I would consider myself a bit more doughnut adjacent...

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0:49Welcome to the haunted library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place From gothic masterpieces to pulpy penny dreadfuls Join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week Find The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts

1:25Welcome to Off Air for Monday. It is the 26th of October and it's one of those very grimy, wet, grey, dark days. Spooky week as well, of course, because it's Halloween on Saturday. Now, Eve is here with me. Fia's gone to that wellness establishment and she'll be writing about that for The Times. So, hope you're fit and well this Monday. Fia will be back next week. I'm back in the room. And yes, normal service will be resumed then. How are you feeling this morning, Jane? Yes, I'm all right, thank you. Why? Feeling perky, are you? Are you worried because I brought in the satsumas? No. I'm just remembering that you committed us to abstaining from caffeine in solidarity with Fi.

2:14Oh, God, yeah. While she's on her retreat. I didn't mean that. I'm sure she's not giving us a second thought. No. But you swam in here this morning and the first thing you did was go to the coffee bar. I think I've forgotten that pledge. But she won't know about this, so that's absolutely fine. She's not listening. I'm thinking of her. And a week of, or even a couple of days of deprivation in extreme wellness circumstances wouldn't suit me. Do you think you could do it? No. Do you think you'd benefit from it? Absolutely not. Someone I know just came back literally yesterday from 10 days on a silent retreat.

2:47I don't think either of us could do that. 10 days? I couldn't do 10 minutes. No. Well, I could do... Actually, probably I couldn't. I could do eight minutes, maybe. What appealed to him about it? He's quite into his meditation, so it was like a Buddhist centre. Right. I think it was obviously extremely challenging, but confronting in a way that he seeks. Yeah. I'm quite happy we're not confronting anything. No. I think I'm not looking for anything deeper. Are you? I don't want to find out what's below the surface. Yeah, well, sometimes. I don't mind at all being on my own. I don't mind peace and quiet.

3:25But the thought of enforced silence, that would be too much for me. In fact, I very rarely sit in total silence. I've always got music on or the radio or a podcast or an audio book. But then I also do think that that's something that's a bit wrong with us all now. Oh, do you? Okay, go on. That we're actually really quite bad with being in silence. And I think sometimes you don't, having just slated the silent Buddhist centre, we don't actually give ourselves a minute just for our brains to be quiet and recoup I don't think we're very good at being in quiet anymore No, you're probably right about that and I must admit I always insist on a kind of hubbub as soon as I'm awake yeah, on comes the radio and yeah, from then on I'm accompanied by sound until my head hits the pillow and I don't know what that does to us Well, there's a topic, a cheerful one Jane and Fee at Time Stop Radio we have had an email about Eve it's not providing whether it is from a relative It's headlined, please help Eve.

4:24Help me. I love you guys. Sorry, I know Jane and or Fee loathe that term. I think it's more me than Fee, but I don't think she's that keen either. I just wanted to check something that keeps niggling at me. Okay, so Lucy's worried. Is Eve getting appropriately compensated for the time she's spending on air? I used to work in the industry at the BBC, but you probably won't want to mention that. No, I'm very happy to. And would often be required to step up and go on air for free, as it was assumed that it was for my own benefit and career progression, when I actually had no ambition to be on the airwaves.

4:58By the way, I just don't understand that. Lucy, I really, I love your commitment and I absolutely know and fully appreciate that there's a whole skill set in radio that is nothing to do with sitting in front of a microphone. But boy, you couldn't have kept me away from it. As soon as I knew... You had nothing but ambition. As soon as I knew it was a possibility, I was in there like a rat up a drainpipe. And other people have been suffering ever since. OK, I had my first baby in May 2020, she goes on to say, during Covid. And you both constantly mentioned pregnant women and new mothers. It meant a lot to me at the time.

5:35And I'll always remember that. Thank you. Jane and I are birthday twins, says Lucy, although 25 years apart and I live in Manchester. Well, I'll forgive you for that. 25 years apart. oh, okay, so you're a proper spring chicken, Lucy. And I know that when Fee and I were podcasting during the pandemic, we did try to mention people with babies, and especially newborns, because that must have been such a tough, tough experience. Lucy, thank you for the email. Over to Eve now. Are you being properly looked after? Do people need to be worried about you? You don't need to be worried about me. Jane buys me a coffee every morning.

