A delicious BBQ'd Charlie Bigham's and stuffing balls for the apocalypse (with Laura Kuenssberg)

0:00It's the film that convinced Americans the Second World War was worth fighting. A reason to be in Hollywood that is really quite a terrifying situation. And its production is an extraordinary story in itself. Ronald Reagan had been named as the potential lead. Join me, Misha Glennie, and three expert guests for a special live edition of In Our Time, where we discuss Casablanca. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This message is brought to you by today's sponsor, Walden University. Set a course for change. Now is the time to make a real change in your life, career, and community.

0:42At Walden University, we give you the support and flexibility to get the W. Walden's online programs are designed for working professionals like you. You'll gain hands-on skills to take on real-world challenges and succeed. Your future is waiting, and Walden is here to help you achieve it. Take the first step to make your impact. Visit waldenu.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by Shev. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by AXA Health Insurance. We are all busier than ever juggling home and work life with children who rely on you, aging parents who might need your support, so it can be very hard to take care of yourself too.

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2:09So we've just been saying some things, haven't we, in the studio, that if the microphone was on, we'd be fired. End of days. End of days. Oh, don't... There are a couple of studio managers at the BBC who are just sitting on pots of gold, aren't they? Because they've kept over the years the little offcuts that people have said along the way. And you just know that when they leave, I always think that their leaving parties are incredibly well attended. People give thousands of pounds to their retirement fund. Just please don't ever broadcast that particular bit. Oh, dear. No, it would never happen to you, obviously, Joan.

2:53What happened to me when I was there? He's bloody started on that. Anyway, oh dear. I mean, the guy had one job to shut my microphone and he didn't, Fee. You had one job to shut your mouth. I know, but I wasn't, I didn't know I was on. Anyway, look, it's the mistake you should never make, which in the end everybody makes at one point or another. Yeah, they do. It's just too, it's just too, there's something a bit childish about it, isn't there? It's just so tempting. it's naughty isn't it to say things that are a little bit obtuse or whatever in a radio studio i find that just uh it's inviting of a little bit of rebellion isn't it yeah in a rather pathetic way and you're right shouldn't it doesn't it ill becomes us is that the expression it certainly is um i was going to talk about the going gray things yesterday i promised i'd do that and then i didn't because we just ran out of time.

3:47So, roll call. So many people are sending in pictures of going grey fantastically. And it's quite a patronising expression, isn't it? The going grey gracefully. And that's not what we're talking about. Graceful is just an odd term. It is, isn't it? I just hope there's a time, and I think it is approaching, where grey hair is just full of oomph. It's not something that you then have to have a long conversation around. But anyway, here's to Etty in Stratford. on Avon. Doesn't she look glorious? Fabulous. Great glasses as well. Greetings from Dununder. This one comes from Louise. And these are all people who are very up for doing something for charity along the way.

4:31So that is a little germinating seed that we will keep you posted about. This is our weather-beaten Bristol correspondent, Holly. She doesn't look weather beaten to me she looks beautiful what she is beautiful she's 27 so she has gone gray deliberately which is which is a little thing isn't it amongst the youth i turned to eve for this do you have any friends who've used a a gray wash to kind of be more gray i actually don't but i'd say that maybe my friends aren't trendy enough okay are you still feeling the benefits of your gong bath. Can't you tell? No. Oh. Are you? But you are off for a long weekend.

5:13Yes. Yes, I mean, Eve astonishingly, you know, she said she got some more holiday. She's coffee. I do think somewhere on the abacus of HR a mistake has been made, Eve. Don't alert them to. I'll shut your mic off. Curly hair after chemo. This comes in for Tracy. We were talking about why your hair would change after chemotherapy. Excuse me, could you read that bit while I take a sip of water, that paragraph? I hope you've got my lurgy. What is happening to your hair follicles when chemotherapy affects them is that they are being damaged. This damage can make a straight hair follicle a spiral shape.

5:51Therefore, you then have curly hair. It doesn't tend to work the other way around. The curls can be quite frizzy at first, but do start to relax after a while. I've been a chemo nurse for over 15 years now, says Tracy. Well, you're doing very important work, Tracy. And thank you for that. I didn't appreciate that's what was going on. No, but thank you for the explanation. Yeah, thank you. Incoming from Joan, you look glorious, to Alison in St Albans as well. And June Cox has been in touch with us. And she also says, as a retired nurse, midwife and health visitor, I listen with utter fascination at some of your medical topics, which are not new to me.

6:27And I wonder, how don't you already know this? Well, sometimes my mum used to say this to me. She said, I'd listen to you on the radio sometimes. You ask questions. And I think to myself, well, she must know the answer to that. And I said, Mum, I do know the answer, but that's, it's not... It's not our job to answer our own questions. We have to assume a certain amount of ignorance. But I do think sometimes on this... Sometimes I am. I know, on this podcast, sometimes we are mind-bogglingly honest about the things that we don't know. But it's not done us any harm so far. No, I think maybe it's small comfort to some people too.

7:06And this in from Samantha Patterson. So all of you are saying the same thing, that you've done it and embraced your grey and it's been a really fantastic kind of honest relief for you and you all look glorious, but you would also be thoroughly behind Back to Your Roots campaign. And the idea for it, Jane, wouldn't be that everybody has to go completely grey. It's just a month where you don't spend the money that you usually spend on having your roots touched up and then you can carry on having your roots touched up. Okay, well, I've missed a colour appointment, so I'm just going to press on and see how I go.

7:41Yeah, okay. So I was due to have one, yeah, 10 days ago, I didn't have one. Yeah, but we've touched on this before. No, you can see there's a little bit of grey there. There's a little bit of grey, but it's not a great big badger comparison, is it? I'm just going to wait to see if, quite honestly, I'm going to wait to see if people notice. if they do say anything, then I might rethink. But also we have had a couple of emails from people saying, be very wary about doing it because it ages you. People will use any opportunity to put you in a certain bracket, maybe especially as an older woman, so tread very lightly.

8:17And Nora Ephron in one of her fantastic essays said that she believed one of the greatest weapons against sexism was hair dye because it kept you in the game. just kept you in the game for longer. I really wish Nora Ephron had been around just the last couple of years. To witness Trump. Well, and yeah, particularly right now, when some of the people who have relentlessly made excuses for him, backed him, I'm talking about some of the British commentariat, largely, though not entirely men, who are now suddenly being paid to write articles saying, I think Trump's a wrong 'un. And of course, I've always known it deep down.

8:57What utter bollocks. Why should we pay you any attention? Well, let's blow our own podcast trumpet. Shall we? We have said right from the beginning that he is, I mean, really several, more than several sandwiches short of the full picnic. He's bonkers. Yeah, and he's always been greedy and he has always been in politics because he likes Trump being in politics. and he's not wanted to change the lives of the Americans. And the enormous thing about yesterday's vote was not that, you know, the left wing came together to annihilate the right wing. It's that the centre-right, which elected him in the first place, just got so fed up with his promises never having been met.

