Don't worry... he's still warm

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2:13Are we on? We are, yeah. Welcome to Thursday's Off-Air with Jane and Fee with Jane and Hannah. Now, Hannah's had a big, big week. we should just say we're in a different studio for anoraks. So there may be some technical issues that maybe will sound a bit better or worse. What do you think? I think we sound worse. Oh. And I've got a bit to pick with you, actually, Jane. Oh. Hannah from Hartlepool, is it? Yeah, well, it all gets confused. I'm going to start telling people you're an Everton fan. See how you like that. Well, I was going to read a nice email out about you. By the way, Fee's coming back.

2:48Thank God. but I think she's rejoining us a week on Tuesday yes yeah that's right isn't it that is right but you and I are both here next week we are we're keeping it afloat just us too we're bobbing along absolutely no assistance we've also had quite a busy day to day as well we have we've been stretched through and it didn't help that I got you in half an hour early only to be kicked out by Talkspot yeah not to name names you know when I think back on my glittering audio career and to be booted out of the studio by Talk Sport, Hannah, it's unthinkable. But it's happened. Anyway, I will read out the nice email about Hannah.

3:26It's headlined, Huddersfield is in my heart. Dear Jane and Hannah, I write to say how lovely Hannah's voice is. It's taken me back, stirs all my memories of Huddersfield. It is Huddersfield, isn't it? Who to be a, who to be a Terrier. Right. What is Terrier? So that's our mascot from the football team. Huddersfield Town? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah, Terrier. OK, great. In 1967, after completing my SRN, I started my midwifery training at the Princess Royal Maternity Hospital. Hannah says Jennifer probably won't know this hospital, but I'm pretty sure her mum and her nan will. Well, my grandma was a nurse, actually, so she probably definitely will have.

4:11She definitely will, yeah. It was built back in 1928, and it's a grade two listed building, oh no longer a maternity unit. It was the birthplace though of thousands of local babies well before the NHS of course. I remember seeing records of women who paid a shilling a week for antenatal care and delivery. Many of the midwives I worked with and who readily passed on all their expertise had trained before the NHS was established and that was in 1948 wasn't it. One particular midwife who was probably in her 60s when I worked with her regaled me with stories of her early career as a district midwife in the remote rural parts of the Huddersfield area initially on a push bike and then on a moped going out alone in the pitch dark god you forget that that actually happened i was very proud and honored to say i eventually became the senior nursing officer there in charge of the entire hospital well look jennifer we're amazing we're amazed that you're listening to this thank you very much for that and um well done to you for a fantastic career Huddersfield was also the place where I met Brian my late partner so it has very special emotional attachments um Jenny thank you very much for that email and I'm sorry it's not Hartlepool it's Huddersfield it always was Huddersfield proud home of the Terriers and I'm sorry I know it is okay now you're making me feel bad I thought you were gonna thought you were gonna stand by it and you know set up some Liverpool Huddersfield rivalry I haven't got the energy at the end of this week I really haven't missed this I should I'd say we have some cracking guests next week.

5:40It's just worth saying there's no one else in the media world who next week, and I'm so lucky and I do appreciate it, who will interview former Liverpool and England star Michael Owen. And we've also on the programme next week got Jay Rayner, who does all kinds of wonderful things for another little-known speech radio network here in the UK. Also, someone who knows a lot about food and is very good at writing about it. and we've got Miriam Margulies and we've got one of the greatest British novelists, Kate Atkinson. I know. And what else do I want to say? Oh, yes, we've got a guest in this episode and it probably won't be easy listening, but by God, it's important that we pay attention to this.

6:20And our guest today is a phenomenal woman called Jacqueline Dolsky. She has worked for quite a long time in Afghanistan for a German charity, an NGO called Welt Hungerhilfe. and it's just worth saying that Jacqueline really does know about Afghanistan. She knows about the women of Afghanistan. She knows what they're currently putting up with and she'll also tell us about, well, the long-term impact on a country where half the population aren't, I mean, this is just incredible. I can hardly believe I'm saying it, aren't really allowed out. I think they're currently not allowed really to make any noise, to meet friends, to look out of windows and that's way before we get to talking about how they can't work so they can't train even and I'm you know that wouldn't be a word I'd normally use in areas like midwifery and medicine where they're clearly clearly going to be needed so this is a desperate situation it does make you despair but that's no reason to ignore it I think we have to keep talking about Afghanistan so five years of the Taliban and their diabolical impact on women and girls and families in that country So that's coming up later in this podcast.

7:33But you did say earlier in the week that you had an important mission. This is on Tuesday, Hannah, and you were off to Downing Street. Now, you didn't meet Andy Burnham, but much more significantly, you did meet, I think, probably one of the longest serving members of staff currently known in British politics. And that is? Larry the Cat. So tell me about that. So, yeah, we went in and I was posing for my photo just as somebody opened the door, very embarrassing. So I had to quickly pause photo opportunity. Can I just say, it's impossible to get to the front door of 10 Downing Street and not do that photograph.

8:11Fee and I did it. I had to do it on the way out. Oh, OK. It's not the same, is it? No, it is not the same on the way out. Anyway, carry on. Anyway, so we went through and then you've got to put your phones away, straight away. but lo and behold, above the phone locker, Larry the cat. Actual Larry? Yeah, actual Larry and me being the Gen Z I am, whip out my phone to take a photo. Well, that didn't go down well. So we set off to a bad start, got a little slap on the wrist for that. Okay, so you can't use your phone within the confines of the building? No. So then I put my phone down underneath Larry and then he was curled up and facing the opposite direction and I did just think for a second, is he alive?

8:55God, I mean... Is he breathing? To be the person who kills that animal, I wouldn't... It would be just my luck. Oh, no, don't bring it on yourself. Look, we can't reassure people, Larry is still with us. Yes, he is still with us. I gave him a stroke and he was fine. And after the very important meeting, Anna Mahailova, our political editor, let the people we were in the meeting with I know that I was concerned about Larry's state of living. Yeah. And then I, for some reason, chose to reassure them by going, don't worry, though, I touched him and he was warm. Right, you just felt you had to say that.

9:31I don't know where it came from. And I thought, why have you just said that, Hannah? This was a very serious meeting and you'd done very well up until this point. I don't know why I said that. I'm sorry. OK. Right, well, you've got some shreds of dignity left. We're very proud of you. And I know that Fee Glover has the terrible theory that Larry... Has been replaced. Yeah, has been replaced. But you didn't detect any of that. I mean, Larry is old. He's very old. He had some grey furs. Yes. Furs. Some grey hairs. Hairs, furs, whatever, yeah. I actually got my first grey hair the other day. Oh, did you?

10:05Yeah. Well, it's not... It's deep in hair. It is, okay. I really like the colour of it, but the texture is different, which I'm not sure about because I have very curly hair, So if I have suddenly lots of straight grey ones poking out the top of my head, I think that might have been strange. Just to remind everybody of your current age is... 24. Yeah, be off with you. We're not interesting. We're not going to hear any more of this. We're just not. Now, we were talking the other day about how tough it is for young people trying to get into work right now. And Sue in London has chipped in with this.

10:36I've been listening with sadness about the young people who, despite having degrees, are struggling to find employment. I'm a 62-year-old professional, and one of the main issues, I believe, is that our government insists that we work until we're 67 before we retire. Well, you don't have to, do you? So it's just that that's when most of us will get the state pension these days. That's certainly when I'll get the state pension at 67. But it is rising, so some people listening won't get it until they're 68. And I suspect some other people listening won't get it, Hannah, until you're in your 80s anyway, or 90s.

11:12Sue says I work in local government and when I joined the senior officers did retire at 60 and this freed up posts for graduates and therefore right across the country local authorities were constantly recruiting. Sadly, what with the cutbacks, the number of staff has deteriorated, but also the ageing workforce means young people aren't getting a chance to start their professions in the way that we did. In my own profession, we have turned to apprentices, and I've got to say, we do currently have three amazing young apprentices who joined us after they graduated, and they've given the whole team just a new lease of life.

11:48They're so committed, hardworking and professional, and they are a credit to their generation. however my main point remains that if we as a country insist on increasing retirement ages we will continue to have fewer positions for our young people well I guess that's true Sue who says thank you for your wonderful ramblings there isn't a day that you don't make me lol and I am grateful Sue we're grateful to you too thank you for being a part of whatever this is the reason that retirement ages have increased is just that there are so many of us living so long that no country could afford the state pension for as many people as would qualify for it if we were allowed to quit and get it at 60.

12:30At least I'm pretty sure that's the reason. Anyway, you don't even think about retirement, do you, Hannah? I mean, do you honestly... Have you got a pension? I think so. Money does go out for it, and I've definitely not opted out of it, but it is... Don't. Yeah. Don't. There's so much controversy around pensions, isn't there? Well, there is, but if I had one little bit of wisdom to impart to you and your cohort from my vantage point at the other end of things it's actually not a penny saved is going to be wasted honestly so I didn't do it early enough and and I just think if you have an opportunity to get a company pension just stick with it sometimes I do think about living for the day though and I know that's irresponsible to think that way but like you know there are so many pressures I think I think for young people as well there are so many financial pressures and the cost of living is obviously horrendous and you can't go out and have fun like we used to be able to sometimes you know you don't you don't know if you'll live until that long not to get bleak but it does cross my mind when i see it go out and i think oh i could have done that this month actually yeah oh you could have gone out what is it they say you could have gone out for a matcha for a matcha yeah or a matcha cocktail you could have bad avocado on toast.

13:45I know, not the avocado on toast. But yeah, I don't know. I know the pension is clever though and I'm sticking with it. I'm definitely putting something in there. Yeah, okay. Right. Well, I'm reassured. Up to a point. Your discussion on Wednesday about the current jobs market struck a chord with me, says Sophie. My daughter's 22. She's got a first-class journalism degree from University of Sheffield and she's passed her NCTJ. That is the qualification for journalists isn't it yeah she's currently working now on the shop floor in our local Lidl her main frustration is that jobs that class themselves as so-called entry level are asking for two years of experience now this means that there's no such thing as an entry level job now or it is incredibly rare my daughter is funny personable hard-working she'd be a fabulous employee if she were able to get her foot in the door anywhere a successful journalist would you have any advice for her her passion is radio journalism so I thought it would be pertinent to pick your brains as your discussion is so relevant to her situation I have to say from just from my own experience Sophie if there's any way your daughter can just get herself into a radio station and I have to say not expect to be paid and that's the problem isn't it it is I mean if you haven't it may be somewhere in the area where you live and you don't say here where it is you do live all i know is that you've got a little well i've got a little and i'm in there quite regularly um because their manuka honey by the way is excellent um and much else besides i've spoken before about my love of their bread um but i appreciate this isn't what your daughter wants to be doing although um it's good that she's doing something rather than absolutely nothing at all plus she's earning money so maybe she could afford or you could afford for her to work for nothing in a local radio station but you tell me hannah is it possible to walk into somewhere and just get work or get a chance just to have a look i think it's one of those things that everyone gets into it differently differently and it's just impossible because yeah i completely relate to that the two years of experience well who who has two years of experience you can't magic it out of nowhere um and the standards are just insane and it's luck actually i think in the end and people say oh no don't don't belittle your own efforts no it is luck if you get that foot in yeah and then once you're there you do have to be good sophie you never know i mean perhaps your daughter could apply for one of the apprenticeships here definitely recommend those why not why not give it a whirl i mean you just don't know you've got i mean the only reason i'm sitting here now talking cobblers some of the time is that i wrote letters to radio stations in the march of 1987 and i wrote letters if i hadn't written those letters and you know what anna really weirdly i went for the first time since that day in 1987 I went past the post box I posted the letters in back home in Crosby the only the other day the week before last and it was so weird going past that post it sounds idiotic to talk about a post box that changed your life but that bloody thing actually did it's still there it's in the same place and I honestly I felt quite shivery thinking what if I hadn't written that letter or those letters or what if I hadn't posted them until the week after I would have missed an opportunity that happened to coincide with my letter arriving at a radio station How did you actually go from writing the letter and sending it to being Jane Garvey?

17:12What was the time between them? Thank you so much for taking the interest I do think about it though How did you become Jane Garvey? I already was, I haven't changed my name I mean I probably should to get some of the stuff off my back Well no, because It is a long story and you don't need to hear it. But basically, one local radio station in a tiny, in Worcester, took a chance on me and gave me some experience. They allowed me to work there. I earned 60 quid a week, but I was on housing benefits, so I could just about make it work. And I remember I had to spend, I think I had about£17.80 to spend.

17:51But I was 23. My interests were carbohydrates and news. and news, I didn't really have any, and music. And in 1987, I could just about make that work. I couldn't have done it if I hadn't been on housing benefit. So, you know, whenever anybody talks about benefits, I'm sometimes aware that, you know what, if I hadn't had that benefit, I wouldn't be here now. And, yeah, it's just one of those things. So I'm very grateful. So I did, I mean, it was one of those jobs that led to other jobs that led to other jobs, and that was that. But, you know, I've loved doing it. But you can't get in it without a certain amount of luck, as you say, and pester power.

18:32Yeah, pester power. And also dealing with rejection as well. And learning to... Yeah, absolutely. Hard. Oh, God, it's miserable. And it is really miserable. Even after Jane Garvey became Jane Garvey, I still didn't get jobs I wanted. Yeah. God, I can't believe I've just talked about myself. Don't ever include that in any kind of highlights reel, what I've just said. Oh, OK. No. I mean, we all have to learn to deal with professional rejection. but it's easier to deal with when you've already established yourself in a career you quite like. It's as miserable as sin when you're 22, 23, 24 and you just cannot get a foothold.

19:07You just start to feel like absolute crap, don't you? Let's bring in another listener who says, love the show Steve, it's how they end it, thank you. I want to add my voice to the positive conversation around apprenticeships. both of my children's A-level results days will live with me forever. So much so that I actually have to avoid the news coverage every year as it just brings back memories of all the stress. And this isn't discussed much, but the stress for parents on these days, Hannah, it's honestly, it's far worse than when you did it yourself. Oh, really? Yeah, do you appreciate this?

19:45Well, I was more nervous for my GCSEs, I think. By the time the A-level, I mean, I was in COVID for the A-level, so. Oh, yeah. So it was all a bit, I didn't have to do them. Yeah, my youngest daughter didn't do them either. She did quite well, though. Oh, that's good. Well, yeah, she did, because as her sister always points out, she didn't have to do the exams. Yeah, I know. That's the interesting thing. They do sometimes slightly bicker about their A-level results because one who didn't do the exams did do a bit better. Oh, really? I guess that's difficult, isn't it? Well, not really. You just have to accept.

20:17They don't matter anyway, do they? Once you get to the next stepping stone, nobody cares what your A-levels were. No. But it's the biggest thing in the world in that moment. And it feels so defining, doesn't it? I mean, I have to say, on behalf of your generation, you've had a tough time. I mean, nobody would have thought when you were little growing up that you would be doing the most significant public exams of your life during a pandemic. Yeah. I mean, who knew that was coming your way? Not my way, not my generation's way, but your generation's way. That was hard. Well, it was lovely, though, because I was just sunbathing and eating little kebabs and drinking Aperol spritzes.

20:56In Huddersfield. Yeah. Right. Let's go back to our emailer. Both of my children's A-level results days will live with me forever. Our eldest was a straight-A student, wanted to go to medical school, but didn't get the grades and was absolutely devastated. It seemed that everybody else had got what they needed and we were just at sea. She got into an accountancy course through clearing. It was a bit of a gamble. Thankfully, she took to it and she's absolutely flown. But by God, it was the most awful time. Our second child had a great time in sixth form, but didn't work as hard as he could or should have done.

21:29We were convinced apprenticeships were the right route for him, rather than three great years at uni learning how to party, even harder at great expense to come out with an average, unspecific degree. He actually got better results than we were expecting. We did have a bit of a wobble at that point, but he had been successful in getting chosen for a place on an engineering apprenticeship and decided he still would do that. I have to say I could feel judgment from other parents and family members who felt university was the only route. I just used to laugh it off and say we were conducting a social experiment with our children.

22:04Eight years later he's still at the company and they're paying for his degree. I've got a background in recruitment and I cannot stress enough degrees are not an automatic path to the job you want and have no substitute for a work ethic and work experience in any setting to the parents of children who didn't get what they expected you are not the only ones although it can very much feel like it right yes i i appreciate what you're saying there and i i know that um yeah these these results days are deeply deeply traumatizing for a lot of people should we just talk about teddies let's just yeah let's talk about teddies um jane and hannah's conversations uh turned to old teddy bears the other day and i had to send you a picture of my teddy seen here wearing a dress knitted for him by my granny brown let me just show you that i mean the teddy it's not the i'll just be honest with you correspondent scary uh justine um it's it's a it's a pug ugly teddy you've got yourself there uh modeling of what you call that a lime green smock dress I mean the dress is lovely actually but I'm not sure about the teddy to be honest really battered I'll leave you and your descriptive powers to tell listeners about his general condition, well do you know what I'm going to have to do, I'm just going to have to take a picture of my not especially attractive teddy and bring it in next week, we can perhaps include that in a fiesta of unattractive stuffed things, no this looks, well I was going to say it looks much loved It just looks as though it's been hurled about and bashed to smithereens.

23:41What have you been doing with it, Justine? For heaven's sake. It looks like its eyes are kind of melting off the face, doesn't it? Yes, it does. It looks as though it's enjoyed the heatwave, let's put it that way. Teddy was given to me when I was a tiny baby and I celebrate my 60th this year, so he has been knocking about quite a long time. Unlike Jane's teddy, he doesn't live in my bedroom, but in the spare room. I'll never throw him out. There's just something special about keeping a gift given to you at birth. It's a connection with the past and people long gone. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly why I'm not going to chop mine out either.

24:11Teddy has lived with me in Spain for the last 35 years plus. And I'm writing this while waiting for the air conditioning to cool down my bedroom. It is 11 p.m. here and 33 degrees outside. So, but yeah, I was right about the heat wave. So apart from being a very threadbare Ted, he's done well to survive the Spanish summers. Oh, and San Jose, St. Joseph, there are hundreds in Spain alone. So I can only imagine how many there must be in other Spanish-speaking countries. So you were right. I was right. Yeah, it really is the most likely name for a place, San Jose. Right. Sue says, a recent feature on your lovely podcast reminded me of two of my favourite toys belonging to my eldest nephew.

24:55He'd learned the words to the Christmas carol Infant Holy, Infant Lowly. Do you know that one? I can't say I do actually. No, I don't know that one. And subsequently called a favourite bear Little Knowing due to its small size. That must be another part of the lyric. Anyway, Little Knowing's regular companion and bosom pal, and this is fantastic, was a violently coloured crimson rabbit secured from a church fete who was christened Red Robbo. Now you won't know Red Robbo, will you? No. No. But as Sue reminds us, this was the trade unionist Derek Robinson, who was featured heavily in the media at the time and my nephew though apolitical at the age of three had heard frequent references to red robo on the news and decided it was a lovely name so it's interesting because when this conversation began with fee um it was there were quite a few of these instances where kids just heard things on the news like alan ball there was a teddy called alan ball no one knew why right so it's interesting to know how much kids take things in isn't it Yeah, absolutely.

25:58Well, actually, yeah, my eldest daughter, one of the first things she said in the back of the car was Hans Blix. Hans Blix was the UN weapons inspector. Oh, my gosh. But his name was always on news bulletins. Yeah. And she suddenly, out of nowhere, in the back of the car, a little voice went, Hans Blix, Hans Blix. Oh, my gosh, it's just crazy. It's absolutely, she still sounds like that even now. And this, actually, we're just back to A-levels, but this is just worth mentioning from Chris in Manchester. I mean it's a relatively long story I hope you don't mind me paraphrasing Chris but essentially Chris didn't quite get the mark they wanted in the exam they needed to pass to move on to something else they thought they wanted to do but anyway she says or he says I don't know 21 years later I do think about that crossroads in my life very often I retook that paper that January I smashed it I got 117 marks out of a possible 120 I'd built up some funds by working for a year and then I went on to meet lifelong friends at uni the following September you see sometimes the fickle finger of fate is just poking you in a slightly different direction I think that is true and not to get woo woo but I think that's what I meant earlier when I said it's just your vehicle to your next thing isn't it absolutely getting to a certain destination that you think is right for you and it just the thing is though it can just feel wretched if you just feel but yeah on that day it feels horrible yeah yeah yeah it really does uh for me i can honestly say the whole thing worked out for the best and plenty of people tried to tell me that it would i just didn't listen i was so devastated nothing anyone could have said would have made any difference at the time it felt like a terrible injustice my heart does go out to anyone who's ever found themselves in a similar situation you feel so powerless time is a great healer but it's so hard to believe that at the time so anyone you've got someone in your life who's just having a really miserable time at the moment just just remind remind them of that if you possibly can and we're probably going to have a bit of a wiggle on aren't we but oh yes allergies because earlier in the week the great gabby rosslyn talked to me about the joy of pets by the way i've suddenly realized how lovely it is to have a cat who is quite affectionate as dora can be but who's also had her claws done so these days when she clambers onto my knee as she can do in the evening in fact almost always does at some point in the evening it's like it's like giving it's like having a little cloud on your lap so when you say having her claws done what do you mean she's had them clipped so just clipped or like take it because sometimes i can take them out they haven't taken them out just checking no she might have had a problem i'm not insinuating i mean no Do you think I am?

28:42Actually, the vet has been in touch to ask for feedback and whether Dora would like to supply feedback as to the quality of her visit. When my daughter rang to make the appointment, they said, what's Dora's surname? She did say, oh, it's Garvey. And I thought, yeah, good. Not the name of ex-husband, thank you very much. She's very much a Garvey. That's what Dora is. I'm just writing to confirm that you can indeed be allergic to animal saliva as Gabby Roslyn's husband is I'm also allergic to it and I've been hospitalized by a cat so it can be very serious okay um Claire every day's a school day and um I'm absolutely that's awful that you're allergic to animal saliva and that it made you so poorly you had to go to hospital I'm so sorry to hear that i really am um gross ablutions we're currently on holiday in the southwest of france says anonymous a young woman on the table next to us just changed her baby's dirty nappy right next to our table i had to say seriously no embarrassment just a defiant look back so i thought of you really did put my partner off his chocolate fondant says yeah well you know you knew It would, wouldn't it?

30:01You knew something like that was coming, didn't you? And let's end with this. Catching up with the pod in bed early this morning and heard another listener, also called Sarah, mentioning sitting next to people flossing on a plane. It did remind me of travelling by tube into central London in the first COVID lockdown. That's a couple of mentions for COVID in this podcast. It's like a throwback, isn't it? I was masked up even though the carriage was empty. It did really feel scary in those early days. while a man got on, sat a few seats away from me across the aisle and proceeded to pull his mask down and start flossing his teeth.

30:35God's sake, I was furious. This would be a disgusting thing to do at the best of times, but to do it during a pandemic of an airborne virus seemed so incredibly selfish. When he'd finished, he got out a bottle of water and I promised myself that if he rinsed and spat, I would get up and I would deck him. Thankfully, he didn't. I wonder what gesture Jane would have made to him in this situation. It's probably not a good idea to wonder what I'd have done, actually. It probably wouldn't have been pretty.

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32:55That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. This month marks five years since the fall of Kabul and the return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan. Now, in the years since, the freedoms of women and girls in Afghanistan have been progressively eroded. They've been shut out of secondary education and universities. There are also restrictions on work, on travel and access to public spaces like parks. More than 2.6 million Afghan girls have now been denied a secondary education, according to UNICEF. We're going to talk now to Jacqueline Dolsky, who's director of programmes at Welt Hunger Hilfer, which is an NGO working in Afghanistan.

33:47Jackie has been there since the Taliban, since before the Taliban returned to power in 2021 and has worked closely with Afghan women. We're going to hear the voices of some of her female colleagues in a moment or two. But Jacqueline, first of all, good afternoon from London. How are you? Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I'm good. I mean, very glad to have a chance to speak about Afghanistan. Well, it's really important that we do give the subject some time and some space, because I'm afraid that months do go by and we don't consider the plight of women and girls in Afghanistan. So thankfully, we are doing exactly that today.

34:25So tell me, were you in Kabul as it fell to the Taliban five years ago? No, so actually I spent the first two years working in the northeast of Afghanistan before the Taliban takeover. And then I returned to Kabul a few months later. Right. And what was it like when you went back there?

34:52it was it was a lot to digest i mean looking back during the republic in kabul and other cities we saw genuine progress that afghan women and girls fought extraordinarily hard for so for many the the rollback in rights and freedoms over the past five years have been absolutely devastating and it's been a really painful experience seeing women and girls try to cope with this loss of space that they fought so hard to create for themselves. And in case anybody listening doesn't know much about the organization you work for, Welt Hunger Hilfer, just tell us a little bit about it. Yeah, so we've been working in Afghanistan for decades, and we deliver both humanitarian and longer term programs.

35:41So we work with communities to address hunger. We support livelihoods and we help communities cope with the impacts of climate change. And where else in the world have you worked? So I've also worked in Syria as well as Tajikistan and India, but a huge chunk of my career has actually been in Afghanistan. OK, well, we'll talk much more in a moment or two. But first of all, let's just take time to listen to some of the voices of some of Jacqueline's colleagues at the NGO she works for. Here they are describing for the first time how their lives have changed over the past five years. I would like to thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to share my experience.

36:34I hope my voice can help people better understand the situation. I'm 30 years old and I work for an NGO in Afghanistan. I live with a big family. I'm the only person who supports my family financially. Actually, I feel lucky because I still have a job. Many women don't have this opportunity anymore. But even with a job, life is not easy. I don't have the same peace of mind that I had five years ago. sometimes when I go to the office I always feel worried because I don't know what may happen there is always stress and fear and I don't feel mentally safe five years ago the girls in my family were going to school and university they had many dreams and hopes for their future and now they stay at home because they cannot continue their education and they also don't have the chance to work.

37:33This is very painful for me because I see them every day. If they had continued their studies, many of them would have finished school or university by now. But instead, they have lost five important years of their lives. Today, they feel disappointed and have little hope for the future because they don't know what tomorrow will bring. And it is not only my family. For the last five years, many girls in Afghanistan have not been able to continue their education. Because of this, we already have fewer female doctors as well. If this continues, I am afraid that in a few years, we may not have enough female doctors in our country.

38:22This will make life much harder for women and girls who need health care from female doctors. and also because the borders are often closed sometimes it's difficult to enough to find enough medicine and one of the example is my father because he needs medicine every month but many people cannot get the medicine they need and this makes life even harder for me the hardest thing is seeing women and girls lose their education their jobs and their place in society They had so many dreams and wanted to help their families and their country. I really hope that one day they will have this opportunity again.

39:09I'm a woman aged 23 and living in both provinces. At present, the situation has become relatively more difficult for women because our rights to education and employment have been restricted. Under these circumstances, it has become difficult for us to continue our education and work properly. Over the past five years, there have been significant changes in our lives. Many women who previously worked and had jobs are now unemployed. The number of available projects has decreased considerably, and women have very limited opportunities to work. Even women who were previously employed by NGOs, organizations or government offices now face restrictions in accessing these workplaces.

40:06At the same time, the number of projects within organizations has decreased. Young girls are also facing serious challenges as they are unable to attend school or continue employment, education opportunities for personal and professional development. I see the situation becoming even worse in the future. There is very little hope and we have lost our hope of being able to build a better future for ourselves. I would like to share about my experience as a Afghan woman and working mother over the first five years. As per my experience, one of the biggest changes has been the restriction on women's real lives.

40:49For example, when traveling or moving outside the home, women can face requirements due to having mahram, which can make even simple activity, maybe sometimes the work-related activity. There are also much strict expectations about clothing and covering the whole body, and women how to be very careful about how they dress and move in public. For me, this changes how we fit not only my freedom of moving, but also my sense of independence. As a working woman, I sometimes have to plan very carefully before traveling to the office, or maybe sometimes adding the field activity. It can also be difficult when a mahram is not available.

41:37At the same time, I have seen Afghan women showing incredible strength and resilience. These women continue to work, support their family, learn new skills, and contribute to their community despite these challenges. The hardest part of life for me is seeing educated and talented women and girls losing opportunity because of the restrictions they face. As a mother, I also worry about the future of my children and the opportunity that will be available to them. Despite everything I remind Hopewell, I hope Afghan women will continue to have the opportunity to work, learn more safely and contribute to society.

42:28We want to live with dignity, support our family and build a better future for our children. Overall situation of women in Afghanistan today, it's too difficult. We have lost our income, our economic independence, but the loss goes to the fore. Behind that, we used to be active members of society. We had responsibility. We contributed to the community. We had to rule and place in society. Today, that rule has been taken away from us. And gradually, we have been pushed into the isolation. We feel we are alive, but we cannot do anything. Something we are forced to accept, even though we never chose this life for ourselves.

43:13Perhaps one of the most painful consequences is the loss of our identity for many years. We no longer have the same space, recognition or sense of being in the society. Well, we thank those very brave Afghan women for just giving us a little bit of an insight into their lives in Afghanistan since the Taliban took over five years ago and just the incredible restrictions put upon them. You're listening to Times Radio and I'm talking to Jacqueline Dolsky, who's director of programmes at the NGO Welt Hunger Hilfer. She's been in Afghanistan now for over five years. Jacqueline, it is just worth saying that those women who were very brave to speak to us are relatively privileged because they are allowed to work outside the home.

44:04Yeah, exactly. I mean, there has been this loss of employment among girls and this is something that they're really struggling to grapple with. And I think they acknowledge their privilege and they're very appreciative that they have employment. But still, the situation is extremely difficult. Can you explain? I think one of the speakers towards the end there talked about the need for a haram, which is what a male companion who must escort you everywhere. Is that correct? no exactly so now for example um i mean afghan women are still absolutely fundamental to our work um but to be able to deliver programs uh they need to be accompanied by a male relative and that's a major barrier because not all women have have someone available so that male relative it could be it could be your teenage son or it could be your brother or your husband or your father?

45:09So typically it's a husband or a father. It needs to be a male relative above the age of 18. Right. But some women, as you say, who don't have husbands, fathers or sons, will necessarily have to stay in the home all day, every day? I mean, not necessarily. I think the situation is different in different parts of the country. but not having someone to accompany them is a massive barrier, not only to employment but to everyday life. And that's where women who are widows, who are unmarried, they face massive challenges just doing things that we see as everyday life. So perhaps we should concentrate then on the freedoms that women and girls in Afghanistan do still have.

46:05So tell us, what are they still allowed to do? Yeah. I mean, I really want to emphasize, women and girls, they're not passive to the restrictions they're facing. For really generations, they've been actively negotiating and advocating for their rights. And they continue to find ways to influence the situation for themselves and their families. Now, what this looks like, it's different between families and places. but women are still finding ways to be economically active. Families are finding ways to make sure their children are educated. So there's no perfect picture of what this looks like but they are doing everything they can to build a future for themselves.

46:56But officially a girl can only be educated up to the age of what is it? I mean, up until primary school. And we're talking about the only country in the world that, you know, bans women and girls from attending secondary and higher education. And it's now been over 1 ,700 days where girls are sitting at home and waiting to go back to school. And I absolutely take your point. And I'm sure so many people will be trying to find a way around that. But for some poor girls who perhaps now are, let's say, 10, they have only for 50 % of their lives. This is all they've known. absolutely this is the only reality they know and it's not just this generation when you speak with women and girls who previously had access to more opportunities that have now disappeared or have become really challenging you really can't imagine the mental toll this is taking we do know as well that women i mean this just it seems absurd but they're barred from parks so does that mean that women can go to a park with a male guardian and stand outside it and look at people inside the park i mean in in most cases yes i guess they could observe from the outside but this is really i mean this is a very good picture of of the loss of social and public life, right?

48:34So previously, families would go together to parks, they would have picnics. And that space is very much disappearing. Yeah, I mean, I do think it's just worth drawing attention to the absurdity of it. Women presumably are allowed to prepare food for a picnic, but they can't take it, they can't enjoy it in the park, they might have to wait outside, but more likely, they just wouldn't go out at all. Yeah, no, exactly. And I mean, we see the same contradictions in the economy, right? Like women are making up a huge amount of the informal workforce. And they also carry an enormous and disproportionate share of domestic and care work that actually sustain families and communities.

49:18So they will, it's important to emphasize this, that women will be working inside the home, not just cooking, but making things. yeah i mean i think we've seen this massive patchwork of degrees and policies and practices so women are increasingly turning to home-based self-employment they they are really adapting in every way they can um because it's it's not only an impact on individual women it's it's their families but i mean also the country's future and what about the idea that women can no longer train as midwives or nurses again it's utter madness what what impact is that having yeah i mean it's it's important in lusan that in afghanistan and the context it's women who can reach women and girls so if we're talking about a generation that doesn't have access to education we're looking at a future where women and girls can access health services and that is going to have a phenomenal knock-on effect not just on the mental and physical health of the women and girls involved but on the economy of a nation how can a nation survive like this no no you're right i mean it's it's honestly devastating and difficult to put into words I mean, some estimates are because of the continued social and economic exclusion of women.

50:55This could cost the country's economy an estimated$920 million just between 2024 and 2026 alone. Afghanistan is effectively sidelining half of its population and an enormous share of its human capital. And again, the impact is not just on individual women. It's on entire families and the potential for growth of the country. Do the leaders of the Taliban, are their own daughters? I'm sure plenty of them have daughters. Are they educated outside Afghanistan on the whole? Yeah, I mean, this question is a little bit difficult for me to answer. But I think the reality is, I mean, all women and girls are affected by the policies and practices of the authorities.

51:48Right. I absolutely take your point. So we don't need to pursue that. But there are indications, I think, Jacqueline, that some other governments are, well, they're beginning to communicate officially with the Taliban, aren't they? They're beginning to accept the idea of a Taliban-run Afghanistan. Yeah, I mean, we're starting to see that, including in Europe. And we're also starting to see more conversations around deportations. But also, there's a lot of debate around how to move forward, because we have reached a five-year mark. And it doesn't seem likely that the Taliban are going anywhere anytime soon.

52:35Yeah. That's the... Right. Okay. And how much longer will you continue to work there?

52:46I mean, for some years to come, definitely. I mean, I've now spent over four years in the country, but it's a place that continues to draw me in so we'll have to see but a few years. Right and the rest of the world we take a bit of notice of Afghanistan and its women and girls when there is an anniversary of this nature but on the whole we don't do a lot and we don't say a lot. Does it frustrate you that there aren't protests every single weekend in the western world about the impact of the Taliban on women and girls? Yeah, I mean, I think it's more about how women and girls are feeling here, and that's a sense of abandonment.

53:34I mean, for years they were repeatedly told their education, employment and basic rights were an international priority. But now their own priorities are being overshadowed by political debates, and they have a very genuine fear that the world is running away from Afghanistan. Thank you very much for talking to us. I appreciate that what you do is incredibly important and we're very grateful to you for sparing us a bit of time this afternoon and for bringing us the voices of some of your colleagues as well. Thank you very much, Jacqueline. That is Jacqueline Dolsky, who is Director of Programs at Welt Hunger Hilfer, which is an NGO working in Afghanistan.

54:14Jacqueline Dolsky, and I know that over the last couple of days there have been quite a few conversations about what's going on in Afghanistan. And I just hope we don't wait another five years before we return to it. I wonder, though, whether once again the whole subject will just fade away while we start focusing on other things. Anyway, you know how the news cycle works. It can be a bit like that. Hope you have a good couple of days. Hannah and I certainly are back next week. Everyone else is just on holiday. I know, just us too. I mean, our time will come. You've just come back from Greece, to be fair.

54:47I know this is a cliche, but the older you get, Hannah, feels like the holiday never happened. Really? Yeah. I've got the weekend now to spend a lot of quality time with Jay Rayner, Miriam Margulies and Kate Atkinson. And Laura. Yeah, thank you. And that. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Have a good couple of days.

55:21Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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