6:07Every morning. Which is very nice. Yeah. This is interesting because you didn't come into this job wanting to be in front of a microphone, did you? Yeah, no. I'm paid my salary. Yeah. I'm not paid to chip in to this. But you've ended up doing more and more. Yes, and I do chip in. But I think when we started incorporating production more into the podcast, the idea and feeling was that it was organic and it was natural because this really is what we're all like at the desks and the conversations that we have away from the mics. Sitting down. anyway yeah so it's really no effort or taxing because this genuinely is how we interact with one another yeah so it felt like a natural move i mean eve's in a difficult position here lucy and i feel for her but i think you need to know she's all right yes yeah no i'm okay i'm happy she's all right uh but lucy thank you for being concerned and actually one of the things i'm proudest of is exactly what eve said there the kind of organic we didn't set out to involve eve or hannah or rosie but it's ended up being a kind of quite refreshing occasionally intergenerational exchange of views and experiences.

7:13And actually, you don't get that in every other podcast. We know there are ones that are similar to our fair. I mean, not as good, but similar. But I'm not sure that they involve younger people in the way that we try to do. And none of us were forced into this position. We were checked to make sure we were okay with it. Lucy, she's all right. I'm all right. Weren't you doing a bit of kiddie care over the weekend? Didn't you tell me you were picking up a relative? I did. I went and picked up my boyfriend's niece and nephew from their school on Friday. And how did that go? It was so fun. Fun? Because it's a novelty.

7:51It's sort of fun in the sense that I did it once and I won't really be doing it again, but it was fun on the day because it was very sweet. They kind of spotted us from the windows. Are they at primary school? One of them is in nursery. They're 17. No, go on. They're five and three respectively. and they swirled from the window and then just got so so excited i mean were they excited to see us or were they excited because it was half term possibly that who could say yeah and then we took them for a very stressful hot chocolate in the cafe around the corner it always appears like it might be quite good fun but these things are actually quite stressful and they're so popular they all the kids know each other so well and they're like shouting each other off the street and you're worried they're gonna run in the road oh i have a lot of respect yeah for parents have you okay a school run is no joke no it certainly isn't and also they've got their own coffee and And Chino orders, haven't they?

8:37Yeah, even at that age. They have baby Chinos these days. No, I don't know why I'm stopping. I want the baby Chino. They came in when my kiddies were small and I couldn't believe that they actually... I mean, basically, these places are on a high... I mean, they make so much money out of them. Just froth, isn't it? It's literally just frothed milk with a bit of chocolate powder on top. Pay£2.80 for some froth. We've seen you coming. Anyway, I'm glad to know that you've done that successfully. You carried out that mission to pick them up from school. They were the right children. And you brought them to the right place.

9:09And the teachers were aware. They did look at us slightly funny when we first arrived and they said, oh, right, yeah, you're the aunt and uncle we were warned about. Warned about. Not just some people lurking, weirdly. Oh, God, don't even joke about it. How was your weekend, Jane? You didn't get blown away. I didn't get blown away, but I made a couple of cock-ups, as I always do. I wanted to go and see the film Pressure. Have you seen Pressure with Andrew Scott? No. Oh, it's been, I mean, there's all sorts of talk about him getting an Oscar nomination. In fact, I think I gather he's going to be competing against himself because he's also put in another brilliant performance in a film that hasn't been released yet.

9:44Elsinore. That's it. That's the one I've been aware of. Yeah, you've heard about that. But it's interesting because Pressure is, I don't think, I haven't seen it, unfortunately, because I was going with a friend and she thought I'd booked and I didn't think we'd need to and I hadn't booked, so we didn't see it. But I met her at the cinema. Did you find yourself under a spot of pressure? I did for the theatre. Also, I couldn't get on the first bus that came along because it was rammed because of the rain. Anyway, suffice to say, she ended up paying to see a completely different film, which was Fatherland, but I loved it.

10:11Fatherland's very arty. It's not my normal thing. It's very short. It's in black and white. There are subtitles. But you know what? It achieves such a lot in a relatively short amount of time. Highly recommended. Very, very good indeed. Are you going to try again to see Pressure? I might, because there's a showing after a hair appointment later in the week, so I might be able to... Busy, busy, busy. I might be able to shove it in. Because it's a kind of, I think I've heard from people who've seen it, it's a bit of a workaday World War II thriller about the impact of a Met Office, a meteorologist, played by Andrew Scott, on the date of the D-Day landings.