9:46You know, they're the ones that have dumped him out and all hail to them. I think it's one of the hardest things in politics to give people the opportunity to say I was wrong and do it with grace. It's very difficult to do that. But all of those people who have stood for the Democrats in both houses seem to have managed to do that. Yeah. Albeit you had a pretty ridiculous thing on the horizon to point at. One way of putting it. I did speak to a few commentators yesterday on the Times radio show who just pointed out that the Democrats, they can be, talk about infighting, they can be absolutely horrendous.

10:22So it's not necessarily they're marvellous, the Republicans or the MAGA version of the Republicans are terrible. It's, of course, like our own politics here, it's a much more complicated picture than some people might have you believe. Yes, and it's interesting, isn't it? Because actually when you looked across, because lots of the news stations did montages of the newly elected Democratic representatives, and actually they don't all fit one mould, but the Republicans, in a way, they often do all. Well, at the moment they do. One mould. So you can see why there's infighting, just because not everybody is coming from the same kind of place.

11:01Can I just, Mystic Garver, just to go back into view. She's had a long rest, but I think she's ready to return. And this is based on quite a few things I've heard over the last couple of days. I honestly think the Republicans will put a woman up next time. I've often, you know how Britain has only ever had so far Tory female prime ministers? I'm absolutely convinced that Republicans will give a woman a whirl next time round to try and reset completely and offer what would appear to be a proper alternative to the Trumpian madness. I also just, I've got to own it, and I think you'll probably agree with me, we've sort of enabled Trump by allowing ourselves to be entertained by his madness.

11:41Always. We have, haven't we? Always. Do you remember, I mean, we sat on a stage in Salford right at the beginning of Fortunately, we had exactly this conversation that when Trump came on the news why couldn't and it's really, I always remember this because it was Hugh Edwards that I referenced in that example and how times have changed when we've done. But that tells you how far back it was in time. Why couldn't he just do one of his raised eyebrows and basically say, right, here we go, we're going to play you a clip of this absolute ridiculous, oafish we already knew. Gangster. arse. Yeah. But instead, we were wide-eyed with wonder.

12:20We were. And everybody took it very seriously. You couldn't make it up as a modern parable either, Jane, because he spent all of that time ahead of the opening of the polls, talking about his reflective pull. I mean, it's Narcissus. It's just, it's the story of Narcissus. And we know what happened to him. But it was just... What did happen to him? Well, he died because he was so vain and fond of his own reflection he fell into the well while looking for his own what a fool yeah but it's you know it is the yeah it is the modern morality tale of someone who can only see themselves in the mirror ultimately it ends well um thoughts and prayers to all those right-wing commentators who are now thinking oh shit i might have uh i might have got that wrong uh well it's all right let's hope my readers don't notice that I'm slightly changing tack.

13:11J.D. Vance is always available. Yes, I bet he is. Now, I feel I owe an apology to Aoife and to other listeners who thought I was being unfair about that extraordinary book, Said the Dead, that I mentioned the other day. And Aoife has been very kind and has given me the pronunciation of her name. It's Diren Nigrifa. So I hope I've sort of done that justice. Her book, Said the Dead, is this extraordinary insight into the lives and so in some cases the imagined lives of the inhabitants of a mental asylum in Ireland and it is beautiful, it's evocative but I'm not going to pretend it's anything other than a challenging read so I don't think it did come across because otherwise I don't think Eva would have emailed so I do apologise, it's so worth seeking out and I gather that Duren has written another book called Ghost in the Throat which is about motherhood and about the experience of postpartum life She says the audible version of Ghost in the Throat is read by Siobhan McSweeney of The Derry Girls.

14:14So I bet that's amazing. So Aoife, thank you very much for that. On a completely different topic, hot water bottles. Yes. Being referred to as hockeys in our household. Well, there's a bit of a theme for what other people are referring to theirs as incoming from Alison, who says our family name for them is a Walter after a character from a children's comic back in the 1960s called Walter Hottlebottle. I wonder if it's familiar to any of your listeners. She ends by saying lots of Steve Wrights. Love that. Thank you. And there are many of you doing this. This also comes in from Sally, who says the hotbot has had an evolution of names from Sir Walter Hottlebottle to Sir Water Hottlebottle.

14:59And finally, now just Sir Walter. if I ask my boyfriend where Sir Walter is he knows that I'm looking for the hot bot Right Where's Sir Walter? That's just straight out of a 1976 continent Two Ronnies have landed but is there a household in the land that doesn't have a hot water bottle? I think it's one of those things that you never remember buying one, do you? I've got about seven I mean, each one is very dearly treasured Of course, I do gather there is a health and safety element here. You should throw them out after a certain amount of time, shouldn't you? I think because the plastic can get very...

15:38The rubber. Yes, yeah. They are rubber, aren't they? Yeah. Is rubber plastic? Is rubber plastic. We talked about ignorance earlier. And still alive and well here on Offair. Let's put Eve on to that, because I don't know. We like to use the wheat bag in our house as well. That's something you can get in a catalogue, isn't it? Oh, very much so. And also, very strangely, you can always buy them in a health food shop. I just always think, no. In case, you can't eat the wheat. Yeah, I don't know. It's just quite bizarre. And it does suggest that you're not that healthy if you're looking for one. Anyway, let's bring in a younger member of the audience who's just refreshed, only refreshed, after her gong bath.

16:22What is the news? No, rubber is not plastic. Thank you very much indeed. It's terrible. Could you also look up our hot water bottles made from rubber or plastic? Thank you very much. But it's drawn Sue from Sidmouth's attention to other things in her house that are called funny things. From quite a young age, I remember mushrooms are called buggers. My dad was serving up a casserole and my mum asked for more mushrooms. I'm afraid I can't find any of the buggers. Led to a long-term nickname for them. You've got to be very careful when you're out and about with that. I certainly have. They're mostly made from rubber.

16:55Thank you. Oh, say that again. That sounded quite sultry. No, don't. Oh, my God. That's rubbish. Oh, my God. I know, we've got fetishes. Let's just acknowledge that there are people out there and they probably collect hot water bottles for that reason. I don't know. Or make an outfit out of them. I mean, all these things are possible. Sounds like you're the one that collects hot water bottles. Okay, so I do. I'm not sure that was the problem with asking a younger member of our staff to say in her very sultry voice something about rubbish. Well, sorry, I hadn't thought that through. Let's move on very swiftly.

17:30I do apologise to absolutely everybody. Emma, who writes from a windy south coast, it's blowing an absolute... Thank you. That's a sound effect. Blowing a hoolie in Hove. You must know Hove, Eve. Yes, I do. I know it well. When you get your first glimpse of Hove, do you always say it's hoving into view? No, but I think I will now. I quite like that. Yeah, OK. Anyway, she's got a celebrity spot here. She says she can't remember, have we talked about it? I've seen someone famous. Yes, we have. And we'll talk about it again because it's always a winner. Many millions of years ago, I stood behind Sir Anthony Hopkins in the queue for Spudgy Like.

18:07Now that is good. That's a good celebrity spot. Are there still Spudgy Likes? No, they're gone. They're gone. There used to be one in East West Kensington in the shopping mall. I can't remember what filling he ordered, says Emma. Well, never mind, just the fact that you saw him as good. Mine was cheese and beans, she says. Yes. I mean, it's a classic. It wouldn't be the one I'd go for, if I'm honest. What would you go for? I just think, I think blue cheese and then some greenery on the side. Oh, my. No, it's lots. I like blue cheese. You're kidding me. I do really like blue cheese. Sorry. It's like cheese you forgot to clean.

