A performative burst of phlegm (with Liane Moriarty)

0:00Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions, requires iPhone 11 or later. Dominic O 'Connell and Hannah Previtt here from The Business Podcast.

0:33Join us for a special episode with President of the British Chambers of Commerce and former Chief Economist at the Bank of England, Andy Haldane, and PwC's UK tax leader, Claire Blackburn, as we look ahead to John Healy's first budget. We'll discuss the challenge he faces trying to get the economy growing, with an uncertain geopolitical backdrop and a party that's not keen on making cuts to public spending. We'll also ask what businesses are looking for, whether the government will be in a position to deliver, or if more tax squeezes are on the way. Listen to the business wherever you get your podcasts.

1:08Losing weight can feel like a roller coaster, full of ups, downs, and being thrown for loops, like when someone brings donuts into the office, or your kids' dino nuggets start giving you that look again. That's why there's Noom. They combine GLP-1s to quiet the food noise with healthy habits that help you keep it quiet, even if you get off the meds. Their program is designed to make weight loss a smooth ride, helping you understand what drives you so you can build better habits to not just lose weight, but keep it off. Noom. Lose for keeps. Get started at Noom.com. Not all customers will clinically qualify for medications.

1:45Individual results may vary.

1:58Good. This is all content, Rosie. Everything's copy. Right, my microphone's on, but my little button doesn't say I'm on. Am I on? Speak for me. I'm speaking for you. Yeah, you sound good to me. That's really weird. Does that button... So I'm sitting in Jane's chair in the studio today, and we've got different buttons. As long as I'm recording, that's all that matters, really. Are you saying that Jane might not have been hearing herself the whole time? Yes, I am saying that. I wouldn't put it past her. No. So it's a Fee and Rosie edition of Off Air with Jane and Fee. It is a Tuesday. Welcome aboard.

2:37We hope you're very well indeed. I'm going to start off with a tiny email from Susan who says, I love Robbie. He's just great, isn't he? More of him? No. He's in exactly the right dosage. and I think Susan you know that I think you know that deep in your heart I think you know that if we had Robbie every day he should definitely be doing his own podcast but if we had Robbie every day I don't know I'd need some kind of medication by about Wednesday Well he's a bit like Cocodamol isn't he Explain Well just fantastic at the time you know really gets you where you need to be but you shouldn't be taking it every day That's a very very good analogy there, Rosie.

3:17Thank you. Very good indeed. Yeah. What do you think his side effects are? Because with Cocodomol, you can often get a little bit bunged up.

3:28Definitely that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Robbie Millen makes you constipated. You know, I don't think it's where he saw his career going. But that's what happens sometimes, isn't it? He is fantastic literary company. And I think those three sessions he's doing at the Cheltenham Literature Festival, all of them sound priceless. Him in conversation with Matthew Sweet, I'd like to go and see. I just couldn't, I cannot get enough of this book, The Great Dictator, Matthew Sweet's biography of Barbara Cutland. So even though I've read it cover to cover and had the privilege of interviewing the author about it, I'm still reading everybody else's reviews about it.

4:06Isn't that just bizarre, Rosie? Well, I've done that thing where you get quite obsessed with a person or a band and then you go you're kind of seeking out podcasts that they've been on I know that a lot of people have had that with London Falling the Patrick Radden Keefe book that people are just getting I mean most people haven't interviewed him but they're just getting every single scrap of interview of information even though they've probably heard it and I have done that where you just search out anything you can find by that author or pop star or whatever I mean, I totally understand it with authors and pop stars, actually.

4:47I think I'm surprising myself just because it's such a comprehensive biography. That's one of the glories of it. I mean, it's really no stone unturned. I'm kind of, when I'm reading all of the reviews, I'm thinking, what is it that I'm looking for here? And it's just to spend more time in the book. That's what it is, isn't it? It's also really, I read a fantastic book last year about Eve Babbitt, who's a writer from Los Angeles. She's no longer with us. And the woman who wrote it, Lily Anouk. I was just so impressed with like, wow, you know so much about this subject and you've dedicated, but not in a boring way.

5:29Just like you could just, I think when you read a really, really good biography, you can tell how much the writer respects and is enthralled by their subject. And I think when that happens, it's amazing. Yes, you're lost in the pages. I mean, I love biography and non-fiction. So it often is those kind of books that do sweep me up a little bit. Yeah, I'm completely with you on that. And I think when you hit a really, really good biography, you understand the measure of the work that's gone into it. Because actually it's harder than writing fiction. You know, fiction, if you've got the imagination, you can take it wherever you want it to go.

6:07You have to stay so true to the detail. And in The Great Dictator, I think Matthew Sweet does a fantastic job of really identifying some of the nastier elements of Barbara Cartland's mindset, whilst also making you really, really celebrate her. And it's a difficult thing to do. She had a very, very strange relationship with the theory of eugenics. Does anybody not have a strange relationship with the theory of eugenics? Not really. But, you know, it pops up in unpleasant places. Of course it does. It's actually weirdly somehow behind her very passionate campaign for the rights of travellers. And the way that Matthew Sweet tells it is just brilliant.