10:46So, you know, I like that sort of thing. I find it really educational. And I would like it. But I think it's his performance that has made it something that people are desperate to see. And how did you fare with the clocks changing? Difficult. How about you? uh no i was all right well i was still out so i just didn't really notice i was very much trying to stay up late watching telly so i didn't wake up too early the next morning and that's the difference between us um no i um i'd had been to worcester on saturday uh to see my sister because it's my dad's funeral later on this week so we're doing the prep and choosing photographs and stuff so you need to be in the same room basically uh and our journey i went with my daughter and our journey to Worcester on the train was held up by a new one on me okay so I've had any number of rail experiences over the years this was a train held up by a swan on the line and we were actually stopped a complete standstill for about 20 minutes around Maidenhead because a swan was on the line and they are protected creatures and they cannot be moved that's got to be in the Maidenhead echo somewhere well I don't know what happened in the end we don't even know whether it was our train that was directly impacted or one of the trains in front but obviously that meant that every train had to stop so i mean as a very regular rail user i haven't heard that one before yeah nor have i but it sort of makes sense swans hold that sort of air of entitlement that they would hold up some trains yeah well they're they're owned by the king so you're not allowed to touch them oh so you just have to let them do just have to let them do their thing so if they choose to waddle across a rail line that's up to them i don't know why they don't do it more often.

12:26Yeah. They could have all kinds of an impact on all sorts of different people and journeys. That's not what encouraged them. They might be listening. Actually, they might be. Rose is in Somerset. On the subject of homemade lampshades, Fee was talking about this last week, my mum made one for my bedside light out of my dad's old boxer shorts. Oh. It's a nice floral design. The memory made me laugh, so thank you. Keep up the excellent chat. You often make me laugh out loud on the allotment, which has caused me to receive some funny looks. I'd love to hear more about allotments. I think there's a real culture there.

12:59And I think it takes a lot these days to get an allotment. You think it's a massive waiting list, depending on where you are in the country. And they just seem like a really good idea. It's such a lifesaver for some people. Oh, yeah. In every way. I know some people, they do allotment timeshares. So there's about four people tending to one allotment and between them, they just go up and visit. So you don't have as much of a commitment, but you still get to reap some of the rewards. Oh, OK. Well, that sounds like a good idea. quite a nice way to do it um now we did have a very welcome guest on thursday um that was lady glenconnor and i've said it before but she does she appears most years doesn't she on off air and she is a delight i would say we both agree that yes absolutely yeah and i'm you know as you'll know i'm not um all that royal family positive all of the time and i've definitely got my issues uh but lady glenconnor is um she's just well we said it last week she's just one of those positive people who's been through so many challenging experiences in life um and she's just good to spend time with because she's completely without bitterness and rancor yeah yeah she really is she just you can't help but sort of like your mouth kind of just twitches while she's talking with a smile yeah she has such a light approach to things to difficult things yeah anyway this is from ruth who um enjoyed hearing lady glenconnor last week on thursday um she does I'll start by saying, I hope Fi's Germanic adventure is going well and she's getting enough oaky Chardonnay and doughnuts.

14:29I'm much more doughnut adjacent than Fi is, so I think Fi might be a bit better at dealing with the deprivation than I would be. Fi doesn't like Chardonnay and I don't either. Do you like Chardonnay? Not particularly. No, I don't really like wine. Anyway, I think we'll find out from Fi next week quite how restrictive this place is. I think it's quite hard going. I don't think it's a place where you can sneak out. I only went to a health farm once and my friend and I broke out to try and get alcohol on the first night. You may want to take a look at yourself. Yeah, well, I was younger then. What were you going to say?

15:07I think Fee was saying that about donuts and Oki Chardonnay when she signed herself into the one in Austria off the book of her divorce. And that's what she was craving. That's what she actually just wanted instead of going to this super strict... Okay, got it. Yeah, you're right. and I do recommend Fi's chapter on that wellness experience in our wonderful book Did I? Say that out loud. Still available Probably cost you about 80p on World of Books I really ought to put a link for it in the description I've got a link to Peter Thornton's book Right, but not to ours Do you know what? Sorry, would you mind doing that please?

15:40Especially as the festive season approaches. Sorry, I will I mean, it will be really cheap on all reasonable outlets and you could make someone's Christmas with that. Mm-hmm.

16:21midi.com to book your first visit today that's join m-i-d-i.com insurance coverage varies check with your plan for coverage welcome to the haunted library have you come in search of a tale this podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From gothic masterpieces to pulpy penny dreadfuls, join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts.