18:44It's just dirty. Well, that's literally what it is. Yeah, it's just dirty cheese. Bacteria, isn't it? I can't do it at all. Oh, I love it. nightmares for weeks after just while we're talking about baked potatoes Jane mentioned her love of a baked potato but does have an issue with the timing have you tried this prick the potato and microwave on full for about five minutes then shove in the air fryer for 30 minutes at 200 degrees I mean do you know I know the jacket potato is a family favourite and a staple across the land but bloody hell it takes some cooking doesn't it? Whichever way. Yeah. They also keep in the fridge once they're cooked for a couple of days and they can be warmed up on 150 degrees for about 15 minutes.

19:29Just enough time to kick off the shoes, jump in the shower and slide into a comforting elasticated trouser. By the time you're suited and booted, your baked spud is ready for tea. Do you know what? I'm always very reluctant to reheat the jacket potato because the skin separates from the potato and I don't like that, Jane. Oh does it? I didn't know what so there's a kind of vacuum. Yes it kind of lifts off. I don't I don't like that at all. No that sounds potentially very dangerous indeed. Okay right. I'm going to change tack completely and utterly now if everybody is prepared for it. Oh I tell you what one thing before we do that.

20:05This comes from Claire. I too am a bit in love with Nigella Fee. She's the only person I watch on the screen during Bake Off. I'm not sure I would even have bothered with the series if it wasn't for her it is the language her rhetoric it's beautiful her tone everything she's beautiful and the most amazing addition to the show uh no more to say than that nothing clever or funny shall we start a we love nigella fan club well claire we are so late to that party nigella has got the most popular massive massive massive uh fan club of really really adoring fans and you know not just people who follow her on twitter i mean there are you know there are clubs that meet up to cook nigella recipes are they yes and she's got a huge i mean she's an absolute gay icon she's got uh club nights that have been devoted to her in the past you can buy i think quite a lot of nigella merchandising there's probably a nigella hot water bottle available somewhere uh but claire i would definitely join a party of two to celebrate her within the off-air community as well she just looks amazing my kids we were all watching it because the eldest was back from university this week.

21:13And I just said, how old do you think? Is it Reading Week? No, it's not Reading Week, actually, because he's beyond first year. It's just a week. It's a week, yes. It's one of those weeks. I don't understand that at all. I don't want to be rude about university lecturers. I think they're having a hard time. No, but they are. I think they are, aren't they, Jay? Well, yes, I think jobs are being lost. But I know that's not a laughing matter. Some are paid so little. And the chancellors are paid so much. Oh, the chancellors? I'd never understood that. You're talking 400 grand. Yes. Is that not vice-chancellor?

21:47Vice-chancellor. What's the difference? I think the chancellor is a sort of semi-honorary position. Okay, and if you put vice in the title, it means you actually work. That's interesting. Should we call ourselves vice-podcasters? Yeah. Let's hope, eh? Go on. Oh, so I just had a whip round. How old do you think Nigella is? 38 yeah the first suggestion was early 40s yep higher higher higher higher 63 is she yeah oh goodness okay well well done she looks amazing yes yes she does I mean there's just no perhaps I should I'll try watching it what day of the week is it on Tuesday Tuesday 8 o 'clock so you can watch all of the news from the world on the channel 4 yes and then you just you cruise off into the baking world hello Is it the final next week though?

22:38You might be a bit late. Of course she'll be in the final, won't she? She will be in the final. She's made it to the final. Yeah, she will have made it to the final and beyond, I suspect. Don't dance on my dreams in that way. Well, you are a bit late to the party. I usually am. I was watching it last night and I saw where it was going and I was just having one of those days where I couldn't face it. So I searched who left and when it was confirmed that it was my favourite, I just switched it off halfway through. Oh, okay. yeah well i mean you can get very attached to the bakers this person's very endearing yes very endearing i'm completely with you on that very very very endearing there's no spoilers there no no this is why i haven't finished blue lights because i don't want to lose those people from my life no i'm with you on that one too i'm being very very slow with it yeah i think it was very hard i had to pause quite a long time after the episode oh no you see this is what i'm dreading that went back in time to where Sandra and Gerry met.

23:38I just had to stop for a week or so. I just couldn't, I couldn't then watch modern life in the blue lights. But it's definitely worth sticking with, Jane. I think it's great. I have started The City Is Ours. Are they still having meals in that restaurant that's very high up over Liverpool? It plays a key part in the beginning, but you don't see it so much at the end. But they're still, don't take this the wrong way. Oh, I'm preparing to be slighted. There's a house that's featured that some of the family live in, which is just outside. It's just got the most amazing... It's got outdoor furniture.

24:16Oh, yes, the big outdoor furniture. Egg barbecue, umbrellas, all kinds of things. There's a braai area and a fire pit and all that kind of stuff. You must be able to use that about once a year. Not nonsense. The weather of the Mersey Riviera, I've mentioned it any number of times, is glorious. They don't film it during the microclimate season. You can tell they're freezing. Absolutely freezing.

25:03A credit card that rewards holiday shopping with real savings. And a smartwatch built specifically for keeping up with your kids. Take the stress out of the season. Pick what works for you at verizon.com slash extras.

25:20Russell Brand is currently standing trial on charges of rape and other sexual offences. He has pleaded not guilty to them. Reporters from The Times and The Sunday Times will be in the courtroom every single day to watch what happens. Then they'll join me, Luke Jones, in the podcast studio to unpack everything they have heard. Search for The Trial of Russell Brand wherever you get your podcasts.

25:47This message is brought to you by today's sponsor, Walden University. Set a course for change. Now is the time to make a real change in your life, career and community. At Walden University, we give you the support and flexibility to get the W. Walden's online programs are designed for working professionals like you. You'll gain hands-on skills to take on real-world challenges and succeed. Your future is waiting, and Walden is here to help you achieve it. Take the first step to make your impact. Visit waldenu.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by Shev.

26:26joe brand was a guest on the podcast yesterday and on the times radio program uh and she did and it was interesting she's written a book a large which is largely about aging and about how you grow old and as she is very keen to point out it's not any kind of guide to keeping fit or wellness or anything like this is joe brand and she's extremely funny and she laughs at herself um which is one of the many winning things about her but during the course the conversation yesterday and this is what has inspired Kat to make contact. Joe uttered, says Kat, my least favourite phrase, never put me in a care home.

27:02Now in my work supporting and advocating for unpaid carers there are few sentences that cause more mental anguish than that one. A semi-humorous promise from decades before or a serious pact that someone has made a spouse to swear to, it can be so profoundly unfair to the person left to make that choice. For a carer who's on their knees trying to manage care at home for somebody with, for example, advanced dementia or extreme frailty or disability or any of the other ways in which we age this promise can weigh so heavily. I cannot count the number of times I've sat with someone as they wept while they faced this impossible choice and I've seen people push to a full breakdown because they feel they cannot relinquish their caring role.

