? I was watching the France-Spain game last night or some of it. Oh, my gosh. What happened? Well, the French didn't appear to care, did they? They were flabby from the outset. Really flat. Yeah, it was extraordinary. And I will say that I don't think this current iteration of the England team will play like that. They'll certainly have a go. Well, we've gone in a different direction, haven't we? Because actually we were pretty rubbish in our opening games and a little bit leaden.

2:26and actually we've picked up the pace quite a lot and I think France has almost done exactly the opposite. It was glorious from the beginning. But yes, last night it was almost as if they'd all been out too late or they'd all had a row. It was weird, wasn't it? And that's not to take anything away from Spain because I think they were quite bullish. Well, they've just been a bit sneaky in the Spanish. Just quietly getting on with it. Oh, that's typical of foreigners. Absolutely typical. Anyway, hopes and dreams. I tell you what, just one little bugbear of mine. I will object when I hear people say, it's the first time England have got to the World Cup final since 1966.

3:06It's not women. It isn't. Women, women, women. It isn't the first time. Stop saying that. Yeah, no, don't worry, darling. Take a deep breath. Take a very deep breath. I know that England women lost in the World Cup final, but they made it. They got there and it wasn't that long ago. So can we stop saying that, please? Yeah. Do you know what? The other interesting thing was that last night after the Spain-France result, quite a few people were pinging on WhatsApps that I'm in, saying exactly the same thing about how France would just go off now. Back in France, Paris would just go off because there have been so many riots so far after successful triumphant matches at the World Cup.

3:46And it does make you think, actually, the British fan, the English fan, I'm so sorry, the English fan has got better. And France, last night, as far as I know, there wasn't as much trouble as there had been before. I know, but there shouldn't be any trouble. No, there shouldn't be any trouble at all. And also, it's weird when you have trouble when you win. Win, it's just bonkers. But everybody was just going, oh, my God, Paris will be on fire tonight. The expectation is that after a France game, shit goes down. Yeah, and we just have to accept it, and we should never get to the stage of accepting any kind of street trouble or violence.

4:21By the way... Can you say street trouble again? Because that was lovely. Street trouble. Street trouble. We've had trouble on our street, as regular listeners will know. Anyway, I do... Well, they don't know the half of it. No, actually, they don't. On your street. We mustn't talk about him. He's been evicted. It took nine years. It did, actually. I tell you what, if you get Jane in a quiet moment in an airport lounge or on a train, just ask her about our street. It's mind-boggling. Nine years. And the involvement of the council, the MP. and a very active and assertive street group on WhatsApp.

4:53Anyway, he's no longer with us, and thank God for that. I actually think there has been trouble in the States involving England fans, but it's been underreported because we're winning. That is the God's honest truth. Is it? Yes, I mean, I actually do think there has been a bit of an issue, and I'm sorry to say it, but Argentina, it's a potential flashpoint. Oh, my word, it's just a touch. I really hope that nothing does go rogue tonight. OK, so score predictions. Sorry, my tingle's so bad I don't want to go there. Mystic Garver's left for a summer holiday that will probably be permanent. So I just don't...

5:31Do you know what I really do hope, and I hope it very fervently, is that no player gets into a bit of penalty bother and is derided for that. So let's just hope that doesn't happen. And you know that these days you can get very effective things for your tingles. Well, I hear about it, but I can never seem to find it at the chemist. The lake in Austria has cured my flaky foot. Has it? Yes. That's been a long-term condition. You've been very plucky about. I've had a flaky foot. Only one, only one, since I have my daughter. She's 18 now. And nothing, nothing has cured it. And I've tried absolutely everything.

6:16It's not been an invasive thing, but it's just not been very nice. And also, it's just very weird. Why one and not the other? Well, it's extraordinary. Is it your right or your left? It's my left. OK. And it just cleared up after a week's swimming in the lake. Right. OK. Well, you might want to write a book about that, flaky foot syndrome and how you eventually overcame it. Well, you could do the introduction, talk about your tingles. Oh, what's happened? I don't know. But you've got a lovely email about Austria. Well, a very nice email about Austria. This one comes from Chris, who says, I was delighted to have these conversations about the Werthersee.

6:56My mother was Austrian. I have a large family who live in that beautiful area. I visit at least twice a year, often at Easter, where all the old country traditions are still practised, and in the autumn to enjoy the spectacular autumn colours. But this year it is a summer holiday with two daughters, sons-in-law and five young grandchildren. and we will be spending many hours in the clear waters of the Werther Sea. And Jane, there is a million miles difference between a Finder's breaded chicken and a delicious Austrian schnitzel. There is there. Yes, there is. There just is, Jane. OK, next time I fine dine, I'm going to order a chicken schnitzel to find out exactly what the big fuss is.

7:38Well, you should. The place that we go to for our Christmas dinners does a very nice schnitzel. Oh, yes. And Rosie, our executive producer's fiancé's restaurant, there are two of them now in London, even though they are Italian, their schnitzels are to die for. And how does he do his schnitzel? They're called cotoletta.

8:06Cotoletta. Go for it. Cotoletta. Yes. And, yeah, it's just my breaded chicken. Well, that's exactly my point, Rosie. It's breaded chicken. Yeah, but it's delicious. It is different. It's nice. It's really lovely. Do you know what it involves? A lot of butter. There you go. You won't get that with Finder's. No. And we did have some cheap schnitzels last week, and the difference between a cheap schnitzel and a decent schnitzel is quite high as well. I just think if all of the ingredients are lovely, for me, it's a pretty perfect meal. It's got crunch, it's got salt, it's got a little bit of protein.

8:47It's just, you never think you're going to finish a schnitzel because they're usually the size of your head, but you always do. So then you can pop it in a sandwich the day after. That's so true, if there is some left. Are they chicken shaped? No, it's not a comedy food item. But also Austrian schnitzel is usually veal, I think I'm right in saying, and the chicken schnitzel is a kind of variation. Right. But also you can get, these days, wherever you can get a chicken or veal, schnitzel, you'll be offered some kind of sweet potato or jackfruit or vegan alternative. Kevin's above. I was reading an article about healthy breakfasts, I think it was yesterday or the day before, and it said a great way to start the day is Greek yoghurt.

9:33Well, two of my late life discoveries have been spicy margaritas and Greek yoghurt. And I think I might like to end my days. Have you ever had them together? Well, I will be doing in my 10th decade if I've got anything to do with it and if I'm spared. But it said this article, this chap, it was emphasising the importance of Greek yoghurt and how wonderful it was for you. And you should start every day with 150 grams of Greek yoghurt. I thought, well, that sounds a lot. So this morning I got my tub of Greek yoghurt out of the fridge. I thought, just out of interest, I'll weigh, you know, I'll find out how much 100.

10:06It's hardly anything. It's like a dollop and a half. And I've been throwing it into the bowl, adding granola, my cacao nibs. Oh, yes, your cacao nibs. Still don't know what they are. And then peaches I have as well, peach slice, a bit of honey, and I'm set up for the day. Sometimes I have two bowls. So I'm really set up for the day. So I was surprised by how little of the Greek yoghurt was actually required to make you a physiological powerhouse. So I'm going to try and stick to that limit of 150. And what are you allowed to call Greek yoghurt Greek yoghurt if you make it in, let's say, Somerset?

10:44No, because they have to call it Greek-style yoghurt. Oh, OK. Be wary of that. Right, but presumably Greek-style yoghurt is exactly the same as Greek yoghurt, it's just you're not allowed to call it Greek yoghurt. Well, it's got nothing to do with Greece. No, but it would have the same benefits in your gut biome. Well, it didn't say that in the article. OK. Judith, who regularly corresponds from the Lake District... But all of those things that... So sorry, just to go back to this, just to be clear, Jane, just to be clear. So if you go down the supermarket aisle and you get to yogurts, you're saying that there is genuinely a difference in the ingredients in Greek-style yoghurt and Greek yoghurt.

11:19Well, I don't know, because a bit like our colleague Rosie trying to discuss the chicken schnitzel available in her partner's restaurants, I'm not an expert on Greek yoghurt, But I do think there's a reason why all the experts recommend Greek yoghurt and not Greek style yoghurt. Perhaps an expert will contact the programme and tell us. God, we've been waiting decades for an expert to contact us. Briefly, I want to mention Judith, who says she does buy chicory at least once a month. I was just baffled by this. It's delicious in salads or braised. It's slightly bitter, but very versatile. We spend quite a lot of time in France.

11:58And yes, it is always available there. I mean, I just find that slightly bizarre. My go-to regular grocery is booths. Well, we hear a lot about booths. It is the Waitrose of the North, isn't it? It is. And it still has proper people serving on, proper conveyor belts. And there's a lot to be said for that. Kate's is just angry about something. And I like people who are just, you know, they've just got something that they can't put up with it anymore. Long-time listener from East West Buckinghamshire. I did email in the past about losing my skirt in the House of Commons. Can we all agree that saying co-ord when referring to a top and bottom of clothing that match is beyond annoying?

12:37Zip it, influencers. Stop it. It's wanky. Right. Yep. I'm not a big fan of the co-ord anyway. I just always think whatever variety it is, you just look like you're in your PJs. Good time to reference our guest today. Who is it? It's Amanda Wakeley. Designer, fashion designer, style guru and an interesting woman. She's going to tell us all about how we can, well, establish a capsule wardrobe. Oh gosh. No, this is important. And venture forth and also buy properly. Now, I had a funny arrival today in the post of, actually it was yesterday, of a purchase that I must have seen online somewhere of a dress that looked, it would be all right.

13:27It was quite moderately priced. I should have known better. The material fit, I don't know what it's made of. I put it on and my daughter went, and then she felt it and it was just oh god you've got to be wary haven't you you have to be very wary it did look all right in the picture yeah i know exactly what you mean and i did a very similar thing with the summer dress that when it arrived because i was looking for something that had a bit of uh shape to it so you know a kind of slightly come in amanda you've got your work cut out gathered uh waist and then a nice kind of a-line skirt to it and of course they can make any dress appear like that in the photographs.

14:05When it arrived, no joke, it was made from the same fabric as incredibly cheap tents. No, well, it was the same. I think I could safely spend the night in the countryside under this dress. It's so weird, isn't it? I'm not sure I should wear it. You've just got a job lot of tenting material, very, very flimsy tenting material that hasn't really passed the tenting test and you've decided to make dresses out of it. But also you just knew that it was going to create the most unholy static cling if you walked anywhere at speed. Oh, God, I'll be setting off alarms all over East West Kentington if I wear this thing in public.

14:41Anyway, it needs taking up, but you did say yesterday that... I can do your hemming for you. Yeah, I'll bring it in. OK. I really do like a little bit of hemming, actually, of an evening whilst watching something completely daft. I did find on Sunday evening that I just couldn't find anything to watch. I wanted something that was suitably end-of-the-weekend type stuff. And I came across Razor Ruddick's... We're back with Big Dunk. Yeah. Celebrity escape to the country. Oh, my God. Just if you've got half an hour of your life that you don't mind never getting back, then indulge in that. It's on the iPlayer.

15:22Oh, it's just quite something, Jane. Quite something. I mean, if a new neighbour moved in and said, hello, I'm Razor Ruddick, I'd think, oh, my God. I'd certainly reactivate our street WhatsApp group, that's for sure. Have you seen, I don't know why, I think I might watch more of it, I'm not sure, The Dark on ITVX. Oh, gosh, no, I'd never go for something with that kind of title, Jane. It is so unremittingly bleak. God, it's bleak. It's set in Scotland. I mean, the countryside's lovely, but it's quite bleak. And there's dead bodies everywhere. And the detective, it goes, she's beyond taciturn.

16:01It's just... Oh, deary me. Is that the one where the couple have moved from London and we don't quite know why and they've pitched up in the Scottish Highlands? No. OK. Well, it's the same kind of thing. Right, well, that's two fantastic non-recommendations from us. There's absolutely nothing on television at the moment because of the World Cup and the sport and the fact that it's summer. And all of the streaming channels are doing that naughty thing where they say new series. what they mean is new to them and quite often it does take me about 20 minutes to remember whether or not I've watched something before and I've been diddled twice on that front I sat through 20 minutes of Scrublands thinking because Scrublands was amazing it's based on the Chris Hamill book yes thank you and I thought oh this is absolutely dreamy this is before I had to turn to Neil Razor Ruddock for my company and yeah it's not a new series no I'm increasingly thinking I might have to turn to Little House on the Prairie.

17:02No, don't ever do that. Well, I don't know, but I love the original. Did you? And the guy who played the dad was, I think, one of my first crushes along with David Soule. And Prince Andrew. Yeah, we try not to talk about that. No, no. I think I was wrong about him, obviously, but I think I'm actually probably a bit wrong about David Soule. I think you were a bit wrong about David Soule. But the guy from Little House on the Prairie. Are we sure? Well, he's not with us anymore. Rosie's going to do some checking. Oh, dear. Do you know what, I hated Little House on the Prairie. My mum really, really loved the books, and so we were allowed to watch the TV series.

17:36Do you know what, I just remember thinking it was so... It was quite dark, wasn't it? It had some themes in it that were... Yes, I mean, I liked it in many... Well, partly because I loved the guy who played Charles Ingalls. Michael Landon, I think his name was. And Pa was always getting his fiddle out at times of crisis. And people would have a little dance. and there was the Olsen, the spoilt brat girl called Olsen from the shop. Do you remember? And there he is, Michael Landon. He was a beautiful man, actually. Lovely to have you. I think it was all of the dungarees. I just didn't like the fashion in it.

18:11He didn't wear dungarees. He wore tweedy trousers with a pinkish shirt and braces. There we are. Okay, could you find some dungarees in Little House on the Prairie? But they had neighbours called the Garvies. Oh, I guess. And I used to really like that. There's usually something. Personal that's pulled you in. Because I'd never heard the name on telly before, so I was excited. Okay. I just don't remember it being a particularly kind of engaging or... No, it was being... Youthful. Yeah. Rosie's just mouthed the word boring at me. Oh, she... And that's what I was searching for. She'd rather talk about breaded chicken.

18:47Can we just say that I wasn't wrong in the end of the feast as we know it, because Nell has said, after 40-plus years enjoying feasts. Imagine my horror at biting into the first of a new box and finding them changed beyond all recognition. Walls have created this awful sickly replacement and are selling them as feasts. But the hive always turns up positivity. After signing the petition to ask for the restoring of the original, I read with interest that Aldi sell a very similar feast. It's called Fiesta. We see what you've done there. There was a lot of difference there. And the lovely lady at Aldi told me that they've had to stock up because the Fiestas have become so popular.

19:28So there we go. Let's just all buy the Fiesta. There was no need to change the feast. Why do they change anything? I don't know, Jane, but it's just very annoying and sometimes you think we're falling for it because then it generates publicity and then they re-release the old one. I hope it's not that. No, I really hope not. Quick shout-out to Lorna, who is recovering from brain surgery. She had it last Monday. She's been discharged from the excellent, I believe it's excellent, the Walton Centre in Liverpool and it's been a difficult week though, she says, of sickness, pain and despair, old Lorna.

20:01I was still very poorly but I definitely feel brighter this week. I can't begin to tell you how much it cheered me to listen to you both last night reunited after your holidays especially as I never normally miss an episode but now I am a couple of weeks behind. Well, look, we're sending lots of love to you and I hope you continue your recovery, Lorna. But it's a really tough one, Matt. So let's just hope you can relax and, I don't know, just rejuvenate yourself in a gentle kind of way. And do you know what, actually? A friend of mine last year, and she won't mind me telling this story, had to have brain surgery.

20:37She had a brain tumour. Just a horrible, horrible, horrible thing to happen to her. And actually she said something so wise about the recovery of it that actually in our society we always want to wish people a speedy recovery, but with something like a brain injury what we should be wishing people is the opportunity to take as much time as it takes for them to recover you know this notion that oh you must get better really quickly really quickly and then you get back and you get back and you get back you know quite often with a brain injury getting back is actually not possible either you'll you'll go back to a changed place but i thought gosh what a fantastic thing to point out to people i'd never thought of that before and I think it's quite a valuable thing to hang on to in your head yeah well it should really be get well in your own time yes take as long as you need get well soon yeah not you know get back to this get back to this I mean that can't be helpful no at all so yeah we send you lots and lots of love um rabbits uh Leo says uh my grandmother Celia was evacuated to the country during the war uh with my father and uncles she bought a rabbit from a farmer and posted it to my great-aunt Lily, who screamed when she opened the package because of the eyes looking back at her.

21:51They never resolved this falling out and could never be invited to the same event. That's quite drastic, isn't it? It's quite drastic. Leo says there was probably a lot more to this story, but I'm both amused and saddened by it. Yes, there probably is more to it, but, you know, nothing wrong with bearing a grudge, is there? I don't know, I will not go to that christening if she's going to be there because of that rabbit she sent me. Fair enough. Yesterday you introduced many of us to the Cliff Richard classic. Hellos. Goodbye, Sam. Hello, Samantha. Hello, Samantha. Have you got the lyrics with you?

22:30No. Oh, damn, I haven't got my... Hang on, telephonic device. Press pause, please, Rosie. Shall I find it on mine? Yeah, you'll find it, yeah.

22:42Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions, requires iPhone 11 or later.

23:14We have found the words to Cliff Richards. I looked it up. 1970 hit. I thought it was the 60s, but no, we'd entered the 1970s and Cliff had a big hit with Goodbye Sam, Hello Samantha, in which a jaunty young man laments his lost male friendships because he's about for you to plunge into the world of womanhood. Goodbye Sam, Hello Samantha. Goodbye Sam, Hello Samantha. Yes, we get the message. Sam, I'm leaving the gang so don't come round for me on Sunday Joe, I want you to know I'll have to skip the game on Monday Had a whole lot of fun but now the time has come I need the sweet touch of a woman's love Goodbye Sam Hello Samantha Goodbye Joe Hello Joanne There are some other nuggets here Goodbye Lou Hello Louise

24:10This is great There's something about playing pool, not being able to play pool anymore. Terrible, terrible tragedy men have to live through, Jane. Guys, you ought to get wise. There's more to the world than pool and fishing. And I regret to say there's no G there. As the late, great Steve Wright would have said, no G. No G. There's more to the world than pool and fishing. Easy riding is fine, but look around, see what you're missing. Cliff, you've really let yourself down here. Easy riding, missing, and then girls are waiting in line. Oh, dear. You've seen Cliff Richard recently. Does he still do this at one of his gigs?

24:58I don't think he does. I just think he does, does he? No, but it's just a little... It just reminds us of a different time. The songwriters here, people responsible, Geoffrey Stevens, Mitch Murray and Peter Callender. Right, Peter Callender rings a bell. Does he? Yeah, I might look him up. Actually, I'll get Razzie to look him up. I don't want too many elderly men on my search engine. Right, final one from me, Alison McLeod. Greetings from Canterbury. Long-time listener, first-time emailer in response to Eve's comment about nobody making pastry. What did Eve say? Oh, she's been so controversial.

25:40Yeah, she really has. I make pastry. It takes about 10 minutes and tastes amazing. We've been sold the lie by many of our food suppliers that speed is everything. I would argue that we need to reclaim the mindfulness of preparing, cooking and eating rather than consuming the lie that quicker is better. By making your own pastry, you can make the amount you want, No additives, no packaging, just flour, fat, salt and water. I appreciate that cooking from scratch isn't for everyone and sometimes it's a luxury if you're short of time, but I'm sure I'm not alone. Let's not lose the art of simple cooking.

26:13Couldn't agree with you more, Alison. And sometimes it is better than therapy. I agree. In the autumn, I'm sure I've said this before, there's nothing I love more than just batching up a big vat of soup, even if no one wants the resulting soup. it's just something I don't know there's just something earthy and satisfying yeah and also I find getting home of an evening and just doing some chopping and whatever it's it is a lovely time to just what what do they say um busy hands calm head calm head busy hands you know if you're doing something yeah that you have to do hand-eye coordination with you can't be thinking and you know by our stage of life catastrophizing about everything that's happened during the day so i'm with you alison completely i think at the moment it's a pretty difficult time in british politics isn't it and i think you know the death of ann widdekin was just horrible and i don't think it's helping with the old catastrophizing it's certainly not helping me i have to say so i hope everybody's got through the last couple of days all right really wanted to mention this from kate who is in suffolk now she's 53 and says she spent the majority of her career working in an office travelling internationally and on board cruise ships.

27:28She had Covid years remote working but then went back to the office but then she was made redundant and says she was thrust back into the world of job hunting. But I did get a new role. It was hybrid though due to a massive pay cut. I couldn't afford to travel into the office in London more than one day a week and I'm in Suffolk. So not only do I live alone, not married and no kids, I now work at home four days a week as well. It's been a massive shock as a people person who literally gets energy from being with other people. Some days the only people I might interact with are when I go to my wonderful gym, which has an amazing sense of community.

28:06And I think sometimes we underestimate that point in the gym. I mean, I'm not a gym person, but I do gather there is a level of community at a lot of gyms, not every one of them, and people really enjoy it. It's been very deprimental, she says, to my sense of belonging, and I miss daily social and professional interaction. Some might find it attractive to be home working, but for some it's just isolating. To be home alone so much has been a huge challenge. Radio, podcasts and music keep me company. Now, due to organisational changes, I have got a new role and it's at Heathrow Airport. That is a massive change as I will be on site three days a week.

28:45I literally cannot wait to be surrounded again by people and the buzz of a working environment. Kate, thank you for that. That's a slice of contemporary life. I'm very grateful to you. And I really do hope you enjoy being back in the buzz. I'd really miss it if I left it. I know I would. Totally. And it's all of those other things that aren't necessarily to do with work. I mean, it's about, it definitely is about the snacks that you can buy. You know, the fact that you can pop out for lunch. The fact that, you know, you just bump into people that you would never normally bump into and you don't have to have deep and meaningful conversations with them.

29:24You don't have to seek out company, do you? I think it's fair to say that Heathrow Airport will be lively. It's a very well-known airport. So I've often wondered about the behind-the-scenes places like that. Is there a staff room on every floor, in every terminal? Are you fraternising with all of the stewardesses and stewards and pilots who come through? Is it actually quite kind of enclosed? I'm Fee Flymey. What are we saying here? Anyway, let's talk fashion. You know that I gave up that logo years ago. I'm much more about green energy now. You are. You're an absolute wind farm. Right, let's bring in our guest today, fashion designer Amanda Wakeley.

30:16Amanda, welcome to the programme. Lovely to have you with us. A fashion designer, of course, you have dressed some of Britain's most famous women, royals and global megastars like Beyonce, Angelina Jolie. You've got a podcast series, Style DNA. It's been a big hit and is also the title of your first book. Welcome. How are you? I'm well. Thank you for having me. Can you just tell us, first of all, what you are wearing today? What I am wearing, I am wearing vintage Amanda Wakeley, my Air shirt, which is a sort of signature style, which is in my current collection, which is available at John Lewis.

30:48Yes, get that in. And get that in. And some vintage Ralph Lauren's silk pants and some ancient Greek sandals on my feet. Ancient Greek, literally ancient Greek. No, they're called ancient Greek. It's the name of the brand. But yes, just get some air on my feet. Right, and the Greek thing, that's very much in vogue because of Odyssey, the film. So we're all going a bit Greek over the next couple of weeks. Absolutely, and I've always loved sort of Grecian goddess dressing. When I had my brand, it was something that I just loved doing for evening wear. Right, well, we'll talk a little bit about, because you had a tough time in Covid, didn't you?

31:26Your business had a tough time, you personally had a tough time. Exactly, yes. But you're very much back now, which is great. Has fashion always meant something to you? Tell us about your childhood, your adolescence and the people, not just the women in your life and how they dressed. How did that impact you? Yeah, I think style more than fashion has always been important to me. I mean, it started at a very young age. I was lucky enough to have a giant trunk on the landing at home, which my very glamorous grandmothers would put their cast offs in. So it was full of everything from little silk slips to moth-eaten cashmeres to, you know, pieces of fabric that had been picked up around the world.

32:09So it was like my treasure chest. And you dip in and wear it. Absolutely. Dip in, wear it and customise it. I mean, for, you know, for as long as I can remember, I think I must have been about seven, I was on my mother's sewing machine. I mean, I could only just reach the pedal. Let's put it that way. And it was totally instinctive, innate. Right. And you've mentioned your grandmothers. What about your mother? How did she dress? My mother dressed beautifully. She was a surgeon's wife. And, you know, I remember to this day, twice a year, we would all troop off into Jaeger in Chester, the local town, with my mother.

32:50I'd go with my mother and father for them to select what she was going to buy that season. And it would probably only be a couple of outfits, but everything was beautifully chosen. Right. And actually, you write about this in the book, don't you? It's about what you buy. You shouldn't buy in quantity, but quality if you can. Definitely. And I think, you know, we've changed eras, haven't we? You know, when my mother back in the 70s was buying very, very carefully, there was no sort of high street to speak of. Yes, there was probably CNA just coming in, but there was no the Sheeans and the H &Ms and the Zaras of this world.

33:32None of that existed. So you bought less, you bought better, and you looked after it. Now, to people who say, oh, clothes, they don't matter. And some people do firmly believe that, don't they? They don't think it matters what they look like. What would you say to that? I think it matters what you feel like. Right. And that's the most important thing to me. And I spent 30 years, my business and my career in design was all about making women feel the best version of themselves. And I think if you feel confident, then you are going to just deliver your best self in whatever you're doing, whether that's rocking up at the school gates, which can be highly intimidating, apparently, all the way through to going into a board meeting or being on the radio or whatever it is, if you feel good and comfortable and like the best version of yourself in whatever you're wearing, you are going to deliver your best job.

34:32Right. And isn't it also about showing, I don't know, without being pompous, a degree of respect to the rest of the world? I mean, they've got to look at you. We don't look at ourselves, do we? Totally. And, you know, I talk about this in the book. We message through our clothes and we read people within, I think it's a tenth of a second as to what they're wearing and how they are presenting themselves. From their hair, their nails, to everything. And it's a split second. And, you know, that's hardwired into us as human beings. And so, yes, it is important. It does sound vain, but it is important.

35:08Yeah, the other thing worth saying is that fashion, British fashion, British design, it's a success story. We're good at this stuff. We are really, really good at this stuff. And, you know, I feel, I wish we had a country the size of America because, my goodness, you know, if you turbocharged our turnover in fashion by whatever, eight to be the size of America, God, we would have huge, huge businesses. Do you get annoyed when you know that you've been copied by fast fashion? It's a tricky one. I mean, it's always a compliment. but it is annoying, but the nature of the beast with fashion is you move on.

35:55Yes, it annoyed me. Yes, it must really, really bug you. And is there anything that you can do about it? There are really, really tricky trademark laws, and these big industry, the czaras and all the rest of it, they know that if they just change, I think it's four things, then they're fine. Yeah. And what sort of things? Oh, it can be really minor, really, really minor. So, and, you know, and they know it's David and Goliath stuff. So what do you do? Do you just move on and, you know, get on with the next design? Or do you take Goliath, you know, into the courts? And none of us could afford to do that, quite frankly.

36:41And how do we as customers know a bit more about what's behind the clothes that we wear? Because it's very hard to get details of whose little fingers have made the beautiful creation that you've just bought for£27.99. That's an interesting one. I talk a bit about this in my book because I think we need to educate ourselves in terms of fabrics, in terms of costs, you know, and quality too. Look at something. Look at how something's made. You know, is it made well? Does the price seem fair for that? Look at the garment label. And if something is super cheap, the chances are someone wasn't being paid a living wage to make it.

37:29yeah that's sorry to say no it's quite painful actually when you think about it yeah um fee and i are not big women uh we're i'm a statuesque five foot one and a half and fee is i mean on a good day if i stand up straight five foot two rubbish i've got my platforms yeah yeah it's backed up by two solid sauces. Yeah, ketchup and HP. One of our issues, Amanda, not with you personally, but with fashion generally, is that sometimes it's just really difficult because you'll look at a dress that looks gorgeous on a five foot, 10 inch, 18 year old Slovakian girl. And it's not going to translate to the real world.

38:13Yeah. What do you advise us on this? Well, I talk about working out who your style icons are And that means just try and find a couple of people that really inspire you in how they look stylistically. And that should be someone who's roughly your shape and proportions. Because there's no point you saying Elle Macpherson is my style icon. Because she's a foot taller. Thank you. Yes. You know, and that can be really helpful and informative. and it's never been easier to sort of build an inspiration album, you know, from screenshotting, you know, Instagram or whatever and just building these lovely albums of women that inspire you.

39:00And they might inspire you for your work dressing. And I think you can have different icons for different parts of your life. So whether that's work, it might be occasion, whatever your life holds, it might be country weekends, and just try and find a couple of women that inspire you for those and follow their lead. Who do you look at and think, wow, that woman, and we'll talk about men in a moment, that woman looks astonishing? It's for different things, different women, but I look to someone like Catherine Hepburn who is just timelessly, effortlessly chic. I looked to Carolyn Bassett Kennedy, who, again, you know, effortless, but cool and quirky.

39:48I mean, I think they both would just occasionally just wear a white shirt. But of course, it's the white shirt, but it has got to be a good one. It has to be a good one. And there's nothing better in my book than a great white shirt. Right. OK, I can't actually. Oh, yes, you are. Your shirt is currently beige. Beige. OK. The white shirt is a part of any capsule wardrobe. I'm really interested in this phrase capsule wardrobe and what I should have in it, what any woman should have in a so-called capsule wardrobe. Well, I don't think that's standard. I really don't believe I. I hate rules in fashion.

40:24Absolutely hate them. I'm not going to dictate to you and say that you're an apple or a pear or any other ugly label. OK, so it's all about your life, your lifestyle and what you need as your foundation wardrobe, really. What do you reach for on repeat and just making sure that you've got those pieces in your wardrobe? You know, when people talk about everybody needs a trench coat in their wardrobe. No, they don't. You know, it's rubbish. So, you know, if your life is in the country and you don't need a chic Burberry Mac, then you don't need it, you know, for your capsule wardrobe. So work out who you are.

41:07And that's why I go right back to your childhood to make you think about what you instinctively reached for as a child and write some words down. and then I take you on this journey to work out your three-word style DNA and then once you've worked that out, it is amazing how it helps you in your styling choices and in your styling mistakes too. Yes, mistakes. We've made a few. You don't like buttons, do you? No, I don't. I mean, there's a phobia about them, isn't there? Yeah, there is. I'm not that bad. I mean, you know, if they're needed, they're needed, but it was always a joke in the design studio.

41:49It was like, OK, it's got to be a zip or maybe we just don't even need a button. Right. I'm kind of with you. Do you like them? I'm not a huge fan of buttons. I think large buttons are one of the things that smaller women cannot wear. It makes us look like toddlers. If you've got a coat with big buttons on, it just doesn't work at all. Interesting. It's so true. Dispense with the big buttons. Yeah. Those give me the real ick. What do we do with our terrible, terrible fashion memories, Amanda? because I think we're probably all of about the same age and we've lived through some terrible decades.

42:22I mean, you know, if you look back through the photo album, my teenage years spent in the late 1980s and actually some of the early 1990s, there's nothing really pleasing to be found. Oh, no, there's the PVC catsuit. No, we're not going there. Do you know what pleases me? Is that iPhones and camera phones were not in existence. Well, that's so true, isn't it? Thank God. The dodgy perms, you know, all those dodgy jumpsuits, catsuits, all the rest of it. No pictures of them. And do you think we're in a sartorially better place now? I think people are more conscious of how they're looking, probably because of the prevalence of taking pictures more.

43:06Yeah. I do think that the high-waisted barrel-leg jean is an absolute gift to the slightly older woman. It's a very, very flattering denim. It is. I took a pair off before I came here. Yes, it is. And I think denim, you know, talking about age, I think denim and our shoes can really sort of take us to a place of being quite cool and quite current. And, you know, get your shoes and your jeans wrong. It takes you the other way. Yeah, and we're lucky, aren't we, that we can still be wearing clothes like that in our late 50s, our 60s and even into our 70s. Because I would have thought your mum, Jane, who I know you describe as being very stylish, probably didn't think that that type of dressing was available to her.

43:58But she was a sort of northern working class lady. And style was very important to her. Appearance is hugely important to people who started life without a great deal, isn't it? I mean it's all very well for people perhaps didn't ever know not you know I'm not saying my mother grew up in grinding poverty but she certainly had fewer options than I have but how you looked was very significant because as you said earlier people judge you immediately it's pride yeah and actually I think it's self-care yes that's true yeah can I just ask about heels because um you you make quite a I think I was quite convinced you're almost saying in the book and correct me if I'm wrong that the high heel has left us it's gone or at least it's no longer a requirement it's no longer a requirement we put them on when we feel like it and and i love that i think that is so freeing and so yes if i want to stride out in a really sexy pair of high heels great but i spend most of my days and evenings in flats and it's a joy do you wear trainers i do absolutely okay i feel i've got permission to wear trainers now God, yes.

45:04You did obviously make some amazing stuff for the late Princess Diana, and one of the outfits that you made for her, designed for her, was the one that she wore on the day in the 90s when she effectively resigned from public life. How many conversations would you have with a client like that about outfits for occasions of that nature? Absolutely none, really. Yes. I mean, you know, I had no idea she was going to wear that suit on that day to deliver that speech. What it looked like. So it was a forest green cavalry twill, wool twill suit. It was a double-breasted with little gold sort of horn buttons.

45:45They weren't buttons, they were horns. A lovely dark green velvet revere and a little pencil skirt on those fabulous legs. Right, yeah. Which I can't claim. No, no, well, I certainly can't either. and that was that power dressing or defiance dressing what was that i i think that was just confidence dressing which you could define as power dressing yes yeah okay and um andy burnham is going to be our leader uh we keep saying almost certainly but let's just face it he is going to be the prime minister this time next week what do you think of what some people have described as dad core which is what he wears the t-shirt and the jacket and the jeans well you know whatever makes him feel good but you know if he's going to be leading this country which he is he can't go and visit Macron and you know any of the other heads of state or Trump wearing a t-shirt he just won't be taken seriously but you know I did notice he's now in a suit and tie yeah he's scrubbed up for London do you think that that will ever change because I mean some of the titans of industry in Silicon Valley and you know the richest people in the world choose a completely different way of dressing and it is cocking a snook at the suit isn't it totally totally i mean you know success you know with those guys has just meant that they can come wear whatever they want to wear and they always did yeah do you think it will knock the suit out a bit i don't actually not in a hurry and i and for women too i think there's nothing better than for those tricky moments putting on a really well-cut jacket, it just is empowering.

47:31Can we talk about what your COVID experience was like? Because for anyone running a business, it was tough. But you had other things going on as well, didn't you? Proper anus horribilis, yes. I just got through from doing my audio book over the last two days. And I must admit, when I got to that bit in my book, I had a complete meltdown. Because it brought it all back. Yes. And so, yes, it was not the happiest of times. One of my brothers was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumour and the private equity majority shareholder of the business decided they no longer wanted to fund. And so the two came together and it was a very tough May 2021.

48:21Yeah, it really was. and you had to dig pretty deep to get through all that, didn't you? I did. And then I'm a big believer in silver linings in everything. And to me, there were so many silver linings. God, I would give anything to have my brother back, don't get me wrong. But so many silver linings in terms of our family being so unbelievably close and tight to get through it, and we still are. To going into a new chapter. at a point in my life that, you know, most women are thinking about retirement or whatever. And I have never felt as excited, as energised, as inspired as I have over the last few years.

49:02And it's just brilliant. And I just want to say to, I want to shout from the rooftops to women out there who may have even lost a job or just coming back into the workplace or whatever. do it in whatever way suits you that you want to do because it is so rewarding and in the past i think people would have thought well i can't afford anything that's in any way associated with amanda wakely the truth is now because of the collection you have at the aforementioned high street shop people people can it's not cheap let's be honest it's not cheap but it's something different price point to the original um a few years ago so um yes i i really do believe strongly in timeless style and buying pieces carefully that that you know will be friends in your wardrobe for a very long time yeah you know when you came in amanda and we were talking about that kind of you know first couple of seconds when you meet people and you make up your mind about their style i'm gonna put you on the spot here what do you think of us we were getting on so well I think you look very comfortable in what you're wearing.

50:19OK, all right. And I think that's all that matters. I think you look very elegant and fantastic in what you're wearing too. Oh, Jane, we've got comfort on our side. Well, I'll always have comfort on my side. I will always have comfort on my side. On a rainy Sunday in November, tell me you're at home in a pair of really awful tracksuit bottoms and a scuzzy old jumper, Amanda. I won't be, because to me, it's self-care. So that would make me feel horrible. But I will reach for my father's old cashmere cable knit that I had him made back in probably 1991, and when he died, that was one of the first things I chose to keep.

51:04And so, yes, I'll pop that on, and how old is that? That's 30-something years old. Yeah, but it's special. It's really special and it's not, you know, that is past its best. But that is a garment that's imbued with memories. Yeah. Well, it's been lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Amanda Wakeley, the fashion designer, her book is called Style DNA, How to Dress with Confidence. And just a brief parish notice to those of you who are struggling to see the visualised version of Monday's edition of Offair. It is available now, isn't it? Yes, it was a little slow to make its way to YouTube, but it's absolutely there.

51:44It is redolent in all of its glory. It's a bit. Take it away, kids. Just enjoy it. And we are going to do the book club book, shall we say, at the end of the week after next. Yes, please. Jumper Lahiri's The Interpreter of Maladies. And our guest tomorrow is the novelist Claire Powell. And, well, what can I say? The tingle hasn't gone away. To listeners in Scotland, well just come on just hop on board just for once hop on board the England but no they're not going to I think it's entirely fair that they don't support who you want go the Malvinas we'll talk to you tomorrow

52:45Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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