I come from a long line of silly men...

0:00Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. requires iPhone 11 or later. Dominic O 'Connell and Hannah Previtt here from The Business Podcast.

0:33Join us for a special episode with President of the British Chambers of Commerce and former Chief Economist at the Bank of England, Andy Haldane, and PwC's UK tax leader, Claire Blackburn, as we look ahead to John Healy's first budget. We'll discuss the challenge he faces trying to get the economy growing with an uncertain geopolitical backdrop and a party that's not keen on making cuts to public spending. We'll also ask what businesses are looking for, whether the government will be in a position to deliver or if more tax squeezes are on the way. Listen to the business wherever you get your podcasts.

1:08Hi, this is Nikayla Matthews-O 'Conway from SideHustle Pro. This holiday, the difference between buyers just checking things out and checking out comes down to the last few clicks. PayPal Checkout is a trusted conversion engine fueled by 400 million active PayPal and Venmo accounts. at PayLater and turn holiday shoppers into regulars. 96 % of PayLater shoppers are repeat users. PayPal is built for all business. Get started at paypal.com slash business. Disclaimer, PayPal PayLater data, eight markets, March 2025 to February 2026. Repeat users more than one PayLater purchase in the past year.

1:55Are we going to do it? What time's Robbie coming in? He's coming at 12. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's see how far we get. Yeah, we can always take a break in between. Do you know what? I'm... And I don't think... I don't think Uncle Rupert will mind. I'm going to take this sellotape home with me, Eve, because I discovered, as I was doing a thorough tidy of the house, now one of my adult children is up, up and away, I discovered some damaged notes some£10 notes that are basically because the new ones are a bit plasticky Oh, they're unrippable, aren't they? Well, oh that's what they're meant to be but I reckon if you've put them accidentally through a tumble dryer and then sat on them weirdly I think they can break so I found this very weird pile of kind of broken notes which I'm going to take this very nice sellotape home and try and mend.

2:52And then I was trying to think this morning, where are the best places I could spend that where people aren't going to kick up a fuss? Maybe a corner shop. Yes, maybe. It is still legal tender amended note. Yes. I think more questions need to be asked about how they were broken. Yeah, it is quite strange. I've got one of them with me. I'll show you later. It's very odd. There might be, you're absolutely right, there might be something going down that I don't quite understand. Tumble dried and sat on and it's happened multiple times. As I was saying that, Eve, I thought that's a bit weird. What's going to happen now?

3:29Will people come and take me away? Quite possibly. Now, look, let's just apologise. I need to apologise for some break in the already slightly broken proceedings last week, but I went down with a bug and actually I had to go and get some antibiotics in order to lift a bit of chestiness and apparently there is a bug going around. It may have come from Australia. you that's what i'm gonna say and you could end up having a cough for months so that's heartening to know isn't it anyway i'm sorry about the end of last week i just had to take to my bed the very good news though is that jane and i will be reunited on stage at cheltenham so if you're coming to cheltenham on thursday to the times and sunday times literature festival then you'll be able to see Jane Garvey in person.

4:17We'll be doing our shtick. We do the show live from somewhere on the kind of the campus of the festival, don't we? We actually do the afternoon show. I think they call it sort of like Times Square. Times Square. Okay. The first time that we did it was quite funny because we were just on a table in the big bookshop that they put up there and we both had our headphones on, but they were those headphones with a microphone attachment to them. And we genuinely just looked like we were the help desk and we were trying to do for the ongoings of the toilet we were trying to do very very serious interviews there was actually a horrendous news story that had emerged into the world the week that we went to Cheltenham the first time around so it was no laughing matter at all but as we were trying to do these pretty hefty news interviews people were just coming over and consistently asking us where the ladies toilets were and what time the Reverend Richard Coles was going to be appearing.

5:14But do you know what, I bet you knew both of those things. We did. And also, Jo and I are too polite to just say, excuse me, I'm just in the middle with a very important interview about the Camp David Accords. No, we didn't say that. We just said, yes, I think the lady's just down there. I think he's on at three. So we've moved up in the world now and we're in a special Times Radio area and Annika Rice is going to be our guest on stage. We run to the stage at 3.30 and she is on to talk about her memoir challenge which is mind-boggling actually I have read that word for word she details so much of her early life which explains so much of her later life and she does it in a very honest way she didn't have the very best of starts not in terms of being on the poverty line or things like that but just in terms of her parents attention they had a kind of attention deficit disorder towards her which she talks about quite a lot and tries to explain to us the reader and very much to herself along the way why that informs so many of her choices like you know jumping out of helicopters later on in life so it's a right rollicking read she's always a fabulous guest we're very much hoping that she'll come in a jumpsuit although for live radio jumpsuits a nightmare you just want it you just You don't want to be unzipping and zipping up something on a very, very tight toilet break, Keith.

6:42Especially in this, it's quite nippy at the moment. It is nippy. But she must be such a pro at it by now. She must be able to get in and out of a jumpsuit quicker than anyone. You would hope so. Yeah. The jumpsuit's just dangerous though, isn't it? And the boiler suit made a return to fashion over the last couple of years and so many people said the same thing. You only do this once, hopefully, but you've got to make sure you know where the arms are when you take the boiler suit off in order to have a wee. It's become a bit of a thing now as well that you can't really do a series of traitors without someone donning a...

7:16So I think James Blunt was in a kind of pilot-esque jumpsuit and then the year before, the normal traitors, there was Stephen who won and he was in this colourful block. Oh yes, he was very fission, wasn't he? Very, very fission. Sometimes I see him round our neck of the woods. I saw him the other week at Exmouth Market. Did you? With Rachel, his co-winner. Oh my word. They were having a dinner. They were having a dinner. Double spot, isn't it? I bet some gossip was going down at that meal. Oh, I bet it was. I wonder how the normal traitors feel when Celebrity Traitors is on. Do they watch it with relish?

7:53Do they feel slightly usurped? Can you ever really enjoy it again after you've been on it? I don't know. When you're on the celebrity treaters, there's not quite so much at stake. So maybe... Well, there was for Amol.

