Bum dialling my plumber... (with Marina Litvinenko)

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2:44Right, as ever, professional to the last, our producer has gone to the toilet. but she just lent into the microphone which i think uh bristled against her in a rather difficult way so yep she's gone for a week that leaves you and i to our own devices i expect she'll be back yeah well we should say something that will surprise her when she listens back oh would that be a bit cruel um what shall we say no i don't want to upset the poor girl no i wasn't immediately thinking of saying something nasty i think we should say something complimentary tree she's very good she's come on an absolute bundle actually can i just while we're waiting um there are quite a few emails about our our appearance in bristol yes once again i've found a way of mentioning our tour uh this fee is because there has been a problem um with the link to get tickets for the show in bristol is it wise to embark on this conversation when young eve isn't behind the other side of the desk because you and i never have the faintest idea how to solve these problems.

3:49Well, I am reliably informed by Eve, I spoke to her earlier, it's going to be rectified by next week. Oh, ouch. Yeah, I know. So it's a bit annoying, and we really appreciate the efforts that people have tried to make to get tickets for the appearance in Bristol. But at least in Bristol, because I know that that is February the 25th, because it's a couple of days before my birthday, which I know that you were just about to say. On the 27th. Thank you very much. I normally think it's in October, but I have now made a note of it. It is. and that means that you have got plenty of time. So if you're hoping to come to Bristol, I don't think it'll sell out completely.

4:25Well, tickets are selling, I have to say, we don't want to give it too much, quite well for the show in London, certainly, because we were checking on that the other day because I don't know, for some reason, even I had time to kill and we had a quick look and we're not doing badly there at all. But by the way, just thank you for taking an interest. We do appreciate it. We appreciate it massively. And we will, you know, try and put on a good show with lots of content. Eve and Rosie were going to be in charge of the content for some of the shows that we had to cancel last year. So maybe we'll keep the same imprint.

5:00Let's talk about family quirks because I like this from Catherine. I was listening to Monday's episode and I felt the urge to share a funny family quirk with you. Your chat about such things did make me giggle. My mum and her sister, Aunty Sal, are both in their 70s now. And, I mean, this is bizarre. They've spent several years hiding an old crab claw in odd places in each other's home. Having spent a lovely day together, the said claw is popped into a hiding place somewhere, often when a last-minute toilet trip is made before the car journey home. The crab claw is old and dry and has lost its odour now, I think.

5:38It quietly passes between their homes every couple of months as it's left in hiding on each family visit They both enjoy waiting to see how long it takes the other to find it Tucked behind a plant pot, in a shoe, on a shelf the options are endless It's caused many giggles over the years Catherine, the very best to your mum and your Aunty Sal I mean, that's an odd one but if it makes the siblings chuckle, good for them I think that is fantastic and because you would probably forget about it, wouldn't you? And then suddenly, one afternoon, when you were packing for a picnic or you needed to reach up into something odd, I've got a basket right at the top of my hall cupboard that has things for the pets in.

6:22What do you mean, things for the pets? Well, it's quite funny I had to take them down because we had a terrible outbreak of moths. House off the market. Well, but beautiful. Can I just say, genuinely, a lovely property. and of course I found one of these things for pets from years past yeah it was you know it was quite a savage reminder uh but if you you know if you if you were playing that game there are so many places that you'll be able to hide something and make somebody giggle I'm glad that the odour isn't what it used to be of the old crab claw so um that that is a relief well there's always the apocryphal story isn't there of the you know the the wounded partner who sews prawns into curtains Do people actually do that?

7:04I don't know. I don't know. Maybe somebody did it once, but it's quite a kind of urban legend now, isn't it? Has it ever happened? Give us some proof or even just tell us an anecdote. Have you ever felt like squirrelling away something really rank in a very difficult place to locate? Gosh, I think we might have some floodgates open there if it's just people who've thought about it. I'd like to see people who've actually done it. I want to know about people who've done it. Yes, please. now having your colors done well well well well loved hearing you talk about getting your colors done such a fun thing to do with friends shopping becomes so much easier when you know your best neutral colors and which colors make you feel you and enhance your complexion we're all unique this comes in from kerry this is me at 42 years old in venice in my black and gray phase and then having fun in alboro and suffolk last week at 66 years of age go for it the best present ever now You look delightful at the age of 42 in Venice, but you're right.

8:05I mean, if I may say so, Kerry, just because the contrast is so fabulous, the Venice picture is definitely drab by comparison to you and your amazing aqua blue and bright yellow in Albre in Suffolk. So I think we should do this, don't you? Well, it would be a good idea to get our colours, so the whole team get our colours done. Well, it would be nice to include them, wouldn't it? He's not bothered, because she looks good in everything. If someone would like to volunteer to come and do the team's colours, that would be lovely. I don't want someone to think that we're freeloading. Oh, no. But we would like to get someone to come in and just talk about maybe sort of the science behind it all and we can do some more generic discussions about what kind of complexions and hair colours suit.

8:54Yes, I think that's a good point. So everyone will benefit. Well, everyone. I'm totally with you. We're not asking someone to just come and do the entire team for free. Well, the whole office. But obviously you'll get quite a lot of publicity out of it. So it might be an investment that you're willing to make. Let us know. Get in touch. You've really grasped the commercial world with enthusiasm. The BBC's a long way behind me. A long way behind me now. Balcox. Diffie and Jane, I'd like to offer some clarification, if I may, on the subject of Balcox. Now, this is Robin, who signs off in brackets, mail.