27:47Sleep deprived from trying to manage all sorts of things, hallucinations, wandering or aggression that many people with dementia might suffer from. Exhausted by battling for the support, limited support available from health and social care services. And she goes on. She just says, bearing the emotional weight of not putting someone in a home because they made a promise to somebody when the hypotheticals were completely different. I mean, I think that's so eloquent, Kat, and you are absolutely right to make that point. And she goes on to say, would I put in speech marks my healthy 60-something mother in a care home?

28:22No, of course not. She doesn't need 24-hour care and she has full capacity. But I refuse to make promises for a future none of us can predict. I mean, I think that's very powerful what you say. Incredibly powerful. And I'd never thought of that before. And of course you would feel that you might be letting somebody down if you're not seeing out what you believe their wishes to be. But of course those wishes would change. And a little bit like what we were saying about funerals, that it does have to be as much about the people who gather to celebrate the life as the person whose life is being celebrated.

28:58Because it's our memories that will then carry on from that day. It needs to fulfil us as well as fulfilling them. They're not there anymore. I mean, I do think I've had it a bit baffling when people say, oh, I don't want a funeral. I don't want a funeral. I've made it clear I don't want a funeral. you think well to your point you're not there it doesn't matter what you think so let other people who are left do what they want to do and can i just add a tiny thing to that as well i think just have a think about where you want to be buried or where you want to have your ashes sprinkled because it's important it's your final resting place it's your choice it should be something that means something to you but also you've got to think about the people who might then want to go and sit by a grave and have a chat or might want to you know be in the moment in a place and just have thoughts about you too if you make it very very inaccessible very very difficult or maybe even nowhere at all i think that's quite hard for the people who are left i just posit that there this is incoming from sandy uh who says once again your wonderful podcast has really touched on a rarely spoken about subject.

30:04The email from the lady who mentioned that she was wondering how she might feel when her mother, who she doesn't have a good relationship with, dies really resonated with me. This was my position 15 years ago. My mother rarely showed any affection towards me when I was a child and was often critical and cruel. My father was a pleasant enough man, but like many of his generation, left parenting to my mum and he died 20 years before my mother. I've often pondered how I would feel when my mother died. Relief, guilt, actual grief. She had dementia in her final three years and strangely this was the best period for our relationship.

30:42When she finally died suddenly I felt absolutely nothing. My then partner who had experienced a childhood with loving parents kept saying the grief will hit you soon to the point that I wanted to bloody hit him as he just couldn't comprehend my lack of emotion and this position hasn't changed over the years i do sometimes feel some sadness when i witness other people's close and loving relationships with their parents but this is not because i miss my mum it's because i really wish that i'd experience that i'd always believe that as a parent you are your child's safety net there to catch you whatever life throws at you when at the death of a parent this is taken away i can imagine this must be emotionally hard as well as missing the person's presence well i never had that so when my mother died i had no adjustment to make and sandy ends by saying even if you don't read this out it's been very cathartic to write do you know what i think an awful lot of people will be very grateful that you have written that because it's really not talked about at all and it's not on you not to feel what other people might believe to be the right emotions i mean other people are always very keen to tell you how they think you're going to feel they don't know yeah and we don't know i mean i think we're all guilty of occasionally making judgments about how we think people should react to things and when it will quotes hit them but we haven't got a clue um yeah so you do it your way yeah you're absolutely entitled to yeah yeah but i think it's interesting as well that the period in which your mum had dementia seemed to be a better period for you and i think that might ring true with some people as well.

32:20I think it will. So thank you for writing that and I'm glad that we were a place of small catharsis. Well, not small. No, you're right, darling. Absolutely massive. In fact, I bring you news from Down Under. Not for the first time, this is from Jenny. You've made it all the way to Australia. I have. God. Via dorking from the sound of things. Jenny has joined us from down under I was listening to afternoon drive time radio here in Australia in fact a popular commercial radio station in Sydney they had a short segment when they were talking about Princess Margaret's lady-in-waiting Lady Glen Connor I thought oh that's interesting they must have heard of her recent book as well then they proceeded to mention a prestigious podcast from London cue Jane's voice and the interview segment on champagne and breath smelling of poo.

33:15I thought you'd be amused by this description of your podcast from down under. Jenny, thank you. We are very, very grateful. Yes, it's good when the Aussies recognise prestige, isn't it? How are they just allowed to do that? Well, they're not. No, not strictly speaking. Can anyone clip anything from us? No, I was very surprised. Are you taking legal action? We are. OK, we are. Can't wait. I don't think we are, so don't worry if you're part of that. Very successful. Flattering, though. It is flattering. Did it go up on the gram? Yes. Okay, see? And it did very well. Well, that's the thing, isn't it?

33:52It's a gram hit. You can lift anything you like from the gram. Oh, is that right? See, I didn't know that. So you lose your IP. I'm very much in the shallows of the world, which I actually inhabit. Well, it's safer, Jane, I think, out in the deep, dark sea with all of those currents. Yeah, you're right. You're thinking. Well, I'm thinking how you're probably going to be replicated by a chatbot. Well, some days I wonder whether that hasn't actually happened. No, because I would be, if I were a chatbot, I'd be much better. I think. I listened with some mirth. Don't ever lose the repeats because I cannot hear the we're in Cheltenham spy joke often enough.

34:33It's good. It always gets a laugh. I haven't talked about going to GCHQ now for days. I was going to say weeks. This is the Australia section of this carefully produced podcast. And we're still there. This is from a Catriona in Queensland. I listened with some mirth to your discussion about the UK suggesting you prep for three days off grid. I'm not surprised other people are finding this funny because, as Fia and I have already discussed, we don't know why they've settled on three days. We don't really know what it is we're likely to be up against. I mean, some sort of cyber attack. Also, the likelihood of this country being able to fix something in three days is very slim.

35:15What are the chances? Judging by our potholes. I couldn't get my boiler serviced for months. Exactly. We in Australia know how to do this from birth. We're a country of drought and flooding rains. And we know you have to be prepared for a swollen road that cuts us off potentially from the supermarket and the petrol station. Our pantries are therefore stocked with enough food for weeks. and in the areas of Australia far from cities such as cattle and sheep stations, the pantry can be stocked for months. In the north of Australia, people can be cut off from civilisation for over three months due to the wet season, monsoons.

35:51Having said that, it was to my absolute horror that I witnessed a long line of cars heading into Maccas after I'd spent a week cooking on a small gas stove post a cyclone which left us cut off due to flooded roads. I thought, what's wrong with these people? then I realised that not all people listen to the news in the same way but we all need to heed the call to be prepared for a loss of services we normally take for granted wherever you live. That's true, isn't it? It is. And I think Katrina raises a good point, that not all people listen to news in the same way. Some people don't listen to news at all and then get angry that they weren't told about something that ends up happening And that maddens me because often the government of all colours has tried to tell you and people have paid not a scrap of attention.

36:42That's very frustrating. But if we think back to the pandemic and particularly the message that we had from the then Prime Minister Boris Johnson, that we did need to stay at home. I remember thinking whilst watching that, how will everybody know? You know, is everybody watching this? And actually, I think everybody really did know very, very quickly. So even if you weren't watching it or you didn't listen to the radio, you knew, didn't you, that something massive had happened? I mean, it wasn't like it took four days for people to make their way back home and stay at home. Everybody did just go home that night.

