I like my coffee with a polemic from an important man

0:00Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Do you snore? Did somebody hand you a CPAP and did you quietly stop using it?

0:36The mask that never quite seals? The hose tugging at you every time you roll over? A machine sitting abandoned in a closet? Excite OSA works a different way. It treats a root cause instead of managing the noise, and you use it while you're awake. 20 minutes a day, while the coffee brews, while you set your fantasy lineup. an FDA-cleared prescription device for primary snoring and mild obstructive sleep apnea. Then you go to bed like a person. Nothing strapped on, nothing plugged in. In clinical studies, 90 % of patients saw a reduction in snoring. No sleep study required. Prescribed online, shipped to your door.

1:20ExciteOSA at springsleep.com slash sleep20. Code sleep20 for 20 % off. Excite OSA is an FDA-cleared, prescription-only device for primary snoring and mild obstructive sleep apnea. Not for everyone. Individual results vary. Risks and benefits at springsleep.com. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life.

2:02That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average.

2:42See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

3:04Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Monday. This is Off Air with Eden Fee. Hello. You went, if I may say so, you went a little bit kids TV. I know. That would be. That would have been accompanied by one of those very, very fast-moving waves, you know, that kids TV presenters always do, don't they? Hello! Waving fast. You hear the wind moving around the microphone. Yeah, which actually you don't really do when you're a kid yourself. If I said to you, what's your go-to in your mind when somebody says kids TV? What program is it? because everybody's got one that kind of defines how old they are and also what their parents let them watch.

3:52Yeah, I suppose it depends. When I was young, it probably was Blue Peter, but then I grew out of that and I moved to Tracy Beaker. Tracy Beaker, very much so. And did Tracy Beaker feel like it was properly, properly gritty? It did, Fee, and I think that's why I was drawn to it. Excellent, okay. What was yours? Well, mine would have been Blue Peter because... You're into your craft. Well, do you know what? We were just hugely encouraged to watch Blue Peter as kids. And there was always quite a universal thing, actually, in primary school, that if you were making Tracey Island, then everybody else was making Tracey Island.

4:32You know, the makey things everybody did seem to be joining in on. You know, I mean, that defines your background, everything about you, whatever. but in terms of actual oh my god these are the things that i loved uh then they they would would have been animations are you into cartoons so that definitely would have been i mean i could i could probably still sing all of the words to hong kong phooey if if pushed at a party

5:06don't don't make me don't let me actually please don't let me there's a bit of dennis the menace in my childhood. Okay, that's good. It was a bit too menacing for me. And now I think it has just radically changed. There's more choice, there's an awful lot of streaming and Ariana Grande was in Salmon Cat, correct? Correct. Yes. And I remember that was on in our house quite a lot when the kids were much younger. And I mean, I have to say that it just looked way more fun. Everything about it looked way more fun. Maybe that's for slightly older kids. I think those kind of shows though, Drive your parents a bit more mad.

5:44Yes. The super American. Well, canned laughter as well. Yes, the canned laughter. I don't think there was a single kids' TV programme that would have had canned laughter in it. So I wasn't as encouraged to watch those type of shows. Noel Edmonds was just naturally funny. Swap Shop. Let's just have a moment to remember how Swap Shop worked. So there was a board behind Noel Edmonds, a little bit like the boards that you'd have in church, listing which hymn you were about to sing and up there would go Nat's skateboard and Nat would have dialled in from Solihull to offer his skateboard and then Noel would put up something else and let's say it was Eve's Cabbage Patch doll and then if you wanted it you would phone in.

6:29I seem to recall that there was a real phone on the desk somewhere and you could actually negotiate live on television with a real, real Noel Edmonds to have Nat from Solihull's skateboard. It was so high tech. I'm assuming it wasn't live. Yes, it was. How would it have worked if it wasn't live? Well, I wasn't sure if they'd have pre-recorded it first. Seems quite stressful to have lots of children phoning into live television. Yes. That's tense. Yeah, very much so. It was the beginnings of the circular economy for me. I've never left it. What caught your eye? Do you know what? There was a pair of roller skates once because roller skates were huge, huge, huge, huge.

7:07but I don't think I had anything that would have been juicy enough to swap. I'm not trying to paint myself as an Angela Ashes kind of a childhood here but nobody wanted my second hand treble oboe for example. So I may have been remembering that wrong, correct me if I was but it was so low tech it was just wonderful and also just very, very trusting. You know, because it was before you were going to be rated and reviewed for every single thing that you put up. Oh, there's a little pull there on your satin skirt that you put on vintage. I want£2.50 back. It probably did carve the way for a lot of entrepreneurs, didn't it?