6:53You can imagine that by the time you've spent that much of your life in the company of the person you're writing about in terms of all of the letters and the family and the contacts and whatever. Maybe you want to polish a turd a tiny bit and he doesn't do that. But it's brilliant all the way through. I ended up respecting a woman who previously I definitely had slightly pilloried in my mind and actually, you know, one of the reasons why I went on to interview her myself was a slight kind of, you're a bit weird, you know, let's uh let's go and talk to barbara cartland not to not because she was one of the world's best-selling female authors that wasn't why she appeared on our program so all hail to him i feel i've spoken too much you really sold that book wow no i really i just can't recommend it highly enough uh shall we tackle this one which comes in from joanna who says what's happened to you two either you're an item or you're not even the others are great but it's not you so is it time to call it a day this diluted version of you is a bit insulting uh well Joanna we completely understand that when the schedule changes I think especially in radio and audio because I think we're the wallpaper of life sometimes you know and and it's important what time you listen to us and what have you so I completely understand when the schedule changes it becomes quite annoying i can't really listen to normal old-fashioned radio during half term because there's always just so many stand-ins rosie it's really annoying and the stand-ins are great and then sometimes you really like them it's just like no i can't deal with it i can't deal with it it's too much just too much so i completely get that jenny but just bear with us because as i said yesterday jane's had a really really tough year and she's absolutely where she needs to be at the moment we have a really kind employer here who is allowing jane to be where she needs to be and she's very grateful for that what it means is you are going to hear some different combinations and if that's not what you want to hear do you know what i would genuinely say just ditch out for a week or so you can you know you can see in the blur before you hit play whether or not it's Jane and Fee and I really enjoy working with Rosie, Hannah and Eve and I know lots of our listeners do but if you don't absolutely no shame on you but I would just go somewhere else for a little while come back and Jane and I will be back together again but we're not entirely sure when that will be and that depends on Ray so that's just how it's going to be.

9:35It's just not normal times at the moment but we're trying to we're trying to adapt as much as we can and you know we were saying earlier weren't we that we are quite unusual because we do do four a week um and it was uh one of the reasons i know that you know you came here was to give a little bit more but it does mean that you maybe our listeners feel they lose a little bit more sometimes but that's okay we'll be we're here yeah we'll we'll be back we're around take us take us or leave us i go through i wouldn't say there's one podcast that i've listened to absolutely every single episode sometimes i'll take breaks i took a long long break from the Adam Buxton podcast, which was one of my kind of ride or dies.

10:16But then you know what, I went back to it and then I had about 100 episodes to listen to and it was amazing. Yeah. So do that. Come back. We'll be around. Yeah, we'll be here. And we will return to our rapacious rampant form, because that is the way that we like to do it. But we just can't do it at the moment, Joanna. So it'll be all right in the end, though, is what we're saying. Now, this comes in from Alice, who's of metal clothes pegs in the Falklands previous correspondence fame and we are the only podcast that can say that Alice. Alice has got four tickets quite near the front for our show in Cheltenham which is next Thursday featuring Annika Rice.

10:51Now I've finished her autobiography challenge which she is so honest with the reader about the stuff in her life it is remarkable it is you know we are going through her underwear draw in that book and she writes with so much humour and self-awareness so it's going to be a really cracking interview and we're big fans of Annika here on the afternoon show and on the podcast anyway so unfortunately Alice can't make the show anymore for a very good reason because your 12 year old son has got to go in for a medical procedure and Alice was the organiser and the driver for the group. Now, Alice is very generous as well, and obviously we really hope that that medical procedure goes well.

11:36Alice, she doesn't want any money for the tickets, but she does wonder if it's not too complicated and four people want those tickets. Rosie is looking at me with that. Don't you dare. Don't you dare. We're getting into playlist territory. No, we're not in playlist territory. I'm going to say that if the first person who wants those four tickets, who emails the podcast, we will send them on. So we won't do a great big draw or read them all out or anything like that, Alice, but it's very kind of you to offer those. So if somebody couldn't get hold of tickets and wants to come along, Thursday, Cheltenham Literature Festival, three o 'clock in the afternoon, four tickets quite near the front, bung us an email and we will send that email on to Alice and you can liaise from that.

12:22So it's just one email you have to answer, Rosie. Just one email you have to answer. I'll make Eve do it. You'll go a long way. A post-birthday treat for her. Yes. With that delegation skill, you're absolutely on your road to the C-suite. Can't wait.

12:40Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Dominic O 'Connell and Hannah Privet here from The Business Podcast.

13:13Join us for a special episode with President of the British Chambers of Commerce and former Chief Economist at the Bank of England, Andy Haldane, and PwC's UK tax leader, Claire Blackburn, as we look ahead to John Healy's first budget. We'll discuss the challenge he faces trying to get the economy growing, with an uncertain geopolitical backdrop and a party that's not keen on making cuts to public spending. We'll also ask what businesses are looking for, whether the government will be in a position to deliver, or if more tax squeezes are on the way. Listen to the business wherever you get your podcasts.

13:48Losing weight can feel like a roller coaster, full of ups, downs, and being thrown for loops, like when someone brings donuts into the office, or your kids' dino nuggets start giving you that look again. That's why there's Noom. They combine GLP-1s to quiet the food noise with healthy habits that help you keep it quiet, even if you get off the meds. Their program is designed to make weight loss a smooth ride, helping you understand what drives you, so you can build better habits to not just lose weight, but keep it off. Noom. Lose for keeps. Get started at Noom.com. Not all customers will clinically qualify for medications.