37:18I mean, do you remember? People were being told to leave the pubs, that was it, put down your drink, off you go. And then pretty much the next day, it was completely different. so I guess we would know that something truly similar, of similar magnitude had happened because nobody would be telling us does that make sense? The point of the pandemic was at least communication was still up and running If all our comms went it changes your We're in deep shit then which is why we probably, honestly, seriously do need to be a bit prepared for something I've done my prep cupboard now Oh, I know you're well ahead.

37:59So we've got the noodles and actually all of the Tim Tams have already gone. They went this week. Is there a connection between the university graduate, undergraduate and the Tim Tams? I think there might be. But now I look at the cupboard and I think, what am I going to eat first? And well, what would you go for? Let's say whatever we're being told to expect has indeed occurred. Yeah. Where would you go first? You've got to eat the contents of the freezer first, haven't you? So you're going to eat the fridge and the freezer. Although you can't heat them. Yeah. But, well, we've got our gas barbecue.

38:35We've got seven gas barbecues. How would you cook a Charlie Bigham's fish pie that's been deep frozen for a month? You'd be fine. You'd just pull the lid down and put it in, wouldn't you? Into what? The barbecue. Oh, the barbecue? Yeah. You could cook that in a barbecue? Yes, you could cook that in a barbecue. Remember, this is the podcast that asked if hot water bottles were made of plastic not that long ago. So you may not want to come over for my Charlie Biggers. You definitely have to take it out of its wood surround. I love those little wood surrounds. So I think you heat up your barbecue, you let the flames die down.

39:12It's got a big lid on it. It goes up to about 350 degrees. It's not an egg barbecue. We couldn't afford one. For a while, I thought egg barbecue was fresh. Do you know what? I think they are such a bloody palaver. sometimes you go around to people's houses and they say yes we've done the lamb we've marinated the lamb it's in the barbecue what comes out is just absolutely it's like it's been on a pyre it's really oh I've never experienced that it's been too hot love it's just got too hot yes but I like overdone lamb if I like any kind of lamb it's that sort of incinerated really dry lamb Eve is a vegetarian oh sorry be very careful about this yeah sorry it's not springtime they're not coming Anyway, in answer to your question way back when, the problem is, now that I know that I've got corned beef and salad cream in the house, I'm going to eat the corned beef and salad cream first.

40:05Because I'm going to think we're on day one and it's only three days, and then 33 days down the line, I'm going to really bloody regret that. I suppose in the end we'll end up, because it is going to go on for longer than three days, I'll be at the back of the store cupboard eating, you know, that marmalade you bought in a stately home gift shop five years ago. I think quite a lot of people. With a teaspoon. Yeah, they're going to end up eating cranberry sauce, aren't they? And also trying to mix up stuffing balls. I've just got packs of stuffing balls. They just sit there from one year to the next.

40:39Now, we've... Right, I don't know what stuffing balls... Something about stuffing balls. Oh, yes. Minnie in Penj. I love Minnie. She's gutted she won't be able to attend the Times event with Delia Smith on the 12th of November, which I've just shoehorned into the podcast. Well done. I thought that was beautifully done. Yes, thank you very much. It is an event that you can go to. It's at St Mary's Church in Bryanston Square, 6.30 next Thursday. I'm in conversation with the wonderful Delia Smith. And she agrees with me, Mrs Minnie, not Delia, that Minnie would always choose cream over custard. Now, so I like custard in trifle, but that's the only time I want custard in my life, actually.

41:20It's just a very private thing. You don't like trifle? Oh, I don't like trifles. Don't you? I love trifles. Oh, God. I love it. The combination of all the different layers and the wonderful textures. There's no texture. Yes, there is. There's no texture in a trifle. Well, the cream is creamy. Yeah. The custard is more solid. Yeah. You've got your little jelly. And then that's wobbly. And then you've got the sponge, sherry-infused sponge. It's absolutely... And the jam. But where's the crunch? There's no crunch. It's just... If I had a last supper, I think I'd just have a giant trifle. It's for people with no teeth.

41:58Thank you, Eve. That will be me sooner rather than later, so bring it on. Thank you. Bring it on.

42:10The holidays bring brand new gadgets, bigger spending, and even more on your to-do list. Good thing Verizon gives you more than just a great network. We give you a whole lineup of products and services, Like a protection plan for your family's home tech that covers everyday mishaps. A credit card that rewards holiday shopping with real savings. And a smartwatch built specifically for keeping up with your kids. Take the stress out of the season. Pick what works for you at verizon.com slash extras. It's the film that convinced Americans the Second World War was worth fighting. A reason to be in Hollywood that is really quite a terrifying situation.

42:49And its production is an extraordinary story in itself. Ronald Reagan had been named as the potential lead. Join me, Misha Glennie, and three expert guests for a special live edition of In Our Time, where we discuss Casablanca. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

43:14well it's been joyful and now we're going to spend 28 minutes in the company of one of this generation's most hard-working dedicated and intelligent political journalists enter laura koonsberg laura koonsberg you're extremely welcome on off air with jane and fee just the fee for the purposes of this interview. You say yourself, how are you, by the way? I'm fine. I'm liking your comfy chair. And it's nice to be here. Because the last time we had a conversation was 2019. Gosh, you've got such a good memory. Okay. And that would have been when we were back at the mothership. Yes. Yeah. Did we make you sit outside?

43:57Yeah, we sat outside. And I think you bought me a coffee. Yeah, probably. And you made me sit outside in the plaza, as it's described. And we had a really, yeah, we had a great chat. and it was back when podcasting was new. I know, look at it now. Gosh, look at you now. Look at it now. I know, it's almost the second question that you need to ask anybody in the UK. Do you have a podcast? And if you don't, what is wrong with you? Exactly, move on. Right. Pay attention. It's the most fantastic detailed romp through the last 20 years of the chaos. Thank you. At the top of the political mountain in this country.

44:28But the point that you keep coming back to is that the problems that face politicians now are intractable problems. They are massive. You can't solve them across the course of one term. Do you still, when you talk to politicians, believe that somebody has a solution that has yet to be found? Yeah, I think you have to. I mean, by nature, I'm a really annoyingly optimistic person. I'm not sure I'm saying the problems are intractable and impossible. I'm saying that they've been put off and delayed and that they're really, really difficult. But that's not the same as saying that they're impossible.

45:12One of the things I write about is that they have many problems have become unsayable. And that's about a political culture where, you know, you've had it yourself. You sit down, you're talking to a politician and they might say, oh, gosh, that packet of sausages was really disgusting. Then the camera light goes on and you go, ah, so these sausages. and they say, well, sausages can be delicious, but sometimes they're very challenging. And you think, you just told me that you thought it was a load of rubbish. And I think political courage is something to be encouraged. And I think, look, one of the things that I say in the book is that it's shocking to me and it's true.

45:47And I think that people deserve to know this. Most people who work in Westminster don't think that government works. And if that was a business and everybody who worked for it went, yeah, it's a bit rubbish, that would be profoundly shocking. but there's a sort of level of acceptance. But then sometimes when push comes to shove, sometimes in an emergency, actually governments can step in and do very radical, bold things. So think about financial crisis, disaster. Actually, the UK government did step in and do a very, very bold thing. International global pandemic, actually the British government did step in and push for a vaccine that then saved lots and lots and lots of people's lives and and allowed the country to start getting back on its feet.