17:01I am writing to you, says Ruth, from a very autumnal queue in West London. I have really enjoyed your... What makes a queue autumnal? Que the place. K-E-W. God. sorry yeah she wasn't just lining up outside she was just bored in queues i thought she'd god i mean that would that's really impressive if you can do that um queue gardens i bet it's delightful at queue gardens at the moment beautiful colors and before i get help i got held up by the swan on saturday i was enjoying really enjoying the bucolic idyll of autumnal rainy england uh it was absolutely beautiful it really was um and queue is a wonderful place and the gardens are well worth exploring i just sometimes find it a bit noisy because of the planes going overhead it depends on the wind direction but sometimes you get so many planes overhead at queue that you you can't pretend you're in the middle of the countryside because you're actually about five minutes from heathrow airport yeah anyway um i've thoroughly enjoyed your previous interviews with lady glenconnor and i have meant to write in before uh but this recent appearance has finally prompted me her wonderful memories of hokum hall that is how it's pronounced i believe so okay i think it depends how posh you are all right well not very in my case always spark brilliant conversations with my dad says ruth who grew up on the estate alongside and glen connor lady glen connor my granddad was a gardener on the estate and my dad lived there in a tiny house with his parents and five brothers he is a few years younger than lady anne but he remembers her with such fondness in fact she gave him his very first job sweeping the floors at the pottery there he always says she was lovely and very kind to him when my dad read lady-in-waiting it brought back a flood of memories for him he actually decided to write to her and she very kindly sent a letter back amazingly she mentioned that she remembered him from the pottery i cannot imagine how many years ago that would be now it must have been the early 50s so for her to recall basically a local urchin who swept the floors for all those decades ago is incredible.

19:06My dad's great childhood friend from the estate was Barbara Barnes, who went on to be the nanny to both Anne's children and Princes William and Harry. I met Barbara several times when I was a child. When we were up in Hocum, we'd often visit her parents' house on the estate. I was fascinated as a child by their sitting room wall, where every single Christmas card they'd ever had from Charles and Diana was proudly displayed in a framed case. Wow. Gosh, I can imagine. Oh my gosh. Hearing Lady Anne on Times Radio brought back so many wonderful memories. Thank you for bringing those up. My dad is very old and I know I won't be able to have these conversations with him for much longer.

19:43So your part in keeping these memories alive is much appreciated. Much love from Ruth. Thank you very much, Ruth. And I'm really glad you enjoyed that conversation. Lady Anne was a little bit gloomy about her prospect for writing another book, wasn't she? Well, she was, but she said she might do one on hair. Yeah, then she thought she might have one on her. So let's not write off the possibility. But I'm glad to hear of an anecdote that lines up with our view of her, of how nice she is. Yeah, actually, wouldn't it be awful if we'd got one, say? Well, enter Cilla Black, perhaps? I'm just groping for it now.

20:16Hang on. Hang on! Where did I put it? I've got it, I've got it. I think Nathan's written before, but we love Nathan. Thank you. You can cut all that faffing out. Thanks. Don't leave it in. it's yes nathan welcome aboard again i'd love to have been on a flight with nathan i don't know whether could you could we arrange it for nathan to be on a flight when i'm going to one of my greek holidays you wouldn't want to nathan trust me yeah if you think silver black is bad no i'm really i'm so nice on planes because i just i can't believe i'm on holiday so i just really i'm just very very polite well as i am in most circumstances a little bit of an incident on the tube this morning, actually, when a woman wanted to sit next to me.

20:58She wanted to. It wasn't that there was a spare seat. There was a spare seat. That's a good point. I'm glad you pulled me up on that. Yeah, I mean, to be fair, it's Monday morning and it was wet and people weren't in the best of humour and I understand that completely. But my raincoat, I came in all weather gear this morning because it really is quite rough out there. Very sensible shoes as well. Grifam grippers I've got on today. It's really slippery outside the building. It's very slippery, exactly. and at my age you cannot be too careful and I mean that because I suddenly think what the hell will I do if I break an ankle?

21:29Doesn't bear thinking about it. Anyway, this woman, she got on and she sort of looked at the place next to me and my raincoat had just very, very slightly and I mean by about half an inch encroached on the other seat. Oh, for goodness sake. I know and I just sort of picked it up and held it around me in a slightly kind of awkward and embarrassed way. I suppose she didn't want to put her bottom down on my wet raincoat. Yeah, thinking about it, she probably had a point. As it gets into the winter season and you do need to incorporate more layers, we just do all slightly expand with that and we take up a bit more space.

22:05We do, we all take up some more space. And it's hard to always be completely aware of everything. No, you're very right. But you're so wise. I'm with you, Jane. Oh, thank you. Wonderful. Just don't let it touch me. It's just worth saying that we are speaking. It's Monday, October the 26th, as I might have mentioned before. and this is the day when people are talking quite seriously about Nicki Minaj becoming the White House press secretary. So just, I mean, that's just to mark your cards in a timeline so you know whereabouts in the history of the planet you are. I mean, did you ever think? It honestly feels like a fever dream.

22:36I know, it really does actually. Yeah, it really does. You don't need to drink anymore, you really don't because it's like you're piddled half the time at the reality of what's going on. Incredible. Here's Nathan, where we started with Nathan some hours ago now. Unfortunately, I cannot not deny, I can't not deny what countless crews have reported about Scylla Black. It gave us all a sinking feeling when we saw she was on the manifest. I conveyed her, I love this, I conveyed her quite a few times to Malaga. For the first time I had her in my care and she lived up to her loathsome reputation. I don't know what was going on in her life.

