Forget the Pope, come to Off Air

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0:34It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends.

1:18You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. If you felt stuck trying to lose weight, you're not alone. Enter Weight Loss by HERS. It's designed to support you in reaching your goals. And HERS now offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved GLP-1 medications, including the WeGovi pill and the WeGovi pen.

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2:57But I never even recognise him when we see him, so don't worry. Right, we are on now, so let's stop slagging off people because that's just not good, is it? Hello, hello, how are you? No, I wasn't slagging anybody off. No, no, I didn't say you were. I said we might have been. Welcome to Off Air with Jane and Fee. Welcome. Monday's visualised episode. Yes. Only to those of you who want it visualised. If you don't, you don't need to visualise it. No. Just listen like normal. But do you wake up on a Monday morning and think it's visualisation Monday? I kind of do and I always have a wash. Okay. Do you?

3:31Yes, I know it's hard to believe. I'm having a few issues with the shower clogging, so it has to be quite a brief wash these days. Thoughts and prayers. Any tips? I'd really welcome them. Just a quick one, because people might know more about this than me. You know when you're shower drained? Do you think? Yes, I guess I do feel. When your shower drain gets clogged with human hair detritus and conditioner and shampoo. And you can put the stuff down to help with draining stuff, can't you? That was such a technical sentence. But other people have told me that corrodes the pipes. Yes, I believe that to be the case.

4:09What's the solution? Well, the solution would be to get somebody around who's got one of those very, very effective power tools. Or possibly investigate the possibility of a new shower. I do think my shower has done its time, if I'm honest. Why don't you just get a nice local plumber round to examine your pipes? A local plumber. Thank you very much, V. You're suggesting that I don't pay full wallop for that company that we all know that used to be run by that chap. Yes, that one. Although my most recent shower was put in by those people. Was it? It was, and it has proved to be magnificent. I had the same problem with mine, because I believe that I had a slightly corroded trap.

4:54OK. Now, actually, we need to apologise because the hungover episode of Thursday of last week... Can I just say, I don't think there is any way of two middle-aged women having a conversation about plumbers and pipes without it sounding like a massive festival of euphemisms. But we just need to make clear, Thursday's hungover episode was certainly for me a one-off, and it will never be repeated. Well, I think the problem is, Jane, you're hungover if you've had one glass of wine. And I've had several more than one. So it will happen again. Apologies. Professionalism has returned to off-air. Not for long.

5:26But not for long, no, because we were already talking about corroded traps. Traps. And other plumbing, women's parts. Yeah, moving on. Yes, absolutely, let's. Quick one. This is Lizzie. I was wondering if you were going to reschedule the interview with Lisa Jewell. I cannot see that I've missed it OK Lizzie don't worry you haven't missed it we're doing it tomorrow Brilliant So for anyone who was really interested to hear from Lisa whose book it could have been her I hope that's right is already I think number one in the hardback bestsellers so she's had another hit And we've talked to her before she's very good interviewee isn't she?

6:04She's very giving darling Yes darling she is Yes and we appreciate that It's not always the way It isn't But we do our very best to pull things out of people. We've discovered to our cost how ungiving some people are. On that topic, are you in admiration of Claudia Winkleman for saying, I don't want to do my chat show anymore? Good for her, yeah. Are you? Yes. Well, I think her kind of authenticity, I will be reasonably frank with you, schtick has served her well, hasn't it? And I must admit, I didn't see the chat show, not because I don't like her, but because I don't really like chat shows. And I think she's probably realised that, I don't know, do you think the chat show has legs?

6:48No. I think it's become, I mean, it's not a chat show anymore. It's a little kind of performance nugget show, isn't it? And there's only a certain type of entertainer who can really do it. And I think it actually only is Graham Norton. Because lots of other people have tried it. And it used to be the kind of the great big grand fromage thing that you could be given. You know, it seemed to be what people wanted to head towards in an entertainment career, that you'd get your own eponymous chat show. But I think, you know, for all of the very obvious reasons that everything is tightly guarded by PR, everything is agreed beforehand, and also most stars have now accepted that they can control their lives more if they tell their audience things directly, they don't have it prized out of them.

7:40And in fact, it's the direction of travel for politicians as well, isn't it? Yeah. To just grab some chairs, get it filmed on, you know, whatever social media platform and send it out to the world. So now I think it's a goner. Yeah. But I really admire her for just saying it wasn't for me. I've tried it. I don't want to do it. And actually I wish more people could do that in the world and it would be nice if she could kind of set a new bar for people who aren't particularly. It's not that she wasn't good at it, but it obviously wasn't her massive kind of forte. She'd decided that it'd be lovely, wouldn't it, if people just said, I haven't done this job particularly well.

8:19And now I'm off. I can't see it catching up. You could transfer it to politics. Well, that's kind of where I was heading. Oh, gosh, I've forgotten what today is. Well, this is a massive week in our political life. Well, it's not that massive because it happens every now and again these days. Again. Yeah, you're right. Another mahusive week. So Andy Burnham will probably take the reins. I think he is Britain's, certainly Britain's first Catholic prime minister, which actually is incredible. And a bit weird. And a bit strange. Not that Catholicism is strange. Hey, you can write in about that if you like.

8:52Some people might say some aspects of all religions are a bit strange. But the fact that we've never had a Catholic prime minister before is a bit mind boggling in the serx. And also the first Scouse prime minister, which obviously, although he is a woolly back, I mean, he's not actually, I mean, I know some people object to my Scouse credentials or lack of them, but I'm more Scouse than he is. I really am. He was from, where was it? I think he was born in Aintree, so I suppose technically. Anyway, let's not get picky. It's too early in his premiership for that. You brought it up. I know I did.

9:26And he's an Evertonian. And he still, he thinks, by the way, he'll be able to go to Everton matches. and do you think he will? I think it's problematic because Keir Starmer wanted to carry on going to Arsenal and in fact his security detail said you can't carry on going as a normal punter, you're going to have to go in a box and then he was slightly ridiculed for suddenly appearing in the VIP box. But I think these days, I mean especially given what's happened recently, I can't see that he can saunter in the same way that he used to. And the huge problem for him now, I mean, aside from any personal danger that he would be putting himself in, is that he draws massive attention to everybody around him.

10:16You know, that's hard to manage. Yeah, it is. It's very hard. Do you know what I do admire about him, though, is he's already said, I'll be at number 10, but my family's not moving here. You know, they live in Manchester. That's where we're based. His wife's going to carry on working there. I think, good for you. It has always seemed to me very strange that you have to get your family to come and live at number 11 down the street, isn't it? Especially if you've got kids who are still living with you. What a ridiculous ask. It's such an odd part of town, isn't it? Yes, it's not. I mean, it's handy for Westminster Tube, I suppose, but that's about it.

10:56It's not a place to live. It's not a family place to live at all. I think his children are in their 20s and presumably they just want to stay close to where they're used to. Yes, and I think his wife wants to stay working. And she wants to carry on working. Good for her. So I think that's fine. You know, we've got lots of emails about different ways of working. Yeah, they're interesting those. Which we'll get to in a sec. But I think you should be able to say, I'm going to be there and then, you know, I'll scoot home when I can. That's the way of the modern working world. Also, I do admire the fact that he has talked about his dad having Alzheimer's And let's be honest, it's just very poignant, isn't it, that I think his dad was quite pivotal in his career.

11:34And now his dad just won't know that he's become prime minister. And that's a tough one, isn't it? So well done to him for talking about that, because as I think he's already said, that's a situation so many people in the country will find themselves in or have been through. So I'm glad that's been aired and acknowledged. and it's just very poignant, isn't it? Because we all want the very best for our children in British public life. Unless you're royal, you simply can't get any higher than being Prime Minister. So it's sad that his dad doesn't know about it. But anyway. So we'll see how long his vibes last and I wish him well.

12:14It's so easy, isn't it, to become incredibly cynical about anybody's chances of success in politics. and it does seem to be true that we live in a political system that is incapable of serving the needs of the political masses, us. It just doesn't seem to work on so many levels but I do wish him the best before we start throwing... Yeah, well, where are we now? Potato peelings from the sidelines. So what will you give him until Wednesday? Before you find something different? Yes, I think Wednesday afternoon. Wednesday will be when the proverbial hits the what's-ish. So, well, when... No, no, no, Parliament's not sitting now.

12:54No. So his first PMQs won't be until September. He's going on a tour of the country. Yeah. Whether the country wants him to tour it is... Well, I'd be excited to see him in person. Would you? OK. If he pitched up in the east end of London, I would definitely be there for him. I'd like to see him in the flesh. Yes, I've met him. I have met him. I can't remember. And I was really racking my brains. He must have... He appeared on Woman's Hour. But why? I don't know. I might see if I can go back and find audio proof of our encounter. But I know I've met him. How did you find him? Very, very friendly.

13:28Of course, you'll never guess what we talked about. OK. We made a bit of small talk about you know what. Yes. So do you ever worry about the reaction that the I'm from Liverpool thing has? Because any, any, this is where I'm from. And, you know, I'm going to state it as my identity first. I think, isn't it deliberately designed to make the other person feel inferior? I don't know. Aren't you always saying, I'm from Liverpool, I'm slightly better than you? No, that's not what we're saying. It's a tribal affiliation. In fact, did you read Charlotte Ivers in the Sunday Times yesterday? I didn't. Okay.

14:02Well, she basically made the point that I think she said she'd grown up in the south of England and then spent time in Cambridge. I think we know what that means. And she was a bit cheesed off by the whole idea of northern identity. And this is where Andy Burnham's on a little bit of a sticky wicket because Liverpool is not that far north. I mean, it's it's northwest and it pokes out into the Irish Sea, but it's not Dumfries. And it's not, you know, it's not Inverness. It's it's it's northwest and about two hours, 20 minutes on of anti-west from London. So if think if I lived in the far north, Newcastle, Northumberland, I might I might slightly take issue with this whole.

14:44I know the North thing because he knows the Northwest and that's not quite the same thing, is it? Let's do some emails. Well, it's not. I mean, it isn't that far from London. By the sounds of it, I may be slightly with Charlotte on this. I think when you make your identity something that is exclusive to the person that you're talking to, I think you're out to cause a bit of immediate friction. If you met someone from Slough, yes, would you talk about it? No, not from Slough because we moved around so much. I don't remember Slough. So if I met somebody from Hampshire, honest to God, and I mean, you know, this does happen quite a lot.

15:30Somebody might say where they're from and I'll say, oh, I went to school in Winchester and then that's just it because it's not my identity. I don't have a geographical, cultural identity. You know, as with a lot of people, because you moved around quite a bit or you then feel that your identity is where you've chosen to live. So, you know, I feel like I'm more from London than anywhere else because I came here when I was 17. Yeah. And I'm 57 now and that's 40 years. So what happened before was, you know, where my parents had chosen to live, but neither of them were from Hampshire. I can't do the reform plumber.

16:11You know, my family have been in the region for 200 years. So we don't have that kind of identity. We haven't heard much from him lately, have we? No. Actually, I should get him round to talk to you. He gets around. Why don't you phone up and say, you're not busy. Would you like to come and look at my trap? On Urinals comes in from Giles Shepard, who describes himself as a converted listener. Have you come over from Catholicism to join this faith? He's left the Pope behind and come to all fair. Fair enough. Long-time listener, first-time emailer, or rather long-time hearing about your podcast from my mum and sister.

16:43So they wore you down. You're utterly obsessed, but first-time emailer. I'm writing because you briefly talked about your rhinos in your latest episode. I was going to say courtesy of Glyn, although really, were we grateful to him for that one? I like Glyn's contributions. They're always brilliantly written. But this one, I thought about it afterwards and made me think funny thoughts about men's trousers and just how often some of them are washed. It was about the splashback on the lower leg area. I've just graduated my BA from Design Academy Eindhoven and one of my two graduation projects has made me something of an expert on urinals in one very specific manner.

17:25I wrote a thesis, which I will attach. Well, thank you. Thanks, Giles. looking at urinals sideways, posing them as sacred ritual sites where masculinity is produced and upheld. I ramble about various ideas that all point towards the urinal as devotional architecture. I hope it can contribute to your questions as to why the urinal still exists. I do think this is genuinely fascinating. I think it's brilliant. What was that phrase again? What was it, architecture? Devotional architecture. Devotional architecture. Which is something that we don't talk about often enough on this podcast. No, it's a first.

18:05But look, welcome, devotional architecture. I need to know so many more things. I mean, what is the exact title? I mean, I didn't open this this morning. It was too early for a thesis. I feel really bad. I didn't either. But I would like to know at least the title of the thesis. Shall we ask Eve if she could read it tonight? Yeah. Read the thesis. Yes. Eve's not allowed to speak today. We will hear from her tomorrow, we hope, on the podcast. She's had another of her frantic weekends in which we're told she's been involved in a record breaking attempt. So full details tomorrow. Yeah. But it involves pirates.

18:41What? Don't give any more away. And Hastings. Yeah. And she's almost lost her voice. Yeah. Yeah. We travelled up to Norfolk this weekend, the beautiful, beautiful big skies of Norfolk for a friend's 60th, which was a festival, Jane. Is she a popular lady? Very, very popular. So it was a massive thing and all hail to her and her family for the planning that went into it. So loads of people were staying on this campsite, really lovely campsite outside Durham. And everybody had an absolute blast, two days of mad mayhem and celebration of Sophie. I don't think she'd mind me saying happy birthday, Sophie.

19:19When was her birthday? I've got absolutely no idea, but this was the weekend that we were celebrating it on. They served a magnificent curry as the main meal, which was such a good idea. In those containers, do you ever do a Farmer J meal? I'm sorry, I don't understand how it works. We've got one in East West Kensington. Oh, my goodness. How can you not be there every day? I go past it and I stand outside in complete wonderment, but I don't know what you do. You have to fill up. It looks a little bit like how they serve food in prisons. Or in primary schools. Some secondary schools still have the...

19:54compartmentalised. The rectangular tray that just has, yes, kind of, you know, six or seven in this case. And it was all disposable because it was a very eco-friendly event. But can I just say, it's not cheap. Farmer Jay, I'm sure she's charging. No, and it wasn't Farmer Jay. It was just in those. So you had all of these. It was a tarley. It was absolutely beautiful. Absolutely brilliant. We went in a camper van because we went in a camper van. That's what we decided to do. We rented a camper van. There's a very funny picture. What she's not saying is she didn't want to camp. No. Well, we didn't.

20:28I'll be honest about that. I'm not terribly good at camping. I don't find it very restful. Well, that's because it's not. I think it suits the under-18s. I mean, everybody here was, you know, entering their third age and doing it with a plomb. They went for it, did they? But we had a camper van. They'll be feeling it today, though, won't they? Quite a big camper van. Yes. And I'm very happy to put this picture up on the Instagram. So my partner, he took a picture of me driving it. Obviously, I have to be so close to the steering wheel. I think I need to rethink my late in life career change to road haulage.

21:02Can we just hear the make of the camper van, please? It's a VW California. Just so people can look it up, because this is a long way from the Skoda Monte Carlo. It certainly is. So how did you find driving it? So my feet couldn't reach the floor. So it was a bit like playing an organ. I mean, it was an automatic, so I didn't have to do lots of gear changes. because it would have been very good for my diaphragm. But it was like playing an organ. Have you ever played a massive organ? No, I haven't. I'm determined to be mature this week. No, I haven't. Okay. Well, you would do it with the same kind of tippy-toe action.

21:37So I had to drive with my tippy-toes, which was fine. I didn't do all of that. I didn't do the big motorway driving. I leave that to my man. That's not for women. Ladies, I should have said. No, I don't think ladies should drive on motorway. But the picture is just ridiculous. I'm very happy to share it. Well, we need to stick that up. It is just daft. Yeah, okay. And there was one point where we approached entering a dual carriageway. I think these are very, very badly designed. You know, when you approach a kind of T-junction onto a dual carriageway, on the other side of the dual carriageway, there's also a T-junction.

22:10So even though you know it's going to be clear, you've got to factor in the person who's decided it's clear on that side, who's going to come around that side. Absolutely terrible. and we were going to go to the coast and I was so terrified by the junction we went inland instead we spent we spent a very nice lunchtime in Swatham. Swatham yeah yeah I mean the trouble is when you say Norfolk now I think of two things um Dr Ruth Galloway in the Ellie Griffiths books yes and just and Stig's books and just general murder really so it's a good job that I didn't know that you were in Norfolk at the weekend I'd have been worried sick no there was plenty of life Was there?

22:47Yes. No, you didn't find any old bones? No. No, okay. No, you didn't. Right, well, I'm glad you had a good time and we do need to see that image. Make sure it goes public. I'm happy to do that. And I do think 60s are interesting these days. People seem to be really putting some welly into them. I think 60 is the new whatever. Yeah, is that, why do you think that is? I suppose we have, have you heard that expression, 10 good summers? Yes. Yeah, I'm hearing that. As in you've got 10 good summers left? Yes, well, exactly that. And then there was, before that, we had 18 summers, the summers you might have reasonably with your children if you have them.

23:28Right. I find both of them, I wonder what other people think, just make me feel a bit melancholy. This is quite winter exclusive, isn't it? Yeah, well, it's not fair to winter. No one thinks about all those Novembers you'll have. But do you think the 60th is because, I don't know, are we feeling younger in ourselves at 60? I've got a feeling that both my parents maybe felt that 60 was the beginning of something different that you wouldn't have a massive party for. Well, I think that based on statistics and life expectancy, that wasn't unreasonable. Yeah. But now we know people live longer, but it's how well they live, isn't it?

24:12That's what really matters. People are, you're right, they're having big blowouts for their 60th. I mean, that's if you're fortunate. Obviously, some people couldn't dream of doing such a thing. Yeah. But also, I mean, as you know, it is also a time that is often laced with loss and, you know, quite often. And challenge of one sort or another. You will be having conversations with so many people who have just buried a parent, who are dealing with unruly teens or difficult early adult life in their kids. I mean, there's just so much swirling around. Yeah, that's a lot. So I suppose it's quite seize the day, isn't it?

24:46You're right. Yeah, seize the day and serve up a tarly. A tarly? Yeah, that is a good idea. Just magnificent. Claire says, and we'll punt this out, I listened to your houses and places coincidence stories. I thought I'd add mine. My ex-husband and my husband have the same initials as each other. That is quite, that's quite a lot of spooks. The same birthday, albeit a year apart, and both have a sibling with the same name. Yeah, that's almost too much. Both, of course, have married a woman called Claire. I added that bit. Claire, thank you. That's very strange. Yes. What is the universe telling Claire?

25:27that she's got a kind of doppelganger on the go. Yes. Can I just say because... Sorry, I'm just going to tip my coffee out. Giles had an addendum at the end. I have to shout out my mum, Nicola, who listens to your podcast and sketches as she listens, often posting to her Instagram at movement makerspace. And my sister, Rosa, who's a brilliant artist in Amsterdam, who I know has gotten through many a stressful period with the help of a bit of Jane and Fee in the headphones. Right. And we're going to, Eve is going to read your thesis tonight, Giles, and she will come back with, I mean, she's a very intellectual person, Eve, as well as, you know, having a splendidly sexy voice.

26:11Yes. So she can do both things. And a social life that could best be described as lively. And let's just leave it there. But we're living vicariously through Eve's social life, so I'm actually madly jealous. Lost Things. This is from Sig.

26:53Greece. But you came back from France rather loving France. Yes I like France. I like France very very much but I love Greece. Okay can I just ask a supplementary question on this. So in France when you were musing about the fact that you're in quite a rural place and you could see twinkling lights of something a bit more urban off in the distance but perhaps that level of rural existence wouldn't be great for you. In Greece, aren't you looking across massive, great big areas of the Peloponnese before you can even see a twinkling light? Why would that feel less in the middle of nowhere? It's a good point, but I don't want to live in the middle of nowhere.

27:41I never want to live anywhere again where I can't walk and get something to read and milk in about five or six minutes. I really do mean that. So these are just places to visit, Fee. Okay. Yeah. I am never living in the middle of nowhere. As we all know, if you're a woman in fiction, that's a very, very dangerous thing to do. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Actually, we could talk about that to Lisa Jewel, couldn't we? Because there's been quite a talking point, and it's been said before, but so many of the best-selling books, I think, last week? I think nine out of ten of the best-selling books feature dead women.

28:18And we have discussed it. Well, we've discussed it before. I mean, we've been banging on about it for years, actually. It's just deeply peculiar. Yeah. But it's something that we obviously feel the need to read about. I mean, and I'm not disassociating myself from this. So let's talk about it to Lisa tomorrow, see what she says. But both you and I, I think, have come to really, really lovely authors who don't. well yes but they're just they're not as successful as the ones who do. Yeah but the more we talk about them the more successful hopefully we could make them. So let's only talk about them.

28:51Okay.

28:55Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app now with heart rate variability could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions, requires iPhone 11 or later. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough.

29:29It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. you just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends.

30:13You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. If you felt stuck trying to lose weight, you're not alone. Enter Weight Loss by HERS. It's designed to support you in reaching your goals, and HERS now offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the WeGovi pill and the WeGovi pen.

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31:44Now the working from home debate, because we were quite firmly on the side of it doesn't suit us. and we've had some very, very thoughtful emails from people who'd like to point out that it does suit them. This is going to remain anonymous. I wanted to write in to contribute to the working from home conversation. I'm a 35-year-old woman in London with a two-year-old toddler. I've spent the majority of my working life so far based in an office until COVID changed that and now only go in once or sometimes twice a week. I genuinely cannot get my head around how working mothers used to and many still do, have to go to the office every day and keep up with having children.

32:25To do the nursery drop-off followed by a London commute, a dare to desk, making it back for pick-up before the nursery shuts, home for dinner, bath time, bedtime, and that's before the food shops, laundry and tidying up the house. Thank you for what then continues to be a very thoughtful email. I'm just going to jump to the end for time purposes. So it's all very well saying how nice it is to go into the office and see people in the flesh, even just to enjoy being irritated by your colleagues but it's just not that simple when you're juggling small kids and everything which comes with it. I am so grateful that I can enjoy seeing my daughter when I pick her up because I've already managed to unpack the dishwasher over lunchtime.

33:04Massive respect to those parents who are still having to go in five days a week and juggling all of the household chores and the kids too. I realise I'm very lucky with the set-up and flexibility I have. That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? that email the struggle to keep on pursuing a reasonable working life whilst feeling that you are doing the right thing by your child who's how old too yes yeah and and also I really do sympathize with that and I suppose we were rather glibly just yeah yeah our own lives because our kids are much older yeah but also Jane I just really really struggled when my kids were tiny particularly that age I really struggled with not being in the same vicinity as them and I don't think you're allowed to say that very often actually and for all of the liberation that you might then feel when you get to your desk at work and you can choose your pret sandwich and all that kind of stuff, I genuinely sometimes had to make myself stay on the bus because it just felt like I was going in a direction I didn't want to go in geographically.

34:09It just felt far away from my kids. so props to the parents who are getting on trains you know to go hours away from where their kids are i think there's there is still quite a quite often you have quite a visceral connection yeah to your kids when they're absolutely tiny so i completely hear you on that um this is from pat the main reason we should welcome working from home is that it allows parents mainly mothers to stay in work and earn and pay the bills of course the social side of office work is great but not everyone can afford this. Allowing working from home has actually been a major liberation for many.

34:46It must have rescued a lot of family budgets, especially for single parents. And finally, if Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn't like it, it must be good for normal people. Right. Okay. Yes, he's a... Oh, no, we have heard a little bit. I was going to say he'd gone a bit quiet, but we have heard a little bit about him. This is from Corrine. Working from home has been transformative for my ability to earn decent money and balance work with home life. I live on the coast and the salaries available for my profession, communications that is in this area, are significantly less than what I could earn in land. This does, however, mean at least an hour's commute.

35:26Without working from home as an option, I'd be faced with the choice of earning less and not being 50-50 with my husband, something that is important to me. or earning more and missing out on an awful lot of family life due to leaving early and then getting home late. I really like going into the office, really enjoy seeing my colleagues, wouldn't want to lose that. And I understand that if you live alone, being in an office environment could be vital. However, being able to work a good chunk of my week from home means I occasionally get to do the school drop off, can get to some after-school clubs and have time to exercise before and after work without that eating into family time.

36:06Honestly, thank you for that, Corrine. The more I think about this, the more respectful I am of those women, and it is largely women, who are trying to juggle all this stuff right now. It feels like a long time ago that I was attempting to do it, and that's really because it is a long time ago. And I must have been knackered. I really must. But I only worked half the day. Yeah, you were lucky. You had a job that actually really fitted into having kids. Pretty much, pretty much, because I could spend the more, when I was working at the BBC, I could spend, depending on where I was working, crash, I could either be at home with the children in the morning and then go to work in the afternoon, or I went early in the morning when I was at Radio 4 and I'd be home for school pick-up.

36:50And it's so rare to have that time. It's incredibly rare. And, you know, I don't think I took that for granted, even then, actually. I mean, don't get me wrong, I was absolutely knackered. I used to fall asleep at my desk quite a bit, actually, when I went back after my younger child, because you're probably sleep deprived to the power of however many children you have. Well, yeah, because you don't sleep at night either, really, do you? Not really. Just a misunderstanding. I have to say a huge thank you, actually. My colleagues were always very understanding about it and wouldn't draw it to the management's attention.

37:27Well, not that. The time you fell asleep on the radio was actually noted. Have you seen Adam's email about having insomnia? Yes, we can do that. And then we're also going to try and help out Caroline's husband over his choice of knickers. So actually this has turned into a very helpful to men podcast. We've only ever wanted to be helpful to men. Is that true, Jane? Not really, no. So but Adam, it makes me sad, this actually, because he does say that as a bloke, he can't discuss it with his mates. This is the fact that he's really struggling to sleep. And whilst my wife is supportive, she's sceptical.

38:06She's sceptical about the fact that he'd like to do some craft. Anyway, let's just hear the email. I followed all the sleep advice, limited myself to one coffee a day, abandoned the iPad after seven o 'clock. I've stopped eating at half past five, I've given up alcohol and I take magnesium. I will fall fast asleep quicker than you can say house on the prairie when I settle down in front of the TV and when my head hits the pillow. But after three hours, I'm as alert as a meerkat. That's it. That's exactly what happens to Adam. As a child, whenever my dad or granddad were slumped in front of the telly, I used to wonder how it was possible, whether it was Coronation Street, Porridge or The Good Life, which were, of course, incredibly engaging and essential family viewing.

38:50Nowadays, I'm in awe at anyone who can stay awake. Meanwhile, my granny and my mum were formidable knitters. And so I'm wondering whether I can attribute their wakefulness not only to being in charge of the remote control, but to keeping their hands occupied. The problem is, as a bloke, I can't discuss it with mates. And whilst my wife's supportive, she's sceptical as she's not a knitter herself. I come to you and your listenership then for advice over three things. Firstly, are there any further tips on my sleeping problem? But secondly, if keeping myself passively occupied in front of the telly is the answer, should I crochet or knit?

39:30Right. There's a lot. There's a lot going on in Adam's mind, isn't there? So I think he wants advice on two things. Taking up craft as a man in, I'm guessing, approximately midlife. And how can he stop that, do that waking up in the middle of the night thing again? That. After two or three hours sleep. Now, as women, we're not unfamiliar with the idea of sleeplessness. Not just with small children, but also... It's a massive menopausal symptom. It's a huge menopausal thing, Adam, as I'm sure you're aware. And there are those not long, dark nights of the soul. I think that's slightly over-egging it.

40:08But times when you do think, am I ever going to get a night's kip again? But we don't often think about men in insomnia. And interestingly, I was talking to a colleague here at work this morning who just says she's lucky if she gets five hours sleep a night. Now, I couldn't function on five hours. Could you? No, I do like my sleep very much. But I think also, as anybody who has real insomnia knows, when you mention insomnia to people, it is one of those weird things where people always say, oh, you should try this, you should try this, you should try this. It is a world of recommendation out there.

40:47And I bet Adam has already tried quite a few things. And that kind of, and there's quite an obsession now about sleep hygiene, and your tracker apps and all of that, which personally I think must be a little bit counterproductive. I think they're probably incredibly counterproductive, as, by the way, is the notion that you, quote, need eight hours sleep. I don't think everybody does need eight hours sleep. I think if you get six and a half, seven hours, you are supposed to be able to function. Most people can. So if you're not getting eight hours, park that, and then you might be less stressed about the fact that you're not getting eight hours.

41:21But why don't we just compile a helpful list of kind of 20 things that people have done that have cured their insomnia. I mean, he's done a lot. Doesn't drink, doesn't eat after half five. Yeah. That'd be hard for me because I do like a nibble later. Well, I suppose, I mean, if it's not helping, you could try just flipping that on its head and have a big cheese sandwich and a glass of red wine at 10 past 10. Yeah. You know, when news at 10 changes into less Armageddon gear and see whether or not that helps. And also, as anybody who's had insomnia will know, it just becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy you know you fall asleep so worried about the time that you're going to wake up then something in your brain wakes you up at that time so but let's try and be helpful and compile a list in terms of keeping your hands busy so you're not just kind of in a slightly um you know somnolent state when you're watching tv definitely just just get some needles and try some knitting or try quilting my quilting's going very very very slowly yeah well but it is it is it definitely I think it does help actually because then you feel productive not completely and utterly kind of supine so that might help and go for it I've never been able to crochet I don't I watch people crochet it just seems interminable but but uh have you ever tried crochet you'll be amazed to hear I haven't I'm not even sure what the strict definition of crochet is?

42:49Well it's one needle not two. It's a it's a needle with a hook on it so you're constantly hooking through. But what do you make? Everything you can make absolutely everything but you could make a scarf. You could make a scarf you can make a doily you could have a friend who makes amazing kind of uh scars but they're they're almost like ruffs out of crochet absolutely beautiful things. Like a puritan style? Yes they are quite old-fashioned they're rather lovely yeah. Let's bring back rough. Bring back the rough. Something Andy Burnham could focus on. Come on, Andy. I think we're slightly heading towards it.

43:24There's definitely a Victorian feel about the maxi dress at the moment. Victorian? Yes. What do you mean? Well, dresses are very long and they do, I mean, I'm kind of wearing the right shape today. You know, they're in at the waist and then they're flared out. Right. It's quite a Victorian look. Okay. Yeah. I'm very glad that the bodycon dress has had its day. The 1980s were very unforgiving for anybody apart from those five supermodels. I think I wonder whether bodycon might make a bit of a comeback. Most things do. It's over there in the MAGA land, isn't it? That's the uniform of the MAGA White House employee.

44:05It's the very long blowout hair, as they call it in America. And the very, very super tight dress and the very high heels. He got a bit of booing, didn't he, old... Can we just have a brief conversation, not about the football itself, but just about the behaviour around the World Cup final and then the interval. Now, you said that you went... So you went to bed in the second half. Did you see the interval spectacular? I actually didn't see it because I timed my Sunday night wash to coincide with the halftime show because I knew it would be crap. So you didn't see Wayne Rooney's fantastic reaction.

44:44I know what he said. I know what he said. And I think he speaks for many. We were all in that moment. So it was Madonna and who else was in it? So Robbie Williams, Nicole. That was before the football. Thing me jiggy and what's it? They did there before. Well, that was at least in tune, I thought. And they looked like they'd all just come off an Avatar set. It was very, very odd. I mean, Robbie Williams has a sense of humour, but even that tracksuit was beyond him. I don't think he could pull that off. Was he not wearing it ironically? That's what I mean. I credit him with it. Yeah, I don't think he managed to convey that he was wearing it ironically.

45:22It was a kind of very, very odd bright blue and it had sparkles in it. Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, it's the kind of thing that if your child, you know, you're walking through the shops and they said, mummy, mummy, mummy, I really want that. You know, you would pretend that there was an emergency in another shop and that you had to leave immediately. And then the halftime was Shakira, Madonna, Burner Boy and, oh, I can't remember, but I mean, it was just, the Muppets were in there. Oh, I didn't see the Muppets. And Wayne Rooney, for people who didn't see it, Gabby Logan went round the houses, round the table, asking all of her pundits what they thought of it and there were some very polite answers from the other two.

46:02And Wayne Rooney just went, it was crap. Well. and we were all like yes it was terrible and then donald trump wouldn't get off the stage and the argentinians were just awful they were utterly classless weren't they i think with the exception of um messi who did just sat down and cried he did yeah but then he did shake the hands of the spanish players but the rest of them just went up to the the spanish team pushed them slapped them shoved them it's awful it was just horrible it was really horrible and tom cruise had done this great big thing at the beginning about the unity of football and how wonderful it was for everyone to come together in this stadium tonight, you know, we're kind of part of a religion and then along comes the Argentinians.

46:50Can I apologise? Anyway, they didn't win. They didn't win. So I need to find the right email here because I want to get my apology specific. So we ended one of the podcasts last week with me saying something about the Malvinas. Okay. What I was trying to do was make a, what is admittedly a very niche joke about another podcast host who has got into a lot of trouble for doing that but I didn't correctly identify that this was what I was trying to do so it just came across as me saying something quite offensive and as our correspondent pointed out this is from Emily I am the child of a military family so I wouldn't want to say that in all seriousness but there has been a right old ding dong and I don't think we want to send people in the direction of that podcast to listen to it you certainly don't one of the great great big podcasts about sport got into trouble for exactly that but I'm sorry it was too niche so I need to identify that this is an attempt at sarcastic sardonic slightly pointy finger humor yeah if that's going to Well, you know, we're both guilty of that from time to time.

47:59You've clambered out of your niche, I think, very successfully in that beautiful dress. So we're absolutely fine. What was I? I'm sure I've got an apology to it. Well, I must have. There must be some deep down something I've done. The World Cup is over. Oh, no, but also, once again, with my unerring sense of judgment, I went to bed at halftime on Saturday night when England were 4-0 up against France thinking there can't be any more action in the second half. Another error. Anyway, I watched the highlights first thing on Sunday morning and it was great, that game. It was so entertaining. I mean, sometimes we get so po-faced about, oh, well, you know, it was one for the purists.

48:40I mean, the defence were brilliant. You just want to see goals, for God's sake. That's why we watch football. And that England-France game was just absolutely one for the ages. It was fantastic entertainment. And afterwards, weren't they all lovely? You see, that was the Entente Cordial. It was. The Hundred Years War is just forgotten. It's long forgotten. And it is actually long forgotten. So well done to us. Yes. Now, I have tried the new Netflix Little House on the Prairie. It's no good for me. Jane and Farham, my advice is steer well clear if you've got fond memories of the books. The Netflix interpretation is even more saccharine than the original TV series.

49:20The dad is again easy on the eye, but the rest is rubbish. you'd think that the simple written stories would be perfect for adaptation but netflix has netflix has other ideas i managed 15 minutes before i switched off jane i think i did about the same actually um and i although the dad is is as you say easy on the eye it's actually not a patch on the charles ingalls i fell for michael landon although i did read a tv review over the weekend and forgive me i should remember who wrote this who said that michael landon looked like a an LA hairdresser. He did have a very luscious boof. He just had good hair.

49:58Yeah. And how he kept it going on the prairie there, I don't know, but I think he must have been ahead of his time in terms of products. Do you think that he was old enough to have had all of those children? I don't know. What do you mean? He only had three. Oh, I thought he had many more. In the show? Yeah. No, there were three little girls. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. But Laura is the pivotal daughter, isn't she? She's the middle of the three children. I just found it so boring. Oh, no, she was the one who had all the adventures. Her little sister wasn't old enough to have adventures and the older one was a tiny bit of a goody two-shoes.

50:32Okay. I remember we were allowed to watch it as a kind of special TV treat. Yeah, this new iteration isn't a treat. No. So don't bother with it. I just used to long for Swap Shop to come on. Swap Shop was on the Saturday and it wasn't Little House on the Prairie on Sundays? Not in Granada land. OK. It was different I2V, you see. It certainly would have been. Love to You All comes in from Alison, who says, I stood behind Stanley Tucci in a cash machine queue at Pisa Airport about 20 years ago. I didn't know who he was until later, but standing waiting, I couldn't help but notice his skin, jacket, jeans, shoes, nails, everything was perfect and just glowed, and he smelt delightful too.

51:21I don't understand it. Here's a really lovely thing as well. A lovely man with his parents and children enduring a delayed flight along with everyone else. He didn't disappoint. Well, that is lovely. Isn't it? Good to know. If you've stood behind a celebrity and they were pleasant to their relatives and smelt nice, let us know. Yeah, we'll compile a little league table. If, on the other hand, you've stood behind a really smelly celebrity who was vile to their family, we'd really like to know. Well, we've got an email about something smelly in a very well-known person's toilet whilst viewing a house.

51:56We're very grateful to you for sending it in. But you're absolutely right. We can't read it out. It's a little bit too close to home.

52:07Let's talk instead about Sarah's email. I was interested in the episode with Amanda Wakeley, the fashion designer, where she referred to not liking buttons. Now, this really interests me because... The fear of buttons is a thing. Yeah, and I kind of knew it was because I had a friend who worked in a school and she told me that they once had to repurpose a school uniform for a child who simply couldn't have buttons on their uniform. And this was... I mean, I know phobias exist, but I didn't know that that particular one was such a thing. Anyway, Sarah says, my 14-year-old daughter has what I would have to describe as a button phobia.

52:46It's, I'm going to try and pronounce this, actually I can't pronounce it. It's spelt K-O-Poonophobia. Let's just call it that, fear of buttons. Okay, she's had it for many years now. Outside of school, she never wears buttons and certainly wouldn't consider giving me a hug or getting too close if I was wearing a cardigan or something with buttons. Instead, she has a special word she uses in order to avoid saying the word. She refers to what she calls bleatons. Now, there's a real irony here as my maiden name is... Bleatons. No button. Oh.

53:25Anyway, I'd be interested to hear from other listeners who have this phobia or maybe had it as a child. I'm hoping to hear stories from people who've grown to be more accepting of buttons and can manage them as an adult without being quite so restricted with their wardrobes. Because my daughter really is restricted at the moment. Well, I can imagine she is. I mean, I suppose these days there are plenty of sweatshirts and T-shirts that are without attachments. I think you could get through life without buttons now. You probably can. But a school uniform can be, certainly used to be, a bit tricky in that area, didn't it?

54:00Yeah. Yeah, it's a phobia that clearly is quite common. which I didn't appreciate. I suppose I wouldn't choose anything with big buttons. Well, and we were talking about this with Amanda Wakeley, that big buttons on small people just makes you look very, very comically childlike. Same reason I wouldn't go for, you know, those really big, chunky necklaces, you know, with great big objects, which quite a lot of, I'm going to say, more mature women favour. Well, you're advised to, aren't you, by those stylist people? So, you know, when you're natural, youthful beauty. Is that because of your décolletage?

54:43Yeah, when that starts fading. And I suppose it's just, it's a little bit like Donald Trump's foreign policy. It's a distraction mechanism, isn't it, from the troubles at home. So if you wear a great big statement piece of jewellery, people won't notice that you look 103. I just think they won't. I mean, I'd look like the mayor of Camberwick Green or something. Well, this is the problem. It's just stupid. And if you've got a bit of a bust and you try and wear a very, very big chunky necklace, I don't know. I mean, you know, especially if it's gold, the temptation for people to come along and pull it so it flushes, I would have thought would be a little bit overwhelming.

55:23So, yeah, it's not for us. No, it isn't. Botan phobia, please. Do you grow out of it? What can be done with it? And also, is there the equivalent in the rest of the haberdashery department? Is there a zip phobia? Oh, good point. Or are some people averse to Velcro? That makes a noise, doesn't it? It does. Isn't it for everybody? And it's funny feeling. Oh, I don't like Velcro. Maybe that's my phobia. You know when bits of things get stuck in Velcro? You know, bits of fluff and hair and stuff like that. Yeah. And you think, oh, you know, that's my Sunday evening task to pick it all out. We're back to your drain trap.

56:01Kate says, keep on laughing. Thank you so much for making me cry with laughter with Jane's pronunciation. Right, you've got to give it a bit more of a go. So can you remember how you pronounced with... I can't actually. Wrongly, clearly. With Eliscum. With Eliscum is how I think I'd write it phonetically, says Kate. Why was Jane pronouncing the W as a V? Well, because I thought it was in Germany. Okay. Never mind sounding French. She did make it sound German. I replayed it ten times. I was having a thoroughly crap time after being dumped a few days ago after a ridiculously short but very fun eight weeks and it's the only thing that's managed to make me laugh since.

56:43Well, that and the chat's about Fanny as a name. Right. I'm sorry to hear about being dumped, but at least you had the fun. You've had the fun for eight weeks and you sound like a very amusing lady, so I'm sure you'll find fun again. Here we are. I knew there was something I got wrong. Sarah says, I had to laugh, I had to laugh, when Jane innocently asked if the lake where Fee went on holiday was a freshwater lake. Austria is, of course, landlocked, so I can't think that it would be a saltwater lake. OK, fair enough. That is true. Sarah says she's off to Scotland near Edinburgh next Monday and visiting North Berwick on one of the days with my friend who I'm staying with.

57:25She says it's a lovely place. Yes, and we're going to be there on August the 7th. Yep. We've got an 11 o 'clock slot in the big tent and our guest is going to be Jan Ravens. Yeah. So that will just be superb. She's so, so funny. Yeah. And she will do all of her impressions and impersonations throughout. Yeah. And we'll have a right good time. Yes. Come along if you can. No, I think that will be, she's a good guest. And actually, are we allowed to say who our guest at Cheltenham is? Well, let's just say. I mean, what can they do? What can they do, Jane? They can come for us. They could. And one day they will, as we both know, which is why we're making the most to do it now.

58:04Any day now. There will be a time when someone will gently lead us to the door, marked exit, will be put into a bus and will be sent away. Okay. I know, back at the old place, we just would have been led gently to four extra. Four extra. And then after that, our security passes wouldn't have been allowed to work. But then they didn't work, did they? That's what they did to us. I tell you what, that is so brutal. It's so brutal. There was an earlier episode of our previous podcast where we tried to gain access to Radio 2. I got in, but Fee didn't. You were trapped. It was ironic because I'd worked there.

58:43They didn't recognise that. Oh, showbiz is so bloody cruel. It's very, very cruel. Really, really is. Have you seen the extended advert for the BBC? Oh, gosh, I was going to mention that, actually. I did I did see it not in situ because there was so much talk about it that I looked at it this morning and I don't know it's really difficult it is horribly indulgent and must have cost a fortune and I'm sorry I do want to know how much the people who appeared in the ad were paid for appearing in the ad and there are some weird inclusions I mean Louis Theroux how much does he actually do for the BBC these days but he's in it Romesh Ranganathan is the host, loosely speaking, of this big promotional thing about the BBC.

59:27And he does everything on the BBC, so I get his involvement. I don't know. I think it's a bit of a misstep because I can't, I think it's going to irritate those people who clearly have an axe to grind with the BBC, don't you think? I think so, yeah. But I tell you what, I would love to have been in some agent's offices when that first went out and they were on the receiving end of phone calls to people who weren't in it because there are some quite notable absences. What, people who have been appalled that they're not asked? Yes, very much so. I think there would be some quite stroppy phone calls made.

1:00:06Well, not everyone can be... What? As soon as we start talking about the BBC. That's when they cut us off, you see. OK, very last one from me. Helen, if you've got bunions, flip-flops are the answer. Fair enough, good point, well made. Right, that brings whatever this was to a conclusion. Who are our guests this week? So you're doing Lisa Jewell tomorrow. This week is Man Week. Harry Hardistry is a very interesting man who just started extolling the virtues of his own personal therapy online and it absolutely took off. He's now got 25 billion followers and we're going to talk to him about the things that he recommends to people, especially women who are coming out of relationships is feeling a little bit rejected and dejected.

1:00:52That seems to be his USP. So we thought we needed to hear more from him. Satnam Sangher has written an absolutely beautiful book about the life and times of George Michael. So he is in this week as well. And much more seriously, Richard Coker is a doctor who some people will have read an interview with him in the Times magazine over the weekend. I do urge you to have a look at that. He has said something in public that not many doctors have said, and he has said that he helped patients on their way. He assisted their dying. And he says all, this is a direct quote, all good doctors have assisted dying.

1:01:38Now, that's quite a thing to say. And of course, it may very well be true. um so we are going to talk to richard this week as well there's there's a book attached to the interview that he gave to the times and um that well there's no dancing around this the conversation is about is going to be about death dying and our attitudes towards it and indeed towards assisted dying yeah i'm so glad that he has been brave enough to put his head above the parapet and talk about this and there are so many questions not least how can he when there are such penalties for other people outside the medical profession who might be found to have done the same thing well um there is there's a lot to this yeah not least the the impact of that dreadful man harold shipman yeah uh which happened a long time ago now and some people may not really remember the case but it is still having such an impact on the way we treat terminally ill people in Britain.

1:02:40So that's later in the week. So it is a full-on man week. Strap yourself in. Everybody's welcome. We need some thoughts about insomnia. And we're very, very happy to give details about your rhinos tomorrow. Anything else? Buttons. Buttons as well. Yes. Tell us about your buttons. That will really, really upset people who can't stand them. Funnily enough, I don't like saying the word either. much. We've got to wrap. So we don't need to find that. Bye. Bye. Bye. Gosh, Eve's so stern. She's you. Yeah, bye.

1:03:28Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

1:04:31Transcription by CastingWords Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Pessimism. It's never going to improve a disconnected healthcare system. Next. So what will? At Optum, we're working every day to connect primary, specialty and pharmacy care and help lower prescription costs. Will we fix it all overnight? No. But we'll wake up trying again and again until healthcare works as one for everyone. That's healthy optimism.

1:05:10Learn more at Optum.com.