46:28So I think there's a difference between impossible and really, really hard things that require politicians to pay attention to them, and also to stop pursuing arguments that they're interested in over arguments that are important for people. And tell me more about the politicians' fear of involving the public in an honest conversation. Because actually what happened when Keir Starmer arrived was he did try to do that. He tried to say, look, we're right at the bottom of a very, very difficult place. It's going to feel like we are for a long time. You're going to have to bear with me. This is going to be rubbish for a while.

47:08Yeah, but he also... And look what happened. But he also didn't say very much else, right? So if you talk to people who are around then, they admit, oh, we overdid the doom. And you see now how Andy Barnum is trying to sort of calibrate that by saying, oh, I know it's tough, but oh, look at all these amazing shiny things. Now, huge separate debate about whether he'll be able to achieve the shiny things that he's mainly pointing to in the quite long term, long term, not the here and now. So I think it's about balance and it's also about candor. And I don't just mean candor in terms of honesty, but candor in showing themselves.

47:47And Keir Starmer found that really difficult. so who was the Keir Starmer that you had the privilege to see before the red light goes on on the microphone that was slightly different I mean I think that what people are close to Keir Starmer and you know and I wasn't I'm not mates with politicians but obviously you spend time with him in circumstances outside when the camera's on I mean I think that he's a very serious minded person but he is like politicians often are quite different when you're not filming He's warmer in person than he is when the camera is on and more fluent, right? Because when the camera was on, he was one of those politicians.

48:28He'd absolutely got his lines. And you're less than ours. Our audience is everybody knows that there was that kind of Keir Starmer moment where you'd go, here comes the list. We've done this. We've done that. We've done this. Yeah, my dad's a toolmaker. Right. And we've got waiting list time and we've done this. and you're thinking that is not you having a conversation with the people who are watching or listening to this that is you saying here are the things that I have on my script and I want to get across and that is whatever politician does it and lots of them do it that's such a turn-off to people because it's not how we speak it's not how we speak it's not emotional now clever politicians or great communicating politicians are often the ones where they can drop their list in but make it sound like they're just having a chat.

49:19And do you think that Andy Burnham has that? You've got some delicious little descriptions and observations in the book. And you do say of Andy Burnham when he was campaigning in Makerfield that he had the air of your very friendly neighbour who was just popping over to borrow the lawnmower. How far does that take him, do you think? I mean, I think it's unproven and unknowable. Andy Burnham is an expert politician. You have to be to get to where he's got to. He's someone who is affable. He's genuinely affable. And he's unusual in a politician. He's almost the same off camera as he is on camera.

49:53Right. In fact, he pretty much is the same. I think, you know, in a way, it's a bit like we're we're all in a sort of thought experiment. So can a government that is doing things a bit differently to the people who were there five minutes ago, some of whom are actually the same. let's not forget that can they create political success largely by virtue of having a much better communicator at the top now Andy Byrne's supporters would say look there's much else we've got better ideas we've got more long-term plans we're different and they've got a better political operation which you know the behind the scenes stuff which really does matter that most people don't see but they don't have any money but the yeah i mean there's that's what i was about to say is the situation for the country in terms of the debt the deficit the demographics people getting older welfare bill going up the the profound facts haven't changed but politics politics is about communication isn't it it's about making arguments and persuading people and it's going to be really fascinating to see and i i just think we don't know yet but what he's undoubtedly achieved already and I you know actually there's a quote from a cabinet minister in the book he's given Labour a second chance to make a first impression and press the restart button.

51:15It is quite something that politics has become so dangerous isn't it? It's appalling. I was very moved by your descriptions of where you were and what you did and what you said on the day that Jo Cox died you had known her personally. Yeah I knew her she wasn't a friend but I liked her a lot she was one of those people who had just a sort of, she was kind of like a kind of sunbeam in a room. And it was just so shocking. And if I can say, actually, I did want to say that I had talked to her husband, actually, about her being in the book. So I wanted, I just wanted to say that. But it was an appalling day.

52:02And of course, there's also been Sir David Amis was killed. Man, Widdicom has recently been killed. I mean, if you'd said to me 20 years ago, you know, when I ended up covering politics kind of by mistake, we used to sort of sit around sometimes in the newsroom and be like, God, well, how do we liven this up? This is a bit dull. You know, we were in a time of stability. So like snoring, boring politics, right? Now we're in a completely different world where the politics, yes, it's fascinating, but it has risk and danger. And that's not okay. Now, we shouldn't pretend that, you know, obviously there was the IRA threat, you know, Irineve, if you go back years, but there was a specific debate that kind of brought danger sometimes, but there's a risk and danger in the core of our politics now.

52:51And that's appalling. Will it ever change? I don't know. I think it can. I mean, I suppose what I'm saying in the book is I want, And I would love to help people understand how much has changed, how different things are. You know, if you dissect a problem or dissect a whole range of problems, then you've got a crack at having a solution. Right. And I think that I completely understand that, you know, most people aren't interested in what's pompously called capital P politics. You know, yes, what's happening with the celebrity hearing today? But small P politics, you know, whether you've got a decent doctor, if your kid's school's any good, all that stuff.

53:31Everybody cares about small people. So we have to look at how it's done, look at how it's changed, look at what's evolved. And you've got all this, you know, barriers to entry to politics are lower. Lots of ways that's really exciting and not necessarily a bad thing at all. But we have to look carefully at what's going on. and I also think it's in the politicians, as I argue in the book, they have not always paid attention and sometimes have kind of actively pushed away people's concerns about other things. And, you know, I write a lot about how the environment around immigration has changed a lot.

54:09And if you go back 20 years, most politicians would have been so careful, really achingly trying not to say anything that would have seemed sort of offensive. That's not the case now. you know politicians will kind of actively have debates and they will say it's really important that we're honest about this and then say something really controversial then say it's not controversial but what's also happened is that there was a long period of time where many voters and we heard it from people time and time and time again felt that they were rebuffed and rejected if they wanted to put their hand up and say things are really changing in my town and I kind of want I want to talk about that and I want to acknowledge that and not have politicians tell them to go away.

54:54You talk a lot about the, obviously, the other characters, the main players on the political scene at the moment. And of course, what has changed with Nigel Farage and with Zach Polanski is their unwillingness to engage with a balanced political debate. So you say quite often, Zach Polanski can put out endless messages on social media of him raving in a club or whatever. And an awful lot of people are very impressed by that. Nigel Farage has his own press conferences, doesn't often go to the House of Commons. Do you feel as a political journalist that you have lost the grip, the ability to pull these people in to be challenged in a balanced way?

55:35No, because they still, both of them and all the other sort of leading players still, I'm happy to say, you know, touch wood, they'll still come and will talk to me on BBC One on a Sunday morning. they'll still do interviews they still think it's important if you're honest does it have the same impact they can equally leave that studio on a Sunday morning yeah and send out on x or Instagram or TikTok anything they like absolutely they can yeah and it's more so I think people are being bombarded with more content if we want to use that word I think it's easy and wrong I think to be sort of really kind of panicky and dooming about it and think oh it's terrible I think actually lots of the changes in the media the fact that you know you and i are sitting in a nice i'm loving your fire uh that we're sitting in a nice podcast studio and there are there's so many different ways of having places for conversation and places for uh discussion and scrutiny and all those things but what i do want people to understand is that when politicians are are posting their own material or having their own youtube channel or their own podcast or this that and the other that is not the same as them sitting in a chair opposite me on a Sunday morning or sitting in a chair opposite you like I am now.

56:47It's not the same. And it can look highly entertaining. You give a list of the fake news that is out there about you. Propaganda is an ancient art, you say. In the course of just a few months in 2026, according to the internet, I had a hair-pulling fist fight with Rachel Reeves. I had a bust-up live on TV with Prince William, who exposes the smug Westminster bubble. Yes. I had explosive clashes with Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Rupert Lowe with mics being ripped off and politicians storming out. And according to another post, I made the heartwarming revelation that's delighted fans and colleagues that I was pregnant at the age of 49.

57:25And guess what? None of those things happened. None of them were real. And I think all of us who do the kind of jobs that you and me do, it's incumbent on us to say what we do is real. What we're reporting on is real. When I became political editor in 2015, what I wanted to do was say, I get to be here, I'm opening the door and I'm going to show you as much as I can and I'm going to tell you as much as I can. And I think that's how I've always sort of tried to approach it. And now, you know, in a way the book's sort of like, here's 20 years of my notebooks. Well, you said it was a romp. I'm going to take that, put that on the front.

58:03It is a romp. political wrong through the last 20 years. You don't always name names, though, and I completely understand why you don't. But I will not be the only reader to really want to know, certainly the names of the male pests in Westminster. Yes. You talk about a minister who always insisted on kissing you on the forehead when he saw you. You talk about contacts who definitely overstepped the line, started asking you out, assuming that there could be another side to your professional relationship. And then this extraordinary story of the potential threesome. And we just have to accept your version of events, Laura, that you made your excuses and left.

58:46But would you like to just tell us? Would I like to just tell you who it was? No, I wouldn't. No, but tell us what happened. Yeah, well, I was at a party conference. Party conferences are strange affairs. there are journalists, politicians, political activists all sort of crammed into a conference centre in various hotels for a few days. And as a journalist, it's a brilliant opportunity to sort of spend time with lots and lots of different contacts. So it's a completely normal thing to have meetings or a breakfast or a coffee or a drink or whatever with a minister or a shadow minister at sort of almost any time, day or night.

59:23So on one of those days, it was perfectly normal. I had arranged a meeting with a minister who'd said, and come to my room. Also, this is the bit that is totally normal, right? I've had lots of meetings with ministers or shadow ministers or politicians in hotels because people travel, they work late. And normally, in every other occasion when I've ever done that, there's been an advisor or a press officer or a press secretary or someone from the party in the room. So I thought nothing of this. I was like, oh, it's great. I'll go and ask about the PM speech or whatever was going on. And it was late at night because I had to do the 10 o 'clock news.

59:57so that was a perfectly standard thing anyway i knocked the door said person opened the door with a few too many buttons undone on their shirt which was like that was first of all weird that's a bit weird but but you know anyway went in uh and instead of the i could still pick i could literally picture um instead of the staffer or press officer whoever's sitting in the corner their partner was sitting in the corner i thought this is a bit strange and then they asked me if i wanted a doing this is just a bit odd this is just this just feels a bit wrong and nothing was set no kind of particular invitation to anything would was actually verbalized but i kind of felt myself kind of like sitting further and further and back so there was a sense of expectation you felt in the room yeah so I left yeah yeah and I might have been wrong like I might have been I might have read it wrong but it's the only occasion when I've ever gone into a room like that and somebody's partner was there rather than a member of staff yeah and it was just weird what then happens when you have to meet that person again in a professional setting well in some of the cases that I talk about I just complete I felt that things were I completely cut off contact with two of the contacts that I tell about someone just was sending me creepy texts and then another started to ask me out all the time which was just really really weird I mean I think the reason I put that stuff in there is because there are a lot of blurred lines in Westminster and I'm afraid and saddened by the fact that over the years there have been a fair few particularly young women but not just young women who've told me about quite awful things that have happened to them now I've been, you know, nothing deeply sinister and terrible has ever happened to me.

1:01:48But there have been lots of moments where I've just thought this is a bit uncomfortable. And I think when you're painting a picture of Westminster, it's important for people to understand how the lines are blurred. And part of it is that people care so much if they're in political parties. You know, they're kind of like families. They do marry each other, have affairs with each other, fall out with each other, you know, and people are often away from home a lot so it's not a normal way to lead your life but none of those are excuses for none of them are excuses for harassment or predestined behavior absolutely not and we've seen like in so many industries and walks of life you know there has been something of a cultural change but you know not enough and i've sat with a few male politicians and one in particular i'm thinking of who ended up having to lose their job and I'm not going to name names but who lost their job over something that had happened and I remember talking to him about it and he genuinely could not understand what he'd done wrong so there's a generate there's a generational thing here too isn't there and do you think that there might come a time when you are prepared to actually name these individuals once perhaps it is less controversial for you to do that.

1:03:06Maybe in the next couple of minutes, Laura, I don't mind. No, no. Because maybe in the one that people have got talking about, maybe I got the wrong end of the stick. So it would be deeply unfair for me to name a name. But I don't, anyway, I haven't put that in the book to try to be salacious, but I think I'm trying. it would have been really it would have been incomplete for me to try and paint a genuine picture of what it's like to work in politics without mentioning how the social side gets blurry and I'm glad that you have put it in because I think the more that we know about what politicians are like when the camera isn't on them the better we will all be and I admire politicians actually I admire people who go into it yes and that comes from life right and it's tough.

1:03:58Very tough. Privileged, yes. And you've got some letters which presumably you asked MPs to write detailing their own timetables, which are absolutely terrifying. And you do think you would go into that. We've got so little time left and I've got so many questions to ask of you. BBC licence fee, what happens to that? I don't know. And mercifully for everybody involved, I am not a manager, Thank goodness for that. Look, I think and I would argue until my dying day that the BBC is a precious institution that belongs to all of us. If you go to any other country in the world, people have huge respect for the BBC.

1:04:38We are not perfect. Of course, we're a huge organisation. We do loads and loads and loads of stuff. It would be impossible to imagine that we would always get everything right. But can a government carry on basically asking people who don't consume any of the BBC to pay for the people who do? Look, it's very clear, isn't it, that there is a discussion at the moment is about how you replace the licence fee. That is the discussion is about how do you do it differently? You know, would you now in 2026, if you had a blank sheet of paper, say we will fund a huge broadcasting and information business by asking people who go and buy one particular bit of kit to give it a bit of money like it's impossible to think that in the 2020s that would be the format that people would come up with the debate as is well evidenced is about what the next best way of doing it is and if you are going to charge for sunday with laura coons yeah how much per episode are we paying oh a price beyond rubies i'd have thought i didn't i mean i don't i don't know but then where you see this is the thing also that is part of this is what we do now and i think this is really exciting is is is it's everywhere right so the model is so different so if i think when i started it was like shock it people were being trained i was trained as a bi media journalist so i was trained to do tv and radio and cfax actually but cfax didn't get its own category i read pc facts um you know now in a normal week i will do a newsletter on a thursday i have a column on the front of the bbc website on a saturday um i'll do two podcasts at the weekend lots of the stuff that we do which we do the sunday morning show uh about a million and a half people watch that live another 250 50, 300 ,000 or something or watch on our player on YouTube.