23:14It is unfortunate to present such an effervescent persona on TV and then to be rude, dismissive and unpleasant to have on board and shelter the illusion that she presented to millions of people being a former national treasure. And that's the problem, isn't it? If you're an old cow on TV, by all means be horrible on a plane. But if you're earning a load of money, and she will have been earning a lot of money, from being super approachable and lovely, keep it up. Disgusting. I've got quite a thick skin, says Nathan. I've had to manage tantrums from predominantly businessmen and reality stars during my career in the skies.

23:54But I truly didn't expect the level of hostility from Ms Black that she exceeded on the occasions I carried her. By the way, what was Stella Black's real surname? Do you know? No. It's white. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm pleased, says Nathan, I wasn't serving the Barbados flight, which she also frequented and was apparently equally hostile to the crew there. But was she also then widely awful to all customer-serving staff or was it specifically flights? It's really weird. I can bring something to this. Oh. Bet you weren't expecting that. A friend of mine worked for a lead... I still have a friend of mine.

24:31Worked for a leading shoe company and she started her career working in a shop. It was part of her management training. And I remember her telling me that Cilla Black came into the branch that she was working in and was very pleasant. So, you know, I don't know. So maybe someone from cabin crew seriously wronged Cilla Black early on. Maybe she's just possibly an incredibly nervous flyer. Could that be it? Because I know flying doesn't, it's not for everybody. Being a nervous flyer doesn't make you a malicious person. No, well, it shouldn't. I mean, in fact, I'd be more inclined to be nicer because the people are there for my safety.

25:10She'd often have her PA with her, wouldn't she? so then surely they could communicate that, oh, she's just quite nervous. Yeah, you'd hope. Yeah, I suppose that's true, but anyway, guess what? Because I was reading, there's quite a famous anecdote, isn't there, where Cilla wouldn't speak and the PA would communicate for her and then one of the cabin crew got a bit pissed off with it all and leant over and said, I knew you couldn't sing, but I didn't know you couldn't speak. God, yes, you're right. I think we might have used that. That's all very funny. if you I suspect we might have a few people who work on BA and other airlines listening to this if you have any celebrity encounters you're able to tell us about them please feel free, Jane and Fee at Time Stop Radio should point out that Nathan is a former BA cabin service director so I'm afraid he won't have the pleasure of finding me on his manifest any time soon because he's stopped all that he'll be devastated but this is, let's just put this one to you he has carried on many an occasion Lorraine Kelly.

26:09Now, Eve, do you think Lorraine lived up to her image or was a right old moo? I have to believe that she was sunny and delightful. She was! Thank God. Lorraine Kelly was a pleasure, kind and friendly. Right. That's that put to bed. I honestly think civilisation would truly crumble if we found out. There's only a few good ones left. Yeah. Of which, Shane, you are one. Thank you. I've been meaning to send this for a week or two. Says, oh, Anonymous. I drove through this village in a neighbouring canton recently. Now, this Anonymous contributor is one of our, surprisingly, we've got quite a few listeners in Switzerland.

26:56And it's a shame we can't use your name, Anonymous, because it is great. She's got a fantastic first name and a fantastic surname. In fact, she's got two surnames. So she's classy. She's one of our classy listeners. I drove through this village in a neighbouring canton recently. It was in the arse end of nowhere, up a mountain in the Valais, which is quite a religious canton, which is why my husband and I really laughed at his name, picture attached. Your podcast keeps me sane with a good bit of British humour, says Anonymous. Well, the village is spelt B-I-T-S-C-H. How's it pronounced? Bitch.

27:34So, yeah, anonymous. I mean, I didn't realise that... I don't know anything about Switzerland, actually, and I haven't been. And I didn't realise that some cantons are, I don't know, more religious than others, I suppose some would be. It's quite a... Have you been to Switzerland? Only to go on skiing. Is he skiing? Yeah, via Geneva, yeah. So we really know, which I'm so embarrassed about. So you've just kind of crossed through it? Yeah. Yeah. but doesn't sorry can't bring us anything no good chocolate okay and lots of people thank you very good chocolate lots of people still emailing about just about death and bereavement and everything and I honestly I can't I said it last week but it's worth repeating it's incredibly touching that so many of you have emailed just like Fi's mum who doesn't listen because it's not for her my dad never hadn't got a clue about the podcast absolutely I mean I tried to explain the concept once or twice and just his eyes just glazed over you could just see him see him thinking what and I don't blame him for that because even a podcast is quite hard to define and to be honest even though I do want I struggle to define what it's about not surprising if you've ever heard it but it would I think would have meant a great deal to him that so many people have just actually his death and his dying has made so many of you think about your own experiences and I really appreciate as well that so many different experiences and so many different thoughts This is from Maria.

28:59I think we can use Maria's name. I think, Jane, you were absolutely right to be with your dad. And thankfully, you have great employers, as I do, who are sympathetic to this. I was also with my dad when he died aged 90, two and a half years ago. I held his hand and talked to him up to and after the end. And I'm so grateful to have been there along with my brother and my eldest son. It wasn't scary. He was my dad, my beloved dad, who would have done anything for me. and it was the least I could do. You both kept me going through those tricky days and now you're keeping me going again while I'm caring for my incredibly resilient 91-year-old mother who has terminal cancer.

29:39As I try to sleep in the little bed in the room next to hers, you're my constant companions. Thank you. Maria, I'm thinking of you. I hope the next couple of days and weeks are all right and I think lots of us can particularly relate to that business of sleeping in a tiny bed because you don't always have a double bed when you're reaching these points in your life or your parents' life. So weirdly, that is a bit odd, sleeping in a small bed. I mean, I found that a bit strange. Anyway, on a different note, says Maria, re-empty nesters. Our youngest son has just started at KCL. That's King's College London, isn't it?

30:15Yeah. His accommodation is just across the road from Borough Market. And I'm guessing this must be very close to Times Towers. I may have to be a fangirl and just loiter around outside. Mercifully for you two, I am up north most of the time. Love having you back together, but Eve, Hannah and Rosie are all fabulous too. Well, that's true. That is true. Maria, obviously thinking of you with your mum, but yes, your son is very close to Times Tower. What fabulous locations have your university halls. I mean, that is amazing. That's incredible. Because that is a brilliant location. Because I didn't go to uni in London, I do wonder sometimes about accommodation for students in London.

30:55But they must be in some really incredible locations. And some really shit ones. And some really shit ones, yeah, well, you said it. You didn't know you were in Leeds, weren't you? What was your Hall of Residence like? It was very fun. Very fun. It was very nice, yeah, it was really nice, actually. So, obviously, you go up to university around this time of year and Leeds is so green, headingly way where the halls was. so I really remember this exact weather and the leaves really turning and everything being so autumnal and vibrant as that specific time of year when we moved up and I was getting to know the city.

31:31Well it's interesting I was talking to my daughter today about what's happened in Serbia and how this student movement has got rid of quite an unpleasant nationalist leader and I did say to her that um it is amazing what students can do yes whereas i'm not dissing uh students in britain and of course there are some very active political bodies in students and all the rest of it and student unions and but the idea of you know proper toppling of a of a nasty nationalist leader by a powerful student movement would you and your cohort at leeds have been capable of that i think it would have been just ever so slightly beyond us well you'd have had to get up really early yeah oh my god i don't i never once went to a 9am lecture right you're still paying that student loan off

32:31we have a guest today don't we we do jane and it's the wildly successful all her books are bestsellers um writer of uh historical fiction philippa gregory and her new book is called here's eve it's called royal witch and it's set in 1420 the 15th century right that took us a couple of we've had to rehearse this make sure we got the right century uh no i've read the first couple of chapters of the book i confess i haven't finished it yet but honestly it's brilliant because you just plunge straight into all the action of a 15th century court and the intrigue. Well, she's joining us today as well to do our book slot, which we normally do on a Monday on the live show.

33:15And so we thought it'd be quite nice to do both. So there'll be a bit of book recommendation from Philip Gregory. And you have to be so well read to be able to put together the books that she puts together because there's so much context. She does a lot of research. A lot of research. And actually, is it a good time to mention that we've got a great guest on tomorrow? Perfect time. Yes. Who is it tomorrow? Delia Smith. Only Delia Smith. Now, Delia and I, I have interviewed her on Woman's Hour some years ago. I mean, she doesn't really need any introduction. Her husband has just died, actually, and this is her kind of, she's sort of re-entering the public world, isn't she?

33:51And she's got a new book out, which is actually, talking of student movements, it's fiercely political. And some wise words in this new book of hers. Not a cookbook. It's about how we really could, if we got together, properly change the world. So Delia Smith with us tomorrow on Off Air. Very much looking forward to that. Let's end before we get to Philippa Quegory. This is no time to develop an affected lisp. Or is it? Amy has written with news of male allyship. I had an uncomfortable moment on the train when a well-dressed older man aggressively stared me out because I asked if he wouldn't mind moving out of the way for me.