7:46Yeah, probably. Wouldn't it be great, actually, if somebody quoted Noel Edmund's swap shop as being the beginning of their social media empire? That's where it all started. Right, favourite time of day. We are still calling the morning register. I mean, who knew when this started that so many people were listening to us in the morning? we need to say hello to harry who's harriet 55 in cambridge uh and she says i thought i'd join your early morning roll call i normally listen around 5 30 a.m gosh yep uh partly because occasionally i'm a guest on an early morning radio show i know even though i'm actually a jewelry designer oh my gosh how does that work and partly because i tried to shoehorn in a bit of exercise before work so i listen i wake up i make my cup of tea and i have a shower your chat about unusual dolls names reminded me when my niece who's 23 was little she had a doll and asked the family for name ideas my ex-husband suggested landfill well it's witty but also just a little bit disturbing there harriet but she was absolutely set on capsule with a big emphasis on the u so capsule totally random but it's stuck and we still laugh about it thanks keeping me company so early so harriet what what are you talking about on the radio very very early in the morning even though you're a jewelry designer and exercising in between yeah it's a lot it's a very very busy morning i'll tell you what you need time to go to bed god knows let's ask i think that harriet must be a two hobnob at mid-morning kind of a lady with that going on uh becky we need to say good morning to Becky.

9:30She's early mornings as well. She lives in Ponsonby in New Zealand. And this other one was just about favourite time of days. What's your favourite time of day? Because I was thinking actually, I've got a dentist appointment on Thursday morning, and I'm already looking forward to it. It's at 10am. And it's just after nine. That's where 10 comes just after nine. You know that everyone else is in work, and you've managed to just stay out and break free. And it's like that feeling of when you had a doctor's appointment early in the morning during school so i feel like there's never anyone on the streets and it goes into that the commutes over and the world enters that sort of lull yeah now that is a lovely feeling isn't it because you're somehow you're skiving you're not in the usual high pressure cooker of routine you should be on a train or in the office but you're not yeah so uh so yes you'll you'll if you ever take a large amount of time away from work later on in your life uh then you'll probably really really like it this one comes in from katie who says just chipping in on this topic since i was a child my favorite time of day has always been 5 p.m so i chose that as the time for our wedding 21 years ago as a continuation of bucking the norm we were married mid-january in a big hotel in edinburgh where we are both originally from well that's just lovely that is really love yeah choose it choose your wedding for your favorite time of day uh we are going to do books aren't we in this edition of the podcast jane is away on holiday this week she has traveled to a greek island that will keep it secret where she is just because the paps they'll definitely want to follow i fear they may have already found her okay so look out on your daily mail plus for pictures of jane garvey in a bikini uh in fact i get the i pay for the daily mail only for Babs of Jane.

11:22No, no, no, no, no, no. We see quite enough of each other, Eve. But only the absolute minimum amount, only so I can carry on getting their best of daily mail sent to me on a Saturday. It's just so horrendous, Eve. It's so horrendous. Every single time, and I'll read it out tomorrow, I'll do a little bit of an edit. It is just you're going to die. And if you're not going to die, then somebody else has died, and you'd better watch out. Oh, and it always starts with a polemic, absolute polemic, from a very, very important man of the day telling you about the state of the nation, and it just beggars belief.

12:04Veronique loves the show and was listening to our piece about hearing loss. Now, this was Groove Armada. It was. And you and I both agreed that they had actually teamed up with a well-known High Street hearing aid and spectacle company and done a really good PR thing. Do you want to explain what it was? So they were putting on an event with Specsavers and the idea was that it was for specifically over 50s. You need to take a free hearing test that is on Specsavers' website that then makes you eligible to attend the event and the sound system that's going to be there is really safe for ears because they both have hearing trouble following years and years of being next to great booming speakers.

12:48Yeah. And I do think this is something that your generation is going to suffer from even more so than older generations have, because you're listening to vast amounts of very, very loud music. And you're listening to it with your earbuds. So it's real inner ear stuff. It's booming in. And when that little thing pops up, the warning, you know, you've exceeded your volume limit for the week. I think 98 % of kids are ignoring that. I think you don't realise how desensitised you are to it because when it comes up, I'm like, it's not even loud. It's not even that loud. What are you talking about? It sounds absolutely fine to me.

13:22I think we're so used to listening to this sheer volume that when that comes up, I'm like, oh, shut up. Yeah, so you've got to just take it so seriously, though, because once you hit 50... Yeah, and it's just not something that I think is discussed very much. I have some friends who DJ, and one of them now also, he's my age, has tinnitus. he has to sleep with background noise on because otherwise the ringing trying to get sleep just drives him absolutely mad and that's just from a lack of awareness and being too near a big loudspeaker yeah and that's just so many people's stories this is vile i had no idea that you could get it from going to a music event and that that was how it happened yeah i just assumed the venue would already be taking that precaution that the volume but no more for me yeah i think health and safety in terms of noise is really it has been weak yeah i think it's been a real weak spot so veronique says my mom's hearing went a few years ago quite quickly she tried lots of different kinds of hearing aids which just weren't working and it was really tough but one day my teenage daughter asked my mom if she wanted to try her earpods to listen to a bit of music and mom could hear the sound so this is the flip side of the technology we then spoke into the speak apart on my mum's phone which bluetooth our voices into the earpods and she could hear voices again after years of not being able to hear them tears followed and now she wears the pods and ask people to speak into her phone and she can hear everything this was such a game changer and i just want to get this out in case it may help others she even used it during an operation recently so the medical team could keep her advised on what was going on they just spoke into her phone and mum could hear everything they were saying through the pods.

15:03So I guess that's acting as a kind of immediate hearing aid, isn't it? And I think some of the latest ear pods do advertise themselves as having that kind of a function. Can I just pop in my own health and safety thing here? Nothing is ever going to be as good as going for a hearing test and learning what the volume should be because although absolutely very neat, that's worked out for your mum, I would imagine, am I foolish to think that if you try and DIY that too much yourself, you might be making things worse? Yeah. I mean, it's always best to speak to an expert. Shall we do that? It's best to speak to an expert.

15:38But also, do you know what? We would love to hear more stories about how you're dealing with a slight loss of hearing or a severe loss of hearing, and especially trying to get this message through to your kids. Because I think there's an astonishing statistic that there will be more 18 to 24-year-olds with hearing loss than over 75s with hearing loss within a couple of generations. This one comes in from Philippa, who joins us from Wakatane. With a population of 30 ,000 and one movie complex called the Wackamax, which is just good, isn't it? I'd like to say, do you want to come to the Wackamax with me on Thursday night?

16:14It's very satisfying. It's got five small movie theatres in it. My husband loves the movies, goes on his own to every movie. He's a slim 72-year-old with a bony bum. Thank you. He finds sitting for over two hours uncomfortable. So he's got to deal with the staff to watch half the movie one day and half the next. And he gets to eat two ice creams. Absolutely. That's a very good way of doing it.

16:41Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Do you snore? Did somebody hand you a CPAP and did you quietly stop using it?

17:17The mask that never quite seals, the hose tugging at you every time you roll over? a machine sitting abandoned in a closet. Excite OSA works a different way. It treats a root cause instead of managing the noise, and you use it while you're awake. 20 minutes a day, while the coffee brews, while you set your fantasy lineup. An FDA-cleared prescription device for primary snoring and mild obstructive sleep apnea. Then you go to bed like a person, nothing strapped on, nothing plugged in. In clinical studies, 90 % of patients saw a reduction in snoring. No sleep study required. Prescribed online, shipped to your door.

18:00ExciteOSA at springsleep.com slash sleep20. Code sleep20 for 20 % off. ExciteOSA is an FDA-cleared prescription-only device for primary snoring and mild obstructive sleep apnea. Not for everyone. Individual results vary. risks and benefits at springsleep.com. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life.

18:43That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S. offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average.

19:23See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

19:44now i'm just going to read this one very very straight-faced and then eve is going to try and pick up after me are you ready yeah uh dear jane and fee listening to your podcast regarding the above reminded me of the time my friend's mom was at my house admiring my hanging basket she said in ringing tones that i'm sure the neighbors could hear i do so love your trailing labia all yours well you've set me up here slightly um so thank you because the next email is this very lovely heartfelt email from daisy that's titled mother of the bride of the year here we go i married my gorgeous husband james last week and we are basking in the sunlight of newly wed life when reflecting back on our perfect day i wanted to write in and share with you my gorgeous mom who made our day spectacular.

20:33I'd be so delighted if you would share on the podcast to give my mum a proper thank you and a wee surprise. My mum, Alice, is also an avid listener to the podcast and we regularly catch up and dissect your topics. When I decided I wanted the pink and orange wedding of my dreams, my mum stood to attention. We got married in a barn-style venue in the countryside and faced with the overwhelming task of DIY decorating, she was straight to work. Alice spent what must have added up to weeks of her life combing through Pinterest sourcing the best ribbons, confetti and candles glue gunning name tags to dehydrated orange slices planning a children's activity area for our very child-friendly wedding and so much more She made my vision into a reality with so much care and attention to detail My mum did a reading in our ceremony and I chose an extract from Everything I Know About Love by Dolly Alderton It was a total hit with everyone love is a quiet reassuring relaxing pottering pedantic harmonious hum of a thing sometimes you can easily forget it's there even though its palms are outstretched beneath you in case you fall i've attached a couple of pictures and you have you say i'm sure you will also agree that she looks unbelievable especially with a big birthday coming next year um so daisy has attached a photo of Alice in a polka dot dress on the day and she looks absolutely beautiful.

21:56Yeah, what a lovely, lovely mum. Absolutely lovely. And I think Dolly Alderton's Everything I Know About Love is such a classic for all of the right reasons and little quotes like that just prove it all the time. She has done the screenplay, hasn't she, for Pride and Prejudice? She has, which is very exciting. Hopefully we'll... Is that imminent? The arrival of it? I think it's in the autumn. We have Laura Hackett in the room. Do you know when Dolly Alderton's Pride and Prejudice will hit our screens? I believe it's coming this autumn. So, you know, we're on the count down now. Yes. Laura, I would be interested because you recently were married, weren't you?

22:36I was. Did you integrate literature into your ceremony or day? I did. We actually, as our wedding favours, we, heavy on the eye, but my husband did help. chose a book for each of the guests and then had it at their table where they were sitting at their place oh laura that's lovely wow how many guests did you have 55 actually that includes us so 53 okay so you had to find 50 books yes did you do the same book for more than one person i only did that i only did that once and it was because there were some people friends of my husbands and they're kind of like like management consultant type people and I didn't know what to get them so I got this really good book by Malcolm Gladwell Drayton and McKenzie which by Alexander Starr which came out last year and it's about management consultants and it's absolutely brilliant I know it doesn't sound like it would be maybe all that exciting it really is um and so I just thought I have to get it for these guys so I did I did do that but not very often mostly 99 % it was all brand new books.

23:51Do you think you got it? Did you have any people raise their eyebrows at the choice that was made for them? Because there's an element where that could go wrong. Or do you think? There is an element where it could go wrong. I mean, I tried to avoid those kind of pitfalls. There was a lot of, especially with like my husband's side, where I was really digging into the backstory. I was getting all of the information, what could they take wrong? I think it was fine. I got my granny a copy of the tale of Mrs. Tiggy Winkle, the Beatrix Potter story, because we always grew up calling her Mrs. Tiggy Winkle because she's like obsessed with doing laundry.

24:33It's kind of, she loves it. She's amazing at it. She's so good at it. And then I gave it to her and I was like, I hope she doesn't think that like all I associate her with is doing the washing. Because obviously it's so much more than that. but I think she took it the right way. Was it books that you also loved or were there some books where you're like, I don't like that, but I think they would really like this? Generally, I tried to go for books that I also loved because I just sort of thought I want it to be something that is a bit tried and tested. There were a couple of things, you know, like, like uncles and stuff where I was going, right, nothing I like is going to work for you.

25:11Gender taking. Yeah, I was like, okay, this is like a military history type of guy and I'm not a military history type of gal so so what do I do here but um actually it was really fun um it was it was actually I think one of the best parts of the wedding was when we sort of sat down and then looked at everyone opening up their books and saw them all comparing it was it was fun yeah what a fantastic idea I've never heard of anybody putting so much thought uh actually into that level of detail for the guests so good for you thank you yeah laura it's lovely to have you on the podcast thank you for doing our book club podcast last week as well we had quite a few emails didn't we saying that people were grateful to be asked to read short stories because they're often left out of book clubs which i think is probably true actually isn't it i think so i guess for a book club you maybe want to come in and have one sort of main storyline that you want to be able to discuss.

26:11It kind of makes more sense. But I do think it's really worthwhile trying out short stories because I don't think we read them as often. I wouldn't have ever just naturally turned to a short story collection until I started kind of forcing myself to do it. And then I really kind of, I'm now on a bit of a run with them. Yeah. I think they're addictive too. They are. Really addictive because you can just, you can fit them into the crevices of everyday life. I like that phrase. They can grout your day. We are going to talk about three books with you, which we always do books on a Monday afternoon on the live radio programme 2 till 4, available free on the Times Radio app.

26:52I introduced an old school friend to Times Radio last week. I'm very much hoping for a prize. She sent me a photograph of her newly tuned car radio and I did think, oh gosh, this is great. A little rosette, please. So it's very simple to do. I'm just going to say it. If Louise can do it, you can. So get on board, everybody. Can we start, though, by talking about another memoir that is making their headlines outside of the book pages for all of the wrong reasons? It's the memoir of Jason Arday, who is the Cambridge professor who stepped back from his role at Cambridge and does find himself at the heart of an awful lot of questions about the validity of his CV.

27:36He's written a memoir that was due to come out, which now I was really expecting to read an article saying that it had been shelved. but that doesn't seem to be the case. Do you have any insider information from the desk of the Times and Sunday Times? Well, so it's meant to come out in the States tomorrow, I believe, and then not in the UK for another couple of weeks. So I wonder if part of it might be, it's already been sent out to all of the bookshops, maybe it's just a bit too late to pull it. We also, we had a proof copy on the desk And so at the weekend, we ran a review of it. Sarah Dytam did that for us very last minute.

28:23She's very good at that. You send her something in the post and she can really read it so quickly and come up with something very incisive. So well done to Sarah Dytam for doing that. She gets a rosette too. She gets a rosette. So yes, it's perhaps partly that it's too Lea it's now to pulp them. Perhaps it's that they think, well actually there's not quite a lot of interest in this man well way more than there would have been before yes and you know maybe we'll get a few seals from people who are just kind of curious would the publishing industry be so cynical laura well we can't we can never say for sure but you know they've got to make money haven't they was there a positive impact on the sales of the salt path when this when a similar thing happened that is really hard to say because the the whole salt path allegations came out at a very similar time to you might remember the film coming out so the film had already boosted sales and it had already gone back into the bestseller charts and then of course all of these allegations came out but I will say it took quite a long time post the big story for them to drop out of the bestseller chart that stayed in there for a while.

29:36So it's hard to tell whether it was people who maybe hadn't heard about the allegations or people that actually wanted to go and read it and see what their take was. I did hear somebody say in another podcast that there was really no repercussions from the salt path for anybody in the publishing industry, even though it really did seem to be that a lot of people had bought the book in good faith and had not been really served very good faith. And there would be the same criticism levelled at Jason Arde's memoir too. So does that mark something new in publishing where it's kind of like just publish and be damned, we just don't, we don't really care if these things are proved to be false, we're just going to publish it anyway?

30:20Well, around the time of everything about the salt path, the Penguin CEO, Tom Weldon, came out and he basically said, you know, we've published thousands and thousands of books. And there's been a very, very small number of them that have had these allegations and controversy. And so, you know, he was trying to say all of this chat about it's the end of publishing is very overblown, which is a fair point. But I do think that something has changed in the past, I don't know, five, ten years within publishing where they have got much narrower margins that they're working on. it's much harder to make money selling books than it used to be.

31:03Partly, perhaps, that people aren't reading so much, but also, you know, people are listening to podcasts instead, which is fine. Or that they can go on a sub stack and read about someone's, you know, personal life for free or for a very small amount. There's lots of other alternatives. Everything's more expensive. Paper's more expensive. There's all sorts of reasons why publishers are having to do a lot more with a lot less. And their budgets have really had to shrink. And I think one of the things that lots of publishers have come out and said, albeit, you know, off the record, they've said, we're not having fact checkers anymore.

31:44We just can't afford it. There's not enough time in the process. Because another thing, when you're competing with social media, when you're competing with Substack, people are saying things instantly. if you want to publish a book that's relevant, a non-fiction book, you have to turn it around pretty fast. And so lots of publishers, I think, are saying that we just don't have time for really thorough fact checking. As part of this, we've paid the author X amount in their advance, and they're an expert. And so we expect them to do the fact checking. Do you know what? It's fascinating, though, because this weekend, I also read about Rachel Cusk's latest book, which has a bit of controversy around it too, because many, many people say it's based on her real life friendship with Natalie Portman.

32:28That's never explicitly said in the book at all. But she had a previous novel pulped because there was a recognisable person in it who didn't like the way that he was portrayed. So in fiction, the rule seems to be completely different in the world of fact, where somebody is talking about their own life and if they decide that they want to be a little bit economical with the truth then that matters less than somebody making it up and also within fiction publishing there are these incredible people called copy editors who go through after your main editor has gone through and said cut that chapter and i hate that character or whatever a copy editor will come through and read it line by line and will figure out things like, okay, well, you said they went to the swimming pool on Wednesday, but now in this chapter, you're saying that happened two days ago.

33:22And in fact, it would have been four days ago. And they must have such sort of forensic minds to be able to do that. So it feels quite strange to me that then in nonfiction, where it really is quite important that you get things right, that they don't necessarily have a similar person. Now, I'm sure that's not in all publishers. It will depend, publishing house to publishing house. But it does seem like in general, it's something they're having to really cut back on or rely on the author themselves to do, which is quite a big ask, I think. Very much so. And not everybody has clarity of memory.

33:55Not everybody has written down facts. And not everybody is straight as a die. Should we just leave it like that? Yeah. Right. We always love talking to you about the inner workings of the publishing industry, Laura. So that is a fascinating insight. You also bring three book recommendations to us this week. So we'll start with Where Are the Kings? By Donal Ryan. So I have heard people saying really good things about Donal Ryan for a long time. He's an Irish author, which as we know, I'm always inclined towards. But I had never read any of his books. And this one is coming out very soon. It's coming in August.

34:31And I just thought I have to give it a go and it's about a young boy called Jack he's sort of 13 14 and the book starts with his his mother kills herself she dies and I thought oh god here we go now this is going to be a real this will be a struggle this will be a tale of woe to get through and of course it is very sad but it's also it's got this real warmth to it he's he's basically his mother's dead his father ends up in a mental hospital. This is sort of 70s Ireland, by the way. And he is sent off to stay with his mother's family, with all of her siblings, none of whom are married. And there's just such a warmth in the house that he goes to.

35:18He's obviously grieving. He's coming to terms with it. And it's not as though it's like this perfect happy ending for him. The family has its squabbles. There's the kind of low level bullying that you get between siblings. But there is, I think, a warmth that runs through it. And I really, really enjoyed it. It's one of those books that doesn't try to be this kind of big sprawling epic. It's just looking at one summer in the life of this one boy experiencing something terrible and how he goes about beginning to heal from it. And I just really enjoyed it. Everyone says that The Spinning Heart by Donald Ryan, that seems to be the one that's won the awards that people really love.

35:59So that's next on my list. Excellent. The Renovation. Now, this isn't a manual. Is this still in the world of fiction? It is in the world of fiction. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a recommendation, but I feel it's important to cover it because it's just made the book a long list. It's by a Turkish-American author called Kenan Orhan, and it's his debut novel he's written short stories before a debut novel it's a pretty big deal for your debut novel to get in the book a long list and the premise is is such uh this lady delara and her husband they decide to get a bathroom renovation and the builders are they don't really let them in to see how they're doing with the progress they say no just wait until the end stay out okay fine they're anxious because they've really stretched beyond their means a bit to pay for this bathroom renovation and eventually the builders finish up they run off and Dilara goes in and instead of her lovely marble bench and waterfall shower the bathroom has been turned into a prison cell oh what a nightmare I didn't see that coming and neither did I did you Eve absolutely not I thought maybe there was just some shoddy plumbing work coming our way No, I'm just dodgy laid tiles.

37:16Oh no, far worse than that. And stranger still, it's an exact replica of the Silviri prison in Istanbul. And in fact, she discovers is the Silviri prison in Istanbul, which is odd because we're in Italy. So we're in a bit of a magical realism. This isn't, you know, this is something a bit odd. and she's basically, her bathroom's been turned into a portal into an Istanbul prison. It ends up being about a lot more than that. It's about her father who's living with him. He's suffering from dementia. It's about the fact that they've had to leave Istanbul. This is because of the increasingly totalitarian regime of Erdogan.

38:00So they've sort of fled Istanbul and it's like it's coming back to get them a little bit. So it's unclear, is it really there? is she just imagining it her husband certainly seems to think it's there because he scarpers he runs off and leaves her alone to deal with the prison cell and with her father it's you know there's lots of interesting things happening for me it didn't quite cohere and sort of more importantly I didn't really get the feeling I could see okay the prison's meant to be it's a symbol for homesickness it's a symbol for exile but I didn't feel what the character presumably was feeling, which was a sense of homesickness, of sadness, of being sort of trapped with her father and having to do all of the caring duties.

38:45I could see that it was all laid out very nicely, but I didn't personally, I didn't, I didn't get the feeling. And I think that's crucial. Well, it is crucial, isn't it? And I don't know, do you like magic realism, Eve? I haven't read a lot of it. I read Exit West by Mohsin Hamid a couple of years ago. which is like a similar these portals pop up and they jump across borders and i actually really like that and that did resonate with me but on the whole i think i guess it depends how it presents itself yeah yeah i always struggle as well with books on very very esteemed prize lists that may have the whiff of should read about them do you know what i mean and and you know that in a judge's huddle inevitably there will be books that you feel you should put on the list because they've got an extraordinary element to them or they're different or they're bringing a new voice to the party or whatever I completely get that but they're not always the same books as want to read are they they're just not yeah I mean it it does discuss a lot of very interesting themes um and it's the on a sentence level it works really well but there was no kind of for me there was no joy from it there was no okay uh the great fortune by olivia manning does that fare better under your critical gaze it does don't worry so this is a this is an older book and um it is the first in olivia manning's balkan trilogy um and it's really brilliant this was the book that i brought with me on holiday that was like the book i really wanted to read i had a lot of work reading to do but this was my treat and it's about a young couple called Guy and Harriet Pringle and Guy is a professor and they move together to Bucharest but unfortunately it's 1939 and it's not really a good time to be moving to Romania and there is a lot of upheaval.

40:51It's told from Harriet's perspective and she has moved there with Guy. They really only it was a bit of a whirlwind romance so she's kind of getting to know her husband I would say a bit late a bit late in proceedings because they're already married and he seems quite annoying um but so she's sort of getting used to married life she doesn't have a job there so she's trying to get to know the neighbours and to form a bit of a life for herself there while dealing with this new husband of hers and also it's the war um and is Romania going to be invaded they don't know there's this constant disruption and upheaval but it's a really beautiful portrait of the city I've never been I know I really desperately want to go of the sort of otherworldly aspects what it's like to move to a new country if you've lived in England your whole life and all of a sudden you're here and there are these wonderful coffee houses and people stay up having dinner until 3am but there's also the these beggars who are in absolute abject poverty freezing to death in the beautiful glistening icy park it's really really evocative um and just very readable um it's a big fat book the trilogy but you can obviously split it into the three and i can't wait to go back and read the next one excellent well we really love readable really really love readable i mean it's quite odd if anyone publishes a book that's unreadable but they do they do and sometimes as they come across our desk actually don't they say it's unreadable thank you very much indeed laura always lovely to hear your thoughts and your recommendations eve and i are going to keep on trucking or we're going to keep on tugboating throughout the week and actually we do have some other emails that i'll bring to the party tomorrow about book recommendations for the summer very spookily one of them was about ann patchett's wisdom and that had been mentioned to me over the weekend by my sister and also mentioned by a complete relative stranger as her book of choice for the summer to you know sometimes when you feel that the universe is just telling you i think the universe wants you to read that's the book to buy yeah and if there's something kind of spooky and relevant in there that really will that will knock me sideways can i put in a message from the universe here which is shameless plug but on the sec if you're based near london on the 2nd of September I'm going to be interviewing Anne Patchett and Meg Mason so OMG it's a Times Plus event get your tickets come along so what date the 2nd of September oh I'm so coming to that please do that is magnificent Sorrow and Bliss Meg Mason's previous novel would remain on my top 10 i just think it was such a phenomenal exploration of mental illness and done in such a clever way oh laura that's going to be a night of nights how fabulous i'm looking forward to it yeah a little bit nervous no you'll be brilliant i'll pop a little link down below so yeah absolutely brilliant god what a combo wow wow okay well i'm glad that i mean the universe is telling us something, isn't it?

44:04That's doubly spooky. That is really spooky. There you go. Stop, take a night off, Mr Universe. Even I'll be back tomorrow. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio is our email address. Have a good evening.

44:32congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with jane and fee thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day monday to thursday two till four on times radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case so you can get the radio online on dab or on the free times radio app off air is produced by eve salisbury and the executive producer is rosie cutler

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