Are you here for the Rugby or for Harry Styles?

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0:41is this working nothing's working nothing's working in london because we're all too hot um right welcome to tuesday's off air with jane and fee uh which is a misnomer because there's only jane and today not eve who's off with her glands it is her glands isn't it yeah it's her glands yeah yeah this is the voice of executive producer rosie just tell us a bit more about yourself rosie come into the room for me well i'm a i'm a sub for eve he's a sub for fee so i feel a bit subpar actually yeah you're the jordan henderson uh except you haven't broken your wrist Not yet. But he is there for vibes. And I'm quite happy to be here for vibes.

1:25I might not do any actual work, but if I keep the team together... Yeah. So, yeah. Can I just say, don't be so hard on yourself. We could all do a bit more, Rosie, including me. Don't you worry about it. So, sending lots of love and best wishes and get well soon to Eve, who does wrestle a bit with her throat, which, in a way, is... I mean, her voice is glorious. It's a thing of beauty. but she does occasionally struggle with it so you need to see a doctor we've all been telling her haven't we we have she eve just likes the she just likes the joy in life and uh i think it is to the detriment of her of her vocal yeah chords yeah sometimes you've just got to rest you really have anyway welcome big guest today is the fantastic novelist she shifts so many books it's Lisa Jewell and I've got to say that um her latest book which I read while I was away last week god it's creepy it really it really is I mean I'm gonna have to put it to her it's called it could have been her and um let that mean look people love this stuff but I've got to say um although I read it very very quickly Rosie um it did unsettle me it really did it's set around Hampstead Heath.

2:40Now, I have been to Hampstead Heath, but I don't know it very well. Do you know it? Yeah, a bit. Yeah. I think for people who don't live in London, it's a bit of a mystery. So I am going to ask Lisa to tell me why. It's quite big. It's not... It's very... It's a bit wilder than you would expect. Not like Hyde Park or Regent's Park. Nothing like that. It's not a park. You're right. Sorry, it's a heath. It's a heath. Anyway, you'll have gathered by now that Rosie isn't an expert on Hampstead Heath. so perhaps we will ask Lisa about that. I've been. You've been, yeah, I've been. Ever been in the ladies' ponds?

3:15No, I haven't, actually. No, nor have I. No, I would like to. Never actually seen it, so I don't know. Me neither. I don't know what the vibe is like down there. If you are a wild swimmer in the ladies' pond, let us know. Maybe that's where Fee is. No, she's in Austria. In fact, I've got a message about Austria, which I will... Here we are. Let's go to that first. It's from Catherine, who's in a place I'd never heard of, but you might know this, because you're loosely speaking from this part of England. and Rittle, near Chelmsford. That's Essex. All right. I'm from Suffolk. Same thing. I did work in Essex for a long time.

3:46With a W. Do you know it? Rittle with a W? Yes. No, I can't say I know it. As fee is off, writes Catherine, on her Austrian lake holiday, I thought I'd throw in a word of caution. As a lover of cold water swimming, I've enjoyed a dip in quite a few lakes around Europe. Many of these also offer lovely lakeside soreness. usually separate facilities for men and women. Well, one year we were staying with Swedish friends next to a beautiful lake where we'd go for a lovely, if chilly, early morning swim. One day we got out, however, to find that the ladies' sauna had been vandalised and was out of action.

4:23My intrepid Swedish friend called out to her husband and after checking it was OK with the others, he invited us in to the men's sauna. Can you sense what might be coming here? Yes. Yeah. imagine my expression when faced with a row of naked Swedish gentlemen sitting at eye level with my bewildered partner on the lower bench keeping his towel firmly wrapped around him. For the next ten minutes my partner and I made polite conversation about our trip and English football while trying to keep our eyes firmly fixed on the ceiling. This was made more difficult by the men taking turns in pouring water on the flames by bending over in front of us.

