I've got an ointment for that, sir

0:00Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. requires iPhone 11 or later. At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible.

0:43From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech so you can outthink, outpace and outperform. PwC, so you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like.

1:22And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average.

2:00See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

2:28my friends have been disabled that's what happens when you get on holiday miserable kids right uh we're on welcome back to off air with jane but not fee this week because uh fee is now on holiday eve is here but won't be for the rest of the week because obviously she's got another holiday but it's so great that you're here today at least i mean thanks that's okay i thought i'd show up say hello to you get you settled back in oh god and don't think i'm not incredibly reassured by that your approach is gratifying uh which holiday is this i'm going to turkey with my family okay you've got to see your family that makes perfect sense how was your holiday uh it was actually incredibly relaxing um just had a relatively short break in a beautiful hotel it has to be said, on a new Greek island for me.

3:16I know we both get a bit confused, don't we, about which islands you've been to. I know which ones I've been to. In fact, I might just do a quick list. Oh, come on. I started off with Kos. This summer? No, no, no, this is way back. This is in the 90s. Then I left Greece alone for quite a long time until I went to the Athens Olympics. As I always like to emphasise, not as a competitor. Thanks for clearing that up. Just in case anyone was confused. And fell in love with Greece all over again. The second time was just incredible. And since then, what else have I knocked off? Santorini, love it. Crete, beautiful.

3:55Andros, amazing. And then this time, Cephalonia. Which was the one that you did when you did the Victoria Hislop? Oh, that was Crete. That was Crete. Yeah, because that was opposite the island that features in the island. which have been a leper colony which I found slightly alarming because you could see it from that hotel and I don't know, I found that all a bit disturbing all the tourists going off to spend the day there I don't know, it didn't seem quite right It doesn't feel completely conducive to a relaxing holiday No, but I'm sure I've talked about that before heaven forbid that I ever repeat myself Anyway, I hope Fee is having a happy holiday and I'm sure she will be but she'll be back very, very soon and Hannah will be here in place of you for the rest of the week the rest of this week So, Kefalonia, you went a couple of weeks ago.

4:40Yes. What's Kefalonia done to deserve both of us? I don't know. Poor, poor benighted Ireland. They must be overjoyed to have had us. It's beautiful, isn't it? It is so, so beautiful. It was also very green. Now, it certainly didn't rain when I was there last week, but does it rain a lot? How come it's so luxuriant and lush? We had the exact same conversation. Yeah, there are trees everywhere. And when I flew back into London's bouncing Heathrow Airport, I mean, your view of southern England as you come in to land, it's horrible, isn't it? It's so parched. It's horrible. What time did you get back on Friday?

5:21Saturday. Oh, Saturday. Did you still get the alert that we all got? I didn't get the alert, but I'd got a previous alert about wildfires on Zakynthos, which is the island you can see from the part of Cephalonia that I was in. We have a very good view of Sikinthos from the terrace of the hotel. And yes, there was a very alarming, that same noise went off all around the pool in Cephalonia because of wildfires in the adjoining island. It's quite a shocking sound. It is, it's a shocking sound. I mean, it has to be shocking. So, but I didn't, I heard a lot of talk about the British barbecue alert, which some people are mocking.

6:03Other people say it was exactly the right thing. I know it caused alarm with domestic abuse survivors because they might well have a spare phone which somebody else didn't know about. That's really concerning. Apparently a lot of trouble in prisons when phones that nobody knew existed all sounded the klaxon at the same time so that wouldn't have been great either for a string of reasons. Where were you when you got it? I was in London, sat with friends, and it very much created a conversation about how worrying it all is and how scary it is. And it did feel quite doomsday. Yes. I mean, I have to say, even the wildfire alert in Greece was shocking because it, as you say, it shattered the idyll just for a couple of minutes.

6:51Everyone gropes for their phone. and every single time I left the hotel room I thought I don't need my phone I'll leave it but you know I never did and what does that say about the human condition that we're also bloody addicted to these things yeah um but yeah clearly everybody else had their phone it brought it into kind of sharp focus that then we were like god this is actually really scary yeah it is I mean I think I needed to see the south of England from the air to witness the I mean devastation is too strong a word but everywhere just looks I don't think it is too strong No you're right It's not as if I didn't understand that this was a reality but it is troubling Having said that it's going to rain this week And I welcome that But I will also not be here Of course you'll be enjoying another holiday pool in Turkey I mean regular listeners might be questioning what is Eve's contract like and does she have more holiday than the average individual?

