Battling with a secret rucksack fetish (with Claire Powell)

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1:58It's just such a lesson in mentality, isn't it? We're having an in-depth conversation here. Talking about that sport psychology. This is absolutely lovely. We're in a different studio today. I don't know whether it'll make a difference to our output, but we're in a much more newsy studio. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, Ron Burgundy. It's kind of butch. Very butch, but quite pleasant. Eve says don't worry if you sound tinny. Right, OK, she's back, as you may have gathered. She'd been to France. No sign of any gifts as yet. But I live in hope looking, no, it doesn't look very hopeful. I don't think that's happened.

2:38She was on a holiday where there was some organised fun. How are you with organised fun? Well, what do you think? I can't stand that sort of thing. You know, I do hear about it. I've got a friend who often goes on these, a little bit like Eve's trip, these very, very over-organised family fun occasions. where there's a timetable of events. I mean, just bog off. I bet they have a cup, especially in Grave Cup. Yeah, all that sort of thing. You know, we're going to play croquet at Hoppers 4, and then there'll be the super quiz. Oh, just no, no. No. Do you like organised fun? I don't like organised fun, Jane.

3:17No, it doesn't surprise me. But do you know what? I do have to dig deep when I find myself in places where there is organised fun, because people have just put so much effort into it. I feel so bad. I'm the grump in the corner going, I just want to read my Elizabeth Stroud by the pool. Would that be OK? That's my idea of a holiday. Yeah, but some people get so much from it, don't they? Well, they can go away with each other. Good for them, Jane, but no. I don't know what it is. For me, I've always thought it just reminds me a little bit too much of school. You know, the competing for things thing.

3:49I just genuinely don't want that in my leisure time, actually. Well, I would make the case that you cannot organise fun. That's a very good point to make. You just can't. That is a very good point to make. Which brings us on. To football. To the sad events. Well, we were just saying, actually, that we're both feeling quite relaxed today because all the hope is gone. And that's good. I slept really well last night. It was over, wasn't it? Yeah, it was well and truly over. So we were just saying, well, two things of merit in a sea of babble about football, which by the time you get to listen to this, you may have had enough, in which case I'd say fast forward about three minutes.

4:26But we talked to John Barnes, didn't we, on the programme? You did a fantastic interview with him before the World Cup started. And he said in his very John Barnes way. Yeah, he's quite, how would you describe him? Taciturn. Yes, taciturn. He's quite clipped in his responses. England legend, we should say. Very much so. Always worth hearing from. And he did tell us in that interview, and he was very, very honest about his prostate cancer. and I think a lot of people appreciated his honesty. But when he was asked, will England win the World Cup, what was it he said? He said, we're about the fourth or maybe the third best team in the world, so we won't.

4:59And what we will do is we will make it to maybe position number four or position number three if we're very lucky. And that's where we should be. Yeah, that's where we are. That's our standing. That's what's happened. And he was absolutely right. But you also said earlier that you think there's a problem with our, what is it? It's our arrogance, the English arrogance that somehow this game is ours. It belongs to us. And yeah, we have some divine right to win stuff. We don't. No, clearly we don't. So it hurts us. And I fully understand that other nations will have massive disappointment about not making it through.

5:39But I don't think it's the same kind of, it's been taken from us. A crime has been committed, a sporting crime, in the fact that we haven't won, which just leaves people with a really weird combination of pain and resentment. It's quite a toxic combination. Yeah. And as a person, you know, I'm not hugely sporting and I didn't grow up watching football either. So I'm outside of that tribal DNA feel. So actually what I want to get from sport doesn't end with that feeling, Jane. I don't want that feeling. I think there have been some positives over the last couple of weeks. I was going back home on the tube last night from work.

6:20I would say 10, 15 % of people on the train were in England shirts or England regalia. Women and men, very ethnically diverse, just as the team are, actually. And that is a massive change. And for me, it's a massive positive. That brand, the England brand, is not toxic anymore. Everyone is welcome. Everyone can dream of playing for England and representing England. And I think that's great. And it's lovely to see the pubs full of young people, kids in their 20s and slightly older. Again, really, really diverse, getting together to cheer England on. And that is something that I embrace. Yeah, I think you're right to point that out.

7:00So we shouldn't be too down about it. The last time that racism was really directed at the England squad after the bad penalties which took us out. Yes, that was the Euro. Oh, I don't know. The what's it of whenever the last Euro it was. Whatever it was that we didn't. 2024. Anyway, whatever it was. The backlash against it was one of the most heartening things, wasn't it? Yeah, because people just thought this is not us and we don't want this. Yeah, we're not in that camp. Really, really. So you bugger off. I hope that never, ever happens again. So look, and also I do object to this business, England don't win anything.

7:37The women have. We've got to keep saying that as well. So anyway, Euros for the chaps in a couple of years, the World Cup for the women, fingers crossed, next summer. You never know. Yeah. And who do you want to win the World Cup? And will you watch the game now? Oh, 100 % I'll watch the final. And of course I want Spain to win. Don't get me started on bloody Argentina. Well, they were nasty last night. They were slappy. They were very slappy. Nasty, niggly. Yuck. They were very pushy, shubby. No, don't like them. Don't want them to win. Come on, Spain. OK. Let's all have some... Actually, I won't have any carbon after last night.

8:13Let's all have, what's a Spanish non-alcoholic beverage? Water. Nice glass of water and some tapas. Come on, Spain. Okay. Are they chicken-shaped? Now, you're in trouble, Jane. You are in trouble. This one comes from Rachel. He says, oh, Jane, Fee, you can't let her off this easily. If she's going to try the schnitzel, she needs to have it in Austria or Germany to ensure she has the best. Surely the Times has a budget for this. You're sincerely someone who lived in Munich for a year and cannot bear to hear Jane compare a schnitzel to a chicken nugget. Well, pretty much. Despite this, I love you both so much.

8:52I can't imagine a Monday to Thursday without you. Carry on. Oh, OK. Well, there's everything there. Oh, by the way, don't you... Thank you for that. I knew it really wasn't chicken-shaped in the best restaurants. Although I think it would be nice. You get a nice bit of fillet steak in the shape of a cow. Would it put you off? no but it wouldn't draw me to it okay right um there was something really important i'm sorry i am a little bit hungover today i'm not perhaps i'm edging towards six out of ten fee okay do you want me to try and finish that train of thought it was something about a schnitzel shall we coat you in breadcrumbs and deep fry you see what happens that might be nice um let's move on to centelina which we mentioned last week when you were away yeah uh and this is an interview with Chatterbox Luke Jones, ace podcaster.

9:39And if anyone hasn't... Had somebody dropped out? He won't like that. He's very perky, is Luke? He's very perky, but he's in the building. I mean, that's interviewing our own. That's cannibalism. Yeah, it kind of is. It is seriously, it's a good podcast series that I'm called The Surgeon of St Helena. And Anne says, I was delighted to hear you talking about St Helena Island last week, because my mum is a saint. And if you are a native of St Helena, that's what you're called. You're called a saint. Honestly, actually, in fairness to Luke, it was not a part of the world I knew anything about. And it was riveting hearing about what went on.

10:16It's a British overseas territory. But the truth is that the islanders are treated with a degree of contempt by Britain. I think that's certainly what many of them feel. I have been to the island twice, Cezanne. Once before the airport and that was on the RMS St Helena and once flying in from Johannesburg. It is truly like nowhere else you have ever been. My mum became a teacher on the island at the age of 14 and her father was the butler at Plantation House in the 1940s. They live nearby and my mum fondly remembers taking rides on Jonathan the Tortoise back when he was just a young whippersnapper and says she really loves the pod thanks for everything well don't thank us and thank you for listening and for responding and jonathan the tortoise is still with us i mean that's incredible it is a bit weird because i think some people think it's a you know it's a fake it's not the real jonathan because i think jonathan is now 135 or something and every now and again a story pops up about jonathan having sex which i don't think anybody wants to hear well we've interviewed the vet who He looks after Jonathan, haven't we?

11:24Yeah, we did. On the programme. Yes, so he's still very much with us. As we should say, is Larry the cat, the Downing Street. You know my thoughts on that. Well, I know you think it's a fake Larry, don't you? Well, I think it's a replaced Larry. Well, I think Larry is due to welcome his, what is it, 19th Prime Minister here in the UK on Monday. And Andy Burnham is not going to move into Number 10 with his family, is he? He said right at the start that he would be going back to his home in Manchester every weekend. So Larry's going to be very lonely. He is. I think maybe we'll have a kind of rota.

11:59I've remembered what I was trying to say earlier. Oh, good. You've received a knitted object in the post. Oh, my goodness. Thank you for jogging my memory. Thank you enormously to the Isle of Wight branch of the Greyhound Trust. They had a tray sale of knitted greyhounds and they have sent me the brindle with the red collar rendition of what turns out to be Nancy. It wasn't knitted to look like Nancy, but that is absolutely what Nancy looks like and that's what Nancy wears. Right, lovely. And how is Nancy in the heat? Not good, not good at all. So I do worry about her. I worry about her every day because she's really, really beautiful, but she's incredibly thick.

12:40So she will go and lie in the sun. She just goes to lie in the sun and she's not very good at then working out where she needs to go in order to cool down. So I've left lots of little cool places around the house with different favourite blankets or beds in and she's got a daybed in the garden as well that she can get to. But no, I do worry. I think we all do about our pets, don't we? How's Dora? Well, actually, she elected to stay outside this morning when I came to work. We did have a bit of a Dora-related emergency earlier in the week when I got back from work. I just simply couldn't find her.

13:15I mean, she was nowhere. She wasn't in the garden. She was nowhere to be seen in the house. I did that thing where I tried to get her attention by shaking her dreamies. We've all done it. Still nothing happened. Shaky dreamies. Did it quite vigorously. I then called her name. And then I bawled her name and still nothing. And then about half an hour into this and it was becoming incredibly tense. I'd already composed a message for the family WhatsApp group to announce the departure of our much loved 40 quid from a rescue centre tabby. Sorry, she's gone. She's left. And went upstairs, opened my wardrobe and there asleep on top of a very infrequently used rucksack was the aforementioned moggy.

14:04God, was it the rucksack from the interrailing?

14:11It was like Antiques Roadshow might want to see that. It was equally ridiculous. I'm sure I might have mentioned this before. It was the rucksack I unaccountably bought for myself at the very beginning of Covid. I don't guess you're going to make a run for it where? Go to the hills. I don't know. I've never used it again. That doesn't surprise me. But I think maybe the hive could send in suggestions of where you could use the rucksack and how. So in the meantime, Dora just crept into the wardrobe. She'd just got to sleep in the wardrobe, but the door was shut. Boogie. And she'd been there for nine and a half hours, Fi, in temperatures that will not, I mean, they won't have been below 27 Celsius inside that wardrobe, I don't think, that day.

15:00It's just weird. Weird, but also... Do that. No, just a little, I mean, that is how an awful lot of them go, isn't it? I know. I know, she's only five, so it's her birthday next week. So what will you get her? The week after is, I don't remember. Oh, I don't know. What do you usually get her? Well, what usually happens is we all forget. I think that's very, very possible. Now, you have been sent a knitted Nancy, and I just wanted to say there'll be people of my age who remember with some fondness, the knitting Nancy. Did you have one of those? Oh, now, I do remember. So that's where the... It's a pencil, a chunky pencil-shaped lady.

15:36The yarn comes through almost like her giblets. And you can turn it into something. A really weird concept. Very odd. Very, very odd. Kids, before social media, that's how we wild away our childhoods. But what did it actually make? Because it did make something. Just made... A sort of bit of, if you were lucky, a little bit... Twine. A bit of twine came out of the bum of the Nancy doll. I mean, it was just very, very strange indeed. Very strange. Can I have a very quick moan, please, just to see whether or not anybody else wants to join in on this moan? I left something on board an Austrian Airlines plane that I need to get back.

16:17It's not an object of value, but it's a wash bag that had some really sentimental jewellery in it. So I wanted to pursue it and to cut what could be such an interminably boring long story short. you have to get in touch with Heathrow lost property if you're flying into Heathrow. When you get in touch with Heathrow lost property, what you now do in this great glorious world of AI is you go onto a search engine part of the website and you type in what you've lost and you type in the date and then up comes every single thing that has that word in the title and you can click through and look at it.

17:04So about 10 ,000 items. An image of it? No, a description of it, Jane. Right. Which strikes me as one of the most infuriating and really numbskull ways of dealing with something that A, is always going to be emotional, B, needs eyes on it, and C, it's just part of the deal, isn't it? when you travel, if you lose something, you should be able to expect it to be kept safe and you can get it back. So I now face the task of trying to track down through thousands of items, a yellow wash bag. I mean, there's no other way that I can describe it. And also if the person who's logged it isn't also describing it as a yellow wash bag, I'm never going to find it, am I?

17:54No, you are reliant on those words being used by both ends of this conversation. Yes. Isn't that just ridiculous? And it's just a description then. So I looked at about 20 of these descriptions this morning. Quite a lot of rucksacks in there. If you've actually got a secret rucksack fetish. If it was the start of something. Straps. Look at me. I'm off on manoeuvres. I'm going to use that bloody rucksack this weekend. Well, if anybody needs a rucksack, just log on and say you've lost one. And you'll be able to pick it up at Heathrow. Honestly, it just made me so mad. And I don't know whether anybody else has had success with that system, actually.

18:33And maybe there's something that I'm missing about it. Maybe there is a clever way of describing it or narrowing it down or something. It also says you can put in your date when you lost it, but it might take up to seven days for somebody to log it. So you've got to go through seven days. Well, is it realistic to expect to get it back? I know you want to, but is it completely unrealistic to honestly imagine that it will come back to you? I am pretty sure, I mean, having done a not inconsiderable amount of traveling in my life and having left several things on planes before, what you used to do was you said which plane it was when it arrived, the number.

19:10And it was kept in, you know, everyone kept it in different places. It didn't go into one great big hall where AI then dealt with it. So, yes, you did get things back. I left my glasses on a train about two years ago. And actually, you know when you get a really good pair of glasses, you really like them. And they weren't cheap because they never are very focals. And they're better and more comforting than a man. Well, and more portable. And less likely to let you down. Although it doesn't help if you lose them, which is what I did. I never got them. I mean, I filled in the form. I mean, I don't know what I was hoping for, really.

19:48But you would think after, but then again, we're asking too much of these services. Isn't they really going to have just a giant compartment for well-loved, very vocals? But you used to be able to go to Paddington, didn't you, and go to their lost loved ones department, their whole department. They were so helpful. We lost a very favourite doll on a train. They were absolutely brilliant. Did you get it back? Yes. Name of doll? Oh, God, I can't remember, actually. It might have been Trisha. I can't remember. Trisha? Okay. we had some very strange dolls names right just a quick one uh we have been contacted by um a company who'd like us to exhibit at gulf food 2027 which is an international trade exhibition for the food and beverage industry where is it jay it's in the uae um the event provides an opportunity to connect with buyers distributors and retailers if you'd like to exhibit just reply to the email well um i don't know what we could exhibit i think we could do some nice sweet and savory slacks we'll get back onto schnitzel thank you very much for the email uh basem is the person who's been in i think you've probably got the wrong address but look um i'm on board i love all those things that come into the email some of them are just so inappropriate for us and then there are people who tell us what we could do with the podcast They come from marketing departments.

21:16They tell us. What do they think we could do with it? Well, they think that with their help, we can reach millions and millions and squillions of people. It's the last thing we want to do. We don't want to do that, no. We've got a quality audience. We're very happy with that lot. Oh, now, Glyn, we were a little bit concerned about Glyn because we hadn't heard from him for a couple of days. Do you have Glyn's email to him? I have. And I hope it's of some comfort to Glyn that you had actually said to me today. Was it yesterday? Is Glyn all right? Is Glyn all right? Yeah. So, Glyn, thank you for, well, just reassuring us.

21:49Yesterday's discussion on dangerous trousers. Oh, by the way, Amanda Wakeley did make us both laugh yesterday. You've just got to repeat. And in case you haven't heard yesterday's podcast, which was an interview at the end there with the fashion designer, Amanda Wakeley. Just, you know, just big yourself up. What was the funny question you asked at the end? No, it's because you asked a great question at the beginning about the style DNA is her thing. So she's got a podcast and her book is called Style DNA. And you asked her a question to which the answer was, it's important because people make up their mind about you within the first 30 seconds of seeing you.

22:26So you've got to be sending out a message that you're really happy with about your own unique style DNA. so I just asked her at the end what she had thought of both of us within 30 seconds of meeting us based on our style DNA Yes and unfortunately Amanda decided to be very honest but it was the way she said it she was very charming really She paused and then what did she say Jane? She took a breath and then she said you both look very comfortable and we went with that so Amanda many thanks Amanda Wakeley, she is so, so good at what she does. Style DNA is the name of her. It's all a long way from Glyn.

23:11Now, earlier in the week, we had had this discussion about dangerous trousers. These are these very flappy truths that are quite fashionable particularly in the hotter weather. Glyn says trousers are always dangerous. Buffering a bit there, love. That reminds me, my daughter couldn't settle at the pub where she got the table last night because the screen kept buffering. No. Can you imagine? No. I know. A pub that I'd advertised, come and watch the match here, they couldn't get the screen to work. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Do you know what? We were watching in a domestic setting. Yes. But we had the doors thrown open and we were about a minute behind and the roar for the England goal.

23:53It was right across London, Jane. It was extraordinary. We're not very far from the Emirates Stadium Sometimes the wind is blowing and it's a massive match. You catch a little bit of a waft of this, but I'd never heard anything like that as London celebrated. It was quite tingles, actually. Well, you're making me sad again now because it was. I was at a friend's flat and she lives very close to a pub where they were showing it. And I'm a bit boggled by this and I know there is an explanation. So, yes, we heard the roar from the pub, which was really genuinely lovely. People were just so delighted in that moment.

24:28it's hard to talk about it but look they were really happy in that moment and then 40 seconds later we saw the goal so that's because the pub is watching not on the iPlayer but watching on a straight streaming live because they've paid for it haven't they I don't know yes so yes yes I think you do don't you if you're showing a game to more than 20 people in a public setting yeah charge money for it, you're buying a different director TV thingy. Are you? Okay. There's a technical term that often uses in the business. I think we need a man involved here to explain exactly what was going on last night.

25:09But it was, as I've already said, about 19 times now. Really lovely to hear that cheer. Come on, Glyn will cheer us on. Right. Trousers are always dangerous. I'm reminded of this every summer on the couple of days that it's hot enough for me to get my legs out and wear shorts. Now it's then that I notice that when using a urinal there is a very fine splashback of urine from the urinal onto the thigh stroke knee area of my legs. It's a fine aerosol of urine, not enough to see but it can definitely be felt on the skin. This isn't really surprising as a liquid is being squirted at a smooth, hard surface a couple of inches away, but I never notice it normally because I'm fully trousered.

25:55The trouser basically acting as a piss sponge.

26:01Thank you, Clint. Worried that it might just be a quirk of my waterworks. I have mentioned this to male friends and they all agree that it is a thing, but I've never heard it referenced widely. You've done it now and I'm sure most women are in total ignorance of the phenomenon. Not anymore, Glenn. No, but can I ask a subsequent question, please, Glenn? So when you're not wearing shorts, why isn't that showing up more on the male trouser? Well, because, as he says, it's a very fine aerosol of urine. There isn't much to it. But he does go on to add this important final paragraph. Next time you're wondering whether a son or a partner's jeans, trackies or trousers really need a wash, the answer is always yes.

26:48Yeah, I think that's worth remembering. And maybe keep your hands well away from the thigh and knee area of a gentleman's leg, which is probably good advice for life generally. Yeah, very much so. Glyn, thank you. We're just glad that you're still there. And we really appreciate, I was going to say, his input. But you know what I mean. I know what you mean. But I mean, his point that there is something, the whole workings of a urinal, obviously we're not regular users. It's just a bit odd, isn't it? I think it's very strange. And I don't know, are they still, if you're building a new building and, you know, new library or something like that, are you still building lots of urinals?

27:31I wouldn't. Wouldn't you be happier, men, in a booth? A stall. A stall. I would imagine that you would. And it's just so strange, isn't it, that men have, It's always been assumed that it's absolutely fine for them to all urinate publicly and women have always needed privacy. It's very strange. The whole thing is fascinating and possibly something we could do one of our Friday special episodes on. Somebody would have written the history of the urinal. What always amazed me, and like you, I'm not a very frequent user of the urinal area, But sometimes if needs must, if I've been at an event, then I have just strode in and headed for a store.

28:16Because it's just so annoying. You know, you just don't want to embarrass yourself in a lady's queue just because toilet equality hasn't caught up with you. And I just don't understand that blue. I still never understand the little blue cake thing that's down at the bottom. Because that's not going to... The blue cake. Oh, there's a blue cake of disinfectant quite often just chucked in at the bottom of a urinal. there. Yes, and we don't have a little blue cake chucked in at the bottom of our toilets do we? No, not usually. And it's not because they need something to aim at. Well. Which they do when they're learning.

28:51They don't afterwards. So why is that still there? Why wouldn't you just have a spray that sprays everything? Yeah, you'd think. Well, I mean it's an area for debate. Yeah, well not too much. Don't spend the whole weekend thinking about this. No. Can I bring in a conversation which has been amplified by Fiona, who was interested to hear about living near my great grandma's street without knowing it? And we may have hit upon something. And this is what Fiona wants all of us to talk about. As a youngster in the late 1970s, I moved from the far north to London. She says you could do that then. Cheapish rents and cheaper beer.

29:32my sister and two cousins all did the same around a similar time we lived separately in different places in south london for a few years and eventually moved back north 30 years later i did the family tree and imagine my surprise when i realized all four of us had each lived two or three streets away from where our great-grandmother had also lived she was gloriously named fanny botting fanny botting a practice which i think is slightly out of fashion these days Yes. Yes? I don't believe you said that.

30:12But anyway, it's one of those names. You don't hear it these days, do you? No, you don't. I mean, if you were called Bossy, would you call your daughter Fanny? Probably not. No, I don't think so. Neither of us are known to work with a Fanny.

30:33Fanny Garvey would just be high comedy and a Fanny Glover. No, no. Come on, let's just pull ourselves together. I can't. By the way, we just need to say it's still hot in London. This has been how many, is this the third week now? Yes, it is. No wonder we're at a wits end. And there's no rain coming for another two weeks. I mean, I have to say, if you are part of the farming community, I really do feel for you at the moment. This must be really, really tough. Really, really tough. Yeah, good point. Right, thank you. You brought me back down to all that. That was very good. I went on a course about that one.

31:09Agricultural detail. We're back with Fiona. She had moved around South London. Throughout her life, Wandsworth, Kennington, Streatham and Tooting, places where we had also unknowingly moved to. Is it in the muscle memory? Has anybody studied it as a phenomena? Time for a PhD, perhaps. I open it to the hive. And do you know what? I bet people do have what they might think of as a coincidence like that in their locker. And I know that you laugh at Bromley and all of that kind of stuff. But it's weird how sometimes you turn up in a place and you have an affinity for it that is inexplicable. I'm sorry to answer you.

31:51No, I just keep thinking. I go into Little in East West Kensington. Have I been here before? And the answer is yes, I have. But that's different. OK, right. Have you never been somewhere in the world and you've pitched up and you thought, I just feel something about it. Not I feel that I've been here before, but I feel drawn to it and I don't know why. I think I'm honestly not as dismissive of that sort of thing as I might have been in the past. I was talking to a friend over the weekend actually who says that since her mum died she has taken comfort in things like the appearance of birds and things like that.

32:30And these things do really resonate with people don't they? I know some people believe that if you see a feather it might be of some significance or a little bird that seems to be omnipresent in your garden never used to be there sits on your chair. These things are hugely significant to people and I think you dismiss them at your peril. Yeah, I agree. So there might very well be something in the idea that, yeah, you're, I don't know, something in the memory of your DNA is bringing you to a place that people have been to before. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. No, it is. It's so, it's so weird. I mean, I had absolutely no connection to Dalston.

33:07I'd never even been to Dalston when I went to look at a tiny rail women's cottage in Dalston. And the moment I got off at the train station, I just thought I just really like this place. You know, I like everything about it. You know, even though there was a lot to not like about some parts of it. So, you know, it was weird. I was very, very, very drawn to it. And it was literally 100 yards away from where Granny Grace's family had lived. So, so strange. We need to make clear that it wasn't the rail women who was telling you. They must have been quite short. Well, actually, that's true. Do you know what?

33:44It's unfair to call it a tiny rare woman's cottage. That's how the Daily Mail described it. And I was very annoyed. Because I thought for me, actually, it was quite a substantial property achievement. They called it a small rare woman's cottage and I've repeated it, Jane. Well, that's how it read. They are so appalling, aren't they? Because you've got to bear in mind that the house will be big because you're small. Well, yes, all right. But it's quite big anyway. Yeah, OK, sorry, it was big. Right. Such a cheek. We'll bring in a guest in a moment. You'll be relieved to hear. But this is also about coincidences.

34:20This is Melanie, who's in Somerset. By the way, Burnham on Sea is in Somerset. Now, Andy Burnham is the new prime minister, comes in on Monday. And I'm already braced for the first headline when he gets into a bit of a stew. Something goes wrong. And the headline will be Burnham at Sea. Oh, that's very good, Shane. Yeah, that's very good. I'm prepared to give that to any of the tabloids if they're looking to berate him, as they surely will be looking to berate him. By next Wednesday. By Tuesday afternoon. Hearing Fee's London House coincidence, how about this? My eBay shop sells vintage Vogue magazines.

35:00I live in a Somerset village and went to the post office in the small close-by town... Oh, I can't say this. do you know this place Vivilliscum no sounds French doesn't it Vivilliscum how is it pronounced W I V E L I S C O M B E no I'm sorry I can't help you are you spelling that wrong Melanie it sounds almost French in a way I passed over my Vogue parcels one of which was to an address in London the postmaster looked closely at the address and told me he'd sold that house not that long ago. It was a member of his family who died and he dealt with the sale. What are the chances? Millions to one, surely.

35:49That's why I still buy a lottery ticket every week. Melanie, who has in the past contacted us about her rather vanilla local town of Taunton. That was troublesome, wasn't it? Yeah, that got her into a spot of bother, but she's now focusing on coincidences instead, which I think will probably be no bad thing and i did find that is i mean i know that well coincidences are all but they happen every day i can't say the word i'm sounding still a bit drunk which is unfortunate um i can't say the word but coincidences happen every day in all kinds of circumstances and they are curiously i don't know they're quite affecting sometimes they quite shake you well they are but whenever they appear in crime fiction they're always dismissed aren't they there's no such things a coincidence in a police procedure.

36:38It's always something that's going to start tugging on the thread that leads to the denouement of discovery. Well, now that the football's over... Back to Vera. Back to my old... I think I might dive into the second series of The Pit. Although I'm just about over the first series now, so I think I probably can do battle with series two. Okay. Is it a bit too gory to watch or do you get used to the gore? Or do you have to look away? It's so good that it just becomes part of the involvement of the whole thing. OK. Because I did have to switch it off after 10 minutes because... Oh, OK. No, give it another try because the characters are amazing.

37:18There was a loose foot. Yeah, there is a bit of that.

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39:14Okay, right. Let's bring in our guest today, novelist Claire Powell. Those of you with long memories might well recall that Claire is on the podcast because I'd forgotten about her book At The Table. Oh, let's just bring her in. Now, Claire Powell is here, author of a book called At The Table. It was named one of the best books of the year by The Times and The Sunday Times in 2022. And you have a new novel out now. This is called All In. It is set on a family weekend away in the Med. Now, this is a holiday and you just need to set it up. It's a holiday paid for by a seemingly successful man called Ted.

39:52But also on the holiday are his partner, Kayla, the dad, that's the dad of Ted, and also the dad of Ted's brother, Dave, and sister-in-law, Joe, is on the trip as well. Is that right? Yes, and well done. You did that really well. Because I always, if somebody asks me to explain it, I'm getting myself in a real muddle over. Who's who? I know who's who. You wrote it. It's saying whose is the dad. It's a couple and he's going with his brother, but also the boy's dad. It's a mouthful. Right. But you got it right. OK, thank you very much. Well, it's a great book. I should say as well, and obviously it doesn't help because we're on radio, but the cover is absolutely brilliant.

40:34And it's a kind of, not Andy Warhol, who is the... Hockney. Hockney, yeah. David Hockney. Hockney-esque. That's entirely intentional. Yeah, well, I didn't design it. there was a designer who designed it. I can't remember what her name is. She'll be on the cover. There we go. Let me get it. Jacket image, Logan Zilmer, Trevelyan images. Oh, yes. So that's who the, that was the illustrator. And obviously there was a designer who. Design and Amy Smithson. Yes, Amy Smithson. And I think it's actually like, it's kind of like a collage. He did a sort of, there's sort of little photos of, but I love the cover.

41:10I think it's perfect for the book. Yeah, it's a man in sort of standing nervously next to a woman on a sun lounger who's in a bikini and it looks i don't there's something mournful yeah and just a bit tragic about their there is their posture anyway we've all been there we've all had great holidays and we've all had holidays uh particularly particularly with family so um the dynamic here is that the the central couple this is uh joe and dave are they're together they're still together but they have been through a really tough time because they've been having IVF. Now, I guess that is something you wouldn't write about unless you've been through it yourself.

41:48Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, good on anyone who wants to. Who wants to have a try. Who wants to have a try. But yeah, it was definitely something that I went through myself and so wanted to put that into it, that kind of the experiences that I had or the feelings that I had, I suppose, and the years. Yeah, well, Jo in the book describes IVF and the IVF journey as, she calls it dull suffering. And I mean, it's a great phrase. And for those of us who haven't been through it, that does give us a window into that world, I think. Just tell me a bit more about it. Yeah, I think you, IVF can sort of, it goes over a certain amount of time.

42:29And also there's a really long lead up to it. and so it's I mean it's it's not like a holiday I was gonna say it's almost like a holiday in that you sort of you got your tickets and here's your thing and you've got to get to the airport at this time and that's the day when you're going to get your eggs collected and there's all these things that have that go into it and that's only you know one if you're lucky to do one round if you're lucky to get the eggs you know to make embryos um there's a lot a lot of hurdles and it all can become I suppose the dullness of it is it just wears you down it can really wear you down it sounds absolutely exhausting it's also physically invasive for the woman involved and you're are you living essentially between appointments is that how it feels yeah you're definitely you're living between appointments you're always in a waiting to find out um what what a result will be you're going and you're getting um your follicles are getting measured so you're constantly sort of getting results and you don't really know what those results might mean and so you're waiting for a doctor to tell you what those results mean what can i can i can i progress to the next step can you progress to the next step you're always waiting to see if you can progress to the next step with the final step obviously being a pregnancy test that not everyone will get to that point because lots of things can go wrong even before that bit so yeah it can take a long time basically it can be a very drawn out process that's yeah not easy and certainly I think for you as a person and indeed for the characters in the book whilst the person having IVF is going through that particular experience the world around them appears to be full inhabited almost entirely by couples who can just get pregnant without making any effort at all yeah what is that like is there a word for it where you you're going through something yourself and so then you start noticing it everywhere you know isn't there a word for that it's like a sort of it feels like a sort of coincidence but suddenly if you want a baby then all you can see when you're walking down the street is pregnant women women with prams you know that's it just suddenly it it heightens everything that you're noticing um and also obviously lots of women are having it in a time frame that we all are having it around the same time so therefore um friends are family members are because unless you're lucky enough to have a really diverse age group of friends where you've got some friends in your 50s and some friends in your early 20s you're probably you know most women around the age of between i'm going to say the 30s basically you're in the thick of it of people having babies not having babies wanting to have babies not wanting to have babies perhaps but you know and can i ask if you tried to go on holiday yourself during ivf because when you are going through something like that the idea of taking a holiday is often completely different to the reality of taking a holiday because you can't take a holiday from your head no absolutely and we did we did we did a couple of holidays we did we went to Devon and then we did uh Mallorca but I did it at the end of a cycle so I think it was after um oh I mean I Devon I feel like was booked when we didn't know what the outcome would be and actually I think that's a really one of the things that you can do is put your life on hold when you're going through IVF because you don't know and you're constantly going well I could be pregnant by then so I don't want to put the holiday because I might so I might be pregnant then I'm not gonna be able to go and drink I'm not gonna and I think that's a bad idea I think the good idea is to um have things that you can always look forward to and then if you're pregnant great yeah if you're not like i wasn't then you could still go and hopefully you can have a good time in fact that year it was 2022 and the euros were on right let's not talk about sorry sorry sorry we've done that been there can't bear it anymore i really can't um we should say that actually you i mean i know you're all right for me to say this you have had a child um and i just wonder whether it would have been possible to write a book like this which is really poignant if you hadn't had a child actually I was thinking about that I don't know yeah I mean god I I would be a different person had I not had a child I don't know where my head would be at I don't know what where my life would be what we have what we would have decided to do um so I couldn't say what what book I would have written I hope that I would have still written about IVF but certainly for me this book probably was a sort of I wanted to write a like a positive what if I wanted to it sort of for my former self of being like what if it what if it didn't happen but it could still be okay but also I'm writing about the point when it's not quite okay yet you know I haven't jumped into the future of going and it's fine we're happy we've come to terms with it we're living a great life actually they're at the real crux of going Joe is sort of come to terms with it but are her and Dave going to be okay?

47:28Yeah, well, I think that's really interesting because it's clear that Dave, he does want, he wants a baby every bit as much as she does. And sometimes we overlook the suffering of men in these situations. I do think it was, it's one of the best aspects of what is a really great book, I should say, that his experience is acknowledged properly. Yeah, I really wanted to write Dave's perspective because, like you say, I feel like I have read now quite a lot of women's perspectives of it. I've also spoken to other friends. But I haven't heard about it much from a man's point of view. And I know from going through it myself and having a partner, and, you know, he would say, you know, Dave's not me, that's not how I felt.

48:11But I thought it was, yeah, an interesting opposition to hers and to look at that at the same time. And just a brief mention of, I mean, you described that situation where your peer group, they are basically at that time in your life, they do tend to be around your age. They're going through very similar experiences. And what are you supposed to do when somebody announces a pregnancy? And I mean, I think people wrestle with that, don't they? Yeah. So I personally would say now, if you knew, if you know that a friend is going through some sort of fertility treatment, I would say send them a message.

48:50Because I think if they, a friend did this, did this for me, she sent me a message and then I could receive it in my own and kind of have my instinctive reaction, which was, you know. And then I was able to go, OK, and now I can send her a really lovely message. but it wasn't that sort of face-to-face, someone telling you and you thinking, because at the moment there's this very strange thing where it doesn't make sense, but you think that every time someone tells you they're having a baby that it almost diminishes your chance, that it's taken away a bit of your chance of having a baby, which makes no sense.

49:25But none of it makes any sense. None of it makes no sense. It's all irrational, yeah. Well, I don't think anyone's ever more irrational than when they've experienced baby loss or they're desperate to get pregnant. It's just a really rubbish time. Sorry, Fee. No, I was going to completely agree with that. And actually, I just wanted to ask you a bit more about the male perspective, because we know that men don't tend to read as many female authors as women who read male authors. And of course, to know that there's a male experience in your book is a really important thing. I mean, is there anything that a publisher kind of notes about the content of a book that might mean in this glorious world of algorithms and SEO and all that kind of stuff, you could get it in front of more men to whom it would be hugely relevant.

50:11Yeah. Oh, God. What do I don't think I don't know. I don't really know what publishers do to help it get in men's hands. I'm not sure that that's a to be honest, because men don't buy much fiction. I think they're kind of low down in the priority of who they are focusing on. Yeah, it's a shame. That is a shame. Because people aren't going to write about the male experience if they feel that it's not going to help. I think that's why cover's important. And I did say I really want to be careful not to do a sort of very... Pinky one. Female, pinky, beach-ready cover because I wouldn't want to put off...

50:51I don't want it to look like it's just women on holiday. Yeah, women on holiday. Women on holiday. Women on holiday has a little bit of a romance. and good luck to her. There is another really interesting male character in it, Teddy, the older brother. Now, he is superficially, he's got everything in life sorted, but it's not that simple, is it, mercifully? No, and even superficially, has he got everything sorted? I mean, he's, yeah, he, Teddy is very wealthy and he's very successful and he seems happy, but we soon realise that there are things that he wants. I mean, what he doesn't have is a relationship and you might think that he doesn't even want a relationship but that kind of comes out in the...

51:36Yeah, he's actually... Well, we don't need to reveal it, but he does have a partner on the holiday but she perhaps is not quite as invested as he might have hoped. And it's true that no good deed goes unpunished. That's the expression, isn't it? And he's paying for this trip, Teddy, which puts everybody else on it, just on the back foot a bit. It is a bit awkward, isn't it, when someone extends generosity to you because it's quite difficult to know how to behave. Yeah, exactly. And there is, there's a, it's a transaction really because by Teddy paying for the holiday, everybody else feels in debt to him.

52:12And like now we need to be on our best behaviour or the behaviour that Teddy expects of us, which in Teddy, because Teddy's a sort of, you know, blokey, all right, let's get the drinks in. It's everyone have a great time. Everyone look like you're having a great time. Yeah, I mean, he wants to drink at the airport on the way out, which, I mean, my children sometimes do that when they go away and I just can't bear it. I just honestly, Fia and I agree on this. You never want to drink before you get on a plane, would you? I think it's so unwise. It's one of those things that I do not understand how it's been allowed to develop into such a thing that people want to be really drunk before they get on a plane, a place which is unfamiliar and always has a cue for a very small toilet.

52:51Claire, what's going on? Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, I quite like a drink on the plane. Oh, no. Don't come away with us. I'm not sitting anywhere near you. Not at Wetherspoons before, but I would have a, if I was flying in the afternoon, I would like a glass of wine because it makes me feel like I'm going on holiday. Yeah, so I just about see what you mean. I just go to Cret and get a, Cret, Cret, what do I call it? God, I'm having a bad day today. I just get a bigger, bigger than averagely filled baguette and that's my way of just getting... Celebrating. celebrating and it is her way of celebrating yeah it really is um something else you write about which i think it's so much a part of modern life but not acknowledged as much as it should be in contemporary fiction is the phone uh because we've got to we've got to admit how much we use these ruddy things they're permanently in our hands and if they're not in our hands we we want to know where that where the phone is and we miss it when it's gone and we look forward to being reunited with it and you actually mention it but did you I mean were you aware that you were mentioning it oh yeah I mean I kind of felt like I couldn't not mention it but it is does curiously go unreferenced in a lot of books yeah uh I mean I'm I'm writing a new one now and I'm worried that I'm talking about it too much in the kind of a this is a text message and but but that is how we live now we do live so much you know communication we communicate so much in text and or even email a bit but um yeah i i mean the the the phone plays a sort of plot it has a plot point in the novel but also that's kind of um but yeah the phone is important yeah um sorry Natalie has texted in to say that she's just back from holidays has read the book and it was the perfect holiday read and she is starting a campaign to have a sequel to it yeah absolutely thank you so much well i'm not going to mention the end of the book but there are you leave us hanging a little bit yeah uh so they are worth revisiting joe and dave aren't they yeah i guess so i mean if if i i might need a bit of a break from them but i could i could return to them perhaps well you're being a bit coy very happy i think she already has returned to them quite possibly yeah okay um so that your first book at the table was about it was about a series of gatherings involving food wasn't it um tell us a bit about that for anyone who wants to read your body of work claire tell us about at the table um at the table is about the maguire family parents and their two children who are in their 30s and the novel opens with the parents who have been seemingly happily married for many many years announcing their divorce and that they are kind of fine with it they've talked it through and the rest of the novel is about the sort of um ramifications of that news on the children's lives uh and each chapter um follows one of the characters and is based around some sort of food or drink yeah i mean it's an incredibly effective way of telling uh well i was going to say an insignificant story but there's significance in every insignificant encounter with family, isn't there?

56:04Whether we like it or not. I mean, family, I feel like family is the only thing that I ever want to write about because there's so much there. We can, you know, everything is your family, really. Whether you see them or you don't see them, there's so much, I guess, to do with psychology that relates to your family. Well, do your family read your works? And what are their observations? I think they all, I mean, yeah, they all love it. Well, they say they do. Yes, what they say by my back, that's true. What's the WhatsApp group that I'm not in? Yeah. Yeah, I think that what they like at the moment is they can recognise probably aspects, but there is enough of it.

56:47I don't write autofiction. They're not going, oh, my God, that's me, you know. So I think there's enough of a distance for it to not feel uncomfortable. Okay. and could this be filmed? Yes, if anybody else would like to. I think there's, looking at the kind of fare that is sent our way over the summer months, often filmed in the depths of winter where the cast are shivering in seaside locations and they're actually, it's only 11 Celsius. I think All In would be perfect for that. I do too. Okay, she's available folks. Get in there please. Claire Powell, All In is out now and honestly, if you're looking for a superior a summer holiday read that is your novel excellent recommendation we we need many many many of those don't we yeah we return next week thank you for bearing with us uh quite clearly jane is still drunk so we'll go upstairs and we'll try and sober up what's the problem eve can i not say that is it explicit lyrics what oh we've got a friday app of the yoga prisoner okay so we join you again And tomorrow for a bonus Friday edition.

57:55And I'll tell you all about that. Well, I'm actually going to tell you about it now, but you won't hear what I tell you about it now because this will be the end of this podcast. This isn't helping. We'll start the podcast tomorrow. Goodbye. Bye-bye.

58:22Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio, the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case so you can get the radio online on dab or on the free times radio app off air is produced by eve salisbury and the executive producer is rosie cutler

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