14:25Individual results may vary. I only found out what the C-suite meant. I don't know what that means. I'm so glad you don't either. So I've heard it bandied around in conversation. Yes, C-suite. Absolutely. And I was watching something. Was it war with Dominic West and Sienna Miller. Oh, yeah. Yeah, which is very, very glamorous and so bloody frustrating. There's only one episode up. Don't do that. We live in binge times. Don't do that. And somebody mentioned C-Suite and I thought, okay, I really, I just don't. I don't even know whether this is the letter C or whether it's S-double-E because I've only ever heard people talk about it.

15:05Oh, in my mind, it's the letter C. It is the letter C. Okay. And do you know why it's the letter C? The C-suite. No. Because it's where all of the people who are CFOs, COOs or CEOs have their offices. The chiefs. The chiefs. So it's shorthand for chief suites, where the chief suites are. Oh. Yeah. I don't know. It changed my life too. I barely even know where the C-suite is in this building then. Oh, God, no. They wouldn't tell us. Well, actually, the first time that Jane and I came into the building when we were employed... Don't worry. don't worry it's not a career limiting anecdote i'll say those for nearer the end of the contract not right at the beginning another two years we're very happy to sign uh when we came in uh we we couldn't be put anywhere because i'm not sure that everybody in the building knew that we were joining news uk yeah it was a bit of a it was a bit of a secret wasn't it yeah i think the bbc knew that we were leaving um and uh i mean obviously it was incredibly damaging to its very foundations i'm amazed it survived so we did go up to the massive c-suite and we were put in the very very very very very big boss's office to wait quietly until we were called were you yes yep and do you think we would have done something as cheeky as had a picture taken of each of us sitting behind the great big desk swirling on the swivel chair no i don't think you would would you no of course i wouldn't rosie of course i wouldn't have done that it'll be up in the downstairs loo once i move back to the home counties was there some nice water in there do you know what it was well stocked but it wasn't ridiculously stocked because i don't think it's giving away too many secrets to say that the very very very very very big boss of news uk doesn't really spend that much time in the uk so there'll be no point in having oh it was the very very very very very big boss i thought it was the other still very big boss but no so so you wouldn't want to have any any perishable goods there no would you absolutely not no the first time I came into News UK was during lockdown and I'd been at home for a couple of months prepping to launch Times Radio it was 2020 and it was all very I mean very odd and I remember just being so confused by the whole thing and I went home and I told everybody I worked in the Shard and which is not true we're in the building next to the Shard but I just had been so confused by it and I was just so it was so weird to be back in society and back with all these people wearing business casual clothes and yeah I kind of got it in my head I worked in the shard and then I was here with Luke Jones who presents our sister podcast the story um and he spread a rumor that the taps put out sparkling water and I went around I told everyone that rang up my mum oh my god mum they've got free sparkling water on tap they don't so we're not in the shard they don't we're not in shard and we don't have sparkling water our water's not fizzy but i have stayed six years on well done despite it all i was so amazed i was i was just a listener of times radio obviously during the lockdowns i was amazed that the launch continued i mean it's actually and it's just an extraordinary achievement well i remember so clearly i came in to do my interview just before um lockdown and i walked out and i thought nice idea but that's never gonna i mean you the world was literally closing up you could see the you know shop tours were closing i thought that's never going to happen and then um one of our lovely bosses here rang me um in about may time and said yeah we're launching at the end of june and i thought no you're not but i'll take the job because i was desperate for a staff job because it was the pandemic and we had no you know the radio industry at that point if you were freelance oh my goodness it was scary it was really painful and i will say like a lot of i was um working on and off for the bbc and they were fantastic in it and I think a lot of employers were, but we didn't know how long that was going to go on for.

19:16They were honouring shifts, but God, you didn't know if it was going to be two months, two years. Anyway, yes, he said, we're launching this in June. I thought, no, you're not. But we did, and we did it all from home. And I remember that first meeting, there was about seven of us on the meeting. I was one of the first ones. It was myself, Stig Abel, Luke Jones was there, a few kind of random people, some of who still actually work here. They just have quite a long retention rate. And I never thought it would really happen, but oh God, it did. And it was crazy. I mean, it was an absolutely crazy, probably the craziest summer of my life.

19:49I did it all online. Yeah, I cannot, and I just can't get my head around that at all. I mean, as anybody who's been in a Zoom meeting of more than four people knows, somebody drops out, somebody's mic doesn't work, someone's camera doesn't work, someone's line goes down. You know, the idea that you can do a whole radio station remotely is just bizarre. I mean, Asma Mia was also, you know, on permanent childcare duty. broadcasting from a bedroom, pillows for sound insulation. It's just mind-boggling. And, you know, all credit to everybody, you know, like yourself, who managed to do it. But you know what, Fee, the worst thing was the canteen didn't exist.