7:52It just feels like that. I know you don't, but it does feel like you have a lot. You've just got to make it work. Yeah, well, you certainly do. Anyway, we're back now and we welcome your emails and thank you very much for all the emails that have arrived over the last week or so. It is janeandfee at times.radio in case you needed reminding. You'll be delighted to hear that we do have the impeccably knowledgeable Laura Hackett with us today to talk about books and she's going to talk specifically about the big books coming our way yeah some autumn titles to look out for and some of her favorites that she's excited to read okay and we should say that Fee and I are appearing at the Cheltenham Literature Festival in October always a highlight of anybody's year and are we not allowed to no we've announced it oh we have okay so don't forget we're talking to our showbiz pal Annika Rice but I think that tickets are not actually available to purchase don't all rush at once until september the 2nd you can actually buy your tickets okay now i think i so i know i saw anna garrice who's on great form at the chelsea flower show um when the chelsea flower show started and that for me was significant because it was the evening that this crazy summer started it okay do you remember that day the crowd the The clouds parted at about half past five.

9:14I know you didn't come to the Chelsea Flower Show. No. I don't know why you didn't, because there were free drinks. It's the only reason I went. Because the flowers, frankly, are over my head. In more ways than one. But I like a Chelsea pensioner and I like a free drink. And anyway, it was an average kind of a day until about 5.30, 6 o 'clock. And then it just started being sunny and it hasn't really stopped since. What month is it? That would be late May, early June. Okay. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, it did just kind of get rolling from spring, didn't it? Anyway, Annika was there. She didn't mention her memoir, so maybe it was still on the...

9:50Under wraps. Under wraps, yeah. Okay, and Eve alerted me earlier to the fact that next week we've got Kate Atkinson on the programme and on the podcast. Yes. So that's been brilliant. I love her. And she has a new novel out, which sounds really interesting. It's about the Festival of Britain. I've just had a quick look at some of the details about it. And I can't wait for my copy. I think it should be in my sweaty mitts. Today. Today? Hopefully it'll be here by the afternoon. Okay, looking forward to that. We should just say one more note on Greece. Yeah, go on. Do you want to clear up the pitta pizza controversy?

10:19Well, I was devastated to hear that I communicated briefly with our executive producer, Rosie Cutler, last week. And I told her I was waiting to have a chicken pitta delivered to my... I mean, it's appalling, but, you know, when you can get lunch taken to you. It's just... I can't really forgive myself, except I can. No, of course you deserve. I have a lounge. Boy, did I have a lounge. Yeah, I was by the pool waiting for a chicken pitta, not a chicken pizza. Got slightly lost in translation. For God's sake. And Fee had a lot to say about your choice of a chicken pizza. And I would have judged anyone who had a chicken pizza in Caffelonia, on Caffelonia, but I didn't.

10:56And a chicken pitta richly deserved, as my colleague here indicates. Just a couple of observations. There are always people in hotels, and this is a lovely hotel, in a most beautiful location who still looked grumpy. And I just had one episode. I just want to share this with you. I was with my youngest daughter. I didn't have a peep out of her all week. I mean, she is 23. It was great because she just read A Woman of Substance. She finished it. And I said I thought she'd enjoy it. And she said she had a friend who'd given it to her. She took it with her. Honestly, she just, all she could talk about was the travails of Emma Hart.

11:33Have you read it? Oh, that's so nice. No, I haven't. Well, honestly, I do think maybe you could take it on your Turkish holiday. Honestly, it completely kept her quiet. So she and I were just by the pool reading the whole time. And so was almost everybody else. This is a hotel that did advertise itself as a restful place. And honestly, everybody just, they paid attention to that. There was no shouting. There was no splashing. It was adults only. Just some breaststroke going on. You're absolutely right. there was some of my unwieldy breaststroke and i was and i was very much no front crawl no no there was nothing you know there really wasn't um a bit of gentle splashing from the honeymooners we can allow them that that's absolutely fine and lovers yeah no that's fine absolutely fine but you're right there was a lot of slightly adequate breaststroke and no more in the infinity pool you've got to cool off somehow except this one occasion and it was the last morning and it You know in a hotel when you've checked out and you often have quite a wait before you need to get to the airport?

12:37We had about a three, three and a half hour wait when we couldn't use the room. But we had been allowed to use the showers or something. So we were able to sit by the pool and it was completely quiet. Everyone reading as usual. Just those, the bird song, would you like to do an impersonation? Yeah, they were at it as they always are in Greece and God love them. And that was lovely. And then there was one man. One man, British. There always is, isn't there? British, I am ashamed to say. He was wearing trunks. And he was conducting a business conversation. He had a baseball cap on backwards. He had his earpieces, what are they called?