1:06:34Clips of that will then go on TikTok and Facebook and Instagram and X. There'll be stories on the BBC website. I might report some of the stuff I've done for our radio programmes. I might do five live. So I can see we're absolutely getting value for money with you. Yeah. Some of the other parts of the BBC, I'm not so sure. If you think when you're at the BBC that you are witnessing bias, Do you feel confident that there are enough places to go where that would be addressed? Because some of your colleagues have clearly not found HR or management or editorial policy to be a kind, empathetic and also sincere place where they can go with their grievances.

1:07:23I can only talk from my own experience, but my own experience having done frontline reporting, if you like, for a long time in some very, very, very controversial moments is I've been incredibly lucky with great, smart colleagues and supportive colleagues. And can you see that other people haven't? Well, let me make this point. I think also that people sometimes you don't see what my experience has been is that when you're covering news and, you know, my team and my Westminster team, and there was maybe, I don't know, kind of somewhere like 60 or 80 of us in the Westminster newsroom in that hugely controversial period around Brexit.

1:08:01You're always in a constant dialogue about what you're doing, right? It's not like you don't sit in a room and think, ah, I want to say this, then say it. And then someone goes, oh, yes, you can say that. Or yes, you can't say that. Like, you know what it's like working in a newsroom. It's a constant dialogue and conversation. Absolutely. And you're running ideas past each other all the time. Sure. But I think the thing that I did come to realise about the BBC, and I'm not carping because I'm outside of it. You know, I was very capable of saying this when I was there. Well, that's an important point, you see.

1:08:31You were capable of saying it while you were there. Well, whether or not it was listened to, I think, is a very, very different matter. But, you know, any annoyance or grievance I have was probably about gender and in particular gender pay. And it just seemed to be extraordinary, Laura, that some of the finest journalists in the BBC who were absolutely trusted by the BBC to find the truth out there, the truth in the world and make stories about it, then did not have their truth believed. Well, I can't, I mean, I can't, I'm not dodging this. I can only talk from my experience and what I've seen.

1:09:12I've never been told what to say. I've never been told what not to say. I have always felt in a collaborative, genuinely I've always felt in a collaborative editorial environment and I've been really lucky to work with excellent journalists and I've felt supported by a whole range of different editors and managers and DGs and stuff over the years. I really have. The BBC, like any big organisation, is not a perfect place, but I would fight on the beaches for it to exist. And in an organisation, if you've got 20 ,000 employees, is there an organisation with 20 ,000 employees where everyone's going to be happy and, you know, skipping to the office every day, that would be weird.

1:10:00Does the BBC have to listen when things go wrong, including to its own MPs? Of course, you know. But I can only tell, and I'm not, you know, I'm not going to cast aspersions about things that may or may not have happened to different colleagues where I don't have the full information. I completely understand why you're asking. And also, I would join that fight on the beaches. I think a world without the BBC is a damaged world, actually. Yeah, poor old place. And look, we live in an era of contested truth and we have an organisation that exists to find the truth and tell the truth and explain the truth.

1:10:33And that's precious. Do you envy anything about Amal Rajan? Do I envy anything about Amal? I like his flying jacket. Yeah, but I mean about his decision to go and to become a multi-platform content creator. Do I envy it? No, I don't envy it. I'm fascinated to see what happens. I'm fascinated to see what happens with all of those different models. So I think what Piers Morgan has done, creating a new way of doing business, I think it's really interesting. I think it's really interesting what Amal's trying to do. I think it's fascinating what Marina Hyde's trying to do, leaving the garden and then going set up.

1:11:08She's got Goalhanger, which is a massive, big, successful production company behind her. I mean, you know, in a funny way, but it's not that different to what I've just been talking about, what we do in a way. So the journalism that I do is on a million platforms. Laura Koonsberg and her book is called Pay Attention. You can read the book on all kinds of levels, Jane. There is quite a bit of alluded to Westminster gossip, which is really fantastic to read. Laura's observations about people she's been in the room with over the years are fantastic. We didn't have time to talk about the amount of makeup that Emmanuel Macron wears.

1:11:44Why am I not surprised? But, you know, he cuts... I think he is moisturising, it's foliating and moisturising again. Is he? Well, he's supposed to smell absolutely divine, but I fear, I mean, there's, to say the least, been trouble in France. I think he's a... Well... He's a goner. Yes, he is very much. Well, we know he's a goner anyway, because he can't run again, but he's, you know, he's a mercurial type and I'm not sure he's done his cause all that much good, really. And can we just say that relationship with Brigitte is a bit old. No, I don't want to say that. Don't you? I've just said it.

1:12:21Okay. Now, other podcasters have said things about that relationship and ended up not podcasting anymore. I also, sorry, just on the Laura Koonsberg thing, if you want a potted history of what has happened in this country over the last 20 years, it is a fantastic romp through that as well. And so much has happened. I think really weirdly, we've got used to the change in pace and we shouldn't have done because it's not done anybody any good at all not least the politicians themselves. And I suppose that's what worries me about what comes post-Trump that we've got used to this entertainment loosely speaking of this abject lunatic and crook and we're going to miss it.

1:13:03Totally. I fear we are going to miss it. And Jane in exactly the same way that if you spend a couple of days eating really really crunchy chicken and french fries you wake up in the morning wanting crunchier chicken and more french fries that is where we're at with our politicians you know the politician who comes along and says I'm going to stand in the background and serve we don't like that anymore we're bored by them yeah and we don't think that they're doing anything in fact they probably are so it's a great book pop it in a stocking for Christmas it's called Pay Attention and it was very nice to see Laura now next week have we got anything lined up Eve?

1:13:39that's great goodbye by Jane and Feet at Times.Radio. Maybe you could book some people on the Isle of Wight. Actually, a lot of quite interesting people live on the Isle of Wight, don't they? Mark King from Level 42, Annika Rice and Penny Smith. Come on! What a choice. Get booking. I'll leave it at that. I used to like Level 42. Why don't you like them anymore? I just don't. You just reminded me of them. I'm going to have a weekend listening to Level 42. I'll tell you what. It probably won't be as exciting as that my weekend. Enjoy, everybody. See you next week. We have got a thing. We've got Antonis Garamucci.

1:14:16I don't know whether that gong bath was any use at all, really. Anyway, I think she's still in the hammock. Bye. Bye.

1:14:40congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with jane and fee thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day monday to thursday two till four on times radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case uh so you can get the radio online on dab or on the free times radio app off air is produced by eve salisbury and the executive producer is rosie cutler

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1:17:14Russell Brand is currently standing trial on charges of rape and other sexual offences. He has pleaded not guilty to them. Reporters from The Times and The Sunday Times will be in the courtroom every single day to watch what happens. Then they'll join me, Luke Jones, in the podcast studio to unpack everything they have heard. Search for The Trial of Russell Brand wherever you get your podcasts. you