20:27Oh, my God. We were the only people here. I think there were probably some people from Virgin, but I'm not sure what was going on with talk sport because there wasn't really a sport, was there? No, there wasn't. No, so I don't know about that. Did they replay a lot of classic matches of all time and stuff? I don't know. I've got no idea. I can ask about that. Somebody listening will know. It's a good point. But yeah, the building was very, very odd. And, you know, there was no one in here. And it's a big, it's not the Shard, but it is a big building. And yeah, there was no coffee, no food. I mean, it was...

20:58And also, I was working on the weekend breakfast show. So I was coming into work during lockdown at 2am in the morning on the weekend. Very strange. Very odd. Very odd time in my life. Yeah, but still lovely loos. I mean, no... The loos are great. they've actually just got a new air freshener in the loo i don't know if you've noticed i haven't but i'll try it out later good i'll see how that goes i'll see how that goes right uh do you know it's quite nice actually there to talk about the pandemic because we never do we you know we never do and i understand why we don't it's just very painful but you know there inevitably will be somebody who lost somebody listening when you're having that conversation but actually we mustn't forget what it was like it's madness to do that and i'll return to my frequent refrain why didn't we learn the lessons of hygiene and i say that as someone who obviously picked up a very big bug somewhere around the transport network of the uk last week was i wearing a mask no i wasn't am i wearing one on the tube now no i'm not but you you stayed with the mask for quite a long time i did stay with the mask quite some time and and i i got on the um the tube this morning and i'm aware that my cough is is just a little bit unpleasant when it gets going and i did think Why on earth aren't I wearing a mask?

22:10You know, I've sat here and tutted at people for the last couple of weeks. I've said on a podcast, everybody should be wearing masks and I'm the one who's taking all the horrible coughing and spluttering now. There you go. A little performative burst of phlegm arrived. I'm going to do this one because it's very important. And then I'm going to introduce the guests. Is that OK? Yes, that's OK. Is that okay with you? Yeah, of course it's okay. Timing-wise. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Things I wish I'd said in 1998. This one comes in from... I'm just trying to make sure that I wasn't going to... I'm not going to do...

22:50No, we can say. Katie. This one comes in from Katie. Long-time listener from the very, very, very beginning. First-time emailer, although you did share a picture of my dog Snoopy on your Insta last year. I was listening to your conversation about women being assaulted and let's call it for what it is on transport. The point about whether having experienced something like this might somehow prepare you to react differently if it happened again really did strike a chord. In 1998, I was on a packed train from Waterloo on the way back from work, wedged against one of those glass dividers and face-to-face with a seemingly perfectly respectable man in a suit.

23:27You've got to watch out for them, Katie. You've got to watch out for them. I felt something between my legs and assumed it was his bag. When he didn't move it, I eventually managed to get my hand down to push it away and discovered it really wasn't his bag. It was his hand. All the time, he was just staring into the middle distance as though absolutely nothing was happening. I completely froze, did absolutely nothing, and I got off the train 10 minutes later to get away from him. It's extraordinary. This happened nearly 30 years ago, and I still think about it now. I remember what he looked like, the exact journey, and how sick I felt in that moment.

24:03And what still bothers me, and Katie has quite rightly turned to capital letters and a very large font size for this paragraph, what still bothers me almost as much as what he did is that I did absolutely nothing about it, either at the time or afterwards, and nearly 30 years later, I'm still angry with myself for that and mortified. Of course I can think of a hundred things now that I'd wish I'd said or done, but in the moment I just froze, which is why I'm very interested in the idea that an experience like this might somehow prepare us to react differently next time. How depressing, by the way, how far we haven't come in those 30 years.

24:40I'd love to imagine the now 52-year-old me calling him out and making sure the entire carriage knew exactly what he was doing. I'm embarrassed to say, though, that I genuinely don't know if I would be brave enough to do anything differently in the moment and that really bothers me. Anyway, your conversation brought that 10 minutes in 1998, right back again. So I thought I would share it. We will pass on your thoughts to Jane as well. And Katie, thank you for getting in touch with us. Do you know what, we've got quite a few emails saying exactly the same thing. This experience of being groped on public transport in a place where, let's face it, you're surrounded by other people, you should be safe, you should be safe.

25:22It's so horrendous that there is an arrogant, perverted type of man who sees that you're in a public place and still thinks, I've got the power and the power of silence to enable me to do this safe in the knowledge that, and it is nearly always a younger woman is not going to be bold enough or brave enough to do anything about it imagine that mindset it's so horrendous and I do think and it's really good of you to get in touch Katie because I'm sure there's a bit of you that just thought when we were talking about it oh god I want to revisit that memory who would but but just by us all talking about it us all thinking if that ever happened to me or talking to our daughters our young people all of the I mean it does happen to young boys as well talking to them about it and just doing this thing where we actually just practice shouting back at somebody for many people they will never have shouted at somebody and that's the problem you don't have that kind of pathway you haven't got that mechanism opened up to you and I would highly recommend some of the self-defense classes they're so brilliant at just making you move your body in a different way so the fight or flight mechanism is broken and I think you can only do that by by practicing it by actually doing it and you're right we really haven't come a long way in 30 years at all in fact there is so much evidence that this kind of shit is happening more now and some people will always say that's because it's reported more now it can be filmed more now we will never know it might just be happening more now and it's so depressing so you know just go and maybe the next time you you find yourself in an empty carriage just try having a scream just try having a shout good but you know what i would say what's our correspondent's name katie katie i would say i've also been in situations like that physically verbally shouted out all the time on my bike all the time I mean literally to the point where you think god did you just decide today to wake up and shout at a woman and if I saw any of the men in my life acting like that I mean I'd be I'd be appalled I hope that I don't know any men that act like that um but it does just seem so rife it is a bit um a bit worrying really but I but I don't think that Katie should feel any yes of course you you wish that you could have said something at the time But don't feel, I don't want her to feel that she's beating herself up for not saying something at the time.