13:18You're not connected. Your AirPods. The AirPods. He had his AirPods. Earbuds, as you call them. Earbuds, AirPods, whatever they were. And to make matters much worse, he was patrolling the swimming pool. Oh my gosh. So he was pacing around the pool. And occasionally he was sort of grabbing his crotch in a kind of business-like... I mean, why is there any need to do that? I mean, at one point I just wanted to shout out, I've got an ointment for that. But I think it's just that he wanted to illustrate that he was involved in a really important business conversation. Now, obviously, I was earwigging.

13:52I didn't actually have any option. And everyone else was earwigging too. And you do wonder about data protection in these circumstances, he wasn't to know the little woman over in the shade, because I always put myself in the shade. Was Britain's leading journalist? No. Does a podcast. But thank you, Eve. That was good timing, actually. That was brilliant. But, you know, I mean, it wasn't... Who else was around that pool? You don't know who anybody is or what they do or what their backstory is. And this guy was just... It was the strutting and the self-importance. I couldn't bear it, honestly.

14:28It's one thing to take an obnoxiously loud phone call, but I think it's another thing when it's a work call because then you're really bursting the peaceful holiday bubble. You're bringing your work to the pool and then everyone else has to live through it too. He totally burst that bubble. And it was an agreement that the rest of us had all signed up to. We'd gone there to be quiet. That was the point of the place. And I just thought, you're... Anyway, on about the 15th appearance by my side of the pool... He was getting his steps in. Yeah, he was. Bless him. I couldn't stand it anymore. And I had a couple of options.

15:04Did you intervene? Well, my daughter was horrified. And this is what annoys me about the younger generation, because she was angry about him as well, but she was embarrassed that I did something about it. That's a particular parent-child dynamic, I think. So all I did, Eve, and you will be horrified, just as my daughter was, was that I just sort of sat forward. And I just put my finger to my lips. in a really old bag. You shushed him. I shushed him. And to the man's credit, he said, in that classic British middle-class plonker kind of a way. I didn't speak. I didn't say a word. I just did that.

15:48So am I hideous? Did I? You see, you're exactly what, you're just like my daughter. That's just so unfair. I actually had an experience on the train this morning where a woman was filing her nails. Yeah, I don't mind that. And then I thought, gosh, that's a bit loud, but whatever. Because the sound of filing kind of weirdly makes me cringe a bit. Okay. So I clocked it. And then as I was getting off the carriage, the woman in front of her, she'd got covered in some of the... Oh, the shavings. The shavings from the nail filing. That's not ideal. And the woman who was filing her nails had said, I'm really, really sorry if that got on you.

16:25and this woman said well it's just a bit gross it's just not something that I would do and then this other girl was like yeah I'm so sorry I hadn't realized that it was flying on you there's just a lot coming off and I walked off the train thinking I kind of respect that woman for telling this other woman that she thought it was gross but was it necessary to tell oh gosh that's this is a really interesting psychological area and I thought I I would probably find it gross if someone's nail filings had been flying onto me, but I would not tell them that it was gross. But I would like to be able to.

17:01Gosh, well, we've hit on something here. So, yeah, you see somebody committing an act that you don't like and you understand, too, that it's impacting on other people, as with the Herbert by the pool. But when you do something about it, you know that other people will hate you for doing it. Yeah, I was like, oh, gosh, she's got B &Up on it this morning. Yeah, you see, there we are. aren't humans weird? Yeah. Let us know if you've had any similar experiences. What's the email address? It is janeandfee at times.radio. Let's talk athletics. This is from Louisa. Hello to all the lovely ladies. First time emailer to any podcast.

17:39Wow. Thank you. Welcome. Yeah, welcome. Long time listener. And although I felt that your podcast has mirrored and supported my life over the last couple of years, for some reason I only felt triggered to reach out to you having recently caught some of the European athletics on the telly this week. Have you seen it? I've seen it in the Times this morning. Right, OK, I was watching it when I got back on Saturday night and again last night as well. The women were lined up in the 100 metres heats and as the camera panned across the athletes, I couldn't help but notice how glamorous all the women looked.

18:13They had impeccable make-up and hair and it just seemed so out of place for what was surely an incredibly tough race ahead. Don't get me wrong, as an accountant of over 30 years, I wouldn't dream of turning up in the office without making some effort, foundation, lipstick, etc. Else I could have traumatised the rest of the department if they'd seen me without mascara. I'm sure that's not true, Louisa. When I mentioned this to my husband, he suggested that perhaps the women were marketing themselves for some sort of advertising or other contract publicity. Maybe, but there was something about this that made me feel uncomfortable.

18:51Thank you for listening to my rambling and random thoughts and for everything you do. Well, honestly, don't thank us, Louisa. We love doing it. Gosh, I'm conflicted by this as well because I did notice last night. I was watching the 100 metres mixed relay, which Britain won. And it is true, there were two brilliant female British athletes in our mixed relay team. Dina Asher-Smith, who is just fantastic, and Amy Hunt, who went on to win in that race her fourth gold medal of the championships. But Dina Asher-Smith has won medals over a decade, I think. And I was saying to you earlier that I interviewed her about, must have been about 10 years ago.

19:32And she's just the most brilliant young woman. She's absolutely fantastic. So I just wish her the very best. I'm sure she'll go on to have probably a stellar television career, Dina, because she's incredibly clever as well as everything else. So she'll be able to commentate on athletics and present on sport on telly. I really hope she does. I mean, she may have no interest in doing it, but if she does want to do it, I'm sure she'd be amazing. But I mean, my daughter was watching it with me last night and she said, they're all so beautiful. And the men, she meant the men as well. And actually that was also true.

20:03But of course the men aren't wearing, they're not wearing the makeup. They don't feel the need to wear it. What is that all about? Well, I suppose you can't blame them for maybe having a bit of vanity because their faces are going to be all over every national newspaper. They're on national television. I know. And if your face was going to be blasted like that, would you not want to feel like you look your best? Well, I'm slightly at the point where I'm past caring, Eve, if I'm honest. Oh, thanks. But I, no, I was a bit... Amy Hunt has actually said, yeah, I look, I want to look like this, being glam, it frankly helps me and I'd much rather look like this than not.

20:43Who's that at the door? Just going to let Laura Hackett in. Laura Hackett everybody, hang on a sec we'll let her in. She might have a view on this, well she's got a view on everything so I'm sure she'll have a view on it. I've also got some, hello Laura, come and sit down we're delighted to have you. Laura Hackett has a series of tremendous titles you do at this organisation just remind us what they are. Deputy literary editor and fiction editor of the times and sunday times yes well welcome and we're just very humbled to have you uh no we were just talking actually because a listener had prompted the conversation about how glamorous the athletes look at the european athletics championships have you seen them i have and extraordinary well they do look extraordinary but is it our listener uh louisa just wants to know if that's all right what do you mean is that well because she's she i mean they are sports women yes do they are they contractually obliged in some way to look incredible well i suppose it must be the changing nature of the sport because you want to be seen and you want to be noticed and there's an element of celebrity that goes alongside sportsmanship i guess we saw it a lot at wimbledon as well yes these incredible outfits because you want to be noticed you want to be talked about i think it's quite fun although i know what you mean if you were a sort of frumpy sportswoman, you might feel a bit out of place.

22:06Are there frumpy sportswomen? Well, when I did a bit of sport, I probably would have. Yes. No, frumpy isn't an adjective you hear that much these days, but it's good to be reacquainted with it. It's because I read too many old-fashioned books. Well, I want to talk to you about an old-fashioned book in a minute or two, actually. I'm with Louisa a little bit, our emailer. I am slightly perplexed by it. And I do hope it doesn't put young women off sport because they think, oh God, apart from being brilliant at sport, I'm also going to have to look incredible as well. And the men just don't have the same pressure.

22:45They just don't. Anyway, that's my feminist rant, loosely speaking feminist rant of the day over with. Thank you for being here, Laura. We'll do some emails because we've got some funny ones here. This is from Andrea in Maidstone. I laughed as I listened to Jane describe her friend's mother, the King Gardener, who often confused clematis with clitoris. And my mind drifted back to the 80s when my own mum admired our newly decorated sitting room and commented how much she liked our new dildo rail.

23:16Some people might actually have one of those.