5:01It was a lakeside holiday I will never forget. that slice of life there from Catherine in Rittle in Chelmsford or near Chelmsford. Thank you for that. Still nothing about Rittle coming to you? If it's near Chelmsford, I probably have driven through it or past it. Yeah, OK, that's enough. Sometimes I used to go out in the radio van, just have a look around. Great, good times. If you haven't driven a radio van, you've never lived, and I have driven one, and I'm still here to tell the tale, but it wasn't the easiest thing. The thing I had to drive was an Austin Montego estate with an aerial on top of it.

5:40You can't even visualise that. I don't know what an Austin... Montego. No, I think pretty sure it was an Austin Montego. This is a bit of a section of the podcast for car lovers. There will be people out there who will be able to tell me if that's possible or not, an Austin Montego estate. It was a really unwieldy beast. And as someone who was the proud owner at the time in my private life of a Fiat Panda, Driving one of these things around Herefordshire and Worcestershire was quite the task, quite the undertaking. I think they're... I think they're Volkswagens now. Are they? Potentially. OK, if you're in local radio and you drive a heavy vehicle, please do tell us exactly which one it is.

6:18Now, Veronica makes an important point, and it's criticism, but you know what, sometimes, Rosie, you've just got to acknowledge it, haven't you? I hate that my first missive to you is a bit negative, she says. I've been listening for years now with barely a ruffle well she says there was that business about the plastic grass okay sorry but I couldn't let this one pass without a word Robbie Mullen Millen it is actually made a few comments yesterday that I thought were a bit inappropriate but his description of a murdered son's womanising with blonde bimbos would have raised my eyebrows on GB News and to my amazement Jane didn't make any comment I will not let this quite uncomfortable blip no doubt caused by an abrupt return from holiday spoil my enjoyment of your show and hopefully I can continue lurking without making further contact we always say we're grateful for people who email in we're also grateful Veronica for the silent lurkers and please do return to being a silent lurker if that's what you want to be because we appreciate many of you in that position and I'm sorry I should have said something um Robbie is um he's a man who inhabits inhabits inhabits uh inhabits a certain a certain world and uh sometimes his world collides with ours in a delightful way and other times there's more of a collision and uh I should have said something Veronica so this is my ham-fisted way of saying I'm sorry and I'm sorry you were offended is that do you think you're the executive producer does that work?

7:50Am I being made to make executive decisions live on air? Yes, please. I think that's fine. Robbie is he's a man that is... He's a man. Well, he's a man. And maybe that's the issue here. But the real fault lies with me for not intervening immediately and saying you just can't say that, you just shouldn't say it. It's actually just very old-fashioned and wrong. It's a bit 90s, isn't it? It's a bit more than a bit 90s, yeah. So I hope that satisfies Veronica you continue to lurk we love to have you there now I knew people would want to talk about kitchen roll I mean it's great to do this while fees away because she has outed herself as being someone who doesn't use kitchen roll I do I've always been the proud owner of it and I often wonder how we cope before kitchen roll entered our lives are you a kitchen roll positive person I knew you were going to ask me this um I love kitchen roll yes and I feel I feel really old when I say this, but it's just a bit of a treat if I have it.

8:52I don't often buy it. You know what, we'll have it if we have a barbecue or something. But I wouldn't say it's not on the weekly list, no. I do a lot of washing of tea towels and napkins and things. Well, your partner is a chef. He is, yeah. Does he not do washing of his own tea towels? Well, they're our tea towels. I'm not washing the restaurant's tea towels. Oh, I see. Yeah, sorry. No, no, no, no. They've got their own system for that. um no but i would say that we we use this this is so dull no darling it's not dull this is golden because people have had more emails about kitchen roll than anything else so so we use just a lot of we're a re-user household so we're using a lot of cloths a lot of tea towels um and we're kind of wiping services but then i'm putting them on a hot wash every time so i don't know maybe it's actually better for the environment to have let's move on to the slightly sexier angle of food and And whether or not, does he cook?

9:43Because I know he's a great chef. Does he cook for you at home? Yeah, he does. He works a lot. He's out most evenings. But if he's in and he's not absolutely, you know, zonked from the week, then yeah, yeah, he will cook. Okay, and just give us just a tiny glimpse of his culinary brilliance within the home. Something simple we could all have a go at. Oh, he makes a great, I mean, it's a very basic thing, but he makes a very delicious roast chicken with kind of roasted onions. and we often don't roast a whole chicken, we'll just do legs and then to go alongside it, we just do French fries as the French would do.

