Concealing a 5G tower in my bra

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1:13A little slurp. Well, it's revolting. Some people immediately have switched off. But we're doing ourselves good because I'm reading here in The Times. Five coffees a day could perk up your health. It's quite a lot, isn't it? It is quite a lot. I've got to say five. I think it would do for me, if I'm honest. This is an article made by health editor Eleanor Haywood. Researchers from the American Heart Association said that having two to four cups of coffee a day was linked to a lower risk of heart disease, diabetes, heart failure and stroke. A coffee has about 80 to 100 milligrams of caffeine. Tea's got about 50.

1:49A can of Coke has got 33. A can of Red Bull, 80. right never had a red bull have you i had a red bull once and i knew that i never ever needed to have a red bull again it was about 15 years ago i think i'm still a little bit high because of it on the strength of it okay um but it's good to know that coffee i mean i've got to say five no that would tip me over the edge absolutely it would be too much well quite often i over caffeinate in the morning because i don't stop myself in time you know when you're trying to teach your kids something sensible about drinking and you say wait half an hour between between glasses drink a pint of water yeah all that type of stuff i don't take my own advice over coffee and i'm so excited by being caffeinated by cup number two i think yeah i'm just going to go straight in for cup number three and i'm doing it with a stove pot these days instead of a French press thingy.

2:45Right. So this is, you boil it up. So this, that's, it's one of the little, I always think they're very, very Italian. The ones that you fill, they look a little bit rhomboid. Do you think that's the right shape? Who knows? Go for it. Yeah. And you put water in the bottom, coffee in the middle, screw the top on very tightly, put it on the stove, and it steams it all up, doesn't it? I've made a directional hand movement there. which I found helpful. It just sounds very mindful and part of your early morning ritual. And we all have them, don't we? It's such a good point, Jane. I think that's why I do it.

3:20Yeah, I admire that. Because I like to do all of that kind of hand-eye coordination whilst having a little fuss over the kitty cats. Also, on this same page is a picture of a silent disco at Kew Gardens. Do you like a silent disco? I'm going to point it out. What's the bloody appeal of a silent disco? Honest to God, what's the bloody point? I mean, I thought the whole point of dancing like that was to do it. You're all in unison. Oh, Debbie Downer. Sorry, I don't get it. I don't get it. They're very good fun because everybody slightly loses an inhibition. It's really weird. Yeah, but why not lose your inhibitions to the same bit of music?

4:00Because sometimes it is a bit... I find it more liberating to not be in tune with everybody else than in tune with everybody else. And also it's very, very good for the neighbours. yes i don't care about mine um so take it or leave it you definitely need more coffee this morning uh yes please explain to me uh genuinely if you i know that lots of festivals they have a like a silent disco option i've heard this from my youngsters in the early hours of of the morning don't they they have you can i believe the phrase is you can come down with a bit of a silent disco would that be right i just don't know i'd have been fast asleep since nine o 'clock but anyway also just something else i wanted to mention because i'm afraid this really struck a chord with me hillary rose has written in the times today i've realized what's bothering me our new prime minister fancies himself and hillary has just said that andy burnham unlike some of his predecessors isn't a buffoon or a loon he just fancies himself um that's it in a shell nut and I'm kind of with her, I have to say.

5:09Andy Burnham's biggest fan is definitely Andy Burnham. A Burnham. Yeah. But he is, I don't think he is the man for all times, but I think he's the man for this time. He's the time for this week. No, because that's the type of person who is really getting on in the world. So you might as well have one of them up there. You know, if you really enjoy making a TikTok reel and if you really enjoy laboriously choosing your outfits, It's if you have a personal style. You know, all of these things are very, very now. And I just think, OK, we'll go get them. And you've got... It's a very, very, very fine line, isn't there, between self-belief and narcissism.

5:53And we will have to wait and see. We will. And our listeners to Times Radio... It's only been there for 24 hours. Less than 24 hours. What were they saying yesterday? I mean, we've got lots of funny WhatsApp messages, but I'll give him a week or in some more optimistic cases a month or two people are biding their time and not prepared to rush to judgment until next week when they will obviously rush to judgment why are we talking about this when we could be be in the presence of a record breaker oh this is eve coming well honestly why are we bothering with politics when we need to get to the real meat on our podcast bone.

6:32So I went down to Hastings where they host an annual pirate festival. It was the first time I'd got involved in this sort of thing. Is it? I'm told I was part of a world record. So apart from the dressing up, what do you do? I mean, do you go, do you bring in some illegal rum? On the Sunday there is a parade and there's some live music. Is the live music the kind of rum-tiddly yum-tum-tum? Doing some sea shanties. But it's good fun because as soon as we got on the train, some people came up and we're all chatting with each other. Lovely. You know, you see your fellow pirates. I have no particular affiliation with pirates.

7:10Well, I'm glad you said that because what they did was actually illegal.

7:17I know there were lady pirates. Who's the famous one? Grace O'Malley, I think, was the famous. They're also coming in on small, medium and large boats. Yes, absolutely. that's proved tricky for this country recently. Well, what a lovely thing to do, just out of interest. And why was it a ladies-only event? Because it's my friend who's got a house down in Hastings. Okay, so is this why when I entered the building today you were all discussing second homes and trying to persuade Jane to buy one so you could all go and stay in it? Yes, that is more or less it. Hastings didn't really cut the mustard.

7:47I was really glad when you arrived today. Not that I'm not always glad because I was being put under a tremendous pressure. I can barely maintain one home, never mind the idea of taking on another one. It's gone from buying a round of coffees in the morning to a second home somewhere outside Saint-Emilion and that's quite a leap, isn't it? Too much. Leave me alone to enjoy my doted. But it is true. You did say the other day that actually having a holiday home is of enormous and luxurious benefit to your friends but it's really, really not for you at all. No, because it's a colossal responsibility, isn't it?

8:23Very much so. Obviously, it's a luxury and it's beyond the reach of the overwhelming majority of the population. But yeah, the people who benefit from people's second homes are the mates of people who've got second homes. Because you don't have to go over there and, you know, get the boiler going. Don't worry about the guttering. Just turn up. But also to dwell on this for a moment, you did say that when you went to France, you actually found that you were very welcome in that part of France. Yes. I thought that was interesting because I think we sometimes only hear the bad stories, don't we? We only see the sharks fill in the bay, which is that some expat communities really aren't particularly welcome on the continent anymore.

9:03But you felt that there was a love of the Ross Beef. Yes, we just got a very warm reception in shops. Obviously, I was with rather, if I say so myself, a non-threatening group of middle-aged women. and obviously we were very polite and we had two fluent French speakers in the group which really helps. I mean, as you know, I'm not one of them but that really does help and people do warm to you, I think, because of that and we spent money in local shops and, you know. But also there is still... How can I put this without sounding horribly, you know, like some old git? There are still memories of what happened in World War II, I think, in parts of France, felt perhaps more keenly in some parts of France than others.

9:54So, look, there we are. I'm not in any way anti-German. I think it's a great country. Let's stop this now. No, let's stop this now. I'm just annoying people. I'm with you. But do you know what? I'm often struck. We used to go to the same part of France every year when the kids were much younger in the Midi Pyrenees, which is such beautiful rural France. And every single village would have an obelisk in the town square, naming all the young men who didn't come home. And you felt, because there's no new development around many of those villages and towns, and you just knew that it was their entire male population who went off to fight and didn't come back.

10:33It was so moving. And I know that we have similar commemorations in this country, but it doesn't feel like the number of names on the board in the local church or on the obelisk actually outweigh the number of people who ever lived there. So it always really struck me as a beautiful, beautiful part of the world where your sadness, I think, would still be quite connected, I suppose that's what I'm trying to say. Well, I think sometimes in this country, we don't have it in our collective muscle memory, the idea of invasion. No, we don't. We went toward it. It came to us in the form of terrible bombing and obviously lives were impacted, but we didn't have foreign troops on our shores, apart from the Americans who came over to help out and, of course, the American forces who remain on our shores to this day.

11:29But let's get lighter. Let's get lighter, Fee. Let's get lighter. And also, because I want to do a plea to Ali to come back. So Ali and I were friends over the airwaves through this podcast, but I've let her down, Jan. Well, on two fronts. On two fronts, yep. So, Ali couldn't believe my views on chickpeas and Little House on the Prairie. Firstly, chickpeas are delicious. When cooking them, I always sneak a few teaspoons straight out of the tin, even the standard ones from Tesco. I do love the bowl beans ones, but I'm now worried about what's in the jar and we'll read the ingredients thoroughly next time.

12:07We're just trying to work out why they're so tasty. Well, yeah, there is something in there. Do you know, I made a very nice recipe. Do you remember Hugh Fernley-Whittingstall came on? He's not dead. But he came on. I can't remember how long ago he came on, but he came on a couple of months ago and I had the cookbook from that. And there's a very nice recipe, white beans and courgettes. It's kind of, the idea is that you have them on toast as an alternative to baked beans. Anyway, I made that over the weekend. Really tasty. But I used a jar of the bold white beans. But they come in this sort of gloopy soup.

12:38Yeah. And you're right to ask... What's in the gloop? What is that and why is it so lovely? And is it the juice of the white bean? Because I don't think they have juice, do they? I don't know. Where did they come from, those white beans? You don't want to pour the gloop away, do you? No, you're meant to. You're meant to keep it and add it. It actually was added to the courgettes. Can I just, sorry, we'll get back to you, Ali, in a sec. It's an important culinary question. How did you prevent your courgettes from going slimy? Did you have to do that soaking with salt first? No, I just fried them.

13:11I just fried them with an onion. Interesting. Right, so we're back with you, Ali. Secondly, Little House on the Prairie was one of my favourite TV shows. Like Jane, I also had a crush on the dad, but loved it all. Really identified with Laura. I'd read the books, but still loved the TV series. It was repeated on Channel 4 when I was 17. That was in 1989. So we're quite close in age as well, Ali. And I loved watching it all over again. On a Sunday morning, I'd do some driving practice with my dad and come home to watch Little House, followed by The Waltons, a perfect Sunday. I'm not sure I want to watch the new series, although I felt the same way about Poldark and in the end fell in love with the new version almost as much as I'd love the original one.

13:52Fee, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. So I've been told and I haven't even given the new Little House on the Prairie a go. So I will do that after I've got to the end of the pit, which is making me a little bit worried before going to bed. Okay, but you're on the first series, aren't you? I am, yeah. I know what you mean. It's very, very nerve-shredding, but I do think it's brilliantly done. It is brilliant, but it is visceral. Yes. And they do that thing where they're slightly out of tune with your normal algorithm about programmes like that. So if you've watched one episode where something horrendous, horrendous happens and the patient doesn't make it, you feel that you rather deserve in the next episode for something good to happen that's that's the way that it usually works isn't it and they don't do that no they don't no they don't do that so i've been finding that a little bit tricky but addictive so i will dive in i might do the i might do the double there i'll dive into little house on the prairie with a can of chickpeas yeah and ali come back to provide photographic evidence there's no need for that there's There's enough photographs on Instagram now which have been circulated around far too many family members.

15:10Keep on trucking. You can laugh, but don't laugh like that. No, exactly. Yes, I know exactly. There is laughter that's joyous and strangely life-affirming. And then there's the other kind of laughter, isn't there? Which is cruel. Yes, just plain cruel. Celia says, I was listening last week while Jane talked about how she carefully measured out 150 grams of Greek yoghurt and was shocked to see how small the portion was. It reminded me of one of my several attempts at Weight Watchers when, knowing that if I only stopped eating bread and cheese, I may actually lose some weight, followed a recipe.

15:41It said, to taste this recipe, you can add a treat of 40 grams of cheese to this meal. Well, these treats were the extra special things we could have very occasionally in our diet. so I duly weighed out 40 grams of cheese and was horrified to see that it was about the size of the piece that I was usually left with after I'd finished grating and just popped in my gob suffice to say that cheese is still my downfall I'm so with you Celia if I didn't eat while I was cooking I'd be the size, I'd be like a little pencil with legs I really would but everyone, at least I think everyone eats while they're cooking and everybody eats that piece of cheese because you get to the point where you'd actually be shredding your fingers if you went any further.

16:27And what are you meant to do with that? You can't put the great big knob of cheese into your cauliflower. I mean, Parmesan in particular. I absolutely love a little knob of Parmesan. Super. You're very classy, aren't you? Philippa says she enjoyed our discussion on Greek yogurt, but I was dying for you to say what percentage fat you buy. My husband has got high blood sugar, so he insists on 0%. But anything higher is so much tastier, and the higher you go, the more delicious it is. Please discuss which is healthiest, and if even 10 % fat is better than none at all. Okay. Well, neither of us are qualified nutritionists.

17:06But that's not stopped us in the past. Here we go. So listen up. But there's increasing evidence, isn't there, that A, the higher the fat content and the protein content, the fuller it makes you feel. so if you're actually using 0 % as a means of weight loss you're probably going to be starving and eat something inappropriate like your knob of cheese about 10 minutes later and fats are good for us and fats are really, really, really good for us at a certain age in our lives now yes, like now so I'm never quite sure what a good fat is but I think I'm dimly aware that there is good fat in yogurt Greek yogurt in particular and I can't, it's interesting we were having a little discussion about this in the office the other day It's quite rare to find the 2 % Greek yoghurt, but apparently it's quite prevalent in East London.

17:52Yes, it's very prevalent. Can't get it in East West Kensington at all. You can only get nought and five. Right, the 2 % is very available. So in my... Why are you laughing? I know, she's high as a kite since her record-breaking weekend. She's got an air and grace about her that she didn't have last week. Which you don't really associate with pirates. In our local cost increases, there is a whole shelf dedicated to the different percentages of yogurt and a whole shelf of kimchi as well. So you can have various different types of kimchi and all manner of cheeses. I think equal space is given to the sheep cheese, the goat's cheese and the normal cheese.

18:32Sorry, I've been a little bit bovine prejudiced there. Yes, you should say normal. No. A lot of people are very offended by that fee. Robin says, I can't speak for modern Greek yogurt, but traditionally Greek yoghurt would have been made from sheep's milk. Is that true? Well, I guess so, because you would have had an awful lot of sheep on the hillsides of Greece and an awful lot of goats, wouldn't you? And very few cows, they don't have. Yeah. Have you seen cows when you've been in Greece? I haven't. I haven't. Does Greece have any cows? They have loads of goats, don't they? So wouldn't it be...

19:04I don't want to undermine Robin's knowledge. Wouldn't they have more goats than sheep? I don't know. Fascinating. We'll continue. Eve's currently looking it up. We do have a guest. Who's the guest today? Our guest is Harry Hardesty, who started posting on the socials thoughts about his love life and rejection and difficulties with your head when your relationships fail and stuff like that. And he really struck a chord with people and he's built up the most enormous following. He's British. So he's become, yes, he is. He's become something of a phenomenon. So there was a very good article in The Times.

19:47We've mentioned the newspaper a lot. I tell you what, we're going to get a proper bonus. Ever so well. Today's pod. We are both a little bit corporate, Cathy, today. I think it's fascinating. There are obvious questions to ask about whether or not you do have to be qualified to offer therapy to people. And what I liked about his stuff was quite an honest conversation about rejection. And I think in the world of relationships, dealing with rejection is incredibly difficult. I mean, it ruins some people's lives. And if you can flip it around a bit to being a pretty simple equation about if somebody didn't want to be with you did you really want to be with them is that a lifetime of happiness uh it's a conversation that i enjoy having okay well that sounds interesting so and he's coming in he is coming in right yes okay well he's coming into our upstairs studio which is really divided opinion on the station we're having to disappear up to talk sports studio at the moment because ours is being rebuilt and it will be full of zhuzh when we go back to it in september even i just went past and had a little look in the being under construction new studio and i'm no techspert but i think we're some months off well i don't think we go back until september do we i think it's all a bit up in the air yes that yes he did the man who's building the studio did seem to be quite interested in his phone well one guy was on his phone oh my gosh what a dobber inner you are no we're just saying wow wow well next time i see either of you two on your phones at work.

21:32I'm going to call in the bloke from the studio. I just hope he's not Googling how to build a radio studio. I hope he is. I want it to work. But the one upstairs at the moment, Jade and I absolutely love because it's seen better days. It reminds me of local radio. It's dark. Happy times. There's no view of the outside world. Yep. There's no... There's no space. Strip lighting or LED fandangos going down. And quite a lot of it doesn't work, which I just find reassuring. It's very reassuring. And more seriously, neither of us has had a funny headache since we went up there because, as you say, there are none of those really bright lights.

22:09So we say, don't worry, you stay on your phone in there, Roger, and take your time building the new studio. Obviously, when we go back into the new studio, we'll be full of beans. Oh, gosh, yes. Full of beans. Full of all sorts of chickpeas and other pulses, yeah. Still unclogging waists after all of these years is a fantastic email from Patricia. I can never say that. I'm going to call you Pat if that's okay. As a long-term listener to you both, right back to the version of The Old Place, I was amused yesterday to hear Jane thinking about chemical removal of hair from the shower. I never unwind the long, tangled cord of hair from the waistpipe of my bath

22:48without the thought of the chopsticks method of removal from fortunately flashing through my mind and making me smile. As I regularly fall asleep to the comforting sound of you both and the hum of the hive in my headphones chasing away the worries which otherwise would stop me sleeping. I woke this morning thinking again about that long-gone episode, putting the query, hair from a waste pipe using chopsticks, unfortunately with Fi and Jane, into a search engine. The following was what AI came back with in seconds. And it does, I mean, this is so spooky, isn't it? Details of the chopstick discussions, about 500 words about what was in that podcast.

23:21Oh, my God. It was entitled A Slightly Sticky Envelope with James Noctity. And, I mean, my apologies to Big Jim. I just can't remember interviewing James Notch at all. Neither can you. I can't remember. I mean, whether he'll remember his encounter with us, I mean, let's just own it. He might not. But no, I don't remember. So it wasn't one of our forensic investigative episodes where we discovered some new truth about somebody. And what's come out of it is a very insightful memory about chopsticks. Well, what was very funny about those podcasts back at the corporation was that we were often interviewing, let's just call them people from the old school, who had absolutely no idea what we were doing with our new, shall we say, fresh and funky approach to podcasting.

24:14I mean, it was a whole, it was an alien environment, wasn't it, to some of the old timers who we were obliged to interview. And they looked utterly, utterly baffled by the nature of our inquiries. It was just peculiar. It was deeply peculiar at times, often extremely funny. Certainly we thought it was funny. but some of the some of the older types were absolutely bamboozled by it all what is this? so maybe Jim was in that category yes possibly I'm not saying he definitely was but the domestic hack for clearing a blocked bathroom plug hole was to use those chopsticks that you get if you ask for a delivery from a certain place my motor skills are so poor I can't use chopsticks no I know, do you remember I bought you a special little It's a little clippy thing.

25:09I know, you've been ever so good over the years. It's not made a dent. I just think I need a new shower. I'm sorry. I would use it as an excuse to have a new shower because our new shower, which was forced on us by the old shower. Forced, yes. The authorities came round to Fee's house, put a shower in. No, but also because, you know, the house is on the market. Oh, yes, of course. Yes, absolutely. Still on the market. It's a slow time. high hopes for Andy Burnham so it didn't need replacing but we're all just we just feel cleaner, more hygienic, fresher more centred, it's just been a beautiful thing Jane, I couldn't recommend it highly enough and it was quite reasonable in the end.

25:54Reasonable, right Dear Jane and Fee I'm currently on a commuter train out of London writes Susanna Why is it that when there are two empty seats next to each other, women sit in the seat next to the window with their bags on their laps. I'm looking at quite a few now, but the men, however, sit on the aisle seat and put their bags on the free seat. People getting on now have to ask them if they can sit down. Why do they do this? It drives me mad. It's so rude and inconsiderate. I have in the past asked if certain pieces of luggage have a ticket. A man put his fold-up bike on the seat next to him and then had a go at me for rolling my eyes.

26:33The bike was eventually removed. The train is now packed with people standing and one man is still hogging two seats. I can't wait until I retire, says Susanna, who's probably not having her greatest day of commuting from the Sound of Things, but I do understand it can be incredibly irritating, that kind of behaviour. Although, I've got to say for you, I think women are equally guilty here because I had to ask a young lady on the Tube last night to move her bag off a seat. Why do people do that? They spread their doings across several seats on public transport. It shouldn't be allowed. No, it shouldn't be.

27:08Or just move it when it gets packed. I think fair enough if you're in a... Put your bag on the floor. It doesn't need to be... It's not a... It's not a tired bag. It's just a bag. It can be on the floor. I know. I put my bag on a seat next to me, but if the train gets busy, I take it off and I put it on my lap or the floor. Another area of conflict between the two of us. And I also like to wear it as a crossbody bag, so sometimes I don't have to move it at all. Although that comes with apparel because I bumped into one of our colleagues yesterday and didn't realise that the crossbody bag had actually pulled my dress down.

27:39I had a conversation. Mostly bra. Not very much of me. Mostly bra. Was it one of your pretty bras? No. Or one of the others? No. It was a very Monday bra. Right. One of those. No, it wasn't great. And I don't know whether or not to write an apology and draw even more attention to it or just leave it. I think I'm just going to leave it. They did well, though, because they maintained eye contact rather than... Yes, I knew who it was. Yeah, let's not go. No, he wouldn't be unpleasant. The crossbody, but I have one as well, and I used to think it was better, but I wonder sometimes whether it actually puts strain on part of your hips.

28:17What do you think? Well, it depends what's in it, doesn't it? It does depend what's in it. And sometimes if you do have a boobage, it can be unbelievably unflattering. I mean, sometimes I've seen other women with a crossbody bag where you actually wince in pain when you walk past them because it's doing a kind of dividing routine that seems to be quite cut and thrust. Right. Yes, yeah. Oh, I see, yes. So I'm not sure about that. But I just can't do... I can't do a rucksack to work. Well, I was wondering whether that might be the safest thing to do. I'm sure it is. And look at Eve's face. Oh, my word.

28:52That's a real pirate grimace. What's... You don't do a rucksack? I hate that you can't just quickly get something out of your bag. You want your AirPods, you want your pass to get into work, you want to grab your phone, swinging it around, opening it up on your chair. Oh, my God, I'll never do it again. Yeah, I'm with you, completely with you. And I'm also a little bit nervous that if I haven't zipped everything up, it's actually an invitation for people to just delve. So, no, I don't get it at all, no. Well, another area that you can get yourselves involved in, I agree with you, I'd be worried that if there was a tasty looking compartment someone would just they'd just nip in yep but I suppose the key is not to put anything I mean my old mum when she travelled to London back in the 80s and 90s when both her daughters were living in London and she was very uneasy about the capital she always put 20 quid in her bra very sensible and it was very sensible yeah yeah I quite often put my phone in my bra I find that quite handy

29:56What kind of perception did you get down there? 5G At least I would have thought

30:22you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions, requires iPhone 11 or later. At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take Take you further with tech. So you can outthink, outpace and outperform. PwC. So you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity.

31:09Harry Hardesty is a tech consultant from Newcastle. He is 53 and divorced. Last year he had four followers on TikTok. Now he has 360 ,000. That rise is due to the advice he started giving about dealing with heartbreak. Based originally on his own experience, he started making reels about dealing with rejection, picking yourself up, knowing the mistakes you made, choosing better next time, and the advice took off. Now he has a platform of his own, Dad Hugs for the Soul. You can sign up for membership. He's got a book on the way. You can even take Dad Hugs courses. He is particularly beloved by women of a certain age, perhaps, and he's here now.

31:50What could possibly go wrong? Harry, you're very welcome on the show. How are you? But am I beloved on the show? Well, yes, we're very open-minded women. Very open-minded, Harry. I'm very well, thank you. Thank you for having me. What was your relationship experience that had led you to wake up one morning and go, I just want to tell the world something about the pain that I'm feeling? It was kind of, it was more historic than that. The time that I actually created the first video was a little while after my last relationship breakup. But it was more a pattern kind of recognition thing of saying, well, this seems to be happening to me regularly.

32:31I seem to be either choosing very poorly and then ending up in situations where I feel like, and I'm sure you haven't experienced this feeling, but of trying to earn somebody's love, trying to sort of earn my place in the relationship and never feeling like I quite deserved to be in the relationship. And the relationship having an inevitable ending that was approaching from the very beginning. And being in that kind of clinging on state. Right. What did you say in that first video? I spoke about how to actually detach from somebody that you've been almost obsessed with, somebody who you've been ruminating over for years, and how to really get some practical distance from them.

33:18And I spoke about the fact that I'd been to therapy for these things a couple of times, and I'd always come out of therapy, and I am northern, you may hear the twang, and I am very practical. And I would come out of therapy and I'd sit in the car and I'd say, well, that's wonderful. I understand why I do this. I know what this is. It's okay. So this is anxious attachment. This is my attachment style. I know why I do it. I had an emotionally absent father and tried to earn his love and now I'm repeating the pattern and all of that. So I was very aware of what it all was, but it didn't really help me knowing.

33:53And I remember sitting in the car outside the therapist thinking, well that's fine but what the heck do I do like what can I actually do to feel better and so I kind of went on my own little research mission as we tend to do these days where we have access to social media watched and read as much as I could and found the kind of familiar found the stuff that I was experiencing in reels in books and everywhere else and sort of got to the point where I thought do you know what I think I can actually attack this I can do something about this And a huge component of my healing was getting to the point where not only had I this historic understanding of it that hadn't helped me, but compiling these kind of tools that would help me never do it again.

34:38So that's so interesting. So you didn't start out by just kind of, you know, blurting yourself out. you actually did thoughtfully want to get a response that would help you? It was a mix, I think. I'm an emotional man, right? Never, never, Harry, has there been a better time to be a slightly older, northern, emotionally intelligent man. They're having their moment. Are they? I hear this. But yeah, and I think I've always been sort of, I'm very interested in people. I'm always going to take the most human approach I can to a problem and having worked it was never a job for me at that point it was just me explaining what I'd been through and saying look this is how I fixed this this is how I've moved through this and I reckon you could do it as well however devastated you feel you are and I'd spent the majority of my relationship life and I mean from first girlfriend through to I was married for 14 years and it went away then because it was a very secure, calm relationship.

35:47And then the marriage ended and I went straight back into the pattern. And so the majority of my adult relationship experiences were repeating this really painful kind of pattern and being heartbroken every couple of years and understanding something was going on but not really understanding how to fix it. And then once I found that actually I can move through this, I can do stuff that's going to make me feel better, I found the stuff that the therapist hadn't given me in the office. How much of all of your relationships that didn't succeed was about you and how much was about them? I'd say about 70 % me and 30 % them.

36:24And it varies, of course, because humans are different. Right. And some of the people that I chose objectively were difficult to people to be in relationships with. But one of the biggest things that moves most of the people forward who come to me and speak to me is this accountability. and the fact that they speak to so many people who don't make you accountable, who don't say, right, okay, what can we look at in your own behaviour? What pattern could we find in your own relationship history of what you felt in your childhood? You know, were you parented consistently? Is it possible that you have an abandonment wound and you're working to be in a relationship where you experience the pain of that wound again and you try and earn the person's love?

37:09because that's kind of the situation. Right, so you're basically trying to right past wrongs through your own romantic experience. Yeah. When did you realise that you were really touching a nerve out there? Because to go from four followers on TikTok to 360 ,000 followers, it's quite a leap, Harry. Yeah, I mean, that's across all my socials, I should say. That's not just on TikTok. But yeah, it took off immediately. and it took off because it was at the beginning it was more sad it did feel more sad because obviously it was more recent for me but also because the motivation at the beginning was to explain more what I had been feeling and then the motivation became to explain how I stopped feeling it or how I moved it through me so I think there's a very real connection between what I put out and the people watching it.

38:05I don't do the thing that most social media people do, which is, right, I'm going to look where the views are. I'm going to find out where to get all the followers. So if I write a reel about, I don't know, anxious attachment, which is what I talk about. But if you choose a subject based on how many views it has, and then you create the content, there's a disconnect. People see that. Whereas if you talk about experiential stuff, honestly, and have no fear of what's going to come back at you. So people just immediately kind of align with it and say, oh, yeah, wow, OK, you've definitely been where I am.

38:41And that's what I get the most is this kind of, oh, you've definitely felt this. Are you targeting women or are you targeting men? I don't target anyone. Everybody. Yeah, they follow me. It's 91 % women, my followers. And I think that's more their behaviour than mine, I'm very proud to say. So at the beginning, it was about 40, 60, male, female. And what I found is that between the genders, what happens is women take more practical action. I mean, in most things, right? But certainly in emotional things, what seems to happen is when women are bereft, heartbroken, and in that phase that's just happened, where the relationship's just ended and they feel there's no way forward, what do I do?

39:25That question, what do I do, is a serious question, where they're actually looking for steps, things to do. And the men that I speak to take it much more kind of as this kind of personal injury that takes longer for them to get past the whole woe is me part, the whole I am destroyed, I can't get out of this. And although I have had, I used to do one-to-one, so I've had male clients who I've sort of walked through this process and got them out the other side and they've been fabulous and fantastic. the women are much more take some direct action let's fix this thing do you worry that you don't have qualifications have there been moments when you thought i'm with someone who's vulnerable and i actually don't really know what to do about it no um i did at the beginning uh when i first sort of raised the idea that i was doing this everyone around me of course said well you're not a therapist you can't talk about this stuff and i said yeah of course and i lead with that i do open with that and say, look, I'm not a therapist.

40:24This is experience. This is what I've been through. And this is how I recommend you deal with it. I should say as well that I have about 15 ,000 therapist followers who recommend me to people, but also, and one of the new products that I've built, I'm not plugging it, but they have, that has over a dozen psychotherapists, psychologists, sleep doctors, all sorts of things who help people get through this breakup process, this heartbreak process. But actually, it's not about me sort of espousing theory and saying, these are the things that you should do. It's more about me saying, well, this is what happened to me.

41:02This is what I felt. And this is how I fixed it. So what are the basic lessons that you're trying to pass on? You've talked about practical ways of helping yourself after a breakup can you tell us about some of those so the first thing is to force reality and this is definitely the northerner in me but it is many many times people come to me and say i've just lost the love of my life they've just dumped me they are my perfect person my life is not worth living now i'm destroyed and my response to that is it sounds a little glib but it the first part is well they're not the love of your life if they've done that to you first of all that's not your person.

41:46Your person doesn't do that. But secondly, it's kind of this idea that building your emotional home in someone else and providing that person with the opportunity to then make you homeless is a dangerous way to live. And it's a dangerous way to live in every area of your life. You know, offloading this enormous amount of responsibility for your emotional and mental health to somebody else is always dangerous. And the difference that people don't seem to see, But the difference between secure people, emotionally secure people, and people who are less secure, isn't that the secure people feel safe all the time.

42:23It's that they recognize that that person could walk out of their life at some point and they would not be utterly destroyed by it. And I learned that by being utterly destroyed by it. You do have some advice as well just about how to treat yourself in very kind of micro levels. So tell us a bit about that. Jane and I are probably going to be incapable of following this, but it's about looking at ourselves and what. You can do this in a mirror in a Bordeaux hotel room. Bordeaux? Why have you brought that up? Get some eye contact. I watch you, I follow you. But, yeah, the idea is that amongst a number of things that happen, seemingly to my audience, which is women in midlife and beyond, and people who are perimenopausal, menopausal, who've experienced a long relationship and then often a breakup and then found themselves in a place they didn't expect to be.

43:20They've never been asked certain questions, which are things like, very basic things like, what is it that you really like outside of relationships? What do you really enjoy? That's the first thing. But also part of that advice that you've just sort of mentioned is getting eye contact with yourself in a mirror properly and being kind to yourself. And that is already making... I can see the discomfort on your face. And for most people... She's just very short-sighted apart from anything else. Is your mirror dirty? No, it's... Jane and I work together too much. I look in the mirror, I see her. Oh, dear.

43:55Yeah, OK, not that one then. But, yeah, the idea that, you know, a kindness given by yourself, it sounds so twee, right? And it's the same as, you know, when you mention things like breathwork to people and they sort of flinch and think, oh come on but actually well what is it what is it harry what is breath work well breath work is just breathing in a deliberate way that actually calms you that calms your nervous system a bit and anything that relates to that i used to really sort of turn away from and say that's just not to me that can't be but these things happen in your body you know breakup happens in your body oh yeah no and there are physical impacts no doubt about it physiological impacts i should say just a very quick question I mean you've mentioned parents and the role of parents I know this is not an original question but at what age really must we stop blaming our parents for the way we behave I love that yeah I love that question um very often people who come to you who are in emotional pain will roll that out first will say oh you know I had this terrible upbringing or more often because um of my female audience they love to provide excuses for the partner that's just been abhorrent to them.

45:04So quite often I'll hear, oh, but he had a terrible childhood. You know, his dad was really awful to him. And I think, well, yeah, my dad wasn't great to me, but I didn't end up doing that to people. And I think the question of when do you have to take responsibility as an adult for stuff that happened to you as a child and say, yeah, that's the past. It's pretty young, I think. I think early in your relationship experiences, you're going to have to sit up straight and say, do you know what, this is me, this is my behaviours because otherwise that crutch can follow you for the rest of your life.

45:37There are people in their 70s that I have spoken to who are still saying, you know, well, it's because of this that happened to me and that that happened to me. And absolutely, those things are valid and awful. Some awful things happen to people in their childhood and as they grow up. But also, there is a life to be lived and there's space to be taken up in the world and that's everybody's right. and as well as that right you have this responsibility of saying do you know what i owe it to myself actually to be my own parent to be my own adult now and a lot of advice around the breakup thing is is about parenting yourself and instead of writing letters to people who hurt you and writing paragraphs of this is what you've done and this is why you do it you've done it if you start writing that stuff to yourself then you're kind of parenting the situation yourself you can read it back and say yeah actually maybe I've got a part in this very thoughtful messages from our listeners this afternoon Janie says as a trainee counsellor I wish Harry had seen the kind of therapist who offers exploration of the how as well as the why it's so great that he is now compassionately sharing his experience and knowledge top human and Steve says learning about attachment theory has been without doubt one of the most helpful things in my life following separation and then divorce three years ago I was in a difficult place and dating was a minefield.

46:55Attachment theory helped me understand myself better than anything else. It has real world application. It helps you understand what presses your relationship buttons. I would encourage anyone, whether in a stable relationship or not, to look into it. And Will says he sounds like an over-emoting, over-therapised ball. There's always one. There's usually more than one. so you've done very well. I'll show you my inbox. He does ask the question, though, are you still friends with your ex-wife? Is that... Yes. Yes. There you go. And Will says, I would say that that will tell you plenty about him. Thanks.

47:32It just has. I'm not friends, I should say, with the ex-girlfriends that I had the unhealthy attachments with. Good. And I don't recommend that people are... Have you heard from any of them? Oh, yeah. Recently, since you... Yeah, quite recently. OK. Not this morning, but yeah, fairly recently. That's interesting. That's book number two. Harry, I wish we had more time, but we're out of time. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. So people can follow you. Not by your name, though. So the platform and the thing is? Well, the easiest way to find me is dadhooksfree.com and there's some free stuff on there rather than having to follow the whole thing.

48:07But yeah, go to dadhooksfree.com and you'll find some free guides and bits and bobs that I've given away. Harry Hardesty, and you can find him on your social media platforms. We would love to hear from you about this. I truly value the work of very decent therapists I think they save lives I think they're incredibly canny people they've put so much time and effort in and apart from anything else Jane they spend their lives listening to people's deepest darkest fears I admire them for being able to do that day after day after day not many people can but equally there are some moments aren't there in everybody's life where I bet you've received wisdom from somebody that surpasses what you might find in a therapy session.

48:51So is one better than the other? I don't know. I mean, I doubt it. But some people carry with them an incredible wisdom that's enormously helpful. And that's what Harry has tapped into. So we'd love your thoughts about it. Our guest tomorrow is a retired doctor called Richard Coker, who has said some quite controversial things about death and in particular assisted dying. I should say his book actually covers all sorts of very complex areas including quite a big section on the link between death and sex and there's quite a lot of, I'm going to say quite difficult material in his book but what has drawn people's attention in particular is his belief that all, and this is a direct quote, all good doctors have assisted dying is what he says.

49:42So Richard Coker is our guest tomorrow.

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