8:10That was a lot. I felt very bad for him. Did you? I did. Because there is a man, and Amol Rajan will not mind me saying this about him. I'm not saying it in a nasty way at all, but he really, really wants to be out there. You know, that's his thing. He wants to make this connection with people and he wants to be the deliverer of news and insight and information, all that kind of stuff. So, no, he must be absolutely gutted to go out first. Just gutted. I also think he'd relish in being a traitor a lot more, well, anyone would relish in it more than James Acaster. So isn't this weird? We're watching somebody being a traitor who is also playing properly, properly playing at being a faithful.

8:52Yeah. Where's it going to end, Eve? I think some people are actually finding it quite an unenjoyable watch this year because they're so, they're such resistant. Yeah, you want a Richard E. Grant. You just want somebody who's completely and utterly in it to win it and who's enjoying being dastardy because it is odd watching people struggle with it, isn't it? Don't struggle, darling. Just play the game. No, just play the game. It's all right. Yeah, we know. We'll still like you. Are you watching Youth or is that... I'm not, but I feel like everybody is. Okay. I only ask you that in a kind of, oh, are you watching it at all?

9:27Because this is Sharon Horgan's latest comedy and she plays a 50-something sandwich generation mother of one back on the dating scene. It is so, so poignant, I think, for women in particular of a certain age. And actually, no, I'm going to retract on that. People of a certain age, because some of the dating scenes with older men, I think, are really, really, really spot on. I wondered whether it is of interest to other generations well I know that Jane loved it but then Scott Bryant hated it oh yes so I wonder if that's indicative but one of my friends was actually saying that they're watching it and I thought then oh maybe I would actually like it because I thought after the Scott Jane debacle was it a debacle?

10:12it was a bit of a debacle it was a debacle it was a debacle I thought maybe oh I'll give it a miss but now I'm being persuaded but I've only just got round to Rivals season two. So I'm deep in the bonk. Okay. I'm not watching Rivals season two because I was just so upset at the character who died at the end of Rivals season two, part one, part two, season two, part one. I've just started season two, part one. I'm going to stop this conversation. We will pick it up. We will pick it up in about six weeks' time. Forget it. Forget it. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Forget it. moving on moving it on if anybody else is watching if anyone else is watching youth and you're outside of the target area but you're still finding it very funny it would be lovely to know that there are some lines in that which are so brutal um i almost have to pause the television and just sit in quiet contemplative silence for a couple of moments um and digest it all i think the character played by the, who's playing the kind of older, older guy who Sharon Horgan is dating, I think that is so so beautifully written and I'm only halfway through the series, in fact you have to wait a week for it to drop.

11:37I don't like that. I quite like that. Horgan's back to the olden days. I don't like that at all. I've got to wait to find out what happens to him. But I hope it comes good, because he's, I feel sorry for him. Anyway, if you're not watching it it's been irrelevant the last five minutes of conversation all the best comes from joe from bath i've been listening to your wise words aimed at those of us grappling with offspring starting university for the first time i am one such parent it's fair to say i haven't heard much from my son and i work on the principle that no news is good news joe it's all we can cling to isn't it today's message was simply this no dear mum etc just straight to the point are the towels you gave me lights or darks?

12:19Well, Jo, I think you're absolutely fine. He's fine. What a great message. And also, you've brought him up very well to know that there is jeopardy involved in a wash if you don't get it right. Jo goes on to say, at least it proves that A, he's alive and B, he's doing some laundry and I'll take that. And Jo says, my friend and fellow book clubber and I will be in Cheltenham to see you both on Thursday. Very much looking forward to it. We are looking forward to seeing you all there as well. And Jane is hoping to make it. It is her soft relaunch back into the world of the show and the podcast. So we look forward to seeing you too.

12:57I think that's an absolute banger of a message. Yes, and he's asking the right questions. He is, isn't he? Yeah. And I wonder whether or not he actually then did the right thing because it's one thing to ask about the washing, it's another thing to be able to put it into practice. And you would say you only do it once, you put a sock in with a whitewash, but as we all know, that's not true. That goes on for the rest of your life. I was incredibly grateful to Fi, who joins us from Adelaide, who just had to flick this screenshot to us that she just snapped from X. I thought of you immediately and your past encounter with Geoffrey Archer.

13:33Now this is a screenshot from a bloke called Philip Adams, who's a national treasure in Australia and former broadcaster with ABC Radio National and I'm sure does agree with you about the late Geoffrey Archer. Hang on in there until your sidekick returns and until then have an extra wee cheeky glass of fizz might as well. Well, that's very, very good advice for you. I'm not going to read out what the screenshot says, but I just want to say that I was really, really grateful to you for sending it because it's a tricky one, this, isn't it, Eve? When somebody who has a controversial past, and that is what Geoffrey Archer had, dies, is it appropriate to immediately start dissecting that past and to include it in the sentiments about somebody's death, which inevitably leaves people who know and love that person feeling sad or bereft or shocked or whatever.

14:31Do you think that there is a time, for us people in the broadcasting world, where we should only say nice things about people who die? I think immediately is where it gets a bit tricky because it's very raw for a lot of people and I think a lot of people find that quite disrespectful, which I think is fair enough. It does just leave you then when you're listening to tributes with a lot of clichés and dancing around someone's character. But I think eventually it's acceptable to have that conversation and I think it's not just to say the good things. Yes, I completely agree, Eve. And I get that point about not wanting to hurt people who are in the moment very shocked.

15:14And actually I think we're always very careful, certainly here on this station, to never do that because of course when you get news of an eminent person or a controversial person, or I think the word that was used so often about Geoffrey Archer, a colourful person, dies, you've got to be aware, haven't you, as a producer, that everybody who you then phone, you might be the person actually delivering news about that death. So you've got them all listed in the contacts, but they might not know. And that's a horrible phone call to be on the receiving end of. And it's a horrible phone call to make.

15:49So, you know, you do have to be very, very careful about that. And also recognise that, you know, people can have a deeply disturbing and dark or just difficult backgrounds, but it doesn't mean that the public don't love them. I mean, that's just the truth. It's just an absolute truth. Unfortunately, yeah. So it is quite complicated, but I do think you have to be honest about somebody's life and Geoffrey Archer's life, you know, it hurts some people around him as well. I'm not sure we'd do a great service to any human being if we completely and utterly disregard that, Eve. And I think you can do it in a respectful and intelligent, measured way that isn't just a character assassination, but just looks at facts.

16:32Yes, or some personal experiences that you've had with that individual themselves. Doesn't need to be sensationalised. Yeah, Sophia in Adelaide. Well done you. And I don't, I haven't come across Philip Adams before. I'll track him down and I'll follow him, but I'm not on X anymore, so I hope he's on the gram. Please remind me, says Best Wishes Helen, of the name of the older male author whose detective stories you recommended, I remember, I think he's a retired teacher, but his name escapes me. Internet searching hasn't helped. Peter Granger. Real name Robert Partridge, but he writes the DC Smith Kingslake detective stories under the name of Peter Granger.

17:11I've always enjoyed your recommendations. Use them to choose books as gifts for friends and family. We'll definitely be getting The Great Dictator for gifting this year. Now, there was another email actually that mentioned my obsession with The Great Dictator, which is the wonderful biography by Matthew Sweet of Barbara Cartland. I'm not obsessed by it. I just think it is terrific, terrific, terrific. And if you're going to buy one book for somebody this Christmas in that category of, I don't always know what to buy this person, honestly, I'll buy that. There is something for everybody in that book.

17:41Absolutely everybody. Matthew Sweet's been written up in The Times again today. Yes. I think he said something at Cheltenham. And I was in Waterstones yesterday and it's got a massive display. It really is. It's a book of the moment. Yeah, it really is, isn't it? Yeah, everyone's absolutely loving it. Yeah, it's very high quality writing. I mean, it's properly laugh out loud funny. His payoff lines are just superb sometimes. And he's got a lot of material to work with. With Bobby Carlin. So, and he's done it well. He's worked it well. Andy says, Fee's mention of a urine test the other day relating to drugs taken for the ongoing cold reminded me of a curious tale relating to my husband who used to be a professional footballer, a goalkeeper.

18:20He was regularly drug tested, gulping down tons of water post-match in order to provide the obligatory sample. One day he was told he'd failed his drug test. Further tests and perplexed discussions ensued as his body was producing a hormone that only boxers and, wait for it, breastfeeding women produce. I was breastfeeding at the time and was so thrilled that finally, finally, my breastfeeding work had been given the credit it deserved. In the early days it did feel like being in the ring with Mike Tyson. and let's not forget what he did to somebody's ear. Anyway, it turned out my husband was battered like a boxer from diving on the ground all the time.

18:58But for me, it was validation of how difficult breastfeeding can be in those early days. Isn't that fascinating? It's amazing. It's quite mental, yeah. So we are producing the same hormone or whatever in our bodies when we're breastfeeding as great big muscle-bound men who are physically finding themselves up against it. I think that fact needs amplification, Andy. And we are very, very glad that the amplification has started here. I gave you, I think, a couple of emails about appalling male behaviour in public places. Shall we do that? Shall we get into it before Robbie... Yes. Oh, yes, Robbie Millen.

19:37Bashes into the room. Robbie Millen will enter in about eight minutes' time. Yes, brace yourselves. Yeah, do some deep breathing, everybody. body steady yourself against something firm this comes in from dawn after a very disturbed night i feel i have to write in i like many others fall asleep whilst being lulled by a winding conversation a shock last night to hear the email from the lady who dealt with abuse on public transport it took me back to a time years ago when a similar thing happened to me on a packed commuter train i was struck dumb and much to my shame allowed the man to carry on the way he did i was surrounded by other men and when he got off one of them said I'm so sorry I thought he was with you I could tell all the men felt the same I didn't respond there was no further conversation I was embarrassed when you describe the character of the men who do this in plain sight it resonated so loudly with me they rely on silent crowds I didn't want a sleepless night and to relive that moment of shame that still fills me but I want to say thank you for raising this topic and making it a safe place to discuss what is happening everywhere you are right that if we all talk about it together then we can equip ourselves to deal with these situations we need to not feel shame but know that these people need reporting we need to feel a power in knowing what to do before it happens thanks for being a safe space for women everywhere dawn brilliant dawn and you're totally and utterly right we just need to put some thought into it and i think we just also need to look up a bit when we're on public transport, catch the eye of people who are trying to catch your eye, you know, because they're in troubled circumstances.

21:17I think part of the problem isn't because we're just all face down in a phone and, of course, if you're a perv bloke, you look around, you see everybody's busy and you think, right, now's my opportunity. Mary says, I often think to email you as snake's feeding habits and love of tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow being recent examples, but I never seem to get round to it. But this time it's for good reason. It's to highly recommend the Susie Lamplew Trust Stand Up to Harassment training courses. This is a free half-hour online course that anybody can access, which gives really good practical advice about what to do as a bystander witnessing harassment in a public place.

21:59It was recommended by a colleague and it's now rolled out across the organisation at which I work. I hope you can send this out to the collective. we all have those times when you see something that doesn't seem right but you're not quite sure what to do about it and this gives you some tools that can really help so fantastic practical advice lots of people have been in touch with our book club choice eve how close are we to making it jane is back we think on monday um so i think shall we come to a conclusion by the end of next week once Jane's back. Lovely that's good so if anybody wants to squeeze in a last recommendation we are looking for books that are being or have been really enjoyed by young male readers so that is the kind of um the tagline for our next book.

22:52And we've had such a varied suggestions which is heartening in a way because it gives us a lot of choice but it's not that young men are already specifically reading one thing. Yeah, I agree. I think they've been put in a box, haven't they? Yeah, it's been enlightening. Yeah, I don't think they should. Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push.