10:18I think it's quite a classic like Sunday French meal. You get like a rotisserie chicken almost, French fries and then he'll make a peppercorn sauce but with coconut milk and it's quite spicy. Okay. Yeah, it's really nice. We have that a lot. And he's Italian so there's a lot of pasta and in the winter he's from a mixed background so we also eat a lot of curry. Yeah. Well, I think that's actually quite helpful. I like the idea of a peppercorn sauce with chicken. I've never thought about that. Oh, yeah, it's really yum. Really, really yum. OK. I heard Jane, says Rachel, talking about French kitchen roll with perforated half sheets, claiming it was a French brainchild.

10:56I did think it was. I've been so put in my place. Rachel says, I'm afraid it's not only the French who are doing this. Far from it. I found some at my local Sainsbury's on Green Lanes. That's the Winchmore Hill Sainsbury's if we're being posh. does that ring bells well i live near there so excellent sadly i've oh this is a negative sadly i've never been able to find it again and i can't remember which brand it was thank you for giving me an outlet to share this important discovery i started telling my husband how brilliant half chic kitchen roll was then stopped halfway through thinking just how boring it would sound to him i am a third time emailer i previously wrote in during the does anyone listen from hartfordshire section and I also sent a long rambling email about my experience with ancestry DNA testing.

11:43The last couple of years have been quite something. I've discovered that the man I thought was my dad wasn't and that I'm actually half Cypriot and that's weird because I live off Green Lanes in London and moved here some years before finding out about my heritage. That's significant isn't it because that part of London is full of people from that part of the world. Yeah that's really interesting i've had and i'm now recovering from early stage breast cancer and i've just been made redundant i'm hoping that's my three if things really do come in threes oh rachel that's really grim sorry to hear about all of that hope you're okay now thank you for the chat she says whether they're about the world cup geopolitics or the finer points of half chic kitchen roll they are a genuinely lovely source of company and distraction that's what we're here for isn't it Absolutely.

12:30I hope the kitchen roll comes back. Well, there is hope. I'd like to agree with Jane about kitchen roll. I never use a whole sheet, writes Helen Louise. I buy mine in Rossman's shop. They're made from recycled cardboard and they have serrations for whole or half. It's tough and practical, especially when you've got ten cats. Let's move along to Dawlish. Dawlish is in Devon. That's right, isn't it? Dawlish? Devon? in answer to your french kitchen roll request request but it's difficult to say we do have it here in blighty she says it's sold in sainsbury's and it's on a cardo it is the plenty flexi sheet i bought it and didn't realize what i bought it's so useful and environmentally friendly as well now if it was called alav off i think it would fly off the shelves i think you might be right there.

13:21Sue in Dorlish, thank you very much for that. And Rosie was hinting earlier, as you get older, you start to delight in simpler things. And I've just invested in some new, really sturdy pegs for the line outside. And I did say to my daughter this morning, you haven't mentioned the pegs. And she just looked at me with a look of genuine pity. She said no, because I'm in my 20s. Yeah, because I'm 23. If you felt stuck trying to lose weight, you're not alone. Enter Weight Loss by HERS. It's designed to support you in reaching your goals. And HERS now offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the WeGovi pill and the WeGovi pen.

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14:49Sarah says, I've just got, we were talking about people, I wanted to hear from people with just not a shred of interest in sport. And I do find it interesting because I love it and I just love it for the jeopardy and the drama. Sarah says, Jane, I've just got no interest in any football. When asked if I know the names of any footballers, the only one that springs to mind is Kevin Keegan. I mean, Sarah, he was a footballer. She's not wrong. No, but he peaked a while ago. Actually, he's not too well at the moment. So I think that was the last time he cropped up in the news. So I hope he's all right.

15:23Sarah says, I did go to a football match when I was first dating my now ex-husband. I thought the game was dull. I thought the crowd was scary. I do like rugby and the crowd at rugby are... I think you're being a bit bold here, Sarah. The crowd at rugby are far more like the crowd at Harry Styles. I've not been to see Harry Styles and I've not been to a rugby match in 20 years, so I couldn't possibly comment. I tell you what, either Harry Styles' audience has changed or rugby has changed because I don't... Sounds like progress. Yeah, yes, possibly. Holly is in Whitley Bay. And do you know what?

16:00I don't think we've ever heard from Whitley Bay before. So come on in, Whitley Bay, and thank you, Holly, for taking part. Jane asked people to contact if they are someone with no interest or zero interest, pretty much, in any major sporting event. I would like to metaphorically introduce my husband, Mark. We've been together for 23 years, and I can honestly say I have never met a man less interested in sport. I was going to say anyone less interested in sport, but then I remembered that my mum gives him a run for his money, which is unfortunate for her given my dad's total obsession with it. When I was growing up as an avid football and hockey player half an hour away Mark was already cultivating his disdain for all sport.

16:41He can't really explain it except to say he isn't remotely competitive can't identify with the sentiment involved in supporting a national side and just can't see the point. He was dreading Monday morning after the England win because he knew people at work would try to talk to him about it. I have suggested he adds an appropriate status message on teams to set people's expectations during the World Cup or maybe just throughout the year to take into account the domestic football season as well. Do you think that's formalising something, isn't it? A status message on teams. Would that be all right?

17:24Well, I don't use Teams, so I don't know what people put on there. No. But I feel that... I did once work with a woman at Woman's Hour who didn't like tea or coffee and didn't like to waste time discussing tea and coffee and so hung a homemade sign over her desk saying, No hot drinks. But did people not just ask her about the sign? Well, this is the thing. You then got a conversation going about, oh. I think conversations about sport can be quite exclusionary for women in the workplace yes that's true do you know what that was like you make a very good point there because when I first started in radio it was male dominated and the newsroom at a local radio station if England were playing in a test match in the cricket the men would quite routinely stand around with their hands in their pockets watching the telly not doing any work as far as I could tell and discussing the cricket and yeah you do feel if you're not interested you think well should i be interested i do notice uh we have great colleagues here at times radio um and at the times but i know what i know what's coming do you yeah you're talking about the men who watch the cricket on their ipads i wasn't going to but that does that there are there are quite a few ipads yeah with the cricket on no i was actually going to say that um i noticed that because i do follow football and i particularly like a national tournament i love the world cup i love the euros um but i noticed that men just don't naturally speak to women about sport whereas if there is a man working on the team i do notice that the conversation will just kind of come naturally whereas i have to really yeah okay kind of inject myself into it they won't ever turn to me and ask me what my thoughts are about arsenal winning the league for example well i don't really want to know your thoughts on that I really don't really have any thoughts.

19:15I've pretended that hasn't happened. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate Declan Rice because I think it's perfectly possible to do that. I think that's OK. I do also think with this gentleman, it feels... I do kind of understand the league sport throughout the year, but this feels like a national event and it might not be wrong just to have an opinion on it. Well, I suppose that's the bit I don't get. I think if something is consuming a lot of people in the country, And it doesn't matter what that is, by the way. It could be some sort of significant royal event, say, which a lot of people are not interested in, but some people are.

19:52So to be completely dismissive of something like that always feels to me to be just a bit wrong. So it was like when the Queen died. Some people felt absolutely wretched about it, and that's OK, and they should be allowed to feel that way if we're all going to go bonkers in the unlikely event of you-know-what occurring. I can't bring myself to say it. I think also you and I and the rest of the team have strong opinions, even on things that we're not interested in. So I would make a point of telling people that I didn't like... I'm not a huge Taylor Swift fan, for example. No. And I don't really care about her wedding, but I have talked about it a lot.

20:31So I think that's probably the difference between us and that gentleman. We would just tell people that we didn't like sport and why we didn't like sport, whereas he just doesn't want to discuss it. And that's just something I can't relate to. Well, she does go on, Holly and Whitley Bay, to point out that Mark is a truly fantastic husband. None of this is a criticism, she says, although he has passed on the non-sporting gene to our two children as well. Holly says she is watching the brief World Cup highlights with her headphones in. May you continue to do so. Taylor Swift's wedding has, yeah, slightly...

21:00I'm not saying I've completely finished with the genius of Taylor Swift, but it was a bit too much, wasn't it? I felt it was an odd... I don't know her reasons for having it at Madison Square Garden. A lot of people said it was about privacy. What? Well, because you can't fly helicopters over. Oh, okay. But it felt to me that it allowed her... God, I really don't want to come on this podcast the first time and say bad things about Taylor Swift. But it felt to me that she was allowed some privacy. It's her wedding, so that's fine. But it still took over the whole of New York, essentially, and her guests did not get any kind of privacy.

21:38because they had to make their way to the venue. So I just thought it was kind of... It felt to me as if somebody who wanted privacy but also wanted it to be an event and wanted it to be talked about. You know, the BBC had a live page. Oh, God, I know. I did think... I did look at it. I might actually write a feedback about that. It just seemed extraordinary. Make a note of that. Use of license payers' money, if I'm honest. But you looked at it, so there you go. Yeah. Right. Lisa Jewell is our novelist guest today. We'll get to her in a moment. But on the subject of books, Paula says, I know that Fee and Eve were talking last week about a particular issue because a lady had emailed to say that her book club had been dominated by a new member.

22:23Do you remember this? This woman who held forth about her history knowledge at her much loved book club. Now, what I'm thinking, says Paula, is it does take all sorts. Some people are great in groups, pick the social cues up easily and get the culture without needing it explained to them. But some neurodivergent people don't and they aren't dominating on purpose. If they have existing close relationships, they can learn, but it doesn't always come naturally. And I think you're making some really good points here, Paula. So how about having a warm one-on-one conversation with her acknowledging her contribution but explaining that people come to a book club not always to get things right just for enjoyment and companionship she just might need the culture spelling out to her you could be doing her a huge favor and once toned down a bit or maybe toned down a lot she might relax and be an asset yeah i mean i think um it's absolutely right to recommend a warm one-on-one conversation with a don't leap in with your size 11s and be horribly judgmental and quite over assertive but these are not easy conversations to have necessarily are they no they're hard and you don't want to put the person off from well you don't want to make the person feel because group situations can be very hard for anyone even if you're not neurodivergent and yeah sometimes you know you can leave a group situation and think oh god did i say the wrong thing or was I overbearing?

23:53Oh God, I mean 100%. All of us suffer. I certainly suffer from social anxiety. I'll dread going out and feel really awkward about something I've said halfway through the evening and then find myself thinking about it three and four hours later in the middle of the night. And when you've had a drink, yeah, you should have seen Rosie's face there. It's one of the reasons to not drink. It's the feeling afterwards. It's that with knobs on. With horrible alcohol knobs on. And I tell you what, I'm not enjoying drinking in the heat anyway. So I had one glass of Pimm's at the tennis and knocked it on my head, Rosie.

24:26I'm on the non-alcoholic beer. No, so am I. It's delicious. I got in from work last night and had a bottle of Estrella with no alcohol. And it honestly does the business. I like the Asahi, 0%. Is that the Japanese one? Yeah. Yeah. How do you pronounce it? Asahi. Yeah, I don't ask for it because I don't know how to say it. Are you sure that's how you say it? I'm sure. But I'm also sure that you're saying Estrella wrong. Estrella. Estrella. Right, I'm moving on. Paula, thank you for that. I think you've made some interesting points there about what might be the right way to approach the slightly domineering lady at the book club.

25:04I keep saying lady when I mean woman. Do you get offended by the use of the term lady? I should stop it, really. I quite like it. Paula goes on to say, can I add a little bit of advice for parents with neurodivergent kids? Watch telly with them and talk about what's going on. programs like the simpsons modern family and brooklyn is it 99 or 99 it's brooklyn 99 is it thank you have some good values and provide lots of entertainment and lots of opportunities to say things like i wonder why she did that i wonder what that meant i wonder what'll happen next i wonder if it's someone else's turn to talk aren't they a good friend it also develops humor really well uh paula some excellent advice in that email thank you very much I did read, I think it might have been in the Sunday Times, that Little House on the Prairie has been rebooted by Netflix.

25:56Did you watch the original? No, I didn't watch it, but I read the books and I loved them. I loved the show, the TV show Little House on the Prairie. It was always on on Channel 4 when I was young on a Sunday. It was just a thing of beauty. It was so lovely. So do you know what? In this time of global trouble, I actually do think I might watch the Netflix Little House on the Prairie. Yeah, that's nice. Because why not? OK, well, there's a nice, cosy, harmless recommendation. I'm sure nobody can be offended by that. I should say that actually Margarita has emailed to say that she loved Robbie Millen.

26:26As for discussions on novella length versus a novel, the Mark Twain quote about letter writing is a good one. Here's a random fact that immediately came to mind. The Travelling Wilburys have a song that features the end line. It's sung by Tom Petty and it goes like this. he wrote a long letter on a short piece of paper. Do you get that? Yeah. Yeah. Kay is in New Zealand. She reminds us that the Travelling Wilburys were a super group. Do you remember who else was in that group? I think that you could win£10. There was George Harrison in the Travelling Wilburys. Yeah, it was. Was Eric Clapton in?

27:08No. No, because they had Falling Out. Oh, God. It was a showbiz Falling Out. That's it, I'm afraid, yeah. All right, well, it was Roy Orbison, Tom Petty, Bob Dylan. I was going to say Bob Dylan, but I just thought... I hope he didn't. I thought that he didn't seem like the kind of collegiate type. Well, I don't think he is. George Harrison, Jeff Lynne, VLO. I had a bit of a soft spot for VLO. I know a lot of people thought they were awful, but not quite like them. Good pop songs. Yes, and also some really bad ones. The Diary of Horace Wimp is not something I ever want to hear again. Right, let's bring in the fantastic novelist Lisa Jewell.

27:44Well, that was the plan. But as it turned out, the world of news had other things in store for us. So, executive producer Rosie and I are still here. We're tired now, aren't we? It's nearly ten past four in the afternoon. What happened, Rosie? What happened? Nigel Farage, I'm going to say this as succinctly as I can. Yeah. Nigel Farage has decided to resign as an MP. Yes. triggering a by-election that he has said in which he will stand as an MP. Yeah. And he has said that this is because the people of Clacton should decide. Yes. Well, that's it, more or less. That's it. That's kind of as far as...

28:24Yeah. Yeah, that's as much as people need to be kept in the loop. And those people who know, will already know, and those people listening outside the UK won't have a clue what we're talking about. But what this did mean was that our radio programme this afternoon was solid, rolling political reaction. And that meant we didn't have time to talk to the brilliant Lisa Jewel. Now, we are hoping to do it, aren't we? As soon as possible. Is that right? I think we're going to be speaking to her next week, but I will leave that up to young Eve. OK. In the meantime, I've also today interviewed the brilliant swimmer Mark Foster, who is the author of a very interesting book about his world of sport, a swimmer.

29:04Obviously, he's a swimming community. I can't speak anymore. I've done two hours of rolling politics and I've got nothing more to give, darling. Mark Foster has written a very interesting book about sport. And it's not often the case that books about sport are properly interesting. He was a very successful swimmer. He's gay and it's been tough for him in some respects. He's very, very interesting. And you'll hear that interview, which I did today on Thursday. And tomorrow's guest is Luke Jones, who's a man who can talk for Britain at any kind of sporting event. and he has got a very interesting new podcast which we'll talk about tomorrow.

29:38So sorry, this has been a mega ramble but I need to go home and have an alcohol-free lager and some peanuts. Eve is back tomorrow. Is she? Well, that's good news for everybody but you've been an absolute stalwart. Thanks, Rosie. Thank you. I'm not going to resign.

30:11Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

30:57Outdated technology isn't going to improve a disconnected healthcare system. So what will? At Optum, we wake up every day and work for better. We call it healthy optimism. It's how we use insights and technology to help providers focus less on paperwork and more on patients. Will we fix it all overnight? No. But we'll wake up trying again and again until healthcare works as one for everyone. That's healthy optimism. Learn more at Optum.com.