23:23I don't know. I certainly don't. Do you? No. What's this? Sass. Speaking of super spotters, re-hilarious clitoris episode with Frank Gardner. By the way, Frank Gardner is one of the most eminent journalists and broadcasters in the UK. He'll hate to be associated with that edition of our podcast. But anyway, I would like to give a shout out to my fantastic friend, Victoria, who's currently poorly. She's at home recovering from an operation. Well, Victoria, I hope you're on the mend. I'm sorry to hear you've been through it a bit. While sheltering from 38 degree heat at Montenegro's Tivat Airport recently, she suddenly gasped, grabbed my arm and said, look, walking slowly across the road within touching distance of us, sauntered Katy Perry and ex-Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

24:13This is good, isn't it? Are you impressed, Laura? I'm impressed. They were so inconspicuous I would have completely missed them had she not pointed them out. And it wasn't Victoria's first rodeo. A couple of years ago, we were sitting in the meadow of the Kenwood Ladies Pond on a rare day that male guests were also allowed to swim. Now, Kenwood, is that part of Hampstead Heath? I don't know. Is it even? Kenwood House, isn't it? Is that a different house? It's part of it. I think it's part of it. It's within the Heath. Right, OK. Anyway, we were sitting in the meadow of the Kenwood Ladies Pond on a rare day that male guests were also allowed to swim.

24:46She nudged me and casually pointed out Harry styles, sitting there with friends, incognito, hidden under a hoodie, baseball cap and sunglasses. One of the older ladies took umbrage with this camouflaged male of the species and rather grumpily told him, time's up, you're allowed here until 11.30, it's now midday, so I'll have to ask you to leave, young man. Right. Too right. Quite right too. Please tell super spotter Victoria we all love her and we're wishing her a gentle and full recovery in good time. Victoria lots of love from all of us as well and I hope your recovery continues and Sass thank you very much for that so the lady who intercepted Harry Styles there she was basically doing a passive aggressive Garvey by the holiday pool wasn't she and that has brought out a little bit of my tingle when I hear about her intervention because although she was right to do it I know exactly what you were saying Eve earlier doesn't give you the I know rather you than me kind of feeling yeah exactly

25:49Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions, requires iPhone 11 or later. At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible.

26:32From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech so you can outthink, outpace and outperform. PwC, so you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like.

27:10And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average.

27:49See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. and now let's introduce laura hackett again we do sometimes tease you about your interest in and indeed fanatical over promotion of wow northern ireland but we've got an opportunity to do it again yes uh this is from julianne uh i was listening to your episode about how oslo is a pedestrianized city and the difference it's made that was last week yes because fee is heading to oslo on our holidays that's right yes she avoids the sun unlike me and it's going to oslo last week belfast hosted the flower yes the rest of it please okay don't don't test me on all the rest of it it's just the flower okay the flower and but it's spelled f-l-e-a-d-h yes yeah and it's pronounced flower okay last week julianne says belfast hosted the flower it's the largest international festival of traditional Irish music.

29:02And I think this is really interesting. It was the first time ever that Belfast has hosted this event. So that's significant, isn't it? It is pretty significant. I think when you look at it and you think, look at the country 30 years ago. Unthinkable. It would be completely unthinkable. Okay. So go Belfast. No, I think it's tremendous. It lasted between the 2nd and the 9th of August, August, August. Throughout that whole period, the whole of Belfast city centre was pedestrianised and the difference it made to the city was incredible. Initially 800 ,000 people were expected but by the end of the week 1.6 million people had come to Belfast to celebrate the best of Irish music.

29:43Why didn't people talk about this more? Have you seen and heard coverage about this? I have but it's I mean as you can imagine my algorithm is feeding me a great deal of Northern Irish content. I was seeing video after video and it looked incredible. Yeah, I think in a world that often appears to be so bleak, how fantastic is this? Seriously, as you say, not that long ago, this just couldn't have happened. I think nearly, well, over one and a half million people going to Belfast to celebrate the best of Irish music is remarkable. She goes on to say it included a large contingent of Ulster bands who are usually seen parading on the 12th of July, which is obviously the Battle of the Boyne and the Orange Lodge and Protestant events.

30:29So we're now all asking why we don't pedestrianise the city. Just search for the flower on the socials and you'll see what a difference it made for a week and how proud everybody is of Belfast. It was such a joy after the race riots which took place earlier in the year. Julianne, thank you for that. I think that's amazing. And congratulations to Belfast on staging that remarkable event. On another note, and you'll like this, my son got his A-level results yesterday and having had Covid during them he still managed to get three A's well congratulations how fantastic but didn't get into his university first choice because he was one mark short of an A star oh god it's very difficult to see him so disappointed having got such incredible results I know it's going to work out in the end and this time next year he'll wonder what it was all about but it's not easy to watch them going through it Julianne, I know what you're saying.