9:31You assumed otherwise the last time you read an email out from me. So, Robin says, a cock is a device for stemming the flow of a fluid. Have a think about that. Oh, I see. So that's why... So a stop cock achieves this by the use of a handle or lever, while a bull cock serves the same function, but operated by a floating ball, which shuts off the flow of fluid when the level reaches a certain height. Sorry to be daft, but by the ball just moving into a position that stops the water going out. Yes. So if you think about it, you've got water coming up in your water tank and you've got a ball which is on a lever and when the water gets to a certain height, it hits the ball and the ball moves the lever.

10:18Stops any further progress. Okay, right. But Robin says other cocks are available. And I'm not going to be crude about this, but just that initial sentence, that a cock is a device for stemming the flow of a liquid. I mean, is that why the male appendage has ended up being... I don't know. ...called a cock? I don't know. I just never thought... I don't think about penises that much. So, do you? No. What if I said, yes! we'll be back to the days of thinking about the roman empire we really would obviously i don't think about the roman empire every 10 minutes either but no i'm i'm trying not to be uh kind of weird and silly about this but it's a it's a good it's a it's a linguistic point as much as anything how have we got here i just never i've never had the time or the inclination to think why is it called that?

11:16I mean, I was telling you earlier, I bum-dialed my plumber. You know, is it called a bum-dial? When you dial somebody, I bum-dialed my plumber yesterday evening. Completely by accident. I was trying to call somebody else, but I pressed the one. I tell you why, it sounds like the beginning of an OnlyFans film. I bum-dialed my plumber. I felt really sorry for him because he answered immediately. Is there anything wrong with the ball cock? I said, no, look, it's working like a dream. I mean, it's such a peculiar world we have, isn't it? without even really paying much attention. We replaced things we didn't know we had and then we're worried that there might be a problem with the replacement for the device we never knew we owned in the first place.

11:54But, I mean, after over a century of service, it had just had enough. I mean, of course it had. But I'm still concerned that your water tank will remain in your loft because I think both of our water tanks have to come down. I think you're probably right and it is really interesting that I have now begun to really think about it because it's up there. It's just up there. What's he doing? But it's exactly the same thing happened to me. It wasn't until the builder said, you shouldn't really be having this. I mean, obviously, then you think, well, of course I shouldn't really be having this. And then I actually moved...

12:24I moved family members around in the house because I didn't want little ones... The water tank to land on them. Yeah, sleeping under the water tank. Millie Molly Mandy. As I say, house off the market temporarily. But it will be back at a very reasonable price. Millie Molly Mandy. Jackie says, I was listening to Tuesday's podcast on my headphones at work. And can you believe this? What are the chances? My attention was grabbed by Jane's mention of Millie Molly Mandy, because next to me at that point were three Millie Molly Mandy books. I am a metadata librarian cataloguing Puffin books as part of the Steve Hare Penguin Collection in Special Collections at Oxford Brookes University.

13:06I can confirm that Millie Molymandy's teacher does indeed come to stay in the very first book, The Millie Molymandy Stories. It's chapter 12, Millie Molymandy gets to know teacher. I mean, in fairness, she wouldn't have that title in 2026. The Puffin edition is from 1972, so that may be the one that Jane remembers. Cataloguing the whole Penguin collection has been an absolute joy. And the Puffin books are providing so much nostalgia for me and my colleagues. and Jackie has very kindly attached some images of these. They are sweet books, the Millie Molly Mandy stories. And Jill in St Albans also says, I adored those books growing up.

13:44I dreamed of living in a thatched cottage and having bread and jam for tea and also, crucially, having little friend Susan. That was Millie Molly Mandy's best mate. Isn't that sweet? It is. Would you live in a thatched house or cottage? I am very wary of... well, I have no idea how you'd maintain a decent thatch. No, me neither. It goes on the list of things I hadn't really thought about until this podcast. But hey, there's an opportunity for somebody who lives in a thatched house to tell us all about it. They look absolutely wonderful, don't they? And they're such a part of our heritage. But yeah, that must be an absolute bugger to keep going.

14:24Well, it's quite an outlay, isn't it? I mean, there was a chap I, when I was on Instagram, I'm not now, there was a Thatcher who you know posted very regularly about his endeavours and it was very interesting because obviously he happened to be quite an athletic, relatively young man and so there was quite a lot to enjoy if you're interested in roofing but also it must be such a terrible kind of shock if you buy a Thatched house and then realise that you can't keep the Thatch up and you're the one that just replaces it with a roof I think you'd always feel a bit sad I don't even know whether you're allowed to do that.

14:59Well, I think you must be. OK. I mean, because millions of dwellings must have at some point replaced a thatch with a tiled roof. This is territory we've not explored before. If you live in a thatch house, please do. And are they warm? Is it environmentally friendly? I just don't know. No. Many, many questions. Thatch is special coming up. And with that title, not what you expected. All the best coming in from Holly. Now, this picture really, really made me smile after hearing you mention the inflatable shark spotted by Fionn Halloween. I thought I'd send you this pic of my daughter and her friends at their sixth form leavers day this summer.

15:36Luckily for them, it was one of the few days that wasn't boiling hot. But how they managed to do the assault course and go on the bouncy castles like this, I've no idea. Pink sharks with diva attitudes. So it is a fantastic outfit. It just makes you smile. I don't understand how they managed to stay inflated. How are they staying inflated? Because they do, you know, there's the body of the shark, but it's all kind of puffed out. They look magnificent, actually. They're so funny. They are so, so funny. The image suggests it was a rare cloudy day in our British summer. Yeah, because you're right.

16:09That, when it was 35 degrees and counting, would have been unbearer bubble. People who say that, you know, the world is terrible and everything's going to pot, we need to cling to images like that. Very much so. In some ways, life is quite a lot of fun for lots of young people. And images like that just illustrate the fun that can be had in a safe and sensible way.

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17:53Cash now, more later. Now available nationwide. Start your offer at opendoor.com slash ACAST. Profits calculated after fees and costs, eligibility and offer price may vary. Channel 4 News last night. Did you happen to see it? Well, I didn't, Jane. And tell me what was on it. I watched the David Walliams documentary instead. Oh, did you? Okay, we'll talk about that in a sec. But Channel 4 News just had a very simple, I mean, deceptively simple bit of film about a night in Kiev featuring a middle-aged woman and her elderly mother. And this is a lady of 90 who just simply, I admire this lady's gumption, the 90-year-old.

18:34She didn't want to go to the air raid. She did not want to leave her bed in the middle of the night if there was a raid. And obviously there often are at the moment. So she just stayed in bed. she stayed in bed with what looked like a kind of some kind of storm lantern with her just to see her through the night and she carried on reading what looked like a very substantial book but obviously it was very worrying for her daughter that her mum just wouldn't wouldn't engage with any kind of safety procedures and the other people they featured were a young couple who had two cats two dogs and a tiny adorable baby and it just took you through a night in their life and you know they did go down to an underground shelter but can you imagine settling i think the baby was possibly i don't know eight nine weeks old maybe a tiny bit older just i mean just i can't believe i can't believe people have to suffer that uh and those of us who tuck ourselves up at night and think well i hope i don't have to get up for a wee i mean we don't know we're born you just think sometimes this is still going on and it's just a grim reality for people and i just thought it was really well done it really made me think i was still thinking about it when I went to bed last night.

19:43Well, it's so good, isn't it, that Channel 4 stationed themselves in Kiev because the timing of it was to coincide with the trilateral talks that were taking place in Abu Dhabi, where, you know, things were said, but nothing actually got solved. And it's very easy for the world's cameras to go to Abu Dhabi, but much more informative to stay home. Of course, it's getting cold as well. Actually, it's a perfect point to mention our guest on the podcast. I'll be talking to Marina Litvinenko. She is the widow of Sasha Litvinenko, who was the Russian FSB agent who was killed. She refers to him as Sasha right the way throughout the book.

20:30He was murdered on British soil by Putin. and I will definitely ask her a question about Putin's actions in Ukraine and she will definitely have an answer. I think once you saw that picture of her husband in hospital, you know, he is orange with the poison that is going through his organs. He's got those monitors across his chest. He is lying there. I mean, he did do an incredible thing in saying to the world, this is exactly what's happened to me and the statement that he read out is obviously included in the book and you learn in the book that he he was so near death that day but he basically made himself stay alive in order to put that statement out to the world because he knew what was going to happen to him and he wanted to make sure that everybody knew where he believed the blame to be and he was killed.

21:30He was killed by the person running his own country after a lifetime of service to his own country. It's an extraordinary story. We should never not be shocked by it. And I think sometimes there's, I mean, it's not a boredom about events and actions coming out of Russia. But I think there's a level of danger and menace and evil that almost distorts our human reaction. Would you agree? We're a little bit fatigued. Because, you know, it's a person, you know, there's a son without a dad and there's a wife without a husband and, you know, a family without their son. So, we will talk about that in a moment.

22:17And you did see the Williams documentary. I watched the David Williams documentary, Jane, and again, what incredibly brave women to make public their allegations denied by David Walliams. But what really, really struck me, there's such canny words from one young woman now at the beginning of the film. And as she very clearly says, how can you get to that level of celebrity wealth and fame and not want to spend time with a woman your own age? And it's a very, very good question. Maybe because the woman your own age might ask you too many questions, might expect too much of you, might challenge your opinions, might challenge your behaviour.

23:08And sometimes that can be very difficult, can't it? And what also comes through is just how difficult it is when you're 16, 17, 18 or 21, 22 to know where the boundaries should be because you haven't made any yet. So it is easier for somebody to step across those boundaries. And it isn't until much further down the road, when you know much more about what's right and what's wrong, that you will be able to put into perspective what happened to you. So, you know, so many people, I mean, there are free Russell Brand t-shirts available at the moment. I should say we're not making a connection between the Russell Brown case and the David Walliams case because the David Walliams case are allegations that are not within the criminal justice system now.

24:03But a lot of people want to say, if something happens to you and you don't do something at the time, did it really happen to you? You know, is your memory or hindsight the factor at play here? And I'd just say watch that film. Yeah, I mean, predators are usually very clever people. And they pick their targets. They know what they're doing. They're very good at it. And some people are more vulnerable than others to that kind of behaviour. There's no doubt about it. So is the documentary, because I haven't seen it, is it punishing to watch or do you think it's something that people should watch so that they can then properly form an opinion of all this?

24:47The latter, definitely. Definitely, because within it there aren't allegations. of rape or sexual assault. They are stories of a much older man approaching women when they were very young and sending them emails and asking them around. So, of course, just to emphasise again, David Williams says he was never a sexual predator and he denies the allegations. But, OK, well, I'll try and find some time over the next few days to watch it. But not easy, is it? We've had quite a period of time where this does seem to have been the big, big story. And what do you think? Because I am scrambling around here to think what my view is.

25:32What do you think about the stories that are now circulating about why certain people haven't come out to say anything? And is it on? So one of the names dragged into it has been Amanda Holden. Now, Amanda Holden is an extremely successful radio presenter and TV host. And yes, she sat on a panel with David Williams. Are we supposed to condemn her for not so far, as I speak, having said anything about all this? I don't know whether that's entirely fair. Or is it her duty in speech marks to come out and say something? She may very well, like Jonathan Ross, who says he didn't know anything about it.

26:13She might not have known anything about it. I don't know. I don't know what I think about those people. If you are adjacent to alleged skullduggery, what is your responsibility well what would you do well that's what i've been asking myself um and the truth is i might i would seek advice and if the advice i was given was to lie low i might lie low to just i'm not saying that's the right thing i'm just saying i think that's what i might do if somebody told me that might be the best approach to protect myself i I think by the deafening silence from a whole world of entertainment. Because it's not just those names I've mentioned.

26:53So if we can change tack, and I'm going to go back to the Russell Brand case. It's easier because he's been convicted. He's a rapist. Yep. So Hollywood bosses, the people who were doing the PR tour with him when he was off and about in Los Angeles, as well as all of the people who ran Radio 2, who ran ITV, who were booking him on chat shows and Question Time and all of that. I mean, there are thousands of people in positions of authority who enabled him to make money and appear in front of us with a validation. I mean, that's the point, isn't it? It validates somebody's life, which means it is much much harder for a woman to make a decision about whether or not she's safe with a man if the world is clapping him and putting him on red carpets uh then you know how do you how are you meant to know that you shouldn't go home with him i mean i think you know it's a story as old as time the example that i always remember as well as phil specter i mean there was a guy who brandished a gun around in front of people at work and yet he was still being employed So how was the woman who then died at his hands meant to evaluate whether or not he was a sensible person to be around?

28:21You know, so I just think that there are absolutely thousands. I've asked myself exactly the same question, Jane, because I'm not in that kind of showbiz world at all. But I lived a life in the 90s that was definitely adjacent to it. I was very much watching this all. imagine the person watching main events through the window of Dixon's. I mean, could you see in? That's where I was. To stand on a box. So all of these people were, you know, they were relatively close to where I was in the world, which was GLR, it was a music station. There were, you know, stars popping in and out all of the time.

28:59You had parties, didn't you? Yes, no, no, definitely went to parties and, you know, there was very bad behaviour but did it did i mean i was 23 24 at the time did i see things that actually i should have said something about to people above me i'm just going to be really honest about this i think sometimes i did not with regard to either of these two men but the fact that there were other people of way more power and responsibility in that same milieu of work who weren't saying anything made me feel like, well, I won't, you know, I haven't seen anything then. I haven't seen anything. I do remember when Harvey Weinstein first became a story.

29:45The conversation moved quite quickly on to why Meryl Streep hadn't called him out. And I remember thinking, no, no, let's... Well, Anne Gwyneth Paltrow actually, she's got it in the neck. Sorry, they're not the main characters here. Let's talk about him and let's talk about what he's done. Let's not talk about the women who may or may not have known what it was he was up to. Anyway, complicated area, but please do chip in on this. We're interested in what you think. I suspect there's, unfortunately, more to come on all this. There's yet another so-called celebrity who's got an injunction, which I gather is, none of that is pretty.

30:21It'll be interesting to see whether he's able to hang on to the injunction. Well, I tell you what's extraordinary about the injunction now is, I mean, it almost looks like a kind of ornate, antique legal device because you are two clicks away from knowing who that person is. Exactly. You can just Google name of celebrity and their injunction comes up. That's a little tip. You can while away the weekend doing that if you want. Oh, dear. Do you know what? I was asked a very interesting question, actually. By me? By? No. by a younger person this week about why do injunctions exist? Which is a good question.

31:00And I was really quite... What is the answer? I had to filibuster for a while before coming to the conclusion. I just don't know. Because the question was, who are they protecting? Are they ever protecting someone who really needs that protection? That's a really good question. Like a normal person. Like a normal civilian. They have been used in the past by celebrities, I think this is all right to say, because the celebrity feels that allegations about them, the celebrity, if they were made public, it would upset their children. Yes. So I think I understand that. But of course, then you just think, well, think about that before you misbehave.

31:40you yes because there are other people uh you know who are going to be affected by your behavior who will never be able to have the justice and the peace afforded to those children i mean that's the that's the balance isn't it yeah but i just think and it's an i don't know i mean is there anybody listening who has used an injunction themselves for a very good purpose in a david and goliath setting where you're the David and the injunction is to, you know, prevent Goliath stomping through your world. It's interesting because we only ever seem to focus on the so-called celebrity injunctions which prevent the civilian population from knowing who this individual is who may have been involved in Dr.

32:24Bisley. Essentially they're the Goliath. Yes, they are. Yeah, but can it work the other way around? I mean, we will have lawyers or people who actually know about this stuff. Yeah, and it's always lovely to hear it. Thank God that there are those people. do you remember the what was the what was the irish police drama that featured goliath i'm afraid i don't know oh we used to laugh about it i'm not sure i enjoyed your irish action as much as your australian one uh sonia has made contact unlike jane i was not an early adopter of girls playing football but my parents did give my brother sabutio one christmas i was five when Sonia was absolutely living the dream.

33:02Do you know what she got? She got a Caslon cash register. Did you ever have a cash register? Oh my goodness, yes. I did too. With the lovely, lovely, lovely plastic coins. Yes. That you thought, actually I could take them down to the sweet shop. I'm sure they'd take them. I mean, I had the best of both worlds. I had Subutio and I had a cash register. Anyway, Sonia says, I'd chosen it in October and in the shop had been crushed, if not in a bright pink Wellington boot kind of way to have to wait for the Caslon cash register to make its way to me via Santa at Christmas. So Christmas morning, there I am, she clearly remembers this very clearly, perched on the edge of the sofa, legs too short to reach the floor, clutching my cash register with utter delight.

33:45The best bit, or the ping of course, when I released the cash drawer. My parents and brother were setting up Subutio at the other end of the room to a soundtrack of ping, slap, ping, slap, ping. Of course, the cease and desist notice arrived, probably after about 50 repetitions of ping and slap. I still remember my sense of wounded affront. But you got me this. I've been waiting for this cash register forever. And Sonia wanted to reserve the right to keep pinging and slapping. I mean, Subuteo does not, it does not trump a cash register. so your parents and your brother should have allowed you to slap and ping away it's just not fair Sonia and no wonder after all these years you still vividly recall that episode I think it's a great shame that the children of the future will not have cash registers to play with well no we had one in the pop-up post office but now they're just going to have tap and pay aren't they tap and pay is not anywhere near the same how are you going to learn your arithmetic if you can't add up all your two p's your one p's and back in the day when you and I were children, half pennies.

34:55Yeah, well, half pennies, yes, but I also feel like this is where the age gap comes in. Have you got shillings? I remember decimalisation. When the price of a lucky bag went up overnight, or did it go up, or did it stay the same, from, was it sixpence to two pence? Okay. I do remember that. I'm sure that was right. A lucky bag, which was one of those things you could get in the sweet shop, and you took your chances. With any old stuff in it. Yeah, it could be any old stuff. What you wanted was the water pistol, but it was almost never in the Lucky Bag. You quite often just got a lot of humbugs.

35:27Yes, or Blackjack. What year was decimalisation? Oh, I think it was, oh gosh, we'll get our colleague to check. I think it was 72. And you're right, I'm too tiny. The Irish, Northern Irish TV drama about an assassin codenamed Goliath is Bloodlands. And it featured James Nesbitt playing DCI Tom Brannock. brooding very much but he's a good brooder what was the year of decimalization it was 1971 i also think that this is the second time i've made this google search on this podcast in sort of past year okay thanks eve bye

36:09we suffer don't we for our heart there's nothing wrong with a repeat do you have a cash register no but i did also used to have the pop-up post office and i must have been just on the cusp of cash and card because we used to steal my mum's debit cards from her purse to make it feel really proper and then we lost them all down the floorboards oh my god we posted so many debit costs down the floor i don't think any child of the future will be playing post offices i mean most of them are closed the queue is far too long whereas the fun and i can play just man the broken every label scanner no very much so i think i think they'll be playing uh amazon lockers and Oh, God, Amazon copy.

36:51Play Amazon lockers. DPD QR codes. And I took a delivery in actually for a neighbour last night, lovely DPD guy, clearly at the end of his shift and the end of his tether. So he caught me as I was walking up the path and I said, yeah, of course, just bring it in. Five enormous, oh no, enormous boxes of logs. Oh, God, what a pain. Well, for him too, because imagine... Yeah, awful. You've got to load it out your truck. you've got to load it back in. But with that kind of neighbourhood, I'm happy to take in these things. You see, when the house comes back on the market, you too could become part of this wonderful community.

37:29No, very much so. And also, you'll have a house that doesn't have any moths in it. It's perfectly tickety-boo. It's very, very tidy. And since the exorcism? And since the exorcism, it's empty of the spirits. That's wonderful. But not currently available. We need to make clear.

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38:31Skip the showings now, pocket extra profit later. This is so simple now, this is so awesome later. Or sell fast now and pop the champagne later. Cash Now, More Later. Now available nationwide. Start your offer at opendoor.com slash ACAST. Profits calculated after fees and costs, eligibility and offer price may vary.

39:14so let's so big tech has killed our childhood in every way it's killed it yeah you can't even play petrol stations because it's just going to be just plug into a socket where's the fun in that? there's no fun we used to play occasionally play airports but that's difficult these days because there's always been some sort of fake bomb threat or something coming from I mean it's just also it just means that your friends Robin and Jack Macca probably stuck outside at border control for hours waiting to come into the play area. Right. I've got a meeting, as I say. And Fia's got actually this is an interesting interview.

39:53So let's hear it. I'm delighted to welcome to the studio a really important and interesting guest, Marina Litvinenko. And you will know something of her story already, I'm sure, because one day in 2006, Alexander Litvinenko, former FSB agent, whistleblower and critic of Vladimir Putin, set out from his home in Muswell Hill for a day of meetings in the centre of London. This country was his adopted home. He had been granted asylum here, along with his wife Marina and their son. But by the time he came home, his body was full of the most deadly poison known to mankind, polonium-210, administered to him by Russian agents in plain sight as he ate and drank tea in Mayfair.

40:41His murder was shocking then and it's shocking now. And both Sasha, as he was known to his friends and loved ones, and Marina have no doubt that Putin was behind it. And in her book, A Life in Fragments, Marina tells us the story of her life and falling in love with a man whose It's only real crime turned out to be honesty. You're very welcome in the studio, Marina, and it's really lovely to meet you in person. Your book, I think, is remarkable on lots of fronts. It's a really beautiful love story. It's a historical document about our relationship with Russia. And we will talk more about that relationship.

41:19But tell us about the love story first. So this dashing but quite quiet man came to a party at your house. because he'd been helping out some friends of yours. Tell us why he'd been helping them. Thank you very much for inviting me. I feel very privileged to be able to bring my personal story to many other people who didn't know Sasha at all. They knew only as one brave man just died in London from radioactive poison. But he was a real man. He was a husband, he was a father, and he was a young, very good-looking man when I met him first time. I couldn't believe he's an officer of security service.

42:06He looked so opposite because he was quite shy, but he was quite strict. But I never believed it's going to be my future husband. I only was very grateful for what he was doing and helping to my friends. So your friends had found themselves in a bit of a pickle, hadn't they? And they were being threatened by some pretty unpleasant people. What was Sasha's role in all of that and in helping him? Why would the FSB be involved in that? I can't say this was FSB. I will just took your back. It was the beginning of 90s. Soviet Union collapsed. And the main, what all people believed happened, KGB was destroyed.

42:53or reformed what everyone believed. And it needed to build a new structure, a new organization, a new security service. Many old officers just resigned. And Sasha was one of many who joined in 1991 in a new system, even without proper name. What we know as FSB, it became just in a few years after 1991. And his work against a high profile crime, organized crime at that time, he was like operative worker. He needed to collect evidence and to bring this to the case at what might be accepted by prosecutor service. And this is exactly, he asked my friends when he met them, just to write down a statement for what happened to them.

43:44And he started professional investigation of this case. Because I think it's really important that we know that about your husband, because quite often he's referred to as a Russian spy or a KGB agent. And actually, here was a guy who wanted to do something good for the Russian state to help people out. Would you agree that sometimes people have seen him in a slightly wrong light, actually? It is always what I try to say. He was not spy and he was not double agent. Since 17 years old, he started to serve to his country. First, it was Soviet Union. Then it became Russia. And he always believed he's doing the right thing because he helped people.

44:36He tried to catch crime and he believed one day it's going to be a better place to live. What was his duty? Unfortunately, it didn't happen. So when did things start to get dangerous for him? For him, it started to be dangerous maybe after war in Chechnya started. This was all what changed a way of Russia to be democratical. When in your own country started some military operation, only because people decided to be not independent, they called me a separatist, but they were not. This was much, much deeper. And everything we saw on state TV channel, and this was crucial. For Sasha, who was working at that time in the anti-terrorist department, it was very close to these all events, but he never involved in a military operation.

45:42But understanding what is happening in his own country was very bad for him because he saw young Chechen men who just fighting for their identity, for being right to live in their land. And this was the first point, what we are doing here. And then working in the cases what linked to very high profile or politician or businessman or people working for security service. Sasha started to realize it's quite a network. It's as a mafia. And everything what he tried to bring to the light and to collect evidence, to bring this for investigation, it was just cut. His link to Boris Berezovsky is very important as well, isn't it?

46:36I wonder whether you can explain that and just remind us who he was. Of course, Boris Berezovsky was a well-known person here in UK. And this has happened much earlier, how Sasha met him. He met him in 1994 when Boris Berezovsky was rich, but not rich, rich man. What we said is just begun. And people with a very special mind, Boris Berezovsky was academical. He was mathematician. But all people just wanted to have another life, luxury life and earn a lot of money. And what was Boris Berezovsky about? And it was an attempt to assassinate Boris Berezovsky in June 1994. Sasha was involved in an operative group to investigate this case, how they became first time very friendly.

47:28Because for Boris Berezovsky, Sasha was, what I say, a typical officer of security service. For Sasha, Boris Berezovsky was a very interesting man as a new generation of people in Russia. But actually, this was not a simple friendship. For people from FSB, it was very important to keep officer close to Boris Berezovsky. And they decide Sasha Litvinenko, it would be the best things. And this is how all happened. And since 1994, Sasha was always around Boris Berezovsky, but on his duty. But was he being asked to be around Boris Berezovsky for nasty reasons? Not for good reasons, but actually to keep an eye on him and maybe do him harm.

48:20It was not about harm. I'm not sure Sasha would agree to do this. But to keep his eye, yes, they needed to know what is the next movement of Boris Berezovsky. Because time in Russia changed so quickly and privatization of oil plants, of some industrial factories became so fast. And people who started to be owner of all of this business became extremely rich. And Boris Berezovsky was even more. He privatized Aeroflot as a company that normally belonged to security service. and how he became a big enemy to all people from security service because Boris Berezovsky became governor of Aeroflot. So tell us how your husband then ended up in a position.

49:09I mean, he was jailed in Russia, wasn't he? But he served a term and was then released. But I mean, then he found himself actually needing to leave the country and to get you and your son to leave the country with him. Why was his life in such danger by then? This is all developed not in one day. For what I said, in 1994, in 1996, in Russia, happened a lot of changing. And for Sasha, it was obvious it's not all for good reasons. And when he moved to a department, what's supposed to monitoring in a very serious criminal groups, they started to receive order to make something what is not legal. And for Sasha, who was always believed if you're doing your operation, it needs to be some restricted.

50:03And this was kidnapped one person to make some problem to another one. And when it was the last question, are you happy to kill Boris Berezovsky? For Sasha became obvious. This unit was created for something more than just prevent crime. This was even commit crime, but against people who might be in the very top level. Boris Berezovsky at that time was a state man. He was working for Yeltsin, Boris Yeltsin government. And this was protocol. And what Sasha started to initiate investigation. But everything became against him. And all people who was involved, not just my husband, but another officer in this unit, they've been now under investigation.

50:50This is all process finally brought resignation of former director of FSB, Nikolay Kavalhev. A new director of FSB was Vladimir Putin. And this was all brought in one point. My husband, Alexander Litvinenko, against Vladimir Putin, future president of Russia. And their first meeting made this all understanding for what this each person in what side. So your husband did not want to stay doing the bidding of a man like Vladimir Putin. So he makes plans to leave Russia, make sure that you and your son are safe. And eventually you come to London and your kind of escape from Russia, I think, is one of the most moving parts of your book, because you really did not know what was going to happen to you and your very young son at the time.

51:50We need to spool forward just so we get the whole story in, Marina. You come to London and you are granted political asylum here. Did you feel safe, though? After spending almost nine months when Sasha was in prison and thinking just how to release him, it was more feeling about Sasha, of course, about Anatoly, what might happen to him. And Anatoly's your son. Anatoly's our son. And then when it became another serious threat, Sasha might be prisoners and we don't know, he might be even released. He started to worry about us, why we escaped. And this was all feeling so dangerous. And after we landed in London, we felt like in a paradise because we felt safe.

52:42in the first time we felt we might do something what we were not able to do in Moscow for last year, became a family, became a happy family. You changed your names in this country. So you became, do you ever use that name? I do, yes. I do, yes, I do because our lawyer who advised us during application for asylum. He said it would be easy and maybe safer for you. It's not secure your life, of course. We were not as living under protection. No, we were absolutely real people. But what you might have is trouble during your traveling because your name might be put to Interpol by Russian. and every time when you cross and when you check your passport or travel document, you would be stopped if they just decide to make your life as a trouble.

53:45And this was a good idea. Okay, we are innocent British family. But you're a common family. I've always wondered what it's like, though, when somebody gives you a new name. So your British name is? Carter. Carter. Okay, so Mrs. Carter. Yes, and this is a funny story. how does this name get to the mind of our lawyer? Because his office, when he was working that time, was in the Carter Lane. And it's just all like this. Well, why not? It could have been far worse. We've got some very odd road titles in London. Yes, and they have to say that it should be common and easy and not taking so much attention.

54:24And Sasha became Edwin Carter. And actually, it's an interesting detail, which we will come to, because when he became so seriously ill, tell us about that day. He went off into London to have some meetings. This is November 2006. He came back and he started to feel a little bit unwell. Nothing was to prepare you for what was about to happen. Even worse, he did feel well. And this was 1st of November day. We always remind, not big celebration, but we just crossed our line for new life. We landed in London in 2000, 1st of November. But that time we were already British citizens, what we just received a few weeks ago.

55:16And this was all about. And when Sasha came back home, he was OK. He was fine. and I just said, we're going to have a small dinner, I will cook and we have a nice small dinner. And when Sasha went to sleep and I came later, he started to complain, he is feeling not good. I could not understand why. And when it all started, it was just the beginning and of course not me, not Sasha expected for how bad is it. He did start to say to you though, didn't he? I think I have been poisoned. But actually, the doctors were reluctant to believe that that had happened. He was told for a long time, even after he had been admitted to hospital, a bad case of flu, gastroenteritis.

56:06But actually, the fact that he was Edwin Carter to them and not Alexander Litvinenko was a little bit difficult, wasn't it? because it meant you couldn't say, we are Russian, we may be under threat. It's believable that he could have been poisoned. He tried. He tried to say, but in a moment, doctor thought maybe he's just overreacted or maybe he's a little bit insane. This is what's like this. Sasha told me, Marina, I tried to say we are Russian. I'm just used to work for security service I'm an enemy for Putin but they look at me as I'm crazy what Sasha told me yes it was not easy to explain what is really happens to you but I've never blamed no doctors no one I just read one chapter of book of doctor who served in hospital when Sasha died Even then, in the last days of Sasha's life, nobody could understand what happened to him.

57:17It wouldn't have made a difference with that level of poison, that type of toxin. He was murdered, wasn't he? It's supposed to be, how to say, excellent, excellent murder. Sasha, if Sasha died, not in 23 days. He was poisoned 1st of November and died on 23rd. It's supposed to be not. If Sasha died in 10 days, it would be unexplained death. And it would be not suspect as state. It's never been suspected people who poisoned Sasha because Sasha would be not able to make this testimony and to find all these places where he met these people. And this is absolutely incredible, what happened to investigations of the Sasha case.

58:10He was so determined, wasn't he, towards the very end of his life, where he must have been feeling so unwell to make sure that he told his truth to the world about what he believed had happened to him and what had happened to him. And there's a statement of his that you include in the book. And I fully understand, Marina, you know, you don't want to read that out. I mean, it must be so, so heartbreaking for you. But it is remarkable, and we should just pause and think about that, that he really did make sure that that got out, didn't it? And it was read outside the hospital, and it clearly identified Putin as being responsible for his death.

58:54He just pointed him. He just said, Mr. Putin, you just tried to kill me. but but Sasha believed okay it's so difficult to say because he signed this letter when he was alive and this letter was written when he died this is all so sad because till last minute I believe Sasha will survive we didn't know about radioactivity we didn't know how is it deadly. I knew Sasha is very strong and he will be alive. This is what's so important for me. Do you mind if I just read the end of the statement? He says towards the end and the beginning is about actually thanking people, isn't it? He took the time to thank the people who had tried to save him and he went on to say, you may succeed in silencing me, but that silence comes at a price.

59:55You've shown yourself to be as barbaric and ruthless as your most hostile critics have claimed. You've shown yourself to have no respect for life, liberty or civilised value. You've shown yourself to be unworthy of your office, to be unworthy of the trust of civilised men and women. You may succeed in silencing one man, but the howl of protests from around the world will reverberate, Mr Putin, in your ears for the rest of your life. May God forgive you for what you've done, not only to me, but to beloved Russia and its people. Now, I read that and I thought we've come a long way, actually, Sasha, because I think many more people understand now the damage that Putin is doing to the world.

1:00:41But can you take us back to after your husband had died and how people, politicians, people in power, reacted to his death because it's different to how we would react now, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. This was extraordinary investigation provided by police and they tried to find all evidence what they could in the house, around in the places where Sasha pointed when he did meet two suspects, Lugovoy and Kovtun. But it was obvious, radioactive polonium, It is not possible to buy any other weapon. You can't buy it in a black market. You can't buy it in a pharmacy. And the amount of polonium is just huge.

1:01:33It might be produced only in a nuclear reactor. And this is all new. But this was just a criminal investigation. And this allowed Putin in 2007 just to make his speech in the Munich Security Conference. he realised he might commit this crime sure but nothing will happen to him our times have changed and you have played such a big part in that Marina and thank you very much indeed for coming in to talk to us this afternoon I wish I had more time but I simply advise people to read your fantastic book Marina Litvinenko what a pleasure to meet her her book is called A Life in Fragments Our Love, His Murder and My Resistance We are back next week.

1:02:20Do we have a Friday special? We do, but I need to talk to Jane about it after this. Okay. Another meeting? What a morning. What will be in it? We had a lovely man reading some poems yesterday. Oh, no, do you know, it's true this actually, Mark, who was a listener to the Times radio programme Monday to Thursday. Who texted in about his grandfather. Yes, and he came in yesterday and actually what made it, partly at the contribution of the Times history correspondent Jack Blackburn, who was also with us. But Mark read a poem, written actually not by his grandfather, but by one of his fellow prisoners of war, about their longing for home.

1:02:59Because they were teenage boys. They were not... I mean, his grandfather had joined the Merchant Navy at 15. He shouldn't have done. He was taken prisoner when he was 16. That's just mind-boggling. And he came home before he was 20. I mean, can you imagine? And mercifully, there was a happy ending for Mark's grandfather. I think he got into the hotel business. And so he had a happy and successful and contented life after his World War II experience. But honestly, it just properly brought it home, as I was saying earlier about Ukraine, that those of us whose lives have been blessed by an absence of war.

1:03:37I mean, it sounds like a sort of pompous thing to say, but you take it for granted at your bloody peril, honestly. But also, I did hear Stig was talking about, I think they were talking about remembrance services and our acts of remembrance. And he said, you know, my family, and I don't mean to misquote him, so, you know, quite a few of that generation of men went off to war and never came back. You know, we all have that story in our family. And I really hope that our children are still feeling as connected to a great grandparent who didn't make it, a great uncle who's not on the family tree, all of those people.

1:04:20Because actually, our parents could talk about the fact that Uncle Kenneth never came home. You know, that three members of their family went off to war and didn't come back. and it would be awful wouldn't it if simply through the passage of time and because you can't really put a face to those so it's very difficult names and we stop remembering stop remembering i think that's why the british legion i think this year's remembrance um events have been successful i think quite a lot of money has been raised i think um schools and and colleges are coming on board with education around all this for precisely the reason you you mentioned because we're very, very close, perilously close to losing everyone who fought or took part in land army, civilian duties.

1:05:08And feeling the gaps in the family tree. Yeah. All of the cousins that you could have had. That you didn't. Because your uncle was 19 when he died in the Battle of Britain. Yeah. He didn't have children. He didn't live long enough to have children. Well, that sounds like an absolutely cracking Friday episode. Bung it in. Yeah. Well, when you say bung it. Sorry. Carefully curate it, edit it and lay it before our listeners. I'd certainly tune in. We've got many, many fantastic guests to come next week. We're just too busy to tell you about them now. Goodbye.

1:05:51Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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