34:33He proceeded to stare at me, pushing his face into mine in order to intimidate. I stared back and had the courage to say quite loudly, why are you trying to intimidate me? He looked taken aback and said, I'm not. A lovely young man then piped up, actually you are, and it's a bit creepy to be honest, mate. The man looked away and ignored me for the rest of the 10 minute journey. But that young man's intervention changed the entire situation on its head. We need the good men to stand up for us. They are out there. They are, Amy. I mean, it's really just that simple, isn't it? It is that simple. We shouldn't require any man to intervene on our behalf because other men shouldn't behave badly.

35:14But there is no doubt that sometimes they do. Good to hear about that, Amy. Thank you very much. And thank you for all the lovely emails over the course of the weekend. Let's bring in our guest today, great novelist, Philippa Gregory. Hello, Philippa. Hello, nice to be here. Well, it's really good of you to come in. And we were just talking about how medieval folk talked about the end of the world. And you were telling me that actually they talked about it all the time. Well, yes, because they live in a world where there's a great deal of unexplained events all the time anyway. I mean, we have events that are disturbing, but we can explain them, but we can't control them.

35:48And I think that is the very circumstance in which you start looking for magical and demonic explanations because you're out of control. And so the medieval world, with even less science than we have, was permanently surprised by things that happened. Right, of course, that's true. They didn't have storms with names, did they, that they knew were coming? No, but they did believe that storms were caused by storm bringers who swung down from the clouds and directed the storms, and that witches could cause storms by paddling in lakes and pools, and that you could detect people doing that. Right, which brings us on to your latest book, which is called Royal Witch.

36:24Now, this is the story of Eleanor Cobham. She is a very young woman, but an ambitious one. And that's not said in a judgmental kind of way. She arrives at the court of Henry V. And what ensues? Well, she makes her mind up that she's going to rise and get away from her small hometown in Surrey. And so she first is made of honour to another woman that nobody's heard of, Jacqueline of Hynalt, who was a freedom fighter in Holland and Zealand and the Netherlands and is completely forgotten in her own home. But she was really Joan of Arc for them against the empire of Philip of Burgundy. Right, do you know what?

37:03I was looking at the book at the weekend and I realised that this is a tube station on the central line, isn't it? Oh, yes, of course it is. Yes, of course it is. And that was the only thing I knew. I mean, isn't that ridiculous? Absolutely. So she's not entirely forgotten. No, she's not. She's immortalised in a tube station, but nobody knows it's about her. Well, so tell me more about her. Well, she was inherited Zeeland, Holland and quite a lot of northern France, the province of Hainault. Her capital city was Mons and she was squeezed by her uncle and her terrible husband out of the ownership of her properties.

37:39And so she came to England to meet up with Henry V to ask to borrow his army so she could invade her own country and win it back. And he died during the time she was here making her plans. And so she turned to his brother, Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester. They married and he took his army and her and Eleanor Cobham, her maid, to invade her country. And they won. And so you've got this kind of big triumphant moment whereupon Humphrey leaves her at that point and goes home with Eleanor of Cobham. And Jacqueline loses ground and ends up as a guerrilla fighter in her own country, trying to get her country back.

38:21and amazingly she is captured by Philippa Burgundy. She's put under house arrest and she marries her jailer, which means that he is accused in turn of treason to Philippa Burgundy. I mean, this is why people read your books, Philippa, because this is just amazing. It's just true. I mean, I haven't even started on the fiction yet. This is genuinely what happened. And so she said that she would give up her life to save him. So she gives up her lands and Philippa Burgundy takes all the lands, which is what he wanted in the first place. And this is her last husband, her fourth husband, and she marries him for love.

38:57Oh, well, that's good. It is good. Can I just say, that is good. Also in this book is, well, Marjorie Jourdemain. Now, this is another, I know you specialise, don't you, in women lost to history. It's something you're passionate about. Who was Marjorie? Marjorie is known really only because she appears at the trial of witchcraft that Eleanor Cobham is involved in and she disappears from history when she's burned for being a witch. But she, of course, prior to that, she had a very, very successful business as a midwife and a herbalist and a healer at the royal court. So she was so successful that she went from her little village outside Westminster to be a sort of royal physician.

39:37And then she's so successful that she helps Eleanor out with a spell. And it is that that is everybody's undoing. So Eleanor is accused of witchcraft. she almost certainly did something. She's accused of Roger Bolingbroke, who's an alchemist philosopher. He almost certainly did something. And the evidence that's produced is of black mass and trying to kill the king. Well, we are approaching Halloween, of course. And as ever with your books, you do an enormous... There's a big section of bibliography at the end of the book where you just tell us about all the books that you've used in order to write Royal Witch.

40:16And I think you've brought some of them in. haven't you? I brought just three of them. Okay, just tell me about the three. Okay, the first one is by Malcolm Gaskell. It's called Worlds of Fear and Wonder. And the subtitle is Living with the Supernatural Past and Present. And it's one of the few really, really good accounts of witchcraft in that Malcolm Gaskell doesn't believe in the power of magic and witchcraft, but writes about it as if he suspends disbelief. So what you is a really clear account of what people were doing, what they hoped it would do, and whether they believed it or not, as opposed to the rather sort of snooty attitude that some historians take to witchcraft, which this is all rubbish and these are stupid people.

40:59Well, that's the important thing. We need to try to understand their world and what they didn't know because they couldn't know it. Exactly. In storms, for example. Exactly, and in any case, everybody reads their horoscope today. Roger Bolingbroke is actually on trial for drawing up the King's horoscope. It doesn't really behove us to say how foolish that is that they read it. We all read it. Everybody's got a thing about knocking on wood or walking under ladders or black cats or anything like that. We all live in worlds of signs and wonders. It's just we don't all share the vocabulary and share the discussion of them in the way that they did in the medieval world.

41:36So that book again, Worlds of Fear and Wonder by Malcolm Gaskell. Absolutely. Sounds interesting. Now, your second one. This is Silvia Federici and it's called Caliban and the Witch. And I really love this book because it looks at the witch trials and the accusations of witches, not as it usually is looked at as a sort of rise of popular hysteria for who knows what reason. It looks at it as a direct result, trying to rid women of their power. So it comes at a time when the workings of the merchants, the workings of the mercantile economy is moving poor people off the land. So the women who have always lived really close to the land emotionally, but also practically fed off the land, harvested it, grazed it.

42:23You know, yeah, really, really their livelihood depends upon free access to the land. The enclosures come and they're cut off from the land. And in order to prevent the enormous riots, a lot of riots happen anyway, but in order to, in a sense, disempower the women, women start to be identified as witches. And you have this really extraordinary numbers, thousands and thousands of women across Europe killed, accused of doing something that some of them have never even heard of. So the witchcraft accusations, in a sense, precede the trials. So first of all, people say there are witches and they are doing this and then they try women for it.

43:04So in that sense, it's an absolute anti-women campaign, which is extraordinarily successful in alienating women from men and alienating women workers from men workers. And alienating women from other women. And alienating women from other women. Wow. If only things have changed. But actually, it still goes on in some form. What's Conjuring Spirits about? This is edited by You Tell Me. This is edited by Claire Fanger, and I literally brought this in for you to make you happy, because this is, I think, an extraordinary thing. It is an edited edition of genuine medieval spells used which appear in genuine medieval spell books and were probably used by genuine medieval magicians.

43:49So Eleanor Cobham has a spell to create the death of the king. It is in here. I recommend that you don't try it at home. OK, no, I won't. But what I can recommend for you is a spell to incite love. Well, go on, let's give that a whirl. So I won't take you all the way through it because it's quite a prolonged process. You have to have three doves. You have to kill them all at different places, place them in a special circle. And then you go back and you find what the demon who is helping you, of course, has left in the circle. And the demon that you need for this particular task is Zagam. So remember that because you don't want any other floating-by demon.

44:30It's Zagam's demand for this. And so you go back, you kill your dove, you tear your dove to pieces with your teeth at one threshold. You go to another threshold, you summon Zagam, kill your dove, do the terry bit. Next threshold, kill the dove, do the terry bit, make a circle and some magical shapes in the ground, which I can show you. and then you say, oh Zagam, take this dove which I sacrificed to you and then you go away, you come back. Zagam will leave an object in the middle of your circle, pick it up, take it away, keep it, it says, diligently and purely and when you wish to show it to a woman, this is for a man or presumably...

45:14Or a gay woman. Or a gay woman. When you wish to show it to a woman you love, she will love you beyond reason indeed. This is proven. Yeah, or you could just go on Hinge. You could. Yeah, but that's more fun. But is that proven? Is that guaranteed? No, it isn't. Will they love you beyond reason? Yeah, there you go. Philippa, thank you very, very much. It's lovely to see you. It always is. And your book, Royal Witch, I've no doubt it'll be another storming bestseller. You put so much work into what you do and you're a brilliant, brilliant writer. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Philippa Gregory and her new book, Royal Witch, is out now and it will find its fans because they are many and varied and she is very, very knowledgeable.

45:59Join us tomorrow when Delia, doesn't need a surname, is our guest. Bye. Bye.

46:22Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

47:11Welcome to the haunted library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From gothic masterpieces to pulpy penny dreadfuls, join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts.