I won't look at my rattan conservatory chair the same way...

0:00Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. How do we truly navigate life's hardest moments? I'm Julia Samuel, psychotherapist and best-selling author.

0:37In my podcast, Therapy Works, I open the therapy room for candid, insightful conversations with people known and unknown. Discover what my guests have learnt and failed to learn about resilience and human connection. Listen to Therapy Works today, wherever you get your podcasts.

1:23Welcome back. Thank you very much. How are you? I am all right. As people who are regular listeners will know, I've spent time with my dad and he died, gosh, how many days ago now? He died on October the 8th. So 10 days ago. Nearly 10 days ago. Yeah, 10 days ago. And I know you've lost your dad. And it's, what can I say about it? He was, let's just be practical. He was 93. He was very, very ill. And I do mean very ill. And I hadn't been specific about what he had had because I'm, as I make very clear, I'm not a doctor. I know I make all kinds of pronouncements. They're usually utterly wrong. Can I just say that if Jane comes and accosts you on public transport, she's not a doctor.

2:16Always remember that. Always remember that. But my dad had neck cancer. Now, the only thing I'd say about that, because I'm in no way qualified, is that head and neck cancers don't get an enormous amount of publicity or attention. And when dad had a massive operation earlier in the year, really huge. I mean, he was in the operating theatre for over eight hours. And bear in mind, at that time, he was 92. My sister and I were not sure he'd survive the operation. And he wasn't sure either. And he was incredibly brave to have it. and throughout the last year of his life actually he genuinely displayed tremendous courage and I will never forget that I honestly it was awe-inspiring um he was prepared to put himself through that and then afterwards you know he for various reasons he decided not to have radiotherapy and so we did know that it was very unlikely that he'd have much longer and he didn't.

3:16Can I ask you something that might be a little bit difficult to answer so don't if you don't want to that's right do do you think he should have had that operation well we've talked about that and to be honest if you get a diagnosis like that at that age your your choices are not they're not brilliant either way really and this again I need to make very clear this is my understanding there There'll be people listening to this who know so much more and very well be able to offer their own expertise and experience. And please do. I think he came to the conclusion that it was his best his best chance.

3:55He knew, obviously, at his age, he didn't, logically speaking, have much longer anyway. And in fairness, it did. It did buy him some time. He actually he came through the operation, which was in itself extraordinary. and my sister was with him at that time and and you know she just said she couldn't believe it when she went to visit him the next day he was obviously high as a kite on all kinds of post operative meds but eating toast we just we just couldn't believe it he'd had a you know a big tumor removed from his neck and he was so it's just that it's just not possible I don't think to to to survive something as as enormous as that for very long uh the cancer did come back which is what he eventually died of.

4:39So I just want to say to people that it's, it's not, I mean, I was, I was really glad that thanks to the circumstances, my employers, people like you preparing on Eve and Hannah and Rosie and everybody here plugging along with everything. And the fact that my children are of an age where they didn't require me, I was able to spend that significant chunk of time just sitting with with my dad in his care home which we've talked about quite a bit in your absence actually because we had this one email from a listener and we won't keep mentioning her name actually because I'm sure if she listened again well I I would imagine yeah she may have felt thoroughly corrected you know on her view that actually our working life was severely disrupted by your personal events and as we are a public facing working combination yeah that had i think her word was that had proved to be insulting to the listener but so many people jane came to your defense and and also have praised exactly you know the cohort and our employers as you've just said that of course it should be standard that you can if possible spend time with a loved one who needs you for them, but also for you to not be able to be there.

6:06And I think it's so difficult for so many people. Oh, it's impossible for a lot of people. They cannot spend that calm time saying goodbye. But what a lovely thing to be able to do at the end of a long life when actually there wasn't anybody else there. Because your mum had died last year, It would be terrible for your dad to be on his own, James. Well, that was it. Neither my sister nor I could face the prospect of him being on his own at that point in his very, very long life. And look, if he were here now, which obviously he isn't, he would be the first to say, that was not a bad innings, was it?

6:43And for 92 years of his 93, it was pretty bloody good. Did he retain his Scouse sense of humour right to the last day? Well, of course he did. Well, actually, he did. And that not possibly for the last 10 days or so. But I mean, he still had a sense of humour, I'm sure, somewhere in there. He was still what I will always remember about him. And it's something I hope I carry through. He still had his manners. So he did have that kind of muscle memory, which meant that when the carers were looking after him, he would always thank them afterwards. And it's that sort of thing that I think has absolutely will stick in my head.