28:01Because, you know, you can't control that fight or flight. And I know in situations when it's happened to me, it's a physical reaction where your body freezes. And I think what you're saying, Fia, is right. Like, you just need to practice it a bit more. But don't feel any regret about not doing anything. Because that's not on you. You know, like, there is no... It's completely on him. Yeah, if there's anyone who should be feeling any kind of bad feeling about this, it's not you. No, you're totally right. It's not the women, it's them. We shouldn't apologise for a reaction, you know, that we didn't do.

28:35I completely agree. And actually, the words that Katie used was, you know, I'm mortified. Don't be mortified. No. He should be mortified. So he went on home, didn't he, on that train. and let's just imagine he got off at the next stop and he gets in his nice saloon car and he drives home and his lovely wife says, how was your day, dear? What did you do? Oh, I shoved a hand up a woman's skirt on the train because it just felt good to me. It's just a power thing, isn't it? Is that a conversation that he actually went on to have? No, it's not. So, yeah, we should definitely, definitely just report it.

29:13I mean, now we are aided by technology. so so hugely so you can photograph even if you don't manage to photograph the person themselves you can photograph the carriage that you're in and the time that you were there and cctv and facial recognition can be enormously helpful and i love those advertisements we have on the tube here and i don't know whether you have them in other parts of the country which actually detail what has happened to the perpetrators of sexual assault on public transport. So there will be just a first name usually and just details about the sentence that they received, you know, which is encouraging.

29:54It's a crime. And I always think also, you know, if you just want to, if you're in a carriage where there aren't many other people, it's okay actually just to run away. I don't know if that's the right thing to say. But if you're feeling unsafe, you know, the women of this world are not going to shout at you because you didn't stand up for yourself you didn't shout at him if you feel that you can and you want to and you practice that and that's the correct response but if what it feels like for you at the time is that you need to protect your safety by running away or running to a different carriage finding a nice lady with children as you were told as children you know do that yeah do that make just make yourself feel better that's all that's all you need to do in that situation yeah and just photograph some element of the scene where you were because and try and remember it write it down on your notes you know if you have to if you have to explain it to somebody anyway yeah and depressing it is depressing but it's very good to talk about it as well because you never know there just might be somebody listening who practices shouting thinks it through and who finds herself in a situation where our mechanism doesn't freeze and that's all that's happening it's fear it's a horrible horrible horrible thing to be feeling uh we remain jane and fee at times.radio for the rest of this week there won't be a podcast tomorrow because it's too complicated to go logistical yeah we'll be back on thursday and that will be me and eve forward slash hannah forward slash rosie don't think it'll be me forward slash uncle rupert hi

31:32uh it was yeah it i'm i think it's going to be eve i don't think it's going to be rupert i'll just i'll double check that one but i've escaped my diary i think it's do we need to talk about the playlist yes we do rosie how's the playlist coming on well look i don't want to drop anyone in it on her birthday um but i was told yeah that there was a playlist going on but i had not been i looked at the emails this morning apparently there have been lots of songs labeled up no one no one communicated this information to me fee oh um i will get i will get going on it today trouble in paradise well you need it's highly likely that she did tell me and I said yeah yeah yeah and I just forgot.

32:19You need to go right back to about two about two weeks previously on the podcast because we did say in order to avoid your workload being too high that we would just take the first 10 songs that came in and that was weeks ago so you don't you don't have to do all the recent ones. No don't worry because what Eve does god this is very boring but she labels the email so she will have already labeled them I just need to transfer them onto the podcast. Oh, okay. But you only need to do ten. Yeah, I think she will have only labelled ten. Yeah, and then we had some choices. Do you know what? I'm very glad, actually, that you haven't done it yet because I want to change my choice.

32:55Yeah. I don't want Neil Diamond with September Morn in there because I know that I said maybe it didn't matter so much, you know, that he'd had a kissing booth at his concert. But I listened to September Morn and I just thought, I'm not entirely sure about this song anymore. So I don't want that up there. What are you changing it to? I want one of those really, really... You know when Mumford & Sons do a song that is like a combination of a Sunday roast dinner, a non-right-wing black Labrador, an autumn mist and a Fair Isle sweater? I want one of those. Can you get those from Pets at Home? Yes, you can.

33:31I'd like a non-right-wing Labrador, please. I can't remember. It's just one of the weirdest news stories, wasn't it? A weird stranger. That somebody said that if you had a black Labrador and you went to the pub on a Sunday, they were symbols of right-wing Britain. Yeah, something to do with a pint glass and a tweed waistcoat or something. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, turning up in Gosport and trying to torch the RNLI might be... That'll do it. ...truer characteristics. I've never seen a Labrador do that. No, no. Just leave the black labs out. And what is the theme of the podcast? Of the podcast.

34:08Of the playlist. It's hunkered down for the autumn. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's autumnal. I'll have a think about my contribution. Misty kind of dark tunes, that's what we're after. Okay. Now, Leanne Moriarty is a hugely successful novelist. 20 million copies of her book sold, the first Australian novelist to top the New York Times bestseller list. You'll recognise some of her titles, even if you haven't found yourself caught between the pages, because Big Little Lies, Nine Perfect Strangers, The Last Anniversary and Apples Never Fall all have been lifted onto the small screen with aplomb. The TV adaptation of Big Little Lies, which Leanne was very involved with, was so successful it spawned a second series, part thriller, part family drama, sharply written and brilliantly acted.

34:57It brought together Nicole Kidman, Reese Witherspoon, Laura Dern, Shailene Woodley and Zoe Kravitz as the group of mums whose anger about the domestic abuse being meted out to one of them to Celeste by her husband leads to his death at a school fundraiser. And now we have Big Little Truths, a sequel to the follow-up with the same group of women and yet more secrets to unravel. Leanne came in on her most recent trip to the UK. We sat down for a chat. Please don't worry, no spoilers here. We started by her explaining a tiny bit of what is happening at the start of Big Little Truths to some of her central characters.

35:34Well, we're back with Madeline and Jane and Celeste and Bonnie and Renata. And we're also back with Mary Louise, who was played by Meryl Streep. And I created that role for Meryl Streep. And so I felt that I could bring Mary Louise into the book. I don't know if I would have done it if HBO had created that role, but she felt like she was mine. So she's there too. We should talk immediately about this connection between the television series and your original novels because it's important and you kind of give some advice to the reader at the beginning of this book about that distinction. So it is…

36:28Yes. Well, everything is sort of intertwined, but the fact is that this book follows on from the book. So we're back in Australia. Anything that happened in the adaptation that did not suit me. So, for example, Madeline had an affair in the series, but she has not had an affair and she would not in this world. but that's where I also have to confess the ways that the adaptation did influence me such as bringing characters like Mary Louise in and also the character of Renata had only a small role in the first book but she was played so magnificently by Laura Dern that I felt I had to give her a bigger role in this book.

37:19Now I think it's quite rare for an author to be quite so honest about the distinction between a TV adaptation and their own work. Am I right in thinking that? I think so. I did see an article that said, how did it describe that? Something like that Big Little Lies has an unusually amicable relationship with its source material. And I did say to one of the producers, that's because I'm just so amicable, isn't it? They did make it. It was a really nice experience for me. And I stepped back. I wasn't heavily involved with the adaptation. But I just couldn't pretend that the adaptation didn't influence my writing.

38:11Because it had been so huge. Yeah, yeah. Well, look, we've talked about that now. Shumpf that to one side because let's just talk about this fantastic novel. so I imagine that you have enjoyed writing these women as they get older there is something about how particularly Madeline leaps off the page with her menopausal symptoms and bunions frozen shoulders are tackled where I just thought oh this is so the book for my age group was there a real joy for you and being able to put your age on the page as well. There was, but I guess that's what I've been doing all along. Ever since I wrote my first novel, I was in my 30s and so my characters were in their 30s.

39:01I guess because it's my first sequel, when I originally wrote them, it began with Madeline's 40th birthday. This begins with her 50th birthday. So, yes, it was really fun to think of those characters and giving them all the indignities, I guess, of middle age. So there are indignities that are also enormous strengths though, aren't there? And somewhere, and I can't remember which character you give the words to, but there's a slight nod to should we always be talking about the indignities of our age. Oh, yes. I have Madeline because I do think it's wonderful that we're speaking so openly about menopause but I did think that a character like Madeline might think it's not that pretty.

39:59Let's not talk about it that much. So, yeah, the balance. We have to get the balance. Yeah. Have you had a frozen shoulder? No, I have not. I've had friends, lots of friends. You write about it very well. It does take a very long time. Yes, it seems terrible. This is about friendship and how friendship develops through the years. It's also about the shadow of bad things in people's lives, isn't it? It's about the shadow over children of what their parents have done. Can you tell us a bit more about that theme? Yes. Yes, so obviously a lot of – oh, one important thing to say though is that this book I deliberately wrote as a standalone book so I didn't want people to feel that they had to have homework to go back and reread the last book because I can hardly remember what happened in the last book.

40:55But obviously there were a lot of traumatic things that happened And so it was just interesting to consider what their children would know, what the parents would think, would assume they knew, because I think that happens a lot, that you think your children know something and they're completely oblivious to it, or some things where you felt it was important to keep it a secret, and some things that they knew all along. And this is a group of friends and their children who have known about the horrible domestic abuse between a husband and his wife and also the sexual assault of someone who remains in their group.

41:41So these are big things, big transgressions. Yes, but they're just leading their normal lives. So how do you incorporate these horrific things that happen to their parents? And how much do you share with your children? I love the way that you write about the teenagers because actually you give them such sharp and funny voices. And there are different ways of writing in the book, aren't there? There's a WhatsApp group with the parents that is hilarious. Yes, yes. And there is a kind of a mental health workshop that the teenagers are involved in. The teenagers. So in the first book I had the Greek chorus of the parents in the school community, whereas I think once your children get older, the other parents are not quite as important.

42:41You step back a little bit and you don't see them as much at the school gate. their voices on the WhatsApp and the kids now, they're the Greek chorus, so they're describing the story. Have you been part of a parental WhatsApp group yourself? I have and you know what, the only thing that I, I'm a lurker and so there was one parent's WhatsApp group where the only thing that I said was one day when I was out walking the dog and my phone was bumping against my leg so the letter A, capital A, was just being repeated over and over so it was like I was just screaming on WhatsApp. So this woman who said nothing suddenly just starts saying ah and my husband was ringing me saying you're on the WhatsApp, you've got to get off and then I needed a child to help me work out how to delete a message and And then it looked worse because then people were saying, so I said, sorry about that.

43:48And then people were saying, what did you say? So it looked worse that I deleted it. And do you find that actually you have to be very circumspect because of who you are about what you put in a public forum like that? I was aware that some people might think that's that writer who is now just screaming. Because the temptation is to screenshot, isn't it? And then send it on to another WhatsApp group and say, Look what Leanne L 'Oriotti's done. Do you enjoy your celebrity? You're often described as Australia's least celebrity celebrity author. Really? Yes. Well, I always feel that my level of fame is the perfect level of fame because the only people who would know me are people who like my books.

44:39If they didn't like my books, they wouldn't know who I was. So just every now and then if I'm in the supermarket, I'll get somebody will just lean over and say, love your books and then just keep walking, which what could be lovelier than that? And then the rest of the time people are really rude to me, which is good because I need that for my writing material. Right. How are they rude to you? No, I mean rude in just normal, you know, in the way people are rude in normal day-to-day life. Yes, just brisk. Yes, to another human being. Yeah. Whatevs. Have you found that your success has changed your energy or creativity?

45:22There must come a pressure, especially with a sequel to an enormously successful book, TV adaptation, to better that, to deliver that. How does that feel as a writer? I did feel the pressure with this one because I made the mistake of after dithering for a long time as to whether or not I should write a sequel and then when I had my, I was actually writing a book set in a high school and then I suddenly decided I could give that plot to the Big Little Lies world and then I said to them I'm going to do it and they're used to things happening much quicker in well with the writing that's where they used to just provide an outline and I don't outline because I don't know what's going to happen until it happens so I so then they were saying we want it right now whereas publishers they're a bit nicer to you they treat you a little bit more when it's ready.

46:27So the severed finger which is in this book which arrives in the school, in the headmaster's office, in a cardboard box. That was part of a plot in the book that was set in the school? No. Or that came along? No, the severed finger came after. The main, which you'll see that, it's hard to talk about it. Okay, let's not talk about it then. You'll see that that's the part that was in the, yeah. Yeah, yeah. When you say that you don't really know what's going to happen in your books as you write them, I'm intrigued by that. So where is it coming from in your brain to take the story on? Well, I'm just always thinking as I'm writing, maybe this will happen or maybe that will happen.

47:25And so I'm just thinking I know enough to write this scene and then little things will come out of that scene that will help push the story along. So in Big Little Lies, did you genuinely not have the ending? I mean, I think we can probably talk about what happened in that. I imagine an awful lot of people, most people have seen it already by now. How did that all progress? What I knew was I had that incident. I wanted an incident in a playground that led to something dramatic happening at a school fundraiser. So I just knew those two things. And I knew I wanted the women all dressed up as Audrey Hepburn and the men all dressed up as Elvis, just because I thought a group of Elvis's is somehow comical.

48:21But I remember originally thinking maybe more than one person would end up dead at this school fundraiser. And I remember somebody saying, oh, that's a bit much.

48:35Which it probably would have been... Because just one at a school fundraiser, Leanne. That's fine. That's enough. Just one's enough. Yeah, so and then it gradually comes together. But I do always feel that I need to say that it doesn't just fall perfectly into place, that I'm not just and then it's all falling together. I have to then go back and change things. Ian Rankin said something very interesting a couple of months ago about his writing that actually the thing that he regretted was because he thinks about his characters so much he might have actually missed being there in real life at important events for his family for his children because he's with his fictional characters thinking oh that might be something I I could lift out of real life for them what's happening to Rebus at the moment.

49:27Do you have that kind of constant writer's voice going on in your head? I don't think enough so much that I don't feel like I'm present. I do. Once I've finished writing, then everything feels a little bit blurry. And I may be greedy for material all the time. I can feel that in me, that I'm thinking anything that anybody says. But I don't think that means I'm not. No, I don't. So you can shut it down. I think so, yeah. And you've also said that your writing has a kind of hourglass structure to it. Do you mean literally you have an hourglass that goes, this is the amount of time I'm writing for today?

50:15I did talk about that. A friend gave me a beautiful hourglass and I would use that just as for writer's block to say you have to write. Actually, the truth is I broke that hourglass. I pushed something on my desk and it's broken at the moment. But I could have done the same thing with just a timer on my phone. And is it always the same time of day that you have your cracking creativity? No, I'm not one of those people with one of those amazing routines where they get up at this time and then work for this many hours. It's a little bit more haphazard. Is there anything else that you could have done to this level of success in your life?

51:05No. Excellent. Good answer. Well, I was working in advertising and marketing and I was okay at that. There's nothing else I can do. But that's an interest. I mean, quite a lot of very successful writers. Bonnie Garmus was in advertising and copywriting, wasn't she? Yes. She had the famous story at the meeting where nobody listened to her. I love that story. And that's where she started writing lessons in chemistry. And it must be very frustrating if you're coming up with these amazing slogans and really insightful words for other people's brands. And then the clients don't. Yes. Yes, that was part of it.

51:56But I was ready to let that go. I mean, really, I wanted to be a writer. I was writing a lot of first chapters that didn't go anywhere. And it's in your family, isn't it? Yes. So it was my sister when she got published first. So I was, at that time I was very corporate and I had the big shoulder pads and the big hoop earrings and a corner office with a view of the car park. How could you give that up? I know. Corner office. I know. Then she called and said her first book had been accepted for publication. So that was what drove me to finally write my first novel. And how is that sibling rivalry now?

52:44Well, we always say, and it is true, well, she's a brilliant writer. I should also interrupt to say she has a new book out called Time Travel for Beginners, which is extraordinary. And she is a genius. But we are competitive about family anecdotes. anecdotes. So I will say to my mother, if she's on the phone and she starts telling me a story, I will say, stop right there. I want it on the record that I want this story. So because obviously if a sister uses it in a book, then it's off the table. Wow. I mean, that's putting your mum in a really difficult position. She's got to think of equal anecdotes for different telephone conversations.

53:26That's right, yes. And you're mean. I believe that occasionally you might let your ears graze across our podcast. I do, although since I've been, I feel it's so funny talking to you because since I've been on book tour, I haven't listened to you, so I don't know what's happened in the last couple of weeks. So is everybody okay? Well, everybody's absolutely fine, Anne. And as a regular listener, you will know that nothing of consequence ever happens when we turn it into content. But we've had a lovely, lovely thread about supermarkets and quite a lot of our Australian listeners. And Jane and I are so amazed that we have so many listeners in Australia.

54:06It's absolutely wonderful. They have basically told us that Australian supermarkets aren't that great. And that one of the joys of the UK is the plethora of supermarket options that we have here. We would love your opinion on this, please. You do have some beautiful supermarkets. But I do find that whenever you leave the country, other people's supermarkets always seem so special. You probably, you might think the same. They are joyful things. And actually I think that's where our conversation started was, and actually I can't remember where it started, but for me personally it's two things in a foreign place, go to the local supermarket, find the local radio station.

54:49Oh, yes, yes, exactly. plug in. You're in that world. But I can't believe that Australian supermarkets are not places to be in. No, I think we do have some nice, I know you won't come to Australia again, will you? It's very far. Yes, I know. It's very, very far. But if you did, then I bet you'd find some that you like. Okay, are you a big shopper, a great big once a week shopper, or are you a, I'll create any excuse to pop to the shops kind of a shopper? I don't really like going to the shops that much and I must admit we've got a bit hooked on Uber grocery deliveries, so getting somebody else to pick up your groceries.

55:37So I don't really have any right to say supermarkets are wonderful if I'm not really going to them anymore. That's very honest. And amongst the wonderful women that you write about in your books, is the one out of them who really stays with you, you know, who's really kind of in your bone marrow? I did really love Cherry in Here One Moment. So she's the first one I've written from when she was born, right, until she's in her 70s when the book ends. And I gave her a lot of my mother's childhood. so she's really special to me. But whoever I'm writing about at the time, I'm thinking about them. I do remember walking down the street when I was writing Apples Never Fall and A Woman Walked By and I thought, oh, there's Joy.

56:33She looked exactly like Joy did to me in my head. Yeah. It's such a pleasure to see you here in person. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. And obviously if we do ever get to Australia. No, you won't. Me and the Garvey. She won't. She won't for sure. Can we meet in a supermarket? Definitely. We'll go shopping together. That would be absolutely lovely. Leanne Moriarty, such a pleasure to see her in person. And Big Little Truths is out now. We'll talk to you on Thursday. I'm spent. I'm going to have a little antiseptic lozenge. I'll turn you off. And a light on, please. Yeah, turn me off now.

57:15More powering down.

57:33congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with jane and fee thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day monday to thursday two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

58:40Apple Watch Series 12

58:45use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Dominic O 'Connell and Hannah Previtt here from the Business Podcast. Join us for a special episode with President of the British Chambers of Commerce and former Chief Economist at the Bank of England, Andy Haldane, and PwC's UK tax leader, Claire Blackburn, as we look ahead to John Healy's first budget. We'll discuss the challenge he faces trying to get the economy growing, with an uncertain geopolitical backdrop and a party that's not keen on making cuts to public spending. We'll also ask what businesses are looking for, whether the government will be in a position to deliver, or if more tax squeezes are on the way.

59:24Listen to The Business wherever you get your podcasts.

59:32Welcome to the Haunted Library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place From gothic masterpieces to pulpy penny dreadfuls Join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week Find The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts