Come On, England! (delicately) (with Mark Foster)

0:01Hi.

0:08Jane, what is awful? Ah, do you know what? This is welcome to Off Air with Joan and Fi with no Fi, but she's back on Monday. And I can't wait actually to find out what's happened in that retreat she's been at in Austria. Because she did send us a picture yesterday, didn't she? She did. It looked absolutely beautiful. Looked dead serene. Yeah, it did really. Actually, it looked fake. fake no it didn't look fake it looked very high class well yeah it was the bluest water i've ever seen yeah mountains in the backdrop and then a little gaggle of did you say gaggle i don't know a squad of ducks yeah on a grassy riverbank yes exactly which um all of which sounds idyllic frankly um anyway the generational conversation continues uh i was going to say multi-generational I think it's just bi-generational conversation between young Eve and myself continues.

0:58The question, what is awful, can be answered, well, its intestines. Sounds awful. Bloody awful. And the reason that had cropped up as you joined us was that Les Snowden, who's a great sports journalist, and Les has been touring the States and Mexico and Canada for Times Radio, covering the World Cup. and it's been really interesting talking to him because he's been at some of the games but actually he's mostly been watching them in bars with fans from all over the world. He's been on Greyhound buses, he's been on trains. It's been a real insight in what it's like to go as a fan to America. And we've been setting him food challenges and I have asked him, Les that is, to eat offal because Erling Haaland who is Norway's star striker and plays in this country for Manchester City, eats a lot of offal.

1:53Now, Erling Haaland is a brilliant player. He's very tall. He's enormous. He's very strong. And he does eat a lot of things like heart. I heard he eats 6 ,000 calories a day. 6 ,000 calories a day. He eats lots of liver. I know. But the thing is... Is this, like, really protein-rich? Well, I think it is. And it's really... I mean, Les, I should say, went out to a restaurant last night in... I think he's in Boston at the moment. So you forced poor Les to eat intestine for your own entertainment. He sent us a clip and he says that he's enjoying it. He ordered hot pepper with pork intestine. Now, the use of the word intestine there, it doesn't, I don't know, it's not very inviting, is it?

2:34But I will say that in my adolescence, we used to eat a lot of liver. It was on school dinner menus. I mean, I'm sure it doesn't appear now. Something's gone a bit different there to the effect it had on Erling Hawn. I didn't grow to be six foot eight, nor do I play up front in the Premier League. I don't know what went wrong. Something did. But I did used to, I mean, it feels terrible now, but I used to like liver. And it was good. It's so cheap. It's still available. You can buy it in the supermarket now. And honestly, it costs almost nothing. And cooked up a bit of onion. It's actually genuinely delicious.

3:11Did you know what you were eating? I think, yes, I did. You did. And it has a very distinctive taste. Anyway, if anyone wants to chip in the awful, chip into the awful conversation, don't do any more bloody awful puns, but are people still eating liver and onions? I mean, I should be eating it because, as I say, it's incredibly economical and really tasty, but I don't think I'd get it past my pescatarian current housemate. Which animal? Well, lamb, sheep. It doesn't matter. Pork. Too much. I think you can have pig liver. Yeah, you can. Yeah. Yes, I know. Cows liver. I'm in the pesky camp. Yeah, I think I can understand where you might be.

3:53Right. Just a quick shout out to Rachel. She's a regular correspondent with the Ab Fab Mother. We're currently listening to you working our way around the Scottish Highlands in a camper van. It's a really good job we like each other as it's quite a small space for 12 days for us and our 25 kilogram Springer Spaniel. I bet that springer spaniel wouldn't say no to a bit of offal. Rachel, just let us know when you're back safe and sound. I'd love to know whereabouts in the Highlands you've been and what was your favourite place because I am so ignorant about that part of Scotland. I'd love to see it.

4:27And what's the weather like? Because if it's as hot as here, how on earth are you all managing it? It's not going to be as hot as here, is it? Well, fair enough. But if it is hot, that's still quite a lot of people in a small space sleeping at night. That's a lot of dog in a small space. It's an ungodly 36 Celsius in London today. which, well, how can I put it? Things were definitely stoking up on the Jubilee line this morning at 10 o 'clock. So what they're going to be like when I go home, I just can't imagine. Do you feel for me? My God, I do, Jane. Daily. Thank you. I had a cold shower as soon as I got in last night.

5:02It was the only thing I could do. Now, Colette says, I never email programmes and often shout at the radio. This is a first. there's a lot of chatter and airtime devoted to the challenges facing school leavers and those who are worried about accruing student debt well both my daughters had saturday jobs at our local waitrose and babysitting jobs while they went to secondary school they both said it helped them with their confidence talking to adults and so on it makes me so cross to see adults scanning their own shopping at self-service tills these jobs will vanish if we blindly do what used to be a service provided.

5:44Colette, thank you. I do understand where you're coming from. Both my girls did either hospitality jobs or babysitting. And you're right, it really does. It really does help them with confidence. The thing about the self-service tills, though, a lot of people, your generation, prefer them, don't they? Well, they're just... They're so quick. They're just quicker. If they were, they're really quick. And I think also my generation, my age, we're not doing big fat weekly shops where we need to lay everything out in the conveyor belt I'm getting four or five items at a time so it it just it just quickly scan them and get out I worked at Tesco for many years as a teenager I've sort of of the opinion that there's always going to be there's always going to be a customer who does need some sort of help yeah that you will need to communicate and help them face to face yeah so I do take Colette's point, but I don't think it's the be-all and end-all.

6:40Okay, well, this is not Unconnected. We'll keep this contributor anonymous. I'm quoting my son, she says, so this is why she wants to be anonymous, so we get it. He works for a big advertising agency, and he was telling me this week that they aren't hiring junior creatives because they're too reliant on chat GPT and don't want to work hard. He's pretty young himself, but came into the career pre-AI. When pressed by me, traumatised on behalf of our youth, he said they would take new graduates if they came with a good original portfolio but it's just not happening. He says all his colleagues use AI for some parts of the job and, for example, it has really hammered the stock photo industry but for copywriting and marketing ideas, it's slop.

7:30It struck me that young people are in danger of making themselves unemployable by using the new tech, whereas we tend to think it's employers who are always driving change. Having really good original ideas requires practice and experience and working the muscle that is the human brain. If you outsource thinking, it's like an Olympic athlete getting somebody else to put hours in at the track. Gosh, I think that's a really interesting contribution, and I get why you want to make sure that we don't know who you are so your son doesn't get into trouble, but isn't that an insight? I think it's such an interesting point.

8:09I think it's a bit of a vicious cycle that on the one hand, my little brother's just graduated from university and he's applying for jobs and he feels it's so competitive and you have to do so many applications and no one's going to get back to you. So on the one hand, they're being more efficient by relying on AI. And on the other hand, I think there's a lack of confidence because you've just entered the professional world. so there's an element of self-doubt so then you use AI to kind of bolster yourself a bit and clarify what you're doing and that email's right. You're also bound to think if everybody else is doing it I might as well.

8:43I've got to do it as well. And he'll do things like check his grammar on it and you're then not developing the critical skills and it just goes round and round. So he's never going to learn because he's never had to learn. Yeah. God, I tell you what thank you for raising the point, Anonymous because I think this is absolutely fascinating. She did mention an Olympic athlete, and here's a link coming up. Our guest is Olympic swimmer Mark Foster. There we are, that's brilliant. Oh, you've turned yourself off. You're back on. No, I'm back on. I didn't mean to turn myself off. Mark has competed at five Olympic Games, not consecutive.

9:18He actually missed the Olympics, I think, in Athens in 2004. And there is a story in his memoir about why he missed 2004. But he had a swimming career that went on for over 20 years. That's almost unheard of because swimming is so punishing. I mean, it's so demanding. And as he says in his book, which is called My Double Life, the stench of chlorine has just followed him throughout much of his life. He's quite glad to see the back of it now. He's really interesting. He's gay and he had to lead a kind of compartmentalised life when he was a competitor. and it's quite the insight, this book, actually, into what that was like for him.

9:59So he also acknowledges that he really did go off the rails when he was an adolescent and had to be reined in somewhat. And there will be a photo on the Instagram of Jane next to the, what is he, six foot four man? Six foot six. Six foot six. And Jane is not. No, I'm not on that picture. It's very evident to real shame if he wasn't in it. Because that would have been good. And we're sorry we couldn't bring you Lisa Jewell the other day because of the Farajarama, but we are hoping to have Lisa on the programme, aren't we? Yes, she's booked for the week after next. Oh, brilliant. Okay, so her new book, I think it's already at the top of the bestseller charts.

10:38I mean, she really does get people absolutely involved in her writing. So it'll be interesting to talk to her at that time. Now, we did talk about fabs yesterday. This is from Imogen. Are you ready for this? So ready. I am in the northwest, the Fylde Coast, aka near Blackpool, so it's not quite as hot, but I do have to weigh in on the importance of the fab lolly. When I was pregnant with my first child back in 1998, I existed on fabs and mushroom cuppa soups. I was 23, so against the odds, my body was still able to create a healthy child. Yes, I was just about to weigh in there with my health and safety advice and suggest that fabs and mushroom cuppa soups.

11:22Not the best. But then, as Eve already knows, no one should take pregnancy eating advice from me, the woman who put on four and a half stone. And then gave birth to quite a small baby. But she does love her grub. And that's a very good thing. I ate so much apple pie during... Oh, really? I just... God, Eve, I couldn't... Where did you get it from? Were you making it? There was a fat... No, I can't make pastry. I wish I could, actually. Do you know, it's one of the things I really regret, not asking my mum properly how to make pastry. She was great at pastry. Does anyone still make pastry, though?

11:56Well, she did up until really pretty well into her late 80s. She was still making fantastic pastry. Oh, that's an amazing thing. And I should have been. Anyway, you regret these things afterwards. It's too late now. But I did, there was a local deli that sold the most fantastic apple pie. And I just used to think, well, what harm can it do? I'm hungry and I feel sick. But when you're pregnant and you feel sick, you just want to eat. and it's a bizarre nausea, it's a really strange nausea, that is quelled by eating, or at least it was in my case. I mean, if there's ever a time in your life where you can just eat lots of apple pie, surely that's it.

12:31Well, there you go. Anyway, back to Imogen. Since the fab has always been a bit of a Proustian madeleine, over the last couple of years, they've become less of a treat, and actually, if I'm honest, a bit disappointing. I tried starting at the bottom and working up to the sprinkles, But the lolly is a bit challenging for my sensitive teeth when it's just come out of the freezer. I have exactly that same problem. Welcome to Eve's world, Imogen. Last summer, in a box of family favourites from Aldi, alongside not the real fabs were not the real knobbly bobblies. They're chock and sprinkles all the way up.

13:11Strawberry ice cream in the middle, such a treat. No disappointing ending, just a lovely chocky centre. The downside is there are only two in a box and I'm yet to find a box of knobbly bobblies and only knobbly bobblies. So for now, I extract them and hide them under frozen veg where no young person ever ventures and I save them for special solo occasions. Now, image and shout out is quite simple. If anybody knows where I can get multi-packs of knobbly bobblies, I would be very happy to hear. image and I love that someone will know if they are available I too have been known well into adult life I am capable of just hiding things in the fridge and around the house that I don't want my offspring to get hold of I mean it's wrong and it's puerile but look we've all got our little habits it's got to be done and they're not going to look under the frozen sprouts are they for a for a knobbly bobbly treat um oh actually sorry this is another AI message which I meant to do earlier.

14:17Sue says, I'm rather late to the AI discussion party. I was in France doing a studio art course last week. What kind of course? What kind of art? We'd like to know. ChatGPT helped me massively when I got stuck at Toulouse Airport, having been told by BA that my flight was cancelled for no obvious reason. ChatGPT via my phone app told me the BA number to call and had several suggestions as to how I might get back to London Heathrow. This gave me ammunition when I finally got through to BA and it saved me staying a night in Toulouse, probably at my own expense, flying me by KLM via Amsterdam. I know there are many bad uses of AI, but in my case, honestly, it was invaluable.

15:03Okay, Sue is now happily back in Tunbridge Wells. Victoria says, I am listening with interest to your chat about kitchen roll. Could I say that my suitcase from Perth in Australia came back half full of a product they have there called Glad Wrap. Ever heard of this? Never. Just far superior to our cling film. No messy struggling, just neat and tidy cut. Maybe we shouldn't be using this stuff, but let's face it, we all do. And my suitcase will be ready in January when I return. She says it's a lovely show. Thank you, Vicky. Yes, Eve? I think cling film in our country is due a bit of a revolution.

15:41Go on. It's just a bit rubbish. Controversial. Not my Lakeland cling film. Oh. Yeah, no. So I need to get myself to a retail park. I think you can go online and buy it. I mean, you're right, though. We shouldn't probably be using it, but... Kitchen Roll Erection. I have no words to describe the joy of hearing Eve's intended helpful and practical suggestion to the quandary of what to call Jane's holder. And Jane's quite motherly management of the situation. Thank you. I did have to get a wiggle on there, but I did it. Alison is in Tisbury. Never heard of Tisbury, have you? No. But welcome on board, Tisbury.

16:21I like it. Come in, Tisbury. Just listen to Jane saying how wonderful French kitchen roll is, as it can give a half sheet. I've just bought some in Sainsbury's in lovely Trowbridge. Can't remember who made it, but it's very useful to have a half sheet already perforated. Will you be seeking out some flexi-sheets, semi-sheets now? I think I'll, I mean, I will definitely look for them. But of course, the plain fact is, if it's already perforated, that doesn't actually constitute a half sheet, does it? It's a sheet. It's just a sheet. A smaller size of sheet. So what were you dealing with in France?

16:58Well, I was, exactly that. I was just, it was just a smaller bit of kitchen roll. Okay. But I called it a half-sheet. She slightly lost me. Neil, you were talking to your correspondent about bare-chested men behind her at the seaside. Yes, that was Rosie Wright, the indefatigable Times radio presenter and reporter who at the time sent to Clacton yesterday in Essex. Now, for listeners outside the United Kingdom, Clacton is a... How would you... It's a slightly, well, it's an Essex seaside resort. And I think it's all right to say that over the years, it's had a tough old time and it's regarded now as being somewhat down at heel.

17:44And I do actually know that there are some quite poor parts of that part of the English coast where people genuinely do have a tough time. But it is currently the constituency, well, actually, it's not anyone's constituency because the MP, Nigel Farage, has resigned this week. A by-election has been called. He's standing again. And so far, his only opponent is Count Binface. Now, it is one of the many wonderful things about British democracy that novelty candidates are as allowed to stand in a by-election or indeed any election as anyone else. And the Count is actually a comedian called John Harvey.

18:22He wears a bin on his head and he claims to be from outer space. So I hope you've kept up with that, wherever you're listening in the world. It's a strange old set of circumstances. That is because all the other parties have decided not to entertain Nigel Farage. And look, this is a long-running saga. It involves accusations of jiggery-pokery, shall we say, in terms of Mr Farage's finances. That's all I'm prepared to say about that. It's very, very complicated. And if you're a political nerd, it's an absolute gripper. so that's why Rosie Wright was sent to Clacton and while she was talking live to me on Times Radio I could see that behind her there was some a hunk no, no, I'm just going to say youths oh and they were bare-chested and holding cans of lager I think they'd come out sounds like a good time I think they'd come out of a local hostelry I mean it's just so hot in England everyone has taken leave of their senses what freaks me out, we're back to Neil are men who attend a theatre event in summer shorts and not long trousers.

19:26Now, Neil was at the Barbican Centre yesterday to see Helen George and Felicity Kendall in high society. This has been a much-praised production, and I think, Eve, you've seen it. Indeed, I have. Now, tell us about it. Well, it's just a ruddy good time. I went last Thursday with my mum, and we had a brilliant evening. It's a proper laugh, really beautiful set. There's lots of women in big frilly dresses, throwing them around. They're partying, they're boozing. This isn't in the audience. This is on stage. That was on stage. Okay, right, yeah. Yes. I didn't notice men in shorts. Well, Neil did.

20:05He goes on to say the seats in the Barbican Theatre stalls do not lift up. Yeah, and I did experience that, but me and my mum were right on the end of the row, so we were able to just step out and let people go past us. We didn't experience too many brushes. Well, look, Neil's got high standards and listeners to this podcast are allowed to have high standards. He says, if people have to pass in front of you, there's very little chance of seated knees not touching passing bare legs. I'm almost 64 and I was wearing long trousers, but it still gave me the ick. Because there would be some sticky knees.

20:41Certainly there will be at the moment. Neil what can I say thank you for doing your best to keep standards up by wearing long trousers to the theatre because no one wants to suffer with that Are you going to try and see High Society? I mean I always claim I'm going to try and see theatrical experiences I tell you what I am keen on seeing is Jesus Christ Superstar with Sam Ryder because it's had great reviews and I've had a quick gander at the prices, quite fancy prices just at the moment And I wonder whether I might be able to sneak in at a matinee at some point. I don't know. What do you think?

21:18Come on, your talent. Your immediate personality. They'll let you in. Occasionally I need to be reminded of this. I saw Mel C in Jesus Christ Superstar a few years ago. She's got a good voice, Mel C. It was good. She was playing Mary Magdalene. Yes, right. She wasn't Jesus Christ. I don't know if she could have been. I mean, you know. I can't remember who played Jesus Christ. Well, I don't know. It was all rather intense. Yes, well, it would be. But Mel C, we were talking about her yesterday on the programme because there are rumours that the Spice Girls might get back together. Oh, my God. I know.

21:54Weren't you listening to the programme? I think I was busy editing this podcast. It's amazing to think that this is how Eve spends her summer afternoons, isn't it? Just a quick word on pegs. God, we've covered some ground this week. We really have. Jane, I really need to know the make of your new extra strong pegs. Just an indication there from Eve that she was indeed ill earlier this week. She wasn't putting it on. Sandra says, I live in North Staffordshire with a very exposed back garden and I've tried endless packs of so-called storm pegs only to find my smalls scattered around the garden. And as for the pegs that slide up and down the line, resulting in clusters of knickers all down one end, well, they're just infuriating.

22:37My best pegs came from a holiday on a remote Greek island about 20 years ago, bought to hang holiday towels. They are industrial-strength wooden pegs that were built to withstand the apparent gale-force winds they suffer. I need more. Sadly, she's got a confession here, I'm a bit obsessive about hanging and washing on the line, using matching pegs for each item. Oh, come on, Sandra. Crikey. and strictly forbidding my husband from touching the washing on the line. It turns out I am not the only one with this form of behaviour. Believe it or not, there are Facebook groups dedicated to washing lines.

23:18I've got fond memories of watching a line full of Terry nappies blowing in the breeze. But maybe not so much the nappy buckets. Sandra, thank you. Terry nappies. certainly I think I can remember in our house the nappy bucket with the what was the product that you put into the nappy bucket I don't remember that but I can see them but Terry nappies I'm afraid I didn't use them was this to like neutralise them I think so I think in the days before disposable nappies which we know are terribly bad for the environment but bloody handy you had these cloth nappies instead so it was a lot of washing God you've learnt a lot today haven't you I really have kind of nappies, offal.

24:01I need a light on after this. Yeah, you probably will. Actually, Sandra, if I can help you out in any way with your peg fancying hobby, the ones I've got are called Carousel, C-A-R-A-S-E-L-L-E. And just because you really do like pegs, I can tell you they're eight centimetres long and you get 20 pegs in a pack. And the small print says they've got non-slip pads and a firm grip. So are they plastic ones? Yeah, they are, but they've got these knobbles on which I think make it easier for them to cling on to the product you've stuck, the thing you've stuck onto the line. Can I poke? I don't know much more about them, Eve.

24:43How much breeze are you getting in East West Kensington? Have they really been put to the test? Well, this is it, actually. You raise a good point there. I don't know, maybe Sandra. Sounds like Sandra's really facing the elements. In North Staffordshire, she's got an exposed back garden. I've got a back garden that's exposed, certainly, but only to a huge block of flats that overlooks the back of my house. Rural, it is not. I've not felt a breeze for weeks. No, no, do you know what? There was a woman on my tube line this morning who had a baby in a pram. And I did admire her for this. The baby was obviously a bit uncertain.

25:19You know how noisy tube lines can be sometimes? And it was rattling along. and the baby, she kept up a constant stream of conversation with the baby. I couldn't see the baby. I could just see that somebody, something was lying down in the pram. And she'd never once stopped talking, reassuring the baby, saying, don't worry, we're nearly there. And I thought, well, maybe the baby's sitting up and I just can't see it. Maybe it's two or three or maybe... But it was about six months old when I actually saw it. I don't know whether it's a girl or a boy. But she really was brilliant. she was so sweet with the baby and it was horribly hot and horribly noisy and i'll never know your name but you were brilliant at just making sure that uh the baby was okay in that pram because i don't think i'd fancy taking a baby across london no at the moment i really wouldn't it's a lot but sometimes you just got to they might have had an appointment or something so what can you do um before we get on to mark foster and my double life which is the name of his memoir just a quick mention to people who just well they've got experience of not giving a toss about football and Rachel is in Liverpool and trust me it's actually quite hard in Liverpool not to be interested in football and I mean I am so that's fine but honestly everyone thinks that you're going to be prepared to have a conversation about it and Rachel says our son not only has no interest he positively dislikes it his dislike comes from being a boy at school where most of his peers are very much into football.

26:49They wear football kits at every Own Clothes Day and World Book Day. And most adults who are trying to be friendly, but who don't really know him, assume that the most suitable topic of conversation will be football. I know men, says Rachel, who avoid getting into taxis when there's anything major going on in football because it will be assumed that they're happy to talk about it and they get an odd response when they say they're not interested or they don't know anything about it. Rachel, I'm sorry to God, I can't believe, are there really men in Liverpool or anywhere else not getting into cabs because they're concerned about that?

27:28I've got to say, I've used cabs a lot in Liverpool over the last year or so and, I mean, you're not wrong. It is a useful topic of conversation and I suppose because I'm happy to have it, it doesn't bother me. But you can be slightly put on the back foot if someone assumes you're going to know about it and care and you're just not. Yeah, do you pretend to engage and then expose yourself or do you just say up front, sorry mate, I'm not really interested. It's not for me. Yeah, I don't know. And also it's interesting you say mate. Do you use the word mate? No, I don't. But if someone's tried to talk to me about football, I fear I might end up slipping into it.

28:03Slipping into it, but it's quite funny. And Anonymous... Completely fake. Anonymous says, for the first time I've got to disagree with my favourite podcasters. as background to this I've got to say I just hate football and everything about it the crowds the money the hypocrisy how it consumes people to excess and how often people become rowdy and aggressive when watching I also have a strong opinion on the World Cup this year given that Donald Trump is at the centre which is rather gross to say the least I also agree with your other listener rugby is calmer I have never felt unsafe in the crowd at a rugby match very long story short she says I've just got back from a week abroad at an all-inclusive family hotel first time I'd gone with my fella and his two teenage boys I knew it would be world cup laden but I wanted to be on holiday and not have to spend half my time watching multiple football games I didn't think it was a hard ask as it was an expensive holiday we've been looking forward to for ages we agreed before we went that he and the boys would watch England games and I'd just Potter off to my room when they started and that was fine.

29:13But unfortunately when we came home my boyfriend told me the kids were annoyed at me because they couldn't watch football every single day. I'm talking about all the games and all the teams not just England. I go away on holiday to do things I can't usually do at home so watching TV with men shouting at it for two hours three times a day in 36 degree heat on a big screen it's my idea of hell and i don't know how anyone else doesn't feel the same anonymous thank you i feel for you i think maybe we could broaden this out to how sometimes it's just difficult to be with other people's children yeah well yeah let's just own it because that is not easy and sometimes there are different rules different interests and it's properly difficult to navigate.

30:04Anyway, Anonymous, I hope you've got some rest on that holiday. And it's not for everyone, is it? But let's just acknowledge that we'll both be watching on Saturday night, won't we? Yes, we will indeed. OK, now I'm going to Liverpool. I hope I can get back in time to be in front of my quite small television screen to watch events as they unfold. But what are you thinking? What's in your waters? Well, I'm going to be in France with lots of family friends. So I feel that we will have a celebration regardless. So I'm quite optimistic. I don't need all this. Who's going to win? I don't want to say what I think.

30:41Okay, I think... Do you feel the same? I don't know. I'm too frightened. Yeah, me too. I feel like if we say it, then we speak it into existence. But you know what? I thought Mexico were going to win. Yes, I did too. And they didn't. And they didn't. And they didn't. Norway for the win. Ha-ha, yes. Right, yeah. Also, I don't know bugger all anyway, so don't ask me. Don't out yourself a day, bugger all. You've been incredibly informed this week, Eve. Now, so you're off next week, but Fia's back. Fia's back. Hannah's looking after you both. OK. I'm back on Thursday. All right, we'll have a lovely time.

31:13Thank you ever so much. Yeah. Don't miss me too much. Yeah, just look out for the kitchen roll, all right? Mark Foster is a British swimming legend, a five-time Olympian, a six-time world champion and an eight-time world record holder. and perhaps most remarkably he had a 23 year competitive swimming career that is a lot of 5am starts and a very very strong whiff of chlorine the title of mark's memoir my double life more than hints at the compromises he felt he had to make as a gay athlete he's very honest in the book at times quite hard on himself and it starts with just how much of a handful he was as a child I was naughty, yeah.

31:54And the rest. Just tell us, give us a little bit of an insight. Mum always said I was naughty and not nasty. I think the thing is, I was a kid, and I was one of those kids that sort of played up a bit, if you like. And I think the playing up was, I don't think consciously, but subconsciously, there was probably also an element of knowing that... I didn't think this, but if I'm a naughty boy and I play up, I'm not going to be a gay boy in my head. I'm not, as I say, I didn't consciously think that at the time. But you wonder now whether you thought the two were. Yeah, yeah. Or was I doing those things?

32:30Yeah, because, I don't know, I just, I didn't, disruptive. You know, because I know later on I created a few sort of sub-stories with, you know, a pretend girlfriend and these other things. I don't know. I'm not saying it was all to do with that, but there's probably a connection with it. When you look back and you reflect on certain elements, you go, that kind of makes sense. you did grow up at a time of real homophobia there's no doubt about it and then there's homophobia and then there's homophobia in the world of sport yeah so people are aware of the period of time we're talking about you're in your 50s and you were growing up when and where i was born in 1970 i grew up in south of the north sea in essex i was born in billerickey famous for billerickey dickie um injury in the blockheads yeah and uh yeah grew up in south in Essex and so when I kind of thought I might be gay, might not be gay, didn't know, I mean it's one of those things as a kid, I didn't know what I was and I wasn't trying to decide that about myself early doors.

33:27But it was at a time when homophobia from the playground, Sunday school, what I saw on the news, everything I heard was being gay is not okay. You know, racism was rife. A lot of these things were, you know, it wasn't a good time in that sense. I mean, growing up in the 80s, I thought it was awesome outside of that. So as a kid, you want to fit in. As a kid, you want to be liked. You want your parents to be proud of you. And when you hear, you know, if you're gay, and you know how much should your sexuality define you, but if you're gay, then that's not a good thing. So I, at that time, got very good at hiding away.

34:09I guess, well, I guess part of that was probably, a, I'm not your typical gay man and I don't mean that in a sense I'm straight acting and I don't try and be straight acting, I'm just and that's the beauty of all of this, which is the whole thing about my double life and all the rest of it, it's ultimate, it's not about sexuality, colour of your skin, I mean, let people just be people, whatever they might be, I'm just Mark and I always say it, my other half is always like, oh, you know, people, and I'm like people recognise you, I'm like, I'm just Mark that's all I am. Yeah, and the most extraordinary thing about you is how good you were at swimming your sexuality is not irrelevant because it clearly played a huge part in certainly in your story yes um but the book begins and i thought it was such an insight into you break you break a record when you've had no sleep at all and you've had two pints of lager in the early hours of the morning yes just tell us that story well basically what happened was it was the uh the european championships it was in sheffield it was a home game so my family came along my other half came along and they never came along generally to watch me swim but you weren't out at the time i wasn't out at the time no so my family knew mum knew sisters knew there was a time that i opened up and i told them um close friends knew but the swimming world nah my other half for all intents and purposes to them was a friend friend of the family sponsor whatever whatever else they might have painted a picture around or i told them um so no it was the night before the race it was i went to bed european championships i was excited i was nervous i knew i was in good form um but i wanted my family to see me perform and i wanted to perform well right but you want to do it in front of your family first and foremost so i went to sleep around 10 or so i went to sleep i tried to go to sleep then it was 11 then it was 12 and then it was one o 'clock and i messaged the other half they were downstairs in the bar with a couple of friends that are up there with him uh and they they went, why don't you come down and have a drink?

36:01And I'm like, not a good idea in the team hotel. But they went, there's no one around. So I went downstairs and I had, they said it would help you sleep. No, I mean, they're not exactly sports scientists here, by the way, my mates. So I had one beer, then I had two beers, that was it. It wasn't an excessive thing. And I went upstairs and I didn't go back to my bedroom because I was sharing a room with Sean Bryn, who was another British athlete who was fast asleep. So I went to the other half's room and they were in the hotel and another part of the hotel. and I went to bed at two and then it was three and then it was four and I just remember getting to about 4.30 and all the while in my head I'm going you've got to get up in the morning and qualify because otherwise this is not going to look very good when your friends and family come up to support you and see you and then made it travel all this way to Sheffield so eventually fell to sleep but I must have slept for about two hours I remember waking up and going I feel dreadful if anyone obviously people know about no sleep if they're getting up for a plane or whatever it might be and I just remember going this is not good I got to the pool I warmed up I stepped on the block for the eights and I thought look you better give it this morning because if you don't make the final that's not good and I just hammered it and I broke the world record I will say I also broke the world record again in the evening I'm more of an evening person but it was one of those so twice in one day yeah it was quite cool but it was one of those I don't know it just sort of it just happened but my reflection was I didn't let anybody else down but that wasn't the main thing the thing was whether I slept the night before the race as long as I'd done all the work then it didn't matter what happened the month.

37:27How old were you at this point? I was 28. Okay, and you'd been, obviously your ability as a swimmer had been picked up on when you were very, very young. Yes. Your mum emerges as a really strong character in the book. Not always easy, quite... Oh, she's formidable, my mum. Formidable, okay. You chose that one. I said it. That's all right. No, she's cool. She herself was adopted, and I mean, maybe it's cod psychology, but she was determined that you were going to succeed wasn't she yeah she was adopted 19 she was born in 1941 her dad who she never met was a spitfire pilot her mum when she had my mum was 17 so a bit of a no-no back in 1941 uh she actually never got to meet her mum until she was 65 so she was adopted by her parents my grandparents who i would say are my grandparents and they loved her and looked after her and I think that the beauty for that for me was an element of mum's kids were everything she would never you know because of her experience she's never going to give her kids up not that many people give their kids up by the way but she was also when I did come out to my mum which was at 24 I remember speaking to her I told my sister first my younger sister first and I think the thing is we always build these things up in our head to be worst case scenario we're always thinking what may go wrong as opposed to actually what the positive outcome might be and my sister was awesome and what did I expect I didn't know that's the thing I was just in fear of the unknown she was cool and then about a year later I told my mum and I sat down and I said I've got something to tell you and she obviously probably thought I was being naughty again got in trouble because I got kicked out of school and did all sorts of things as a kid and I just and I obviously I said I'm gay and she said what did I do wrong that was the first comment and I was obviously like nothing but then she's you know generation before me when being gay was illegal didn't have any gay friends didn't even know she knew any gay people so to speak uh and then she started self-reflecting you know she was sort of going okay we're going to head going what her friend friend's going to think she said to me well i'm not going to have any grandkids which is we know now you can have surrogacy there's adoption there's other ways of having children um but it was all her stuff but then after about 10 15 minutes she just gave me a hug and said look i love you no matter what and i was very fortunate because I've watched It's a Sin and these other things.

39:47I've heard people's stories where they were kicked out of the house, disowned by the family and horrific. So I was lucky. My response was good. In swimming, though, would it have been possible at that time to say to your coaches, to the administrative people, this is me? Could you have done that? I don't know. I just wasn't going to risk it. Because I don't know. I don't know. I guess the thing is, being in a change room with a load of lads, what they've said and I think that's the thing with Premier League football now you know they share a change room with the other lads and boys banter is it's more than banter on occasions it's quite it would have been very homophobic back then the banter and what my coach would have thought I mean when I become more successful my sponsors would have thought I just didn't want to take the risk I shared bearing in mind 23 years at senior level and I shared a room with another swimmer we had roommates when we went away would they want to share with me?

40:46I don't know. I don't know. A lot of those mates who I shared with, by the way, are my best friends now. But it's one of those, I just didn't want to take that risk at the time. I'm just in front of me, I've got an article from the Times, Martina Navratilova. And the headline is, I came out 45 years ago, I never pretended. Now, I remember Martina Navratilova in my teenage years. She was obviously a genius tennis player, but people were horrible about her. I mean, she's absolutely right. We did know that she was a lesbian and she got a tremendous amount of grief. Is it in any way, though, quotes, easier for a woman in sport to come out, do you think, than for a man?

41:26I would think it probably is. Yes. And there's a lot more gay out women than there would be men. I've seen it from, I know a few hockey footballers. And yeah, I mean, you have to speak to them. I'm not saying people still don't get abused for it or get abused, you know. Everyone's got their own experience. But I know on the men's side of things, it's historically, you know, you're meant to be a bit of a gladiator, you're meant to be a bloke, you're meant to be a lad, you're meant to be all these things. No, you're not. You're just meant to be yourself. You know, and as long as you're in a space, an environment where, and this is where people thrive, and whether it be at work or whether it be at sport, or just, you know, it's been in a space where you can just be yourself.

42:11I've had a few messages from people on social media and I've got to be brutally honest I don't read stuff generally I'm not a deep thinker you might think definitely with a book but no I don't I'm generally thick skinned I don't care what other people think but I got a couple of messages in there from a couple of ladies who said their sons are 23 and they've just come out to them one of them's a professional tennis player and the other one was just I don't know, she didn't say, just a lad. But they said how by standing up and speaking out and making things a little bit more normal, and I know a lot of people go, oh, you know, someone coming out.

42:51It's not me coming out. I came out 10 years ago. I came out to my family 30 years ago. It's not about a coming out story at all. It just happens to be called my double life. But a lot of people go to work and show the world a version of them that they think the world wants to see, and then they go home themselves. So we all do it in a different way, which is not about your sexuality all the time. You can't speak for other people, but it does remain a peculiarity, shall we say, that there are no men in professional football able to come out. And I say able because I totally understand that it probably would be just about impossible if someone were to do it on their own.

43:26I guess if a group of players did it, then maybe... Strength in numbers, there'd definitely be something in there. I think we're all surprised really about... And this is what, in our mind, we come up with worst case scenario. And we do it with most things we do. And I get it. I get why we do it. Because it's catastrophized syndrome, isn't it? And also, if you build up the worst case scenario, things are going to need to be better. But it's that first person to step up, first person to do it. If you did it together with a group of people, yes. There has to be some gay footballers within football.

43:57But then again, also, and I know a few people who are still married with kids. there's no way they will come out because they're married with kids and they're like, well, no, this is my life now. It's not the life I want to lead, but it is the life that I decided I had to leave. Now, this generation of footballers now are a lot younger. So, I don't know. I just hope if I say this generation, it makes up with sounding all of them are gay and they're not. But there's bound to be one or two. But then there's an interesting documentary out now on Prime. I don't know if I can mention that on here. You can, yeah.

44:33And I don't know the guy's name. I just saw it advertised on social media it was a footballer he used to play for Norwich City and the thing is he went missing 40 years ago and it's basically because he knew he was gay and he quit football and had to basically hike out of there because he didn't want to be found out but you know there'll be stories like that where people would have got into football and went I can't stand football because I can't be myself so they'd have given up or the other ones are probably a few that might be still in there living that lie I don't know I can't say yeah I mean it strikes me that you're not exactly still coming to terms with it but are you angry on behalf of the person you had to be for so long no no because i wasn't a torture soul um i was i was very very lucky i had really good people around me nice people around me uh and i've never had any homophobic abuse but can i just point out you're six foot four six six sorry those two inches matter when people come out like they're going to take you on okay no i'm sorry But actually, you say that.

45:35Of course that matters. I am a big softie, but I think one of the things is, again, on social media, someone posted a message to me and they went, you used to go to school with you, you won't remember me. I was a year below you. And it was when I was 13, they were 12. So we were playing bulldog in the playground. You know the game where you try and run across and get past people. It was banned in most playgrounds, Mark. Yeah, it probably should be. But it was back then, it wasn't. There was no health and safety. and they said, I can't mention the person's name because they're quite well known, they grabbed me and they were going to beat the living uh out of me and you stop them and I never like bullies.

46:11I don't like bullies. So, and I think whether it be homophobia, racism, people against religion, people just bullies. I don't understand why people bully minority groups. What, because they're different? They feel, you know, I just don't get it. So I stand up for people. That's part of doing the book, but also part of doing the book which is just basically saying that this is just me and I just hope other people can go. just let people be themselves. Just give us your swimming credentials. Now, I know you competed at five Olympic Games, which is astonishing. How many medals did you win in the Commonwealth Games and European Championships?

46:42I represent Britain for 23 years, went to five Olympics, won six World Championships, 11 European Championships, two Commonwealth Games, and I broke the world record eight times. Yeah, I mean, that is fabulous. I did all right. Yeah, you did do all right. I just never won the big one. And people always want to know about the big one. Well, that's my next question, Mark. No, I didn't win that one. So you went to, which was your favourite of the five Olympics you went to? I would have to say, I went 88 Seoul, 92 Barcelona, 96 Atlanta, 2000 Sydney. Missed 2004, there's a story about that in the book.

47:13And then came back in 2008 Beijing. But my favourite one would have to be Sydney in 2000 because I love more hate and Australians love sport. And they're knowledgeable about sport. And I remember a couple of years before racing in Perth, I think it was. I raced at a World Cup event and I was walking down the street and people from over the other side of the road were chanting my name. They're Aussies. And I'm like, hang on, people in the UK do not know me and you lot know me because they show swimming. And swimming in Australia is like Premier League football in the UK. They love their swimming and it's just a big, big sport.

47:45So Sydney Olympics was awesome. I'll never really understand it, but can you try and explain how it feels when the swimming just goes right? I mean, I think you say in the book that it's almost like when it was great, you were like an animal. You were like a human fish. Just take us inside all that. I think ultimately any sports people want to have the day where they go, well, for me, it was the perfect swim. Did I have the perfect swim? Nah. Because even when I broke the world record, I came out going, I think I can do that better. Because when you're doing something, it's amazing, your brain can compute 8 million things at a time or every second, something ridiculously stupid.

48:23So from the gun going to reacting on the block to entering the water to taking my first stroke to taking my last stroke, I can feel everything and I'd touch the wall and I'd go I knew it was good, just not how good it was but then you touch the wall and if you break the world record you still turn around and you're obviously happy but it was still your best time so what motivates you and drives you is to get back in the pool the next day or go in the gym and push and go again and try and do a best time, it's just the best time happened to be the world record but there were also days when my biggest thing was holding myself back because I would get sometimes a little bit too excited a little bit too keen a little bit too nervous and if I tried too hard at the beginning although it sounds silly my race is 32 strokes if I tried a little bit too much at the beginning I just got tense and I just slipped the water a little bit and it would only be hundreds or fractions of second difference between a great swim and a good swim but I could feel the difference can we just discuss the elephant in the room which is the stench of chlorine which uh you do see it's still here now yeah well yeah actually that's the thing i noticed when it came in no but um you're you're you describe the house you grew up in which was just it just always reeked of chlorine well i swam 10 times a week that you mentioned about my mum being formidable formidable earlier and and she's awesome she's lovely she used to get me up every morning at five o 'clock breakfast at 5 15 put me in the car at 5 30 take me to the pool and I'd swim from six to eight every morning, Monday to Friday.

49:53So two hours every morning when most other kids were in their bed sleeping or doing their homework before they get to school, whatever they were doing, I don't know. Five mornings a week and then she'd take me to training afterwards on Monday, Friday, once on Saturday, twice on Sunday. So like 10 sessions in a week and she really was the driving force behind me. But if you imagine back then in the late 70s, early 80s, not so much like now where they have pools that are like ozone pools where they're filtered in a different way. back then it was, my coach would come on poolside and he'd literally get a big bag of powder chlorine, get a knife and slice it down the side, shove it in the water and this big white cloud would appear in the pool and we'd all swim through it and go, oh, the white cloud.

50:35We didn't know what it was doing. I'm surprised I could actually breathe, to be fair now, like asbestos poisoning. And then the chlorine would just disperse within the pool. So, yeah, when you're breathing above the water So when you're racing, we cough quite a lot, as you can imagine. For someone listening who's got a child who genuinely shows promise at swimming or wants to excel at swimming, is it just... I mean, the punishing schedule you described there, not least for your mum, and the potential for success exists, but the chances are you won't be a medalist, you won't get to the European or the World Championships or the Olympics.

51:12Is it worth doing if your child desperately wants to have a go? I think it's desperately worth supporting whatever they want to do to the point where they don't want to do it anymore. And then the group of people, they end up training. They were my tribe, right? They were my people. They did the same thing as me. We went training in the morning. People said, did you make sacrifices? And I went, well, no, because all my mates went training. All my mates went to competitions. So to hang out with my mates, I needed to turn up. But when you go back to saying about not many people get the chance to represent Britain at the Olympics, 30 to 35 swimmers go men and women together 30 to 35 every four years for Olympic Games that's not a lot of people considering there's 300 ,000 registered swimmers in the UK and also you've just got to a lot of people vaguely know about the, how can I describe it hedonistic antics of the swimmers at the Olympic Games after the swimming events are over ok, right it's not to compete it's to have the party afterwards It is.

52:15Well, first of all, I'll go back a little bit, which is basically everyone's got a best time. Everyone wants to do their best time. Every kid, whatever they do, can just do their best and be the best that they can be. I was never Michael Phelps. I tried to be. I tried to be an Ian Thorpe. I was good, just not as good as they were. But then when it comes to the Olympic Games, you take 15 ,000 athletes and shove them in a village which has been built, which gets sold on afterwards, the flats and stuff. But you get 15 ,000 athletes who have just competed in the Olympics or trained for the Olympics for four years and they then want to let off some steam, you've got a lot of fit people in one space.

52:50So your hedonism thing will probably happen. Heavy lifting, that expression. Good memories? Yeah. First Olympic Games, 88 in Seoul, when we finished, because swimming's always the first week, with other sports and athletics the second week. So when we finished, we then got a week, six days, eight days afterwards where we're done. We're still in the Olympic Village. We don't fly home until the team flies home at the end. And then the beauty of making the Olympics is you get a lanyard with a pass, which gets you into the Olympic Village to where your accommodation, food, but it also gets you into the field of play.

53:31So we can go and watch anything. So from rowing to athletics to boxing, anything. So that's the beauty. It's Willy Wonka's ticket. You get to go and see everything. but it's yeah when people are finished they tend to go out and they come in at 8 o 'clock in the morning and sleep through the morning and then they maybe go and see somebody in the afternoon and they go out again and they do it all again it's kind of like well it used to be swimming became professional in 1996 after my third Olympics but before that it literally was like club 18 to 30 you finished and you went right where are we going where are we going tonight the team and 35 swimmers just went out together but then you went out with all the Australians and the Americans and it was one big party.

54:14Yeah, but with the smell of chlorine, presumably. With the smell of chlorine. We were all clean. I always say to people, I was the cleanest kid in school and we were the cleanest team on the town. Mark Foster and his book is called My Double Life and you don't have to be interested in swimming or sport, actually, to be interested in that book. It's quite intriguing at times. Right, next week, Eve might not be here but she's been hard at work booking great guests and we are going to be talking next week to Andy Oliver, TV host, great chef, of course. She's always really, really interesting to talk to.

54:45The fashion designer, Amanda Wakeley, is on as well. And, of course, we finally got round to talking and catching up with the novelist, Claire Powell, after all that confusion caused by me about her novel at the table. And her new one is out now, and I'm enjoying that as well. So, Claire Powell with us next week. Have a good couple of days. And if you're remotely interested, you, like us, Like us, we'll have everything crossed for Saturday night. Come on! I hated the way I said that. Me too. I'll say it more delicately. Come on. Come on. Thank you. It's better. Bye. Bye.

55:35congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with jane and fee thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day monday to thursday two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

56:17you