OFF AIR... EXTRA (with Penny Lancaster)

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2:09Hello, this is Jane, and who can forget the fantastic occasion at the Cheltenham Literature Festival last year when Fee and I interviewed Penny Lancaster about her memoir, which actually is well worth a look if you're in the market for a book of that nature. But I've just been reunited with Penny and we thought you might enjoy this conversation from Wednesday's Times radio programme in which we debate menopause in the workplace. Here it is. My guest at Penny Lancaster is in the studio and I've got to say we're like a pair of typhoid mary's, not coughing, spluttering. It's not great in here. Half of women experiencing perimenopause or menopause say it has affected their careers negatively.

2:52This is a report by Scottish Widows. Penny knows a thing or two about this, don't you, Penny? Because your husband, Sir Rod Stewart, a well-known crooner, has encouraged you to seek help when your symptoms just became, I mean, they became intolerable, I think, for you and quite possibly for him. Would that be fair? Very well put, yes. Well, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Yeah, menopause seems to be on the lips of everyone right now, which is where we need it to be. It was just six years ago when we were in lockdown and I first started developing symptoms, which at first I thought was sort of COVID-like symptoms of hot flushes.

3:30But then it soon sort of escalated into, of course, sleepless nights and then being completely anxious during the day, brain fog and just floods of tears. And that's just not me. And I guess because we were all huddled together. I was seen and heard you know no one could get away from you no one could get away from you no exactly so it was like my teenagers dealing with it and me dealing with my teenagers that was an interesting combination of my hormones and their hormones and my husband going we need to do something about this so I went to the doctor male GP and he said here's some antidepressants right which I think is quite often the case It is, isn't it?

4:17Yeah, that's where they go to. But mostly what we've heard now from so many of the reports tends to come from the fact that GPs aren't generally taught about menopause. It's an option, which it shouldn't be an option, you know, opt in or out to sort of have this lesson on massive life-changing challenges of middle-aged women that every single woman goes through. So, yes, of course, we all suffer differently and some don't suffer at all. I do think it's important to say some people don't suffer at all. Yeah, absolutely. You can't brand every single woman or scare every single woman into thinking, it's like saying about childbirth, scaring women about childbirth.

4:59I mean, we all cope with different things in different ways. But hormone shifts generally, like how you have PMT, like how adolescent children cope with going into their puberty. We all act differently. But there are very tragic stories of how women end up losing their lives, losing their jobs. And that's sort of what we're talking about here. You mentioned about Scottish widows. They just did this recent report just showing the effect, the financial effect it has on women. Well, they have to oblige to take time off work. Exactly. You know, there's always that sort of age gap in work. But now it's the gender gap and trying to sort of match up like for like women's ability to perform the same jobs as men, but not getting the same pay.

5:53So, of course, if there's not the same pay structure, then they're not going to get the same pension rights. Well, you can't make a pension contribution if you don't have any money because you're not able to work. So that puts them in a very vulnerable position to look forward in their future when they want to save them for their retirement of how they're going to cope. So what did Sir Rod do for you? Is he handy around the home? What he did was he recognised that I wasn't coping. Right. And I think, as I say, it was due to us being at home together. But look at how the majority of women are going out and working, their husbands are working, and they're not seen.

6:30And they don't, you know, 10 % of women in the recent report show that they did have to leave work because they didn't feel they were supported in the workplace and there wasn't a structure. But as we've probably heard now, that there is going to be a new legislation that's going to come in as of April next year to make sure that companies that have more than 250 employees will put in place a safe place for women to discuss their issues and their symptoms that they're suffering with. And very, very simple strategies and policies to put in place to better make women feel comfortable so they don't feel they need to leave their job or even turn down opportunities to be promoted.

7:16Yeah, I think that's really important. What about those people who say, actually, we're in danger as women of making too much of this? I agree with you. We shouldn't be in the situation where we used to be, where you couldn't talk about periods and you certainly couldn't talk about the menopause. But now we're in danger of going slightly too far the other way. I don't believe that. We don't think we're turning ourselves into victims slightly. Not at all. Not at all. We're just for once being able to have a voice and to freely, without any stigma, be able to say, look, a lot of companies, they cannot afford to be without women.

7:52And it shows very clearly that when you have a diversity in the workplace, then it's much more productive, brings in a lot more financial security for companies, let alone the overall economy. So if we don't deal with those very, very simple little changes, sometimes all it takes is for your company to say, like, I'm here, I'm listening. I'll be here to support you. That's all that most women would need, just to have that backing. And then if it has to be like, I need a fan on my desk, I mean, what's the big deal in that? Then you don't have women leaving work. No, I mean, there shouldn't be any kind of...