7:26that's and it's such a lovely thing yeah you remember and actually do you what my dad was exactly the same even when he was in intensive care and and his uh his heart attack had been so bad you know his his brain wasn't fully functioning but he had retired to this place where he felt he was in a different part of his life yeah and he was always a very very generous man too generous really he'd always try and pick up the tab uh you know even when he possibly shouldn't and he was constantly worried when he was in the ICU about who was going to pay for everything and was everybody okay and you know he was back in that place where you know he was in a restaurant somewhere you know in in the heart of London treating all of his old army mates but it's an interesting muscle memory isn't it yeah it's good to hear that Raymondo yes no he kept that that what I will say unlike your dad um we discovered after my mum died that my mum had been the generous one.

8:22I think she was a generous one. Perhaps hadn't always been, not that he was mean, but she definitely revealed herself after her passing to have been the one who said, we'll get this, you have this, we'll send money to you. So anyway, look, I'm not, I'm not criticising my dad, who, as I say, actually was just properly courageous for the last period. But I bet, Jane, that he was thrilled that you and Alison could have been there. Yeah, I hope so. Well, I hope so. I mean, I think there were moments when he definitely realised that we were there. Yeah. So, and, but I really need to make clear that if your parent or loved one, partner, sibling, dies suddenly, you're not going to have this opportunity.

9:06But also, Jane, I think too many people cannot get the time off work. They just can't do it. They can't get the time off work. Because of their other commitments. Like you say, they've got much younger children or other dependents or they're in a different part of the world. Yeah. So, you know, I'm not trying to dress up your experience as positive. Very, very. Well, in some ways it was. And obviously there are some images that I've seen that I'd like to unsee. But that goes for anybody who's and eventually those images will pass and they'll be replaced by. And there have been lots and lots of very positive memories and experiences over the years.

9:41But it is a privilege and it's something that not everybody will be able to do. and because of all their other commitments. And I'm very grateful that by pure fluke that we were able to do it. Do you want me to be at your bedside when the time comes? Well, actually, I mean, I really want to, I mean, I don't want to, sometimes we knock our previous employer, but I just want to say my dad was a great, great fan of Radio 3. He absolutely loved it. Now, you're a musician. I don't know anything about music and I know even less about classical music. My dad genuinely loved classical music. And so his final weeks were largely a soundtrack by Radio 3.

10:25He didn't put this on. No, I didn't put it because he wouldn't have liked it. And he absolutely, I mean, honestly, what that radio station provides, it's not probably something that I will listen to much in the future. Although weirdly, you know, I might give it a whirl because there were some beautiful pieces of music that, particularly in the middle of the night, I mean, I thought, my God, there was one evening where, well, it was night where we actually thought my dad was about to die. So we were called back to the care home. And again, I mean, actually, he didn't die that night. But we spent that time with him.

11:01And, you know, Radio 3 at I think it's about three o 'clock in the morning played a 14th century French mass. Now, I'm never going to hear that again. I never knew I'd want to hear it at any point in my life. But there was a sort of magic about it. There really was. I bet. Yeah, I mean, there really, really was. There are parts of the BBC that should always remain because they are doing, you know, what the commercial broadcasting world can't do. And can we just say, you know, we are far enough away from the BBC, I hope to be able to criticise it with care. Yeah. I think the decision to knock you and yours on the head is madness.

11:41It's a programme that's changed legislation. Yeah. It's a programme that's really hard to imagine how that could be done in the commercial sector. And I think that feeling that you've got somewhere to go if all other avenues seem to be deserting you has never been more important. When you're never met with a human, when you want to complain about something, where AI is befuddling all of our decisions, I think this is the time when you absolutely need a programme that you can get in touch with that will do something on your behalf and that will bring everybody together so we're all better informed about it.

12:21I just couldn't believe it. It's a proper, doughty public service programme. What are they thinking? I mean, it is the sound Western Macintosh of consumer affairs, that programme, and we take it off at our peril. They're about to remove it and I can't believe it. Well, we're backing it. We are backing it. We're backing it. Much good it'll do them with our record. So maybe we just need to find a way of combining what would be on the best of the BBC. So you'd have Radio 3 on overnight. Yeah. So you'd have a couple of fugue states that you can enter. Very good. Yes. And then we'll pop some You and Yours on.

13:02There's nothing else. There's nothing else. We could just settle for those two things. Well, I think Desert Island Discs has still got something in it. I can always see the joy in there or hear it rather I'm not as keen and another record exactly yes I know what you mean it's not live it's not live is it no it's not live anyway we don't want to big up those people except we will because those two things are worth so you're absolutely right so actually we just want to save you and yours and Radio 3 overnight and the rest of it bye bye pretty much

13:41Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions requires iPhone 11 or later. When something significant happens in British politics, stories are always unfolding behind closed doors.

14:16The State of It podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times takes you inside the room where it happens. I'm Stephen Swinford, the political editor of The Times, and with me are Patrick Maguire, Lara Spirit and Ben Riley-Smith. We will bring you scoops and analysis about what is really going on in Westminster. Listen to The State of It twice a week, wherever you get your podcasts.

14:43Now, it's lovely to be back. And in order to celebrate my return, I'm going to read out an email that praises Fee. Do you need to have a little drink first? Well, I should have a quick slurp. This I could do with a couple of spicy margaritas. I really hope Eve reads this before Fee, so it has a chance of being read out. Okay. I see what Amara this is, who's only 27. I see what she means. I spotted Fee at the Lido a couple of years ago and my friend told me for the amount I bang on about these podcasters, I've just got to go over and say hello. I quite literally cornered Fee in her lane before she was about to push off and she couldn't have been warmer and even kinder than I imagined.

15:25I have never met a well-known person who asks and tell me about yourself. It really made my day and then proceeded to make me the talk of the family WhatsApp. My mum and aunt are also avid listeners. Shout out to my auntie Clover and my mother Carol. Anyways, all's to say some heroes are great to meet and Fee remains the celebrity dinner party guest I'd most like to have. Amara, well, I'm really glad that your meeting with Fee in the Lido a couple of years ago went so well. You remember it, don't you? I do remember it, actually. So hello, Amara. And it's a strange thing when you meet people that you don't know semi-naked and immersed in water.

16:06Well, you've got nowhere to turn. You've got nowhere to turn, but I wouldn't have swum hastily away from you. And actually there is something about that that makes it much easier to have a pretty full-on, immediate, deep conversation that you wouldn't have if you were just, if Amara and I had met at a bus stop after we'd both been for a swim, I don't think we would have had a chat. And I do remember the chat that we had and it was great. And then we went our separate ways and we swam. And it is lovely to know, actually, really lovely to know that somebody so young enjoys the muddling things that we talk about from our middle-aged shelf on this podcast so i absolutely remember you amara and it's very kind of you to write in to say that and jane now has fulfilled the remit in her contract and never needs to do that again actually not not for another two years thanks amara it's all over yeah So obviously we've had a lot of emails of people missing you and wishing you well.

17:05Well, that's very kind. Oh, I had a lovely card from Nick, who we met at, very briefly met actually, at Cheltenham at the festival on Thursday. Thank you very much for that card. It was beautifully expressed, Nick. Thank you. Now, who is Nick? You didn't see her because she gave me a card just as we were leaving. Oh, OK, sorry. I was thinking, no, I can't post that at all. We had a lovely time at Cheltenham, didn't we? I mean, it sort of sets autumn going, doesn't it, for us? It does. It's a beautiful location. It's a lovely festival. And our guest, Annika Rice, I think she more than delivered.

17:36Yeah, she didn't disappoint. No, she didn't disappoint. She can give good anecdote. And actually, there is so much in that book. So her book is called Challenge, with an exclamation mark after it. It's a memoir about all of the different things, the challenges she's faced in her life. And she really takes you there. She doesn't spare the horses. so she was a great guest she wanted us to thank our audience Jane because so many people queued to get a signed copy afterwards. Because it's a good book it's a funny funny book and said how much they'd enjoyed the session so happy days all round Have you sampled Colleen's Preserve?

18:13I Colleen have got your black currant jelly and it's divine. Is it? It's super smooth super super smooth Well, Colleen, thank you. Yeah, so thank you very much indeed for that, Colleen. You could dunk that in some cold ambrosia rice pudding. Oh, no, I wouldn't do that. I don't know. I don't like rice pudding. I don't really like risotto. I don't really like porridge. People don't like the gloop of it all. I know some people think it looks like something that might have been pre-enjoyed. Exactly. It's something that you see a lot around mainline stations of a morning at the weekend. Oh, that's so true.

18:50I don't like a meal where the first mouthful is the same as the last. And that's why I, as a child, I used to dislike soup. But as an adult, I've learned to love it. Yeah, that's very true. Although I can never drink soup. It has to be enjoyed with a soup spoon. So you're not a cup of soup fan? No, definitely not. Oh, I love a cup of soup. Do you? Absolutely love a cup of soup. And sometimes I like making a cup of soup where I don't put the full amount of water in. So it's just incredible. It's like a cow lick. It's so salty. And it makes it really super thick. Actually, that's a really good point about food that is the same, is a consistent flavour and texture throughout, whereas that's why people enjoy the classic roast, because there's so much going on.

19:39Pick and mix. Yeah. A bit of softish veg, then some challenging meat. Yeah, okay, I get it. Which isn't that interesting. But you like it. You like the slop of a sliced pudding. And I like the challenge of a mix of... So I like everything. Okay. I know that's not true. What is it I don't like to eat? Almost nothing. You caught me out there. It's only gristle. Gristle and cheese scones are the only thing I don't like. No, hang on. Something will come to... Biscuits. Oh, I don't like biscuits. Yep, you said the other day on the team you didn't like biscuits. I've seen you eat biscuits, though. Okay.

20:18now this going grey thing we need to we need to air this a bit because um what's interesting yes is that i was due to have a colour appointment uh next week and for various logistical arrangements connected to my dad's funeral which is a week on friday you do have to still wait quite a long time to get a slot and i think this is a subject if people can tell us where i know different cultures You do it really quickly. I think Catholic funerals happen much quicker than we're having a non-religious funeral for my dad because he, if anything, had even less interest in religion than my mother. My mother used to like the idea of keeping up appearances and occasionally popping to church.

20:59My dad just didn't have any truck with it. Which cathedral in Liverpool would she attend? Oh, no, she wouldn't go to the cathedral, but she would pop to an Anglican service. Yeah. Yeah. And I think she got a little bit of comfort from that. But I mean, she didn't go very often. I can't remember her going in the last 10 years. But she would occasionally have been known to take a shred of interest in religious affairs. Whereas my dad was in no way a hypocrite and he just thought it was all copless. By the way, if you are religious, that's completely all right. That was his way of thinking. So we do have to wait a long time.

21:35And it does mean that there is this slight, it is a bit of a strange period in your life that you're waiting for this to be over because you do think you might feel differently afterwards. Yeah. And I think on the whole you do a bit. So I'm quite looking forward to it being over, if I'm honest. I think a lot of people will understand that. Back to my hair. Yes. I have had to rejiggle an appointment and therefore I can't get my colour done. So is this God's way, although I'm not sure I believe in God, God's way of saying, pack it in? is my dad intervening from the heavens well is it is it is it Raimondo's parting shot can you see what's happened there because Raimondo kept a head of hair did he oh yes he did have a head of hair well I can't see any gray in your parting well no I bet you can't at the moment because it's relatively you know oh okay okay so you're so you can't get you can't get the next appointment so basically I'm not having it done this month okay yeah so let's shall we see what happens Well, let's.

22:37So the idea, we were talking about going grey and I was just saying, so one of the reasons I've had my hair cut very short now. I think it's lovely. Is because, well, it's a bit too short, actually. I'm not a huge fan of it myself. It's nice to see your ears. It's nice. You're very sweet ears. Some people have got... No, I don't think I do, actually, Joan. What's wrong with them? Lengthy lobes? Yeah, I think they're a bit big for my head. Oh, my God. Do some people really worry about the length of their ear? Oh, I think they do. Really? I think they do. Do you know what? When I was younger, I absolutely hated my knees and my forearms.

23:15Right. I look back on it now and I just think, how did you have the time of day to dislike your forearms so much? And did you really think, and it's so much worse for kids these days, isn't it, because everything's just being shared around all the place, but did I really think that it was going to hamper my enjoyment of future life? that my forearms are just a little bit more muscly and a little bit hairier than other people's forearms were. My knees are terrible. I inherited my knees and my reckless optimism from my dad. Did you? Yeah, one of them's great, one of them's not so great. But, yeah, the knees are always covered up.

23:52How do we get onto this lobes, hair? Yes, thank you. Let's backtrack. I'm going to go very, very, very short because then actually it would only take me about six weeks to grow out the grey. Yeah. But what I'd quite like to try and do, and I don't know whether you would join me in this, it would be great because so many people of our age do want to grow out there grey. Could we not create something like Movember where for a month, and we call it Back to My Roots, you give the money that you would have spent on your hair appointment, on my touch-up appointment, and the root touch-up that I use in between times, the semi-permanent what's-it that I use as well, all of that kind of zhuzh.

24:31Have you got one of those powdery things? Maybe. After powdery, you're parting. I always feel like I've retreated. Oh, I used that in COVID. Yeah, to the 18th century. I'm just going to go and powder my wig. But we could all contribute that money to a fund. A Christmas-appropriate charity? Exactly, something like that. Well, let's think about that seriously. Yeah, and then people could do it every month just as a show of support for a charity. But certainly I'd be very, very happy to donate the first Miss Tear appointment, you know, that I don't need to have when I finally go grey to a charity in the net.

25:10Why should men have all of the fun with their Movember? Why should they do that? Why should they? And have you been influenced? I don't mean that, by the way, because it's a great charity. Yes, no, it's a good idea. Have you been influenced by Olivia Colman? Well, it's funny you should say that. She's a famous thespian. She is a famous thespian. By the way, I've seen a trail for Wicker. Have you seen the film? Is it out yet? Do you know what? I am not going to be able to look at my rattan conservatory chair in the same way. Sit comfortably there, or perhaps you will. Because the noises that it makes when I sit on it seem to be quite similar to the noises that the Wicker Man played by...

25:48One of the Skarsgårds. Skarsgårds. Is it Alexander? Yes, it is. I mean, he's lovely. Why have I said that? He's lovely. He's an actor. I would have said out of many of the current actors, he's the least likely to need to be woven in wood. I actually did. I did see the trail and I thought, oh, that does look most unusual. So I'm inclined to give it a whirl. Yeah, it looks great fun. But I don't think it's out yet. No, I think it's out next Thursday. Because I went to the cinema. I was off last weekend until we went to Cheltenham and it was like a little bit of an experiment. I wasn't quite ready to come back to work, so it was good that I didn't.

26:28But it was a kind of taste of retirement fee. I know, which you're dreading. Well, I can't worry. I kept bumping into my very dear but already retired friend. I tried everything to avoid it, but I kept bumping into her. Where was the stranger's place at the strangest time of day? It wasn't strange at all, really, but I met her on our... Well, it's a street in West London, W London, which for many, many years was spoken of as up and coming. And now it's properly come and upped, upped and come. I mean, it's just astonishing. So what have you got on the parade? Oh, they're really expensive overpriced butchers, but with nice meat.

27:11Yeah. There's a Gales. There's any number of we've seen you coming, but why not buy these earring shops? Okay, so you've got cards and candles. I always think cards and candles. You are 100 % right. And it's a place to see and be seen. Yes. But it never used to be. I used to live not far from there and with the friend I met the other day, in fact. And, you know, you took your life in your hands when you went down that road back in the late 90s. Not anymore. Anyway, I bumped into it and we were both examining, I think it was overpriced condiments in a semi-health shop. You know the kind of place I mean.

27:47I know exactly what you mean. Yes, yes. and anyway I kept bumping into her in other locations and it just became, I realised that's what retirement looked like. So, I love her obviously, it needs to be said. I went to the cinema one afternoon and I thought I'll play cinema roulette and I'll just go and see the next thing starting. Now I'm not a risk taker normally, but I ended up going to see The Uprising. Which is about the Peasants' Revolt. It's about the Peasants' Revolt. Now I hesitate to give it a hard recommend, although it is interesting. It's very violent. and I thought of you because it was thanks

28:24the trail for Wicca was shown before the film by the way which is why that was in my head I'm definitely going to see Wicca it was set in the sort of Fenlands of Essex for some reason I thought of you are you not familiar with that part of the world because you live close to yes I'm quite familiar not as far up as the Fens because Cambridgeshire is the up Fen High It's in Marshlands then. Yes. Marshlands, not Finland. Yeah. So this is about walking to London, the process that came to London. They walk. I mean, it's directed by Paul Greengrass. He's done some amazing stuff. And it stars Andrew Garfield as the ploughman who takes on the might of Richard II and the mayor of London.

29:10And the mayor of London, it did make me laugh because obviously I think Sadiq Khan. and I can't imagine Sadiq Khan on horseback alongside the king taking on a bunch of revolting peasants. But, I mean, look, anything could happen. Well, it could. The way things are going in other parts. Yeah, absolutely. At the moment. I think he's more likely to be on a line bike. That's actually right. That would be the one. Sadiq Khan on a line bike. On London Fields this weekend, so in the East East London, there was a jousting on line bikes tournament. there wasn't not really well I tried to access the Instagram feed that I've been sent but it's been taken down so I don't know whether something so it wasn't properly organised no I think it was properly organised yeah yeah I mean it's it is such a funny part of town to live in now that is extraordinary there is some there's a crowd of young people who live there you just have vast vast imaginations displayed in the type of things that they eat the type of things that they wear yeah and now the type of things that they do on London Fields.

30:14Well, that's a new one on me. Jousting on lion bikes. Semi-seriously. Actually, no, it's more than semi-seriously. Seriously, if you're a French listener or if you're listening in France... Oh, my goodness, we would so love to hear from you. We would love to hear from you because it's all very well, me watching the uprising, but things in France did sound over the weekend to be getting really hairy. The numbers of people protesting, Jane, I don't think we have really taken on board what they mean. I'm not sure we have. So, you know, it's across France, it is estimated to be 800 ,000 people out on the streets.

30:49France doesn't have an enormous population. It's smaller than ours, isn't it? Yeah, it's geographical size. And some of the buildings that have been burnt down, I mean, they really are the, you know, the town hall in the Moj. The building in the Moj, yeah, that's awful. The tourist office in Lyon. I mean, there's, you know, real looting and rage going on. And it's funny, isn't it? because I think at first there was quite a dismissive tone of the French, don't they love their protests? And now it's like France is burning. And what might come afterwards, I think, will be quite sobering in terms of politics because they've got an election coming up and the promises that will be made to try and keep a lid on that anger.

31:32I think we should really, really have a look at those. But yes, we would love to hear. We know that we've got lots of listeners in France. We hope you're OK. Well, we do. And also we should bear in mind that because France is a big country with a bigger than ours, but with a smaller population than ours, there will be some people who say, actually, you know, it's over-egged. We've seen nothing. I've heard nothing. Because that will be true of some parts of France, won't it? Yeah. But equally, if you do live in a big city, it must be really quite frightening. Very much so. But the instigation for this protest came from students, didn't it, who were absolutely sick of really, really poor schooling.

32:11And, you know, some of the stories that they told, you know, of just never having a proper teacher in the class, lack of supply teachers, you know, complete lack of equipment and oversight. And many of them were asking for a better education. So although it then becomes easy, I think, for some commentators to dismiss this as kids out of control, looting and kind of taking something for themselves. I've got a lot of sympathy for young kids who look around and go, this isn't fair. I want to enter the adult world with more equipment, please. So do something about it. It doesn't seem an unreasonable demand, really, to get a decent teacher.

32:56And were the Macrons wise to go and see Celine Dion over the weekend? I mean, remarkable though she is. On what level? well many levels on every level was it wise back to going gray yes let's do that so yes let us know your thoughts uh on everything on everything on all of those things we've talked about and actually if we could start just a little campaign with a worthwhile cause at the end of it then i think because for some people it would mean uh only donating six pounds 99 for you know a root touch up to be missed and for other people um i know that my going to a hairdresser to have my roots done is a lot more than six pounds 99 and i'm very happy to donate that too and i'm also quite looking forward to going gray now i'm absolutely sick of it you aren't as gray as i am that's the irony because you're much much older yes i am yes um yes i am what what can i say Well, I don't know.

33:54I mean, is it that whole business, that's totally genetic, is it? I would imagine so. I suppose it must be. Yeah. Yeah. Can't be diet related, can it? No. My mum started going grey in her 20s and I only really remember her as being grey. And I mean, she's got beautiful white hair now. And also my mother has never, ever blow dried her hair. Well, I've got that in common with her. She's never put a thing on it. Hasn't she? No product. And it looks good. I don't think my dad had ever used shampoo. That was something we discovered quite late in his life. Was he grey? White. White. But thick, thick hair.

34:33Yeah. Yeah, he did go snowy white. But, I mean, his generation of men, they didn't care about that sort of thing, did they? No. I mean, and they didn't have to care. I would say that my dad was probably a member of the last brigade of men who had never had to berate themselves for their appearance or uphold any kind of beauty or handsome standard. Not that he was an unattractive chap, I mean, I'm sure he wasn't, but you know what I mean? He hadn't got any of that self-consciousness or self-doubt that is just heaped on women all their lives and increasingly now is heaped on men of all ages too.

35:15He was pre-FHM. Yes. You were, Ray. You just were. He most emphatically was. Good for him.

35:32Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. and your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. Should we just run through? Yes, some very quick.

36:07Oh, sorry, the Olivia Colman thing I was going to say. I went to see the preview of Hamnet, the movie, ahead of interviewing Maggie O 'Farrell. Right. And Olivia Colman. Yeah. She gave the little kind of speech beforehand and she was very, very funny and very lovely. And she definitely had a pixie haircut. Because I remember thinking, she just looked wonderful. I remember saying it on the podcast. She was wearing a blue blazer, culottes. Yeah. And I mean, this was November 2025, before culottes were everywhere. But so a year ago. Yeah, so she got very, very fast growing hair. What are you saying?

36:44I'm not saying anything. I actually had to look it up because I thought this is, I'm sure she had a pixie cut at the preview of Hamnet. And if she has had extensions put in, which lots of women do in order to aid the growing out process, absolute props to her because they look absolutely brilliant. She looks brilliant. Or maybe I just got it wrong and she just had it all tied back or whatever. But I've always very much admired her pixie cut. Well, she can get in touch. She could, couldn't she? What's going on? Olivia, don't be shy. Tim in York, I heard your presenters tonight. That's us. Tim, you can address us properly.

37:24Reading out further contributions to the item about the name used by CESPIC contractors. And I felt compelled to enlighten your audience as to where the Aussies have taken the promotion or naming of these businesses. It's a very, very formal email from Tim in York. We lived on Sydney's northern beaches for 10 years and laughed every time we saw the tankers from one contractor bearing the strapline number one in number twos. I mean, why couldn't that work? I really like that. That's absolutely, absolutely. Now, I'm sorry. I was looking for. Oh, yes. Looking for it because we need to lighten the mood.

38:06Marita says, I've just spotted this. It's Titty Bottle Park. I was wandering along the banks of the River Wharf in Otley. Beautiful, sunny Yorkshire. I think silly names are always welcome. Oh, they are. Titty Bottle Park, though. Why? Why is it called that? And another one from Sarah, who's in Shrewsbury. Just catching up on some podcasts after a lovely fortnight in Norway. So I don't know if you're still talking about place names. I will always talk about them. And you went to Norway and you gave it a very big thumbs up, didn't you? Oh, massive hard recommendation. Sarah tell us more about where you went in Norway wanted to say every time I pass a sign for the Shropshire village of Nocken I automatically ask myself I wonder if it has a shop and you're yeah that's good why wouldn't you and actually wouldn't you love to run the Nocken shop the Nocken shop I would I would actually seven types of turmeric and I think when you've got more than one type of turmeric in a powdered turmeric in a jar in a health food shop that's the sign that your neighborhood has come up isn't it i would i would think so but hasn't all hasn't it been debunked turmeric yeah as a health aid i've got no idea and i'm not confident enough to say yeah i've started the podcast by saying i'm not medically qualified and we're still not the last 40 minutes we've not got any wiser at all Maggie says, has this thread expired?

39:34I'll tell you what, no thread ever really expires on this podcast. You can return to them as often as you like. I've got a bit behind what with life admin and a first grandchild, the delight of which knows no bounds. Yes, absolutely lovely. Disappointed as I was to be put off a visit, a said grandchild, just four weeks old, had the sniffles. I felt I was sure I had the answer and dug my pot of Snuffle Babe out of the medicine cabinet. only to find the expiry date, 1994. And it's called, the product is called Snuffle Babe. Yeah. And Maggie basically says, yes, carry on using it. Oh, really? Yes.

40:15I think if you mean one of those vapour rub things, then I think that would be fine, wouldn't it? It's hard to see how that could expire. If it's still smelt all vapory and mentholy, it'll be okay. Yes, because, I mean, the smell is what you're paying for, isn't it? And that's the impact of the smell that you're after. Anyway, let's not start something. No, let's absolutely not. Helen says, I was thrilled to see you for the first time IRL in Cheltenham. Annika was a great guest, but really I was just there to see you. And I'm so excited. You're going on tour next year. Yes, I've read this out.

40:56Oh, Corporate Cathy is back. I'm back with not quite a bang, but almost a bang. What date do tickets still come on sale? And will we get to meet Eve? Very disappointed she didn't make an appearance today. Well, Eve was in Cheltenham, but she didn't come on stage, did she? Well, we could only... She's shyer than you might think. And also we could only have one extremely attractive blonde woman on stage with the two of us. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. So you just have to wait a turn. There's a limit. There is a limit. And this is another one on Simulavane from Wendy. Good to see you back together.

41:32Watching on YouTube. Looking forward to your session with Annika and also the podcast. I've just won a gold medal in today's pickle. Well, I mean, honestly, if you're not into pickle, P-I-C-L-E, you can find it on thetimes.com. I'm really old message today. So I don't know what's going to happen next. I got diamond today, actually, Wendy. Did you? Or did I? Was that yesterday? So today's is not in this country. Then I didn't get it. Perhaps I haven't even done it. Oh, my word. Is it a tough one? I'll do it. No, it's not a tough one. If you know it, you know it. Okay. But, yeah, I got the year very wrong.

42:08Anyway, Wendy, congratulations. She was only 59 miles out. A friend of mine was 450 yards out or something yesterday. I mean, people get so pedantic about this. If you don't know what we're talking about, you're missing out on a treat. It is one of those puzzles. It takes a nanosecond to do real sense of achievement if you get it right. But also really interesting. And it's properly educational. The photograph is always accompanied by an explanation of why it was taken, what the significance is. And actually, I've learned so much. I've had to think about things. The one that has really stayed with me, weirdly, was a photograph just taken in Minehead during the foot and mouth crisis.

42:42And it was just a deserted street. And I just thought, God, I could actually, because I'm such a townie, Jane, I'd forgotten about foot and mouth. I mean, it was a massive thing. 2007. I mean, I can't remember now. I'm sorry. I do remember it being a huge story. Gordon Brown was prime minister. I remember that. You know, cattle being burnt on pyres across the countryside, devastated farmers. Yeah. Really, really difficult circumstances. So it's little pinpricks like that through a photograph that make you think again about points in history. is absolutely brilliant. On Thursday, on the afternoon show, we are going to embrace Pickle, explain the week's Pickles and set a little bit of an audio tickle ourselves.

43:28So Pickle comes to the airwaves in the afternoon show. When's the afternoon show on, Jane? It's on Times Radio and it's easy to listen to Times Radio on digital radio, but also on the Times Radio app. It's so easy to install and it's completely free. And we're on Monday to Thursday between two o 'clock and four. Get involved, be there, be part of everything we do and just learn stuff like we do every single day. Yes, we do learn stuff every day. But back to the, I mean, God, we've meandered, even by our standards. We have. Anyway, keep an ear out for when tickets go on sale. We are doing a tour around the country.

44:01There just will be places that people are annoyed that we're not visiting. Well, there'll be plenty of places relieved that we're not visiting. Probably more of those. But we've absolutely... We've tried to cover. We've tried to get out of London and as far away as humanly possible for us. But, you know, hopefully you'll be able to get somewhere if you want to come and see us for the evening. Do you know what's so lovely? When we looked out in Times Square, we were doing the afternoon show from Times Square in Cheltenham, which is the kind of wine bar, come meet people from the Times, whatever.

44:35You know, you can sit down on a stool and do some day drinking. and we looked out from our little desk of news and actually it was just a sea of fantastic women of a certain age, most of them having a rosé wine. Good for them. All talking to each other, actually talking quite loudly, not listening to our show, that's the way that we like it. That's fine. Meeting new people, having a laugh, pointing at us, whatever. And I just thought, this is wonderful. This is absolutely wonderful. It's a little taste of what the live tour will be like. Yes. But do come along and it doesn't matter if you come on your own because you're almost bound to meet someone that you can have a little chat with.

45:15It's that kind of atmosphere. You'll be all right. Totally, totally, totally. Can I just say as well, there was a lady who popped into Times Square. I didn't mean to be kind of overly staring at you, but she had a fantastic, very short trench coat. It was like a half cut off trench coat. I'd just quite like to know where it was from. I'd quite like to buy one. Could you tell us where you got that, please? So a tall, slender lady with short, dark hair, and you had a kind of trench coat with a slight funnel neck on it too. I just thought it was absolutely divine. Trench coat with a funnel neck. Are you watching Traitors?

45:45I am, but I find the tasks really boring. Oh, the missions. Well, that's when you just go make a cup of tea. Yeah, I go for a bath. Yes. And then I come back down and join the round table. Yeah. The missions are pointless. Does anybody watch them? No, I think that's when everybody goes online and has a chat. Okay, because I shouldn't say this really, but I'm a bit baffled by they're raising money for charity and they have to whoop when they realise they've made another two. And you think, well, you're whooping, but you've probably been paid 55, 60, 70, 80, 100 grand to go on this show. Well, Maya Jammer's first trench coat that she wore was worth more than what they won in the task.

46:25Right. So there is that. However, that's not to say that I'm not enjoying it. No, and they've got to have a reason, haven't they, for them, you know, all getting together as celebrities. They've got to channel goodness somehow. Yeah, I just think James Blunt's outfits. So when he goes to do the task, he's like the 118 ad, isn't he? He's just... He makes me laugh. I mean, yeah, he's... No, he's always... He's been known as someone who can laugh at himself and he's not letting that one go. I just think when you see him next to Ross Kemp, you just think that is a spectrum of manhood going on there.

47:04I like them both. I like them both very much. Yeah, it's possible to like them both, isn't it? Yeah. It really is. I'm positive by some of the others. I'd like them to end up together by the end of the series. As a couple. Yes. Would you? Okay. A blunt Kemp. Right. Some people will find that funnier than others. Okay. Are we back tomorrow? I think we are back tomorrow. Yes. Yes, with more insightful stuff. And more rambling. And it buried, I admit it all, some conversational nuggets. Some conversational nuggets. I mean, I'll not forget the line bike jousting, that's for sure. So thank you for bringing that to my attention.

47:40It's Jane and Fee at times.radio. It is well remembered. Thank you. So we will speak again tomorrow and debunk some emails in. All of our previous threads are very much available to be used and well worn. Have a nice evening. Goodbye.

48:12congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with jane and fee thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day monday to thursday two till four on times radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case so you can get the radio online on dab or on the free times radio app off air is produced by eve salisbury and the executive producer is rosie cutler

49:18Apple Watch Series 12

49:24detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. When something significant happens in British politics, stories are always unfolding behind closed doors. The State of It podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times takes you inside the room where it happens. I'm Stephen Swinford, the political editor of The Times, and with me are Patrick Maguire, Lara Spirit and Ben Riley-Smith. We will bring you scoops and analysis about what is really going on in Westminster. Listen to The State of It twice a week wherever you get your podcasts.