23:30Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Dominic O 'Connell and Hannah Privet here from The Business Podcast. Join us for a special episode with President of the British Chambers of Commerce and former Chief Economist at the Bank of England, Andy Haldane, and PwC's UK tax leader, Claire Blackburn, as we look ahead to John Healy's first budget. We'll discuss the challenge he faces trying to get the economy growing with an uncertain geopolitical backdrop and a party that's not keen on making cuts to public spending.

24:09We'll also ask what businesses are looking for, whether the government will be in a position to deliver or if more tax squeezes are on the way. Listen to the business wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Nikayla Matthews-O 'Conway from SideHustle Pro. This holiday, the difference between buyers just checking things out and checking out comes down to the last few clicks. PayPal Checkout is a trusted conversion engine fueled by 400 million active PayPal and Venmo accounts. Add Pay Later and turn holiday shoppers into regulars. 96 % of Pay Later shoppers are repeat users. PayPal is built for all business.

24:46Get started at paypal.com slash business. Disclaimer, PayPal Pay Later data, eight markets, March 2025 to February 2026. repeat users more than one pay later purchase in the past year. Should be. This comes in from Eloise, who says, now you're not the only person who's recommended this. Hot dudes reading. It's a Facebook group. It's a meme. It's whatever it is. It's hot dudes. It's a movement. Reading books. So it's a bit like hot priests. They may or may not be priests. these young gentlemen may or may not be reading the book. Would that be about right? And Louise says, it's not hot dude spotted in Reading Town Centre.

25:35It is candid photos of hot men reading in situ, whether at a cafe, train station or park benches, for instance. Go and look at that in your private time, everybody. I have personal experience of boys and reading and I can honestly say that my three boys have always been far more enthusiastic readers than my daughter ever has. Felix, my youngest, turns 17 tomorrow. and is still an avid reader. It was only a couple of years ago when he was 14 that I discovered that he had somehow assumed that libraries had completely shut down after Covid. He'd gone into Reading Town Centre and phoned me to ask if I could send him some money to buy Diary of a Wallflower.

26:10I told him we already had a copy at home so there was no need to buy it but also pointed out with a book like that, surely he should be borrowing from the library. Cue the delighted realisation that libraries weren't just open again but that he could borrow comics too. He's never grown out of comics, although much like his reading taste, they have become considerably darker since his Be No Days. Now, this is a list of young Felix's most recent reads. So bear in mind, he is 17 years old. Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess. Bell Jar, The Bell Jar by Cynthia Sylvia Plath. Wowza. I know, at the age of 16.

26:46Oh my gosh. Fight Club by Chuck Palanwick. Paladin week I didn't do you know what shame on me I mean is that Fight Club from Fight Club was Fight Club originally a book should I give it Michael Bublé yes do you want to give it a Michael Bublé yeah Requiem for a Dream by Hubert Selby Jr and Call Me By Your Name by Andre Ackerman which I must say is the only one that really appeals to me I'm taking him to Cyprus for a post GCSE trip in the upcoming half term and I'm going to look forward to seeing what he takes to read and whether we can bond over it. I will take my Jane and Fee off their tote bag to carry our books and my Kindle to the pool each day, but no doubt he will carry on the tradition of reading whilst we're walking to dinner or see the sights.

27:35Do you know what? There's nothing more pleasurable than seeing a person so hooked on a book, they're reading it whilst walking down a street. How do you not hit a lump post, though? I don't know, but you always just think, God, make a note of whatever that book title is because it's probably unputdownable. And it was the Fight Club of the same name, so that's our ignorance. Yeah, that is absolutely our ignorance. Robbie's entered, everybody. My cough's suddenly come back. It's as if I'm nervous. You sent some lovely pictures. I feel like I should have some theme music, shouldn't I, when I enter the room?

28:07Now, what a lovely idea, Robbie Millen. What theme music would you choose? Probably Rocky or something like that. Really? Something. Doom, doom, doom. Eye of the Tiger. Yeah. That kind of thing. Okay. Something a bit sort of upmarket. Right. What do you think? Or the flumps. The theme tune to the flumps. I know. You don't scream Eye of the Tiger to me. That's very rude, isn't it? It is. It's only Monday. It's not even midday, Robbie. I just let myself go a little bit over the weekend, didn't I? I'm not so ripped as normal. Well, I tell you what. I mean, whenever I've turned on my radio, you seem to have been popping up or someone's been promising me that you're going to pop up or someone's referring to the fact that you popped up.

28:54You've been quite busy, haven't you? Popping up here and there. No, I was at the Cheltenham Literature Festival. Yes, I was. It's so exhausting just talking constantly. I don't know how you lot do it. Well, it makes us ill. No, God. You've got amazing stamina and self-belief. Thank you. Stop now. Okay. I need to read you this email. It comes from Sarah, who is 58 and lives in northern Norway. I've just listened to the pod where Robbie Millen came on to chat about a bunch of mad-sounding books. I'll probably give the one about the Nazi death camp survivors ago, but definitely not the one about the murmuration of flying blokes over the Kent coast.

29:36It's maybe the way I sold it. You didn't have built any either. Anyway, my point is that I absolutely love it when Robbie comes on your show. his enthusiasm, dry humour, wit, double entendre and general silliness make me literally laugh out loud. Well, silly. I'm probably a public intellectual. You're probably a public intellectual. Oh, I don't know, Robbie, are you? Do you know what? You don't ever be a public intellectual. I think I'm from a long line of silly men. I think my dad's a bit silly and my grandfather was a bit silly. But my great-grandfather before him was definitely silly. OK. Well, this is joyful for all of the women in the family.

30:17Are they the very serious ones? I mean, they're thoroughly entertained. I just think they stop listening. They just tune out. OK. Sarah's got more. Oh, I like Sarah. I seem to recall that earlier this year, some old bag wrote in to complain about his banter with your Jane, citing inappropriate flirting, unprofessionalism. Inappropriate flirting? When is it ever appropriate? Well, it's in the workplace. It's not anymore, Robbie. No, I know. It's 2026. No, thank you. I think Jane and Fee have fantastic chemistry with Robbie. And the banter between the three of you and young Eve is hilarious. Life-affirming, in fact.

30:59The world is a rather grim place at the moment. And a bit of spontaneous silliness, daft innuendo and off-the-cuff nonsense is exactly what we need. That old bag can go and do one and take on the streets. To do one. I swear. So more Robbie, please. And also more of his brilliant female team of book experts. I was going to say, they are very good. They are very good. My young women. Yes, they are. Although I don't own them, obviously. They're to me on loan. No, they're not. I value them. No, they come to work of their own volition. They do. And they put up with you. Yes, they do. Yeah. I've downloaded quite a few of their recommendations over the years because they come across as proper down-to-earth human beings who genuinely love books and know what makes a cracking read.

31:40None of that being stuck up their own fundamentals. Oh, gosh. Fundaments. As some of the literary world would seem rather prone to. Yes. And Sarah's PS, I've already seen the Northern Knights this year while dragging the bins out the other night, who said Glamour is dead. Well, that's the joy. What a fantastic email. It's a joy of living in Northern Norway. The sort of purge of taking out the bins and seeing the Northern Knights. Yeah. Isn't that beautiful? High and low. Do you find much silliness in your peers in the publishing and book world? Oh, well, now there's a question. No, I seek them out.

32:15Because there's a lot of solemnity around in literature. Because they think, you know, they're saving the world through fine writing. And you think, well, that'd be nice if that happened. But I do kind of think that publishing is part of the entertainment industry. it's what people do in their private time isn't it personal time reading books so it ought to make it entertaining is that a radical view no it's not a radical view at all i mean it's one that we would absolutely uh condone and applaud on this podcast because actually what what we've tried to do with the fantastic guests that eve books from the world of books and when we choose our podcast book club books is to avoid that stuff where people seem to be up their own what's-its looking for something unnecessary in a book and just way too much reading between the lines and finding something that challenges you and actually i'm with you i want my reading to be entertaining yes i mean that can be quite a serious thing but it's got to be written with a kind of energy and liveliness yeah and and the over challenge of a book just always puts me off when anyone says it's challenging for its readers yes i just think that's a euphemism for it's just really it's incomprehensible it's just bad well i was listening to the radio this morning another channel one of the bbc ones and they were introducing an author and they said uh Her novels tend to explore trauma and family violence.

33:56And my hand just reached the radio, bing, and off it went. Yep. We don't want that. No, we're the silly division. We are the silly division. And also, we take commercials.

34:12And we're fine with that. Have you read Meg Mason's latest book? No, I haven't. To be honest, it's got terrible reviews. Is that the wrong thing to say? Are you about to announce she's coming in right now? No. So I absolutely loved Sorrow and Bliss. That was a huge sensation. Was her standout novel. I really, really, really enjoyed that. And I do have her latest one on my bedside table. But I haven't yet started it. It's hard when your previous one had... It was a real talking point novel. It was one of those quarter mood. I think it was sort of at the end, was it 2022? I can't remember. Anyway, I think everyone fell upon it.

34:54Well, it was just very clever as well, because you didn't really realise until quite far into the book just how bad the protagonist's mental illness was. Yes, exactly. And it made you think about all of the characteristics that we allow to convince us that somebody doesn't have an illness that they need help with, actually. Which is a great example of taking something very serious and writing about it in a way which sort of beguiles the reader in. Because if you said, oh, this is a novel about mental ill health, a lot of people might just stop. Metaphorically switch the radio off. Metaphorically switch their minds off.

35:32Yeah. Well, this comes in from Rosie, who says, oh, this was the email referring to my obsession with Matthew Sweet. I'm not obsessed. I'm not obsessed with him. Just like the book. I am obsessed. I interviewed him on stage on Saturday at the Cheltenham Literature Festival. Yes. And he is terrific. He's such a beguiling talker. And I have to say, will this be kept in this little element? You know, you're talking about advertising. I'm going to advertise his book. It's called The Great Detail. And it's just a tremendous biography of Barbara Cartland, who's sort of slipped down the memory hole. I can see Eve looking at me with that kind of, who is Barbara Cartland?

36:10I didn't really know who she was. She's the great romantic fiction writer of her time, but she died in 2000, so now it's completely forgotten. But it's such a terrific book, which is simple. I mean, because she looked mad with the kind of the big pink frocks and the hair and the kind of white face and the strange eyelashes. But it's such a sympathetic biography, but also very funny. Because essentially she's ludicrous. I think it's... I'm talking too much. No, you're not talking too much. There's no such thing. No such thing. When Matthew came in, he said that he owes you a dinner because of how much you've been tooting.

36:44I know. People will think that some money has been given to me. But this is... I have one book a year where I allow myself to be completely ridiculous about and mention it all times. This is... Matthew Sweet's book is my... Is 2026. Yes. Well, I think that's a very good choice. I would join you on that. I thought it was just so well written. Yeah, definitely. And just did that thing that a good biography should do, which is you think that you know somebody and it really flips the stereotype on its head. Because there was a lot of sneering about her. And he makes a really lovely case because, I mean, I asked him, you know, is the actual quality of the writing much good?

37:31Because, no, I read a bit of, I think it was called A Virgin in Mayfair as preparation. and it sort of clips along you know i'm not gonna wasn't too saucy either which was a bit of a disappointment oh no i suppose not at some stage i think she stops being one i think that might be the point right sorry a little tease of a title isn't it that made me forget what i'm talking about oh i know but he talked she was brilliant at she answered every letter that was sent to her except the sort of ones, creepy, weird ones. And she had a great rapport with her readers, which Matthew thought were probably sort of, well, probably quite, certainly in the initial years, I mean, she was writing from the 1920s onwards, sort of working-class lasses, kind of new readers almost, who were a bit probably naive about the world.

38:28And I think they found the way she talked about love and such like kind of reassuring and sort of lovely. Yeah. Well, I mean, her books, she sold 570 million books. Loads. I mean, it is a lot. Yeah. Well, I think only Shakespeare and Agatha Christie outsold her. I know. Not even Geoffrey Archer. Yes. Sold that much. We talked a bit about Geoffrey Archer. We can park it. Can I just finish this email from Rosie? Great, it's your show. It says, in response to Fee's obsession with Matthew Sweet and his new book, she may enjoy Meg Mason's new book, Sophie Standing There. It's about a woman who meets an author she idolises at a book event.

39:06Oh, yes. And the bizarre friendship that grows out of their meeting. It's a classic never-meet-your-heroes tale. My friend and I went to a talk with Meg Mason at Brighton's Waterstones, which felt quite meta meeting the author. It would, wouldn't it? Yes, it would do. I love talking about her book with a woman meeting the author they love. Meg played up to this brilliantly and even pretended to be a stroppy-demanding author at one point, much to the delight of the audience. I would be interested to hear if any listeners have ever made friends with people they idolise, famous or otherwise, and the joys or repercussions of this.

39:39Now, this is a very pertinent email as well, because Rachel Cusk's latest novel is the same kind of thing. Absolutely. Isn't it? What's it called? The Life of M? Yes. Look at me, I'm on form, I can even remember titles. Which is meant to be about the real life interaction between her and Natalie Portman. Natalie Portman. Yeah, this is all so meta. God, we're getting deep here. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. This is only, it's Monday. Yeah. Look how far we, no, I mean, that's the thing. I wouldn't want to be friends with Rachel Cusk because she's like a magpie. She'll steal something from your life and put it into, put it onto the pages of a book, which is what great novelists do.

40:23Yeah. Do you ever find that when you interview an author, it actually slightly takes the shine off your ability as a reader to just lose yourself in their work? Well, not always. Sometimes you can sort of hear their voice a bit better. That's one of the good things about literary festivals. When you either hear the author talk about their own book it does add a little bit of extra. I don't think it spoils it. I mean, unless you sort of really dislike an author and find it too hard to sort of get away from that. But I actually think sort of hearing them talk about the book, you can tune into their wavelength a bit better on the page.

41:05Yeah, I mean, literary festivals have become so successful, haven't they? Yeah, I think they're sort of popping up a bit more at the moment because they had a period of sort of, I think COVID was bad for all live events. but I think it's that urge to just sort of gather together with other kind of open-minded, like-minded people and talk about, dare I say it, ideas and books and things like that and it's really rather lovely. It makes me feel a lot more optimistic. Yes. Especially when these people, I'm on a stage and all those people turned out for me, darling. Darling, darling. I think people have good discernment and taste.

41:47Very much so, very much so. But it is a heartwarming. I just think it's the, it's so easy, especially if you attach your phone to get very doom scrolly. There's nothing like getting out in the world and actually seeing, you know, because readings are solitary activities, so you wouldn't know people are up to it. But when they gather together en masse to sort of see an author or whatever, it's really lifts the spirits. I think it's absolutely wonderful. And I'm always so bowled over by how fabulous authors can be because they would be the least likely people to be on a stage and to be jazz hands and to be entertaining.

42:25But so many of them put so much work into becoming that person. I think they're absolutely brilliant. And actually, we've got Bonnie Gamas coming up, haven't we, who gives great interview. Liam Moriarty gives great interview. Harlan Coburn, exceptional interview. Really? Yes, really good interview. We like him.

42:45he gives very similar answers to questions because he's asked the same kind of questions all around the world but he delivers them as if it is the best question he's never been asked it before and the audience lean forward to hear his answers but it's a knack to be able to do that and I just hand it to authors because I think that's not on the skill set page Well, no, and certain authors, it's a sort of selective process as well, because some authors aren't very good at it, and they kind of, if you ask them, so where do you get your ideas from? Well, that's a terrible question, Bobby. So I think I'm with the author on that, especially if you're using that voice.

43:29Was it Terry Pratchett said, oh, I get them from W.H. Smith, or something like that, I can't remember what he said. Yeah. But, you know, obviously some just know how to, So I was on stage with, on stage with, yes, Lionel Shriver, who everyone tends to think is quite fierce because she's got quite a cold blue eyes that kind of fix you if you say something too silly. But she's very funny and she knows how to sort of mix sort of being kind of punchy and biting with great jokes. And she's great fun to be on stage with. Yeah, marvellous, marvellous. So basically what we're saying is Robbie Millian, great.

44:10Yes. Robbie Millian, great. On stage? Yes. On his own or with great authors of our time? Just Robbie Millian, great. I don't actually like being on stage. Do you not? No, no, I'm a retiring type. Oh, Robbie, you're born to perform. That's why we love you. Get away with you. But carry on a little longer. But it is a wonderful thing when you just, you can sit on stage with someone much smarter than yourself, much more talented and, you know, poke them, prod them and ask them questions and they perform and you kind of sit in the glow of adulation that sort of goes towards them from the audience. And by the end of the week at Cheltenham or something like that, I do feel a little bit like Mick Jagger.

44:57You know, it's amazing. I've got no idea where this is going to go. You know, just standing on stage and the love, you know, you're picking up on other people's love. So maybe not Mick Jagger, who was one of the less popular Rolling Stones? Bill Wyman. Bill Wyman. I feel like Bill Wyman then. It's terrible for your ego because you kind of think it's all about you. Yeah, but it is, Robbie. Possibly. It absolutely is. And you must never, never stop. Right. Shall we talk about your book choices? Yes. A Pass Without Pictures. Tell us about this. Yes, by a writer called Jonathan Ames. I love Jonathan Ames.

45:36So A Past Without Pictures is, he's really into, just recently he's been writing a lot of sort of L.A. noir type novels. He loves Ross MacDonald, Raymond Chandra, that kind of thing. And then lovely, so he's writing these short books, no more than 200 pages in that kind of neo-noir style. And this one, A Past Without Pictures, is he introduced a new character called, oh gosh, I can't read my handwriting, Maria Cole. There we go, yes, Maria Cole, who's kind of a young LAPD cop. She's been forced out because she accidentally shot dead a perp. And she ends up going to Alabama to solve her estranged father's murder.

46:22So she's sort of dealing with Alabama cops, who I must say probably are not very progressive or good people. But they're lovely, punchy little novels. But he wrote a sort of sequence before about a character called Happy Doll. Great name, isn't it? Who's a private eye, again, very sort of noirish. But he's got his great love of his life is his chihuahua, George. That's his strongest relationship. And George is a great character. So the first one's called Happy Doll. And they're terrific. But he's written loads of different types of novels. um so he wrote i mean he wrote he's got some great titles he wrote some essays called what's not to love the adventures of a mildly perverted young writer he's got a great sense of humor and he wrote a novel called wake up sir which is like a riff on uh jeeves and worcester he's a big woodhouse fan he's an american but found a woodhouse about a man who is a young writer beset by problems and whenever he sort of life's too much Jeeves appears and sorts everything out for him now is Jeeves real is it a big moment of imagination murmurations of men no but this is it's very funny and then he wrote another novel called the extra man which is an odd couple it's so great about a young male teacher gets forced out of his school misunderstanding over colleagues brassiere people can be very judgmental and then ends up moving to new york into this crummy flat with this elderly gentleman who's a walker he's a sort of a gigolo for incredibly ancient manhattan ladies socialites and it's a hilarious anyway so you can see he's quite an intriguing character and he wrote a sort of series a tv series called bore to death which was an hbo you can find it It's on the bowels of the TV, which had Jason Schwarzman in it, who's in those Wes Anderson films, which is a kind of comedy detective series, again in the wild.

48:23But he's kind of a genius, I think, but not very well known. No, not very well known at all. None of that has ever crossed my horizon, but every single one of those books sounds fantastic. I just love the notion of a teacher who had a misunderstanding with a colleague's brassiere. Yes, I know. Well, we've all crossed around an office. Have we? So there's a little cross-dressing element to the story, which is, in a non-threatening way, kind of beautiful. We can each explore ourselves, the kinks of our personality. Right, whilst keeping the HR handbook very close. I am at the moment wearing lovely red stilettos.

49:04Yes, he is. With my suit. And we're fine with that, Eve, aren't we? So that's Jonathan Ames, A-M-E-S. Yes, A-M-E-S. Eve's gone. She's absolutely gone. Come on, we're professionals. Come on. One last push. We can land this programme. Let's go... Has anyone got the forceps? Let's go to Chad Hardback. What? Yes, I know. What? I'm going to show you. It is a real name. No, that's crazy. Do you know what? Now, it's one of those, but I can't, I'm halfway through. And it's quite a chunky beast, 680, but I'm loving it. Right. So he wrote, this guy, Chad Harbach, he wrote a novel which came out in 2012, I think, called The Art of Fielding, set in a, it's about a young man at a Midwestern college who was going to hopefully become a professional baseball player.

50:02And then he has the yips, you know, and loses his nerve. and he sort of returned to the same college um chad our friend chad with this new book the brightness and it's a sort of campus novel which focuses around two young women that one in the early 20s one a bit later kind of more mature students and um their lives are obviously in your 20s he's obviously obsessed the author's obsessed with the 20s because that's a period when anything is kind of possible and this is kind of the moment isn't it when you make choices or choices are made for you which change the rest of your life and i think this novel is full of lovely detail i'm really it's amusing really well observed and essentially there's it's one of those canvas novels where you know every so often we see on the news some terrible sex scandal in american college usually seeing it at the moment exactly now yeah but this this one's slightly different where there's a prank where um some young women as a feminist prank almost or a political statement um stamp some words on some of the football players heads and it causes this great scandal and at the moment i don't know where it's going to go are they going to get expelled it's just and so it's kind of he's upturned the normal kind of um campus politics here but who knows where it's really good and do you know what you know how we talk about one of the big debates in the publishing world is about puffs on the back of books when you get an author saying you know hillary mantel the finest yeah whatever saying you must read this novel whatever um a lot of the time it's obviously guff it's just authors being nice to each other but there is a you know if you're smart about it and you look who's puffing a book it gives you a sort of sense of is it for you so like come to being the brooklyn author if you ever see him on the back of a book you know that the um it's a book which is either irish or gay or gay irish or something like that hillary mantel does a lot of puffing as well from beyond the graves yeah i know okay she was a very how does she do that i don't know she's a very was a very generous woman but i saw on the back of this i will not lose my thread i'm carrying on plowing on uh nathan hill author of wellness puff the book and i love a couple of years ago i went on about wellness so much everyone hated me for didn't want to hear it again and it's got the very similar vibe to wellness in that it's kind of midwestern state incredibly brilliant sort of detail about the way we live now with sort of lovely humour to it.

52:44Yeah, I didn't like wellness. What? Yeah. And I think I read it... I'm going to expel you from your own podcast. I think I read it on your recommendation. Oh, you're joking. You didn't like it. No, I found it just too detailed. I got so bogged down in the description, you know, of a window, a jar with its crittle framing and, you know, kind of the endless metaphor in the perfection, sought perfection of their lives. Yes, oh gosh, you're good at that. I just couldn't. Didn't you like the scene where the politics of Tupperware? No, I really liked Tupperware. And I don't think... Kittenner did it.

53:24Yes. Yeah, I couldn't, I just couldn't take it. I couldn't take the weight of it. That's what I couldn't take. Yeah. But I love this exploration of the puff things because actually I've got a couple of people in my mind's eye and I'm not going to say them out loud, but when I see them endorsing a book it puts me off because I think you endorse so many books yes that's true this is all part of a little kind of cleat that we're not really involved in but you kind of make us feel that we are I don't like it Robbie well that's useful as well then because it does tell you something about the book or at least how the publishers see the book yes but I also think there's a there's a lot of log rolling isn't there to use the phrase thank you that that's a very good phrase we'll leave it at that uh do you endorse books so you know gosh no no i sort of wouldn't recommend anyone do it i mean it's it's like uh occasionally when i'm asking someone to review a book how can you review a book this i think you'll like this book so and they'll go i puffed it so why did you do that so you read the book and didn't get paid for it and i was going to pay you to read the book and review it okay so that's a very sensible argument actually yeah we do get lifted a bit don't we jane and i from this podcast actually if we're talking about books we'll find a quote yeah yeah pitches up on a cover not always asked for not always you know agreed to yes that's all right yes i've sort of reviewed something we've spoken about yeah and because i have been in bookshops and thought does this book look interesting i wonder whether it kind of appeals and then I've seen I've already...

55:01You've appealed it. Yes. And I've known memory. Yeah, no, it is strange. Yes. I feel a little... I think we should all get together and do a separate podcast about this, a spin-off one. I think it's fascinating. Yeah, no, the art of puffery. I think I've definitely gone into Jane before and held a book up and said, Jane, do you want to interview this author? Because he's endorsed it. Your name's Jane, said, no, I've never heard of it. And I said, your name's on the cover. Well, I'll tell you what is dangerous, actually, is when you are simply trying to be polite about somebody's work and you have said what a remarkable addition to the canon of literature this is as a way of just moving swiftly on something you've actually enjoyed.

55:43And on the quote on the back it says, Jane Garvey called this a remarkable addition to the canon of literature. And that has happened. It just has. can we finally talk about never say war an intrepid journalist it's a non-fiction book from asne sayestat now forgive me i am not across her work should i be well you should be i should be okay yes um funny enough the i forgot the the name of the lady at the beginning who i loved was it not sarah from from norway sarah 58 yes she'll know about osney says because Osnesaestat is Norwegian. Right. And she wrote the book, Sarah O 'Karble. Oh, OK. So you do know her.

56:31So I do know her. That's terrible, isn't it? I just would not have recognised her written-down name from the correct pronunciation of it. I think I once was told it was pronounced Osne. Yeah. I think it's, to me, it would normally look Asne. Yes, yeah. But she's a brilliant journalist, proper reporter, goes out they're not a gab fest person like us um so never say war is um it's a really imaginative way of looking at putin's russia so we can go serious here um so essentially there was a man called andre medvedev who had been a young man um had volunteered to join the wagner group a russian a wagner group as a mercenary fought in ukraine for a bit and then eventually he sort of flitted over the border later on he returned to russia and sought asylum in norway because he was sort of he'd seen terrible things or so he said in ukraine execution of prisoners of war and things like that but he was a bit of a ne 'er-do-well and sort of since disappeared he sort of got in trouble with the police in norway but osney got to know him him interviewed him a lot and then went to russia to various places to sort of piece together his life and it's really using this one guy this um slightly you know i'm gonna say probably not a particularly pleasant young man but using his life to tell the story give a portrait of modern russia because he's got one of those sort of epically awful childhoods he grew up in kind of Siberia.

58:13His mother died in some kind of industrial accident. His father was supposedly a drunken, alcoholic, violent man. And he had this sort of crushed upbringing, sort of a bit hopeless. Hence why you think, oh, yeah, I'm going to join the Wagner group and die in Ukraine. Seems like a good option. And he sort of got, he was a brawler and a bit of a drinker himself. and it's sort of a way of trying to understand why is modern Russia like it is? And we definitely need to understand that, don't we? Because the cliché and the stereotype with which we view an entire nation is now so either outdated or unhelpful and it sounds fantastic.

59:00And it's sort of, there are bits of it that almost read like a novel and she's just because she's a journalist first a reporter first she doesn't really pass judgment on andre medvedev but instead she's just much more interested in trying to understand the world that made him yeah and do we know what happens to him do we know i mean i think at the moment he no one knows where he is i think he might be maybe nobody knows as far as i know Actually, I should have double-checked, but when we reviewed it a few weeks ago, it seemed just to have gone AWOL. No one knows where. Well, that sounds like a terrific recommendation.

59:41And thank you for all of them. Bit of a serious one there. No, we like serious. We embrace serious. So we've been talking about A Pass Without Pictures by Jonathan Ames, Brightness by Chad Hardbatch. Do you say hardbatch? It's a hardbatch book. It's a hardbatch butch. Butch? Whatever. and Osnay Seerstats never say war Robbie it's always a pleasure it's genuinely never a chore it's sometimes it's sometimes a little bit unnerving it's never a chore though and we will talk to you again next week well I don't want to I'm trapped with myself no no we mustn't think we mustn't think inside the Ryan Bind of Robbie Millen ever bye oh Robbie goodbye I'm going to go away now haven't I yeah okay that's it from Robbie more from Robbie or from one of his beautiful, wonderful, intellectual underlings next week.

1:00:31Jane and Fee at... Oh, my word. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio remains our email address for the rest of this week. There will be a podcast tomorrow. There will not be a podcast on Wednesday. And then on Thursday, we will join you live from the Cheltenham Literature Festival. So do get by radio if you can between two and four. And we will be putting out our interview with Annika Rice on the podcast feed. later. Is that correct? That's correct. I actually got that correct. Anna Karais will probably be some kind of Christmas gift. Okay, a little bit of Twixmas will come your way. Thank you for listening.

1:01:07Goodbye. Bye.

1:01:25Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

1:02:28Transcription by CastingWords The story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Dominic O 'Connell and Hannah Privet here from The Business Podcast. Join us for a special episode with President of the British Chambers of Commerce and former Chief Economist at the Bank of England, Andy Haldane, and PwC's UK tax leader, Claire Blackburn, as we look ahead to John Healy's first budget. We'll discuss the challenge he faces trying to get the economy growing with an uncertain geopolitical backdrop and a party that's not keen on making cuts to public spending.

1:03:08We'll also ask what businesses are looking for, whether the government will be in a position to deliver or if more tax squeezes are on the way. Listen to the business wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Nicaela Matthews-Aconley from SideHustle Pro. This holiday, the difference between buyers just checking things out and checking out comes down to the last few clicks. PayPal Checkout is a trusted conversion engine fueled by 400 million active PayPal and Venmo accounts. Add Pay Later and turn holiday shoppers into regulars. 96 % of Pay Later shoppers are repeat users. PayPal is built for all business.

1:03:45Get started at paypal.com slash business. Disclaimer, PayPal Pay Later data, eight markets, March 2025 to February 2026. Repeat users more than one Pay Later purchase in the past year.