8:32And taking time off and lying about why they're taking time off. Oh, no, you should never have to do that. Well, they are. Yeah, that would be absolutely terrible. I was in the very fortunate position of when I was really going through the menopause, I was in the thick of it. I was presenting Woman's Hour. So I was actually in such a safe place. So I could say, mid-conversation with somebody, I'm really sorry. People could relate to you. I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know who I am. I don't know where I am. I don't know why I'm here. And that was great because I was in the ultimate safe place to be able to acknowledge it.

8:59But I totally appreciate if you are doing a very different sort of job. And let's face it, most people are. You don't have that place to go to, to actually just own it. Because ultimately, it's just a stage of life. Absolutely. And it's something that every woman is going to go through. Yeah. And you're just adding to the mix of symptoms when you're, you know, when people, women are panicking and embarrassed about it. So just eliminate as much as you can. I mean, I work as a special constable in the police force. And as you can imagine, you know, predominantly male industry. But in fact, even with the City of London, they have a menopause kind of help desk.

9:39Do they? Yeah, and they help adapt you to wearing a different form of the uniform. So, you know, just simple little changes. It can really make a big difference. Yeah, that's amazing. I'm really impressed by that, by the way. Rod's going on tour, isn't he, next year? He is. Yeah, so you're back to the situation where sometimes he does leave the house. He's mostly not in the house. He's the most active person I've ever known. I can't keep up with him. No, I mean, it is extraordinary because he is, is he over 80 now? He'll be 82 in a few months' time. Will he, really? Okay, my goodness. And he's doing, I don't know, any number of gigs.

10:13I think they're all sold out. They are, yeah. Extraordinary. But he's always had that crazy work ethic and he's just finishing off a new album. So there's no stopping him. Okay, fantastic. No retirement for Rod. No, he's a slightly unsympathetic message and actually it comes from a woman and this is what depresses me about this, Penny. It's Amy who says, why can't a woman just buy a fan? Well, yeah, of course, Amy. You can. But it's about feeling safe to use the fan in a workplace. Yes. Yes. And not to feel that people are going to say, what have you got a fan for? Exactly. Yeah. It's, you know, everybody should be welcome to express themselves, to ask for help.

10:56That's the thing. Women are so afraid to ask for help because their generations before got on with it. But the women these days are expected to do far more than ever before. running the house, looking after teenagers, looking after your elderly parents that need help, you know, having children, then going back to work. You know, it's a gamut of skills and responsibilities. It really is. And I've never understood the idea that just because previous generations really suffered, you have to as well. It's the whole point of progress. I mean, just having the line manager, the person up above you, recognising just tiny little changes that might be needed.

11:35and want to encourage you to stay into work and forge for that interview for that next promotion, how much more encouraging would that be than to feel like you're sort of shriveling up and it's all over? It's certainly not over. It's certainly not for you, Penny. Although we're both, as I say, quite viral. So who knows? It will be over for both of us. Oh, God, that's depressing. Penny, always good to see you. Thank you. Thank you very much. That's Penny Lancaster. And yeah, I think it's really important that we just, let's just be honest about what's happening to us crazy to pretend that it's anything other than entirely normal penny lancaster uh married to sir rod stewart um i think actually there are some new dates tapped onto the end of that tour so you might be able to see him it's his last ever tour everybody it's last ever no it really is um and i am interested in what you think about whether maybe having never talked about the metaphors we're now talking about it too much and possibly that can be something of a negative?

12:34Or is it actually overwhelmingly a positive thing that we can just own it now and that workplaces are making concessions and making allowances for women going through that period of time in their life? Anyway, let us know what you think. It is Jane and Fee at times.radio.

13:05Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

13:49This episode of Off Air is brought to you by AXA Health Insurance. We are all busier than ever juggling home and work life with children who rely on you, ageing parents who might need your support, so it can be very hard to take care of yourself too. AXA Health understands the importance of feeling cared for, whether it's their customer care team helping you reach the treatment you need quickly, access to an online GP service day or night, or a counsellor on their mental health support line offering a listening ear when you need one. They build their teams with people who care. So for cover that cares, choose AXA Health.

14:26You can get a quote by searching AXA Health Insurance online. Pre-existing conditions are not covered. The mental health support line isn't a replacement for medical advice and is not an emergency service. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by NatWest Premier. Now what comes to mind when you say Premier? Maybe Premier League, movie Premier, things that are really top level stuff. And why not apply that thinking to your money management? NatWest Premier is more than just a bank account. It's an exclusive service. So what could NatWest Premier do for you? Well, you get access to qualified financial planners alongside tailored investment advice.

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15:44With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini. That's goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.