31:19It isn't, is it? It's really grim. But how brilliantly he's done, especially having had COVID during the exams. And it's such a shame that sometimes, but you're right, of course, he'll go somewhere, he'll have an amazing time. And it's what fate had in store. I'm a bit of a believer in fate. Sometimes I think what happens is meant to happen. I agree I think it was very hard I remember the year when I got my A-level results and one of my friends had missed out by literally a couple of marks on her university place and of course when it came she got it remarked because you can do and of course it came back then she had made the grade but it was too late the place was gone I think that's one of the cruelest things about it I didn't know that happened yes it can it's just gone even if you get it remarked and go up oh I see I didn't know that they'll have given it to someone else people must tell us about this if that's happened to anybody in their family over the last couple of years.

32:11I thought if you were going for a remark, they might kind of hold the place. No, they don't, because it's all so fast. And the whole clearing business happens so quickly. I think that's one of the sort of scariest things about it is it feels like in a blink of an eye it's all sorted and that's where you're going. Right. But I think she really loved where she ended up in the end. There we are. So there we go. That's what I wanted to hear. Yeah. Where did you go? I went to Oxford. Yes, of course. Okay, well, we'll move on. I wasn't going to bring that up you put me in a spot there no Laura you're brilliant of course you went to Oxford right let's completely change the subject hasn't it been changeable with the weather it certainly has yes and hopefully it's going to rain this god I hope it rains this week I'll probably be grumpy after two days of grey skies and rain but I really do hope it rains so Laura this is the time of year when things really start to happen in the literary world It's weird, isn't it?

33:06Because although it's not the books don't come out in the summer, what is the significance of September in terms of books and the book world and the publishing world generally? September and early October are huge times for the books world because basically that is the time to publish a book if you think it's got a chance of getting into the sort of Christmas bestseller range. so you want people to from September October be thinking oh I've seen that book everywhere and then once they start to think about their Christmas shopping they think oh I'll get a copy of that so it really is the the peak time to publish a book which is why it's quite an exciting time for us in the book's desk because after a few fallow months might be harsh but it's certainly quieter yes a little cruel than those people who have brought out books yes couple of months yeah but you know in sort of mid-August there really aren't very many books that come out at all and then come September there's this great glut yeah it's harvest time but the brutal truth is and this sounds very judgmental and a bit snooty but at Christmas people who don't buy books buy books don't they yeah that's the crucial thing because there only are so many people in the country who are going to sort of every week or every month be going out and buying new books for themselves.

34:28That isn't everyone. But lots and lots of people will go out and buy books as presents for Christmas. So that is the time when you can really make money and break out beyond what is a kind of normal sales amount for a book to something really extraordinary. Right. I was reading over the weekend, I can't remember where it might have been, in a Times article, about super readers who are the people who I think the statistic was they, there are 20 % of the population read 80 % of the books sold or something with that does that make sense yeah I think that that wouldn't surprise me at all because I mean I know people that I would talk to them and say well you know I read a book on my summer holiday and then I'll buy a book or two over Christmas as a present and that's their engagement with the books world which is obviously that's quite entirely normal yeah but then you also meet people who I mean you see people who read hundreds and hundreds of books a year and I don't know how they have time for it.

35:23I mean, I've got to do it for a job and I don't read half as many as these people. So there really are people who are kind of propping up the industry. We should probably give them some sort of medal for it. No, I think they probably do deserve a medal. And also, of course, shout out to independent bookshops as well, which so many people feel so passionately about. Without them, and there's one in the Crosby, the suburb of Liverpool that I grew up in, Pritchard. So I'm going to mention it because it's just fantastic that it's still going. It's in a high street that, frankly, to be brutal about it, doesn't have a fat lot going for it.

35:56And they have stuck it out. And whenever I go, I try and buy at least one book because it's just got to be there. Those places have got to carry on existing. I think it's so good when you can go into a bookshop and you just know that you can talk to a real person and they'll have so much knowledge and they'll be able to say, okay, well, you like this book and that book, and you like these kind of themes, this book will be perfect for you. And you just can't get that from Amazon or from ordering a book online. I think it's so, so valuable. Okay, well, we'll talk about some of the big names. I was asking you about the Casillette Chronicles before I went on holiday because a relative of Elizabeth Jane Howard, who wrote the Chronicles, has written a sequel.

36:39That's correct, isn't it? That was actually what made me think about the original book. So she is called Louisa Young. and she's written a kind of follow-up to the fifth book in the series. Yes, and there's going to in total be a trilogy of follow-up books that she writes. The first one is called The Golden R's and it comes out at the end of August. And I actually travelled to Suffolk a few weeks ago to interview Louisa Young at Elizabeth Jane Howard's final home, Bridge House, and to talk to her about it. So it's quite an exciting thing, but I imagine also quite a big responsibility because so many people really love those books.

37:18Well, I said to you, would I like the Castlet Chronicles? Okay, here we go. Drum roll. Well, okay. I mean, suffice to say, thank you. I, to my shame, and I do feel terrible, I interviewed Elizabeth Jane Howard just before she died, actually quite relatively shortly before she died. And I hadn't read the Castlet Chronicles. I have now read only the first one. But honestly, it's like falling in love. It's incredible. I have now ordered all four of the remaining first five and but I think I'm going to have to eke them out I think I don't want to get through them all too quickly why do they still work I mean in a way I can't quite understand why they mean so much to me or why that book meant so much to me I didn't grow up in an upper middle class home in this on the south coast I have absolutely no snooty connections whatsoever but by god I love these people and I care about them what's happening to me or is she just a genius I think she really was a genius and I think what's what's funny about these books is that on the surface they kind of do just look like it's a story about this upper middle class family living through the war and even if you were to go and unpick a particular sentence of it there's nothing particularly showy or flashy she doesn't go for great images or metaphors she gets humans but she gets humans that's the thing the characters you really believe that they exist and that they when you close the book that they're off living their lives somewhere and I think that's such a skill and so few authors I think have been able to capture characters in the way that she was able to in those books and part of it is because she did use a lot of her own experiences in crafting those characters so little little details because I was reading her memoirs as part of preparing for the interview there's a particular character whose father um always eats the skin off her hot chocolate and that's such an image of the relationship that the father and daughter have and I remember reading it and thinking that's just such a kind of gross but lovely image of what this father would do and I would never do that by the way so if either of my children are listening I'd just skim it off and throw it away what's the need to eat it but that is something that she really that she experienced herself having the skin eaten off the chocolate hot chocolate for her so just little details like that I think really bring it to life And she does write about the Toffs, but she also writes about their staff.

39:38Yes. And the governess in the first book. Yes, it makes your heart squeak. Yeah. So much detail about her loneliness and her isolation and her commitment to the children. Trying to repair her cardigan a third time because she can't afford to buy another one. And she doesn't have, she's only got a bare bulb in her little poxy little room. Poor Miss Millamint. Poor Miss Millamint. I was groping for the name Miss Milliman. Yeah, oh God. So anyway, if you're looking for a properly indulgent, gorgeous read that will really take up time, if you haven't read the Castler Chronicles, do what I do. Learn from my mistakes and start reading them now because then you'll be able to enjoy the other books as well.

40:23Exactly, yes. Yeah, it hasn't been on telly for a while, has it? It has been on telly. It has, yeah, but years and years ago. Yeah, it might be due for a bit of a Netflix revival. It may be. A few quid thrown in that direction. I reckon they'd be amazing. Yeah, let's have a think about that. Right, what else do you want to talk about? Well, I think we should talk about some of the big books that are coming out this autumn that people might want to sort of jot down in their diaries and go out and get them. One of them is The Housekeeper by Rose Tremian. That's coming out September 17th. And it is basically a rewriting of Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier.

41:00So if you've read and loved that book, which I know so many people have, this is quite interesting. And it's obviously, again, it's quite a big responsibility to take it on. But Rose Tremayne, I think she's been writing novels for 50 years now. She's got the experience and she's got the ability. So it's basically the story of you'll remember the character of Mrs Danvers, who's this sort of evil housekeeper. And this is the story of Mrs Danowski, who is a housekeeper. and she is an immigrant to the UK and she's working very quickly as a housekeeper. Is it contemporary? No, no, no. It's set sort of post-World War II.

41:39Okay, right. And she's working quite contentedly as a housekeeper when there is a visitor to the house one day and it's a very impressive and attractive female writer who's called, of course, Daphne du Maurier. And from here, Rose Tremaine imagines this love affair between the two women, which of course turns Sarr and then results in the creation of this character of Mrs Danvers. So it's very immersive. It's very sexy, the whole thing. And I really enjoyed it. And I think if you're someone that really liked Rebecca, this is quite a fun book. But yeah, but does it need, why, I mean, Rose Tremaine is amazing.

42:19Her book, The Road Home, was, that was her award-winning most recent book. Is that correct? she's written so much i don't think it's the most recent but that was certainly that did she wrote um restoration yes yeah yeah that might be her most loved i think okay i mean she's hugely successful and i just wonder why why would she would choose to rewrite this does it did it need rewriting well i suppose it's not necessarily a rewriting but being inspired or reimagining the the circumstances that created that original novel and i think there are some books that you read and you do feel very inspired by them and leave them sort of feeling this character deserves more of an exploration, deserves to be seen in a different light.

43:02And I suppose that's what she's done with the character of Mrs. Danvers. So I think I see where you're coming from. I think they can be quite hard to get right. But I think if you're a very good writer, you can probably manage it. Okay, well, that's Rose Tremaine. And that book is called? The Housekeeper. I think a lot of people are going to be very, very into that. Right, what else have you got? Well, this is my, I'm going to say it, my book of the year so far. It's only August, but I think it's my favourite book of this year and of last year as well. I've absolutely loved it. It's called Partita by Barbara Kingsolver.

43:37Now, I know lots of people read and loved Demon Copperhead, which was another reimagining David Copperfield. Yes, and Barbara was on the podcast. Well, there we go. Friend of the show. Friend of the show. Well, I might be stretching it, but yes. This book is about a woman called Livia. She grows up in rural poverty in a very difficult family situation. She loses her brother when she's quite young and she's got a difficult relationship with her mother. They're a farming family, but they're really struggling to make a living. But she has this escape route, which is that she's an incredibly gifted pianist and she wins a scholarship to go off to college and study music.

44:19and it looks like this is going to be her great escape and her new life. But of course, it doesn't quite turn out that way. Where is it set? It's set in the States, first of all, in sort of Southern America where she is from. And then she goes off to university in a very different place, also in America, but a whole different... She's never met these sorts of people before and been in this environment before. So it's a really difficult thing for her to get used to. but she encounters this man called Sigurd who's very handsome and charming too handsome and charming we might say and everything goes badly wrong and I won't say anything more but it's just such an incredible novel there's so much drama in it so much incident the character really draws you in and it's the sort of thing where I was reading it and I was getting so frustrated with the this male character cigarette that I sort of had a falling out with my husband because I was so angry at this man that I applied it to old man and you know but shout out to Mr Hackett yeah he made it through he made it through he's fine he's fine um it wasn't a falling out but I sort of was feeling a bit angry with men that's how that's what the book made me feel but it if you enjoyed Demon Copperhead I think you'll really love this one as well and then another big name I'll just mention is Bonnie Garmus, Lessons in Chemistry.

45:44That came out a few years ago and was, of course, a global phenomenon. People loved that story of Elizabeth Zott, became an Apple TV show, which was very successful. Peck and Peck at first seems very different. It's about a young man who wants to become a poetry editor at a magazine in New York in the 80s. But actually, there are lots of similarities. There's this sort of very impressive mother figure who has all of these hidden depths. And there is also a dog. You might remember the dog in Lessons in Chemistry. Here we've got another dog who is a hero. So if you like impressive mothers and even more impressive dogs, Peck and Peck is the one for you.

46:26Why is it called Peck and Peck? That's the name of the poetry magazine that he goes to work at. And it's run by two brothers who both have the surname Peck. Oh, I thought, so it's nothing to do with the South London area. Not Peckham, Peck and Peck. Oh, I see, sorry. God. Well, that could be the sequel. It's my first day back at work for a while. A spin-off. Perhaps it should be. Right, and we should also say, because Kate Atkinson is joining us next week, her new novel is also out, and she's a woman who just, I mean, she just pleases so many. I mean, I love her books. I have to pay more attention than I'm normally capable of paying, but she is so worth the investment because I just think she's a genius.

47:08I haven't read the new one yet but Robbie has read it and absolutely loved it and it's set in 1950s Britain in the lead up to that great festival of Britain in 1951 and I think it's definitely one to look out for. Brilliant. Laura, thank you very much. Thank you. Laura Hackett there. And that was the end. That was the conclusion of this edition of Off Air with Jane and Fee Without Fee who's back in a week or so's time. Was she in Norway for the whole two weeks? No, she's not going to be in Norway for the whole two weeks. I think she's also going to Suffolk and some other things. But she's actually off for two weeks and a day because there's the August bank holiday.

47:46Oh, that's true. She's a canny of pressure as well, isn't she? Well, let's wave a fond farewell to Eve, who is going off on a richly deserved ninth holiday of 2026. Thank you. We'll see her soon. Thanks for all the emails. We'll have many more of them tomorrow. It's jayandfee at times.radio. And Laura Hackett is available. Well, your many works are available on thetimes.com, aren't they? They are. Yeah. Thank you.

48:28Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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