Wigs! Wimps! We don't know our arse from our elbow!

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0:32This episode of Off Air is brought to you by AXA Health Insurance. We are all busier than ever juggling home and work life with children who rely on you, ageing parents who might need your support, so it can be very hard to take care of yourself too. AXA Health understands the importance of feeling cared for, whether it's their customer care team helping you reach the treatment you need quickly, access to an online GP service day or night, or a counsellor on their mental health support line, offering a listening ear when you need one. They build their teams with people who care. So for cover that cares, choose AXA Health.

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2:26I've got Greg White. Yeah, you see? So we all have lovely things to look forward to. We certainly do. Do you know what? Greg is just such a difficult name to have at the moment in the world of show business because you've got all of the Gregs. You've got great Gregs, you've got terrible Gregs, you've got Gregs who are no longer working. So when Eve just asks Greg, it's just like, what? When you've got Gregs with two Gs, just the one, It is. It's a complicated one. Yeah, it is. I'll tell you what, something... Sausage rolls. Sausage rolls. Oh, Greg's. Yeah, very good. Very good. I do think their marketing team at that High Street Bakery, they really know their business.

3:01They are incredibly clever. Well, when they do their diversification, I really admire them for that. Because they'll do a proper posh pop-up in places like Fenix. And you just think, yeah, of course that works. Because there are loads of people who shop at Fenix who wouldn't really want to admit that they also shop at Gregg's and you've made it very easy for them to say, now I shop at Gregg's. Yeah, I went to Gregg's quite a lot when I was in Crosby when my dad was very poorly. And frankly, it does offer value. There's no doubt about it. There's something very comforting about a Gregg's. There really is.

3:35What's your chosen bake? Well, I would have, I didn't have the bake. I had a Mexican flatbread, Mexican chicken flatbread or the very simple but... Sorry, I've got to stop here. You cannot go to a Gregg's and not have a bake. I didn't. I had a flatbread. Or I had one of their baguettes. The very simple but comforting cheese and ham. OK. And the flat white there is... Anyway, I'm not... What I was going to say is that their genius campaign about their festive bake is about... It doesn't include turkey. And they're actually making something of this. They're saying, if you're a turkey dodger... Why am I advertising for Gregg's?

4:14They're not advertising for... They do do very well. They are incredibly clever. Now, something I've just met... Can I just say, though, they had a blue cheese and steak one recently, didn't they? Well, yes, but I like blue cheese. It worked for me. No, I love it, all that bacteria. It's absolutely wonderful. The image, which I can't get out of my head, and I sometimes return to at moments of sadness, is the Pope meeting Bob Dylan, which I just don't understand what was going on there. And Bob was dressed in... I mean, obviously the Pope was in his traditional white garb, And he's been poorly, so it was nice to see him looking well.

4:47Well, what a recovery he's made. Astonishing. He was back up in the Popemobile the day after coming out of hospital. He's on tour. For serious surgery in his lungs. So well done, Pope. Yeah, no, he's got God on his side, in fairness. No, well, don't say that, because there's another bloke around at the moment who says he's got God on his side. And he definitely doesn't have God on his side, so we mustn't say that. That's true. I think God needs to actually shut the turnstiles. God doesn't know where to turn. just carry on it is strange no i felt that bob i don't know how old bob is now but he must be over 80 he is could we just look that up age of bob dylan please um it was an extraordinary image of eve puts the e-verification into verification sorry um it was almost like bob hadn't made the effort that might wear a jacket as soon as you so for people who haven't seen the picture it is the Pope in white looking clean and respectable.

5:48As you'd hope. On the left of the picture. And you're right, Bob's there in a hoodie, a black hoodie, hood up. He looks like he didn't even take his hood down. He looks like a 15-year-old recalcitrant youth. Yep, he looks like he's on his way to the skate park. Yes. And he may have stopped off to roll himself a fat one. Exactly. How old is he? He's 85. Oh, good Lord. And I'm looking at a Times article here that reported back in May when it was his birthday, Bob Dylan is turning 85 and has been on tour since 2021. Golly, it puts a heart to him. It doesn't stop, doesn't it? Good mention. Well done.

6:24Is that going to happen a lot? Excellent production, Eve. Giving me an open goal there. Okay, well, also, I'm very much with you on that. I think sometimes you do have to dress more appropriately for the company that you're keeping. You do, yes. And I know that you're Bob Dylan, but he's the Pope, mate. Yeah, I'm afraid you lose there, Bob. You really do. Which brings me to Boris Johnson once again, looking like a bloody haystack at the Remembrance Service at the Cenotaph. Not good enough. It's the one occasion where I would expect anyone in a role like that to brush their bloody hair. Would you?

7:03Even I would. No, I would because I haven't been Prime Minister. Yet. Yet. I just think, oh, I just think it's so disrespectful. I'm getting very old school about things like that. Well, also, I think many people have pointed this out. There's got to come a time when at the Senataf service, there aren't quite so many prime ministers. It does make us look daft. I mean, I think you just have to go this one and the last one. That's quite enough. That's probably quite a good idea. And if you want to show your respect and commemorate, then attend. but you don't have to be in the front row. No. I think it's a display of our own democratic inefficiency.

7:42Yeah, well, we could lose one straight away by just restricting attendance to prime ministers who've combed their hair. Well, we could. That would be one way of going around it. Or prime ministers who, you know, lasted longer than the trial period. That'll get rid of another one. Yeah. Anyway, we have got, let's make an early visit to Apology Corner. Although if we're driving there, you wouldn't want either of us behind the wheel. So we're incredibly grateful to so many people for letting us know that the Cadogan Hall is not in Wimpole Street next to an excellent pharmacy. Wigmore Street. No, I'm reading directly from Ellie because she goes on, she goes on.

8:19I think you might be thinking of Wigmore Hall in Marylebone. Cadogan Hall is in Chelsea. I'm sure Eve wouldn't have let you go to the wrong venue. I don't know. I mean, she's got a little bit of a rebellious streak on her, hasn't she? Can I say, I did try to interject with my voice of God, but you guys were in such full flow. Actually, no, let's get this straight. You saw the rumple in the carpet coming up and you thought, yeah, let them fall. You had shovels in your hand and I just let you keep on digging. Or there's always the possibility you were chatting away pleasantly to a colleague. I have laser focus.

8:55Oh, do you? Unlike you two. This one comes from Ellie and we want to say thank you as well to Polly, who also pointed it out. I've got Anne here as well. Yeah, and the terrible thing is, Jane, that you know... How long have you lived in London? 40 years. 40 years next year. And also, I've been to quite a few concerts in that hall that you were talking about. So did I. In Maribyrn, because they used to do free lunchtime concerts. And actually, JLA was just up the road and the BBC was just up the road. and it was the most fabulous place to go and very quietly chomp through a sandwich, especially if you were hungover.

9:37It was just wonderful. So my apologies to that, but I just, I probably wouldn't have checked because you know when you just get a bit cocky and you think, yeah, I've lived in under for 40 years, I'm going to head off. Yep, I've got loads of time. I'm at that place tonight. I'll just get, you know, on public. I just would have missed it. I mean, honestly, London, although I do love it in many ways, it does continue to elude me in so many ways. For example, I regularly get lost going to Brick Lane to get my bagels. I can't tell you the number of times I've gone to Brick Lane over the years to stock up.

10:09But it seems to be in a different place every time I go there. What station are you getting off at? I think that's the confusing thing. In the time that you've lived in London, Brick Lane has actually got a tube station. Because that whole East London... You mean Allgate East? Or do you mean Liverpool Street? No, I'm in Shoreditch High Street. Shoreditch High Street? I'm not surprised that it's taking you forever to get there. So a Brick Lane bagel. Yes. No joke, and Eve, can he verify this for us? Yes. You're about 250 yards away from the best bagel shop at the top of Brick Lane if you get off at Shoreditch High Street.

10:42Which tube line is that on? That's overground. It's the overground line. Oh, well, that's where I'm confused because I tend not to use the overground. I saw Jade on the tube last night. It was really spooky. It was very frightening because I've got a... It was so bizarre, Eve. Well, it was quite unsettling. I found it unsettling, too. Did you get the tube home together? No. No. So we go our separate ways. Because we don't live together. When we leave the office, the Jubilee Line was stuck at a standstill because there was a breaking down train. So I waited a couple of minutes and I thought, I'll just go on the Northern Line because I can navigate my way home from there just as easily.

11:18Or can I? Wow. So I got on the tube. I was there for two stops. And then I saw old Muppet just about to get off. and honestly I just thought, oh my God, what's happened? No, because I found a method. You know how, I mean, it's probably true of people of all ages. By the way, stick with us, there's more content coming. There will be some almost approaching content. You get to a certain age, I'm at it, where a seat on the way home is very important. And I found a way of ensuring that, but it does involve changing at a very particular location and then boarding a particular carriage. I mean, you just get used to it, don't you?

11:54Very much so, yeah. And you establish that pattern, and that's what I do. By the way, I did get a seat both ways yesterday. So isn't that a fantastic result? Well, it is fantastic because I didn't get a seat because that's not a tube that I regularly take at all. But I did see out of the corner of my eye, I saw you. Was I picking my nose? No, no, I saw you get up, and I just thought, oh, that's funny, someone's got exactly the same hairstyle as Jane. How strange. Style. Careful. And then I just thought, oh, my God, it's Jane. And it's so bizarre because, of course, we would bump into each other.

12:29We work in the same place. No, but seeing somebody... But you just never do. It is bizarre, but it's like seeing... You remember very occasionally as a child, you might see a teacher at the weekend. Oh, my God, that was a spooky experience. You're absolutely right. It used to be very unnerving. Or sometimes if you saw your local vicar or priest, but without the dog collar, you know, doing something. Going into... Let's not go there. Yes. Do you remember, did you read the Millie Molly Mandy books? No. Oh, they were adorable, those books. And there was one Millie Molly Mandy story where her teacher had to come and spend the night.

13:07And honestly, no, not in a creepy way. Oh, my God. All our innocence had just been taken away, hasn't it, by horrible things that genuinely do go on, I acknowledge. But it was so sweet. but I remember as a child being absolutely mesmerised by the concept of a teacher needing to stay the night. They're lovely books, those. Millie Molly Mandy lived with a whole... Well, she had an aunt and an uncle and a mum and dad. I think their grandparents were in the mix as well. They were beautiful stories. I'm sure they're still out there. Oh, by the way, Anne is one of a number of people to point out our idiocy.

13:39Yet again, yet again, your knowledge of geography is letting you down. I hope you're going by taxi to the Cadogan Hall. It's off Sloane Street, nowhere near Wigmore Street. And the fantastic John Bell and Croydon Chemists, that was the one I was mentioning yesterday, established 1798. My God, that's a long time. As for the latter, it's the smartest pharmacy I've ever been to. I had my COVID jabs there in 2022. A comfy armchair to wait in and then ushered into a booth by a royal appointment crest. I joked to friends I was half expecting to be offered a glass of sherry afterwards. Anne says, thank you for keeping me entertained.

14:19Well, I mean, I think we sort of keep people entertained and we make people very angry and frustrated. Well, we do. And I think, unfortunately, while we're stuck in apology corner, Mary might need a little bit of an apology because she's an associate professor at a Russell Group university. Obviously, more your thing than mine, Jane. I just... Because the University of Kent wasn't a Russell Group university. Is it not in the Russell Group? No. You have pointed this out to me in a patronising, condescending way for our entire loosely termed friendship, lady. I just need to put it out there that although I use the term Russell Group, I think in common with a lot of other people who use it, I've got no idea what it means.

15:00And I think, I think I read somewhere, that it's just this club that you, as an institution, you can just pay to join. So it doesn't mean anything. Do you want to check that out before you have to apologise to everybody else? To the Russell Group. I mean, who is it? We were talking about lecturers. Yes. Actually, I think we then, I don't think it was a complete condemnation of lecturers at all. And I have to say that the university lecturers I know worked so hard, Jane. And actually, when a friend of mine told me how much he was being paid for what also includes an astonishing amount of pastoral care, I thought, wow, wow, wow, wow.

15:42Because he's got the lives of an awful lot of youngsters to deal with. so many international students now and i think we talk about international students in a slightly patronizing way in this country maybe see them as people who are you know denying uh uk kids the opportunity to get into prestigious universities and courses and all of the rest of this i mean they are keeping universities afloat with the fees but also they're very very young people miles away from home and you know they're in a completely different environment in this country so so anyway i'm not dissing university lecturers uh for one moment this is your opportunity to say i'm sorry if it sounded like i was absolutely right okay uh uh and this i thought was quite interesting actually because our correspondent says a big part of my job is teaching which i love in a busy term i'm sometimes timetabled for seven hours back to back with no break several days in a row around that comes student queries supporting students in crises as a personal tutor leading modules preparing teaching and admin and service roles that take far longer than any workload model allows for aside from that i run an active research group the expectation is that i bring in hundreds of thousands of pounds a year in research income ideally more, and that it comes with good cost recovery.

17:06In practice, most of that money goes on the overheads that keep the university running rather than on the science itself. And this is against a funding landscape where success rates for many research council and charity schemes are now well below 10%. So many of us are also expected to go out and build industry partnerships. Then there is mentoring PhD students, postdoctoral researchers, peer reviewing other people's papers, going for free, going to conferences, etc, etc. One of my great bugbears, we don't get the summers off. Summer is when we catch up on research and prepare for the year ahead.

17:39Our correspondent acknowledges that it is a tough job and a privileged one, but did want to just make sure that we knew exactly what she was doing. And good luck to you. I mean, I think you are. It's something I don't think we ask enough questions about what we're expecting of our lecturers at the moment. You're right, and the pastoral care is a biggie.

18:00this part of off air is brought to you in paid partnership with axa health insurance now we talk a lot on this podcast about the mental load and how the pressures of life can sometimes send you into a 2am spin and why is it that life's worries can get louder when the world gets quieter well speaking personally fee i snooze very happily through two but in around about twenty past four these days I find myself quite likely to be awake and that's when those little but not so little worries creep in and really start to dominate your thinking. Well it's incredibly difficult to wind yourself back in and it's so true actually that just at a time when you should be calm and quiet and be able to enjoy that it's like it's a petri dish isn't it all of that quietness and all of that calmness that just lets the anxiety run riot it's one thing that our next guest is very well equipped to help us with joining us now is Imran Sterno who is head of AXA mental health Jane and I were just talking about our shared problem which is waking up in the middle of the night absolutely catastrophizing about things that of course in the middle of the night you can't do anything about does that sound like a familiar anxiety problem to you yes absolutely so whether you are young or slightly older like me a young 46 and we all have worries and things that keep us up in the night and often during the day we push them aside but if it's something that's been playing on your mind something that is really significant for you it often pops up so yes it is a very common thing to have and I think the most important thing is just the feeling that someone will listen to you but that person can be sometimes quite hard to reach practically and and in every other way yeah absolutely I think something that's really tricky is a fear that we all have about maybe opening up and what that means and what it might mean about us so there's always worries and there's lots of stigma around mental health around anxieties and you know for all of us who are women who are juggling life and in the sandwich generation we have multiple worries and competing things that we're juggling all the time so yes sometimes we're worried that people won't want to listen but they really do.

20:18Sometimes I think one of the problems at the moment actually Imran is that you can see other people across social media talking about their problems a lot and somehow that can also rather silence your own fears because you think well that's not what I'm suffering from maybe this isn't so bad and And actually, what is important to you is important to you. We shouldn't always be comparing, should we? Absolutely. The comparison generation, as I call it, that's happening with social media is really worrying. And, you know, we all know, but I don't know whether we believe that individuals only put online what they want us to perceive and see.

20:55And it isn't all real. So, yes, it can make us feel really inadequate or it can make us feel maybe ungrateful for what we have as well. it can have the reverse effect. So the challenge is being open and honest and being brave, I guess, and knowing that people do care because we all do. Nobody should be struggling in silence. Tell us then how AXA Health can support somebody's mental health. Well, I think the key to gaining mental health support is access. And what AXA Health can do is offer you quick, straightforward and easy access into services. So because that's often the first barrier is the access.

21:30So we have a great 24-7 team that can offer you help any time of day and give you guidance because there is so much information out there and where to go and how to access it can often be a stumbling block. And another area that we have is our doctor at hand, which is our quick and easy GP service online, which is fantastic. And lots of people have reported how useful they've found it. So would you be able to tell us, obviously, without referencing any personal details at all, the kind of things that people have come forward with? So, for example, something we're seeing that's quite common at the moment is burnout, work-related stress.

22:08There's often a worry that we are perceiving things that might not be a problem or is it a problem, isn't it a problem and when should we reach out for professional help? So they're the sort of things we really do hear a lot from, from the people that contact us. Imran, thank you very much indeed. Fantastic stuff. Imran Sturnow is head of AXA Mental Health. For Cover That Cares, choose AXA Health. They help their members feel listened to and supported with access to an online GP service and where covered, mental health and specialist support. Access to treatment is subject to cover options chosen and pre-existing conditions are not covered.

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23:58Jeanette says, it's just gone two in the morning listening to Off Air. Just woke my husband as I was laughing out loud at Jane's water tank issues. Well, that's nice. That's very cruel. It's really cruel to laugh at them. How is your ball cock? Thank you. I hope that your plumber has fixed your ball cock issue yes Jeanette you have alighted on the name of the plumber as it happens I think there were clues they were left little breadcrumbs my ball cock is due to be replaced a little later on today so thoughts and prayers there do you know what it has I know we alluded we talked about this yesterday but it's such a strange thing that we live in our houses without fully understanding what goes on in them.

24:44And I've been doing a little bit of reading. And you were right when I think you said yesterday it is only old houses that have this water tank in the loft thing going on. But, I mean, the plumber was very good. He went up there really super speedily last night and said, oh, yes, this is, you know, she did need a ball cock and replacing. And I said, do you think it's been there for the entire time that the house is? And he said, yeah, probably. So it's over 100 years old. And just for ball cock fans, mine is a 22. So it's quite unusual these days. Normally they're 15. Why did yours cease to function?

25:23Did it just disintegrate? I think it's in the process of retiring, really, that ball cock's had enough, which isn't surprising after over a century of doing what a ball cock does. I think it's just decided my time here is done. worn out by then. I'm sorry, this is just, it is a stupid name and we just own it. I think we did well to get as far as we did in the conversation with her. That's why we keep saying it. Anyway, wish everybody well there because it is due to be replaced.

25:58The chap is coming back tonight because it's quite hard to get hold of a 22 these days. It's much easier to get a 15. But these are the times we live in, Jane. Have you been advised not to drink the water out of your water tank that sits in your roof and has been there for 100 years? I'm just about to inform you that our water supply has been isolated, so we were allowed emergency short showers last night but can't have a bath until the ball cock is replaced. Because the builder did once tell me that we shouldn't be drinking the water that comes from the water tank. It's absolutely fine for everything else.

26:32Right. But because it has travelled quite a long way, sits in a water tank and then, you know, only comes down into our house when we need it. Maybe it wouldn't be the best water to drink. What, so you should drink bottled water? No, no, we drink water that comes straight from the mains because I would imagine that you have actually two sources of water coming into your house. Oh, so this is purely for baths and showers. I might put my overalls on in order to explain this, but I think in your kitchen you probably have a direct mains pipe or something that's coming, and the water tank is up there.

27:09Supplying the central heating and... Yes, fascinating. If you've got an immersion heater and it's doing all of the stuff that drops down. But I only put that on if these... I actually... No one is listening. I don't want to be here anymore. That's really rude. Right, okay. So, we'll be a further update tomorrow. Right. can I be off tomorrow can you do it got to hear what happens well look good luck with your ball cock and I hope that a fresh one certainly just pleasing for you and can we just well it is fascinating why is it called that and why do we have why does the word I'm going to say it why does the word cock occur so often in plumbing stop cock ball cock why I don't know Eve can you have it on your search and no one wants to have that on their search history okay i'm going to go home and look up what is a cock and see whether i recognize any names we have had some really thoughtful and really fantastic emails about when the right time is to leave the family home and do whatever it is that you want to do and when is the right time to stay in order to make sure that your kids feel that they still have a family home.

28:32Incoming from long time listener, first time emailer. During a lecture in my first year at university, I received a text from my mum saying that she and my dad were flying out to Portugal to look at a boat. We'd had a small sailing boat on the Essex coast, but they'd long dreamt of sailing around the Med. Well, they bought the boat there and then. And by the time I graduated, they'd rented out the family home and sailed off into the sunset. I was the youngest of so they were officially free of children. They did ask how I felt about it and at the time I was entirely supportive. I was in my early 20s, had no intention of moving back home and was rather looking forward to some free holidays in the sunshine.

29:12Fast forward 20 years and they're still there while I've become a proper adult with them largely absent from my day-to-day life. I met my now wife not long after they left and 10 years ago we started a farm which has been pretty all-consuming ever since. I speak to my parents regularly on video calls and I know they're incredibly proud and supportive of what we've built. But there's something strange about approaching 40 and feeling almost immortalised as a 20-year-old in their eyes, because that's when our lives really diverged. They know what I'm doing, but they haven't really witnessed me becoming the person I am today.

29:49I'm genuinely pleased they've enjoyed such a long and happy retirement, and I think their absence has in many ways made me more independent, resilient and determined. I wouldn't necessarily change any of it but I suppose what I didn't appreciate at 20 was that I wasn't just waving my parents off on an adventure, I was also saying goodbye to having them around for much of my adult life. Now do you know what, I read that and I thought what a fantastically wise email to Penn. I'd never thought of that being the consequence that actually you remain in your parents' eyes very much the person that you were when you were all much more together and if you don't witness those details of daily life and the kind of sloughing away of certain things and the embracing of others you don't recognise the change I just think it's a fantastic point to have noted I think you're very generous actually about the impact that it's had on you.

30:52And it's a tricky one. You wish your parents a happy retirement, I think, you know, unless you're incredibly nasty or something terrible has happened. But yeah, I mean, do we have the right at the age of 20 or do we have the knowledge at the age of 20 to also say, stay around for a bit longer so you know me rather than me just always being like this. I think it's just such a clever thing to have noted. You, the child, are preserved in aspic as an adolescent of some sort. Yeah, and you can't know at 20. That's the point, isn't it? You're not going to know, no. So, you know, you've been supportive and encouraging and gone, yeah, of course, I need my independence too and whatever, but actually 20 years down the line, it maybe feels very different.

31:44It's just worth saying that that same anonymous correspondent is a female farmer currently building her own home, regularly finds herself, she says, navigating male-dominated spaces. I went recently to a plumber's merchant. Yes, we have been discussing plumbing. And it smelt remarkably like my brother's teenage bedroom. I was delighted to discover, though, that they did have a ladies' loo. Unfortunately, it was only accessible if you could first manhandle a hot water cylinder and some parcels out of the way. Naturally, my first thought was that I needed to share this with Jane and Fee and I've enclosed the photograph.

32:16Yes, look at that. The loo is there. It exists as a facility, but it's quite difficult to, again, entry. You wouldn't want to be really, really caught short at the end of a long podcast and have to make it very quickly into that ladies' loo. An accident would have happened yesterday, that's for sure. Yes, yes. Well, you got there, didn't we? Just want to, in case anybody was worried that you hadn't made it, I can assure you there was no difficult puddle in the hallway. Fee made it to the loo. Congratulations. Thank you, darling. Just as we were talking there, there was a news burst, wasn't there?

32:52Do you want to mention what it was? Well, the celebrity who had applied for a lifelong anonymity under an injunction at the High Court so that The Guardian and ITN couldn't divulge details of an investigation that both those news organisations have been doing for some time into predatory behaviour, particularly towards young women. That celebrity has been named and it is David Williams. So we will spend much of our time on the news show this afternoon between two and four, talking about this. It comes one day after the sentencing of Russell Brand for his predatory behaviour. And gosh, Jane, I mean, his name's been out there, but not out there, if you see what it's been, David Williams.

33:39for quite some time. One of the worst kept secrets in Britain, I would suggest. And of course, he's not been charged with anything, so we await developments there. But I think there is an ITV documentary tonight and then there'll no doubt be more coverage in The Guardian as well and in every other news outlet, I don't doubt. We both thought the judge yesterday sentencing of Russell Brand was just impeccable. So it was Mr Justice Benetton. Yeah. I thought he was remarkable. You're absolutely right. I think he said all of the things that need to be said. And, you know, men need to get the memo. So he said a woman can go out, she can dress how she wants.

34:22She can go where she likes. She can go where she likes and she can drink what she wants. But consent is still her right. A no is a no. And he also made this fantastic point that Russell Brandt had directed his defence. to ask very humiliating and debilitating questions of the women in court. That's at the direction of the person who's on trial. Of the client. You know, ask her about this, ask her about what she drank, about what she was, all those kind of things. And I thought it was fantastic that the judge pointed out that he had chosen to do that to the women who have been brave enough to face him up with his own truth.

35:09And I think, again, it's something that many of us don't really realise is happening in court. You know, we perhaps assume that a defence lawyer goes their own way. Oh, far from it. Uses every, you know, legal avenue available to them. But it's at the direction of the client. The client can say, I mean, he could have just said, I'm guilty, and then the women wouldn't have had to give their testimony to court. We did have a really interesting message from a listener yesterday afternoon on the live programme saying exactly that. If Russell Brand really is a Christian, as he claims, why didn't he just admit the offences?

35:46His sins, yeah. Sparing the victims, the stress and the upset of going through that court appearance. Anyway, it does feel as though that sentence felt to me, I'm just an onlooker, to be a satisfying one, if that's the right expression. So let's wish him a really pretty uncomfortable time. Shall we go back to some of our emails about moving house? And this is another email from a correspondent who says, we were given the opportunity to move from Essex to Cornwall, just as our youngest daughter was doing her A-levels. We'd lived in our old town for 20 years with our three girls growing up there, but this was a fabulous new opportunity for us.

36:29we held off a year as our daughter did a gap year with some traveling and we felt she needed a familiar base to come home to but the time came and although she wasn't happy she was starting university and we were off i actually drove her to bath and settled her in and then continued on to cornwall where my husband had already arrived with the movers it wasn't easy the first christmas was tricky as she really missed out on all the fun back in essex as were we and we all went back for New Year celebrations. She felt a bit isolated in our new rural home whenever she came home for holidays, but give her ado, she found holiday jobs to fill the time.

37:04And it was at one of those jobs that she met a local young man and they've now been together for six years and they're now living in London together. So it turned out well for us. Our other daughters had already started to make lives for themselves in new places. And now this home in Cornwall is a great place for us all to be together so my advice for your listener would be go for it but be sensitive as to how it will make their children feel she wishes us this is louise a lovely weekend and she calls us guys we love that don't we you don't like that i hate it as louise well knows thanks guys for all the emails but then we did have we had a younger colleague who kept on calling us girls the other day we didn't like that either we can't we can't be pleased no we Reserve the right to be gloriously inconsistent and often wrong.

37:55Often wrong, yep.

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39:05Shall we end? Because actually now we need to go and do things, don't we, for the show? Because it will be a busy one and we'll have to talk about men who deny all wrongdoing. How often have we used that phrase recently? I don't know. It feels like probably one of the more overused phrases of my broadcasting career. Yes. Denies all the charges. Like Andrew Mountbatten denies all the charges, Windsor. And actually, a couple of people did say yesterday, he seems to have all gone very quiet, hasn't it, there? Let's hope that situation changes sooner rather than later. Well, there are increased investigations.

39:43explanations though aren't there yeah that's true as to exactly who might have been welcomed onto royal property particularly the Balmoral estate and in fact that is something that Gordon Brown chased down in there are some good men out there yeah in in previous years to do with the Epstein files and he demanded to know what do they call it the passenger what's-its of private airplanes coming in and out of the country. What are they called? They've got a special name. They have, haven't they? Oh, that's going to annoy me now. Passenger, Ember. What's it called? It's called, it's a proper term.

40:22Manifest? Thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank God you got there. Because otherwise, you know, we'd literally, we'd be in... Well, just before you do that... Wimple Street. You did mention... Where? Wimple Street. Never mind. You can't even get the wrong place right. Wigs, wimps, we don't know our arse from our elbow. but I'm getting a new bullcock, so get me. Ali is the listener. You did mention her yesterday. Sorry, that was just terrifying.

40:52No, carry on. Ali emailed, and you did reference this yesterday, that she enjoyed our book. As I'm bigging up the tour, I thought, by the way, we have sold some tickets for the tour. Thank you to all those people who have already bought tickets. It's incredibly good of you, and we're very excited about it, aren't we, actually? Well, we are. We haven't really been, we haven't been let out for a while. No. So I'm looking forward to this very much. And also you and I get a little bit giddy. We had to appear on the, not had to, we were delighted. We were delighted to appear on the breakfast show here at Times Radio.

41:26It's a terrible slip I've made there. I don't think anyone noticed, darling. Plough on. To announce that Stig Abel, one of the hosts, he asked us about our riders I think in jest because as he said you're not rock stars but we do have riders I thought it was a bit cruel when you said that you and I get completely giddy with the notion that we can walk into a dressing room and in your case there's a bottle of champagne in my case there's a bottle of carver in both our cases there are some kettle chips and usually dips as well I still cannot believe that I've got to a point in life where somebody's put that out on a little table for me Jane I love it I just love it I see it and I immediately think of my old careers teacher Miss Edwards where are you now?

42:14well actually the poor woman I know where she is but it's she wouldn't have dreamt it no but it just it so so tickles our fancy that we're allowed out on stage and it'll be lovely to see you and in fact Rosie and I know Eve had some things in the planning for our earlier shows so we'll wait and see what that delivers but there will be costumes there'll definitely be costumes back to Ali um she says she loved our book although she does then say I can't remember it that well but I do remember laughing out loud right okay um now this is interesting I'd like to respond she says because on a more serious note to the emails you've had about hoarding from the position of a social worker I could hear it in people's emails that they found social services support unhelpful and I do understand that but I'm currently working with a family where the mum is hoarding.

43:03I am the social worker for the children and I feel strongly this is not a good environment for them to be growing up in. But adult social services can only work with people when they're consenting unless they are deemed not to have capacity. And this is where it just gets so complicated. So it's very challenging work to be involved in, especially as mental health support has been hollowed out in the last 15 years. so the underlying psychological causes of hoarding are rarely addressed and we social workers are left trying to stick plasters over the gaping wounds i've always i mean i've said it before i'll say it again i think social workers you know if you think their job's easy you do it i think it's astonishingly difficult and i just don't think they get the respect they deserve Completely agree with all of that.

43:52And also just the sheer capacity within your day, and you've got lots and lots of other cases, to sort through things. I mean, I just don't know how any social worker is managing to do that. The very nature of hoarding means that, you know, you must be going into houses where you've got thousands of items that at some point somebody is going to have to decide that goes in a skip, that gets kept. What a terrible task. really difficult to add to your workload. And as Ali just points out there, if a person has a capacity, then you can't make them do anything. And she's the social worker for the hoarder's children, not for the hoarder.

44:33So it's just a very, very difficult area. Thank you for bringing that to our attention, Ali. Well, I'm not surprised you can't remember anything about the book, Ali. No, she's got a proper job. Your head's got other stuff to be filled with, but it's still available. I did think it was astonishing earlier that you offered the promise of content in this podcast. Yeah. Have we? Well, we have sort of. Well, I've spent half as I've said with my head in my hands. Well, that's nice. Very damning. Very, very damning indeed. Okay, I'm going to end with something from Liz from Coventry, sometimes from Enfield, currently in Athens.

45:08She gets about. She does get about, Liz. Is that depressing to you? Are you okay with that, Eve? That's allowed. Okay. Have you looked up Cox yet? I can't have that on my touch. Me neither, Jane can look it up. Liz says, well, you started it. I've just finished Norwegian Wood. So this is our book club choice. Content Eve is content at last. And my first thought is, this is the type of book our young men are reading at the moment. I feel very optimistic about our collective future. I would describe myself as an easy reader, choosing books which are unchallenging and tell a story of a sequence of events.

45:45I have a tendency to skim paragraphs of description to get to what happens next. And what I have loved about this book is the writer's ability to describe, describe feelings of loneliness when watching other people enjoying themselves, the sensation of travelling on a coach, passing through changing landscapes, the emotional impact and practicalities of spending a day in hospital, sitting with somebody who is ill. And Liz just wanted to give the hive a heads up that the book does touch on suicide. So if that's not something that you want to come across in a book at the moment, then give this one a miss for now.

46:20But having said that, for me this book has met the book club criteria of a book I would not otherwise have read but which has left me feeling richer for having read it. It is truly a beautiful book. Liz, thank you for being so on the money actually and getting on board with the book club book so quickly and we won't be discussing it until after Christmas because everybody just has a list of things as long as they're arm and we really understand that. But what a great recommendation from Liz. So Liz sounds like our kind of woman, our kind of reader and I just hope that everybody else can dive into it with enthusiasm.

47:02Thanks for the heads up as well. We appreciate that too. Yeah, we did talk about the Booker Prize, didn't we, yesterday on the programme with Susie Goldsbrough, one of the Times' exemplary books team and the winner, it's not the one, well, I haven't read that, but the only one I had read was Elizabeth Strout's book. She's been nominated, I think, three or four times now and has never won it. And the winner was... I mean, look, he's an elderly chap, I think over 80, which is wonderful for him. But it sounded like rather a gloomy science fiction. Is it the one with the murmuration of men over the Kent coast?

47:34It's a dystopian... Yeah, it is. Is it? The murmuration, OK. Yeah, I think it is. Because Robbie Millen was talking about it when he came in before. But it was the one that then one of our podcast listeners, She played the Robbie Millen chat to her class. She's a teacher in France. And she said, you know, the way that we talk about books was exactly the way that she wanted her class to talk about books, which is very honestly, so to have the ability to save a book, no, that's awful. Yeah, it's crap. I'm sorry. I don't think it made her class laugh. Let's join the slightly, are you a despairing or do you have news to bring us of the Booker Prize?

48:11It is the one that Robbie referred to as men flying over the Kent coast. You better just name it, just to be fair. It's called The End of Everything. And it's by M. John Harrison. Well done to him, because he's won 50 grand. He's won, and, you know, many, many more people will buy the book. That's absolutely terrific. It obviously appeals to a certain audience, but you've got to, with books, also be able to say, don't like that. And that's absolutely fine. You don't have to give reverence to everything. Our tastes are different. And we, I think we've hit on a rich scene with the book club choices.

48:43Yes. And, you know, they're taking us to places that we want to go, Jane. Well, we want to go there, but we don't always know how to get there, do we? And that's the problem. That's a very good point. Right, well, let's leave it there. That's taken us to all sorts of conversational locations. Thank you very much for being a part of it. I'm sorry that we've disappointed Eve. It's been such a wretched morning for her. No doubt she'll be, in later years, she'll look back on all this and think, I don't see, Jane, where is the respect? Where is the respect? You still want me to book that dinner, do you?

49:19Thank you. Macks are going down now.

49:37Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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