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0:34It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends.

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2:12Hello. Hello. Hello. Eve has just, I think this is the first time in four and a half years that Eve has given us a very specific production directives. And what are we doing? we've got to pause for some corporate measures at 12 minutes past 12. Yes, 12 minutes past 12. Well, it gives us a bit of time, doesn't it? Thank you, Eve. It's been a long time coming, but we do welcome your firm instruction. Yeah, I liked it, actually. More of that, please. More of that, please? Do you really mean that? Just more of that, please. Do you know what? Some people are very across secrets, aren't they? I just never remember what's meant to be a secret or not.

2:53It makes lying very, very, very, very unwise. You just can't remember who it is you've ever said anything to. I mean, generally speaking, lying isn't the right route, but let's just be honest, we all do it. But some people are very good at it. Some people can spin that in their head, can't they? They can just remember what it was that they pretended they'd done or not done or been it or whatever. I just can't remember anything, Jane. Would you call it lying? We had a conversation on the live radio show yesterday with a Republican representative from the United States. He wasn't so much lying, he's just sticking very firmly to his truth, to his version of the truth.

3:28And it's really unsettling. He wasn't rude, he wasn't unpleasant. In fact, that was one of the things that made the whole interaction even more disturbing. And you do wonder, what are these people going to feel about the way they've conducted themselves in a decade's time? I'm sure I've said versions of this before, but I don't understand where these people are going to go when it's all been put through the ringer and we as a globe come to terms with Trump and the legacy of, as you were saying in that conversation, the amount of money his family has made and he's made and the world's just going, honestly, it is going to hell in a handcart.

4:06I think what's becoming increasingly obvious with Trump is welcome back, Jane. Well, no, I mean, sometimes... No, we've got to face it. We've got to face it head on. I think what's becoming patently clear in his refusal to condemn the actions of Putin is the direction of travel for the Trump administration. Because I think here, we so clearly see what happens with the invasion of Ukraine. We so clearly empathize with the Ukrainian people. I think, you know, we feel that threat very close to us, don't we? And so we haven't wanted to believe that you could possibly have somebody in a massive, massive position of power.

4:47Yeah, that's fine. Absolutely fine. But it is becoming clear that Donald Trump sees something in the strong man of Vlad that he respects. The guy yesterday who you interviewed, and you did a brilliant job taking him down over his hypocrisy with Ukraine, China and Russia. And he couldn't link up the three things successfully at all. And actually it was Iran, wasn't it? He couldn't seem to work out a very simple question about did involvement in a war against Iran, what is the parallel that you see with not wanting to defend Ukraine? He couldn't join those dots at all. But then he also couldn't join the dots of the fact that life is not better for the average American, having invested in these foreign wars that he promised that he wasn't going to.

5:41He kept on saying, no, everything's absolutely fine and people's shopping baskets aren't more expensive and there isn't a diesel crisis. And it's just like, no, but there is, mate. I mean, there just is. The proof will be in the pudding when the midterm elections happen in a week or so's time. But already, apparently, I read in The Times that Donald Trump is preparing to say, oh, well, they've all been rigged. So what do you expect? And on and on we go. It's like being on a mad, mad, out-of-control merry-go-round. It's like being on the teacups. You're just... It is. Just swirling around and you can't see an end in sight and the madness just keeps on coming our way.

6:22Anyway, really weird. It's also like the child who comes to your kid's party, isn't it, and actually eats all the jelly on the table and then denies it and nicks all the presents and then denies it and you catch them giving somebody a Chinese burn and they deny it. and you say to yourself, I don't want to meet that as a grown-up. Have we met him? We're not only met him. He's endlessly in our charge of the world. God! Right. Thank you. We had some lovely emails. And thank you to everybody who's expressed sympathy to me and to my sister and the rest of the family about my dad dying. It's obviously...

6:57We had a very thoughtful email from somebody who says, actually, it doesn't matter what age your parents are. It's still just a properly discombobulating experience. and there's just no denying that is there it just is it changes you jane yeah it does because without question you lose a part of your identity as somebody's child and in your case you have lost that identity twice over the course of a year and and it should change you as well yes that's a good point it should it should bring you up a little bit and make you reconsider consider who you are, where you are in your life, how you conduct yourself, how you've been.

7:35And look, I wasn't always the, you'd be amazed to hear, I wasn't always the perfect daughter. In fact, my dad and I in particular had some humdingers over the years. He wasn't a man who embraced feminism. I'm not sure if you asked him, he actually knew what it was. So he did definitely, I remember him saying to me, after I started Old Woman's Hour, he said, God, that's the most depressing programme I've ever heard. My mum was listening out of loyalty because she was a much more, if I'm honest, she was a much more committed follower of both my sister and I, what we did in our lives. As a lot of mothers are, they just cannot, I mean, and it's a wonderful thing, they cannot stop being fully invested in what their children are up to.

8:19And I'd like to think I'm the same. But my dad was, shall we say, not quite as involved, not quite as involved. He just didn't get he just didn't get what I was on about um you know the third wave of feminism had completely passed him by and so with all the other waves

8:37it was in the shallows it went a bit stagnant in the pond there right he was very much in the shallows but um that's not to say that he was actually he was a classically do you know what he was he was reliable and that's a very underrated quality I think people are a bit scornful of people who are reliable but he was if he said he was going to pick you up from somewhere he bloody well did well isn't that what you want in a parent yeah it is you don't want to ever question your parents reliability so you don't want your dad to be interesting is the truth or either of your parents really you don't want them to be showmen or crazy mavericks you just want them to turn up in their anorak at the time they said they'd be there to take you take you home and so that's you know those sorts of qualities are hugely underestimated and you're very fortunate as i have been if you have them in your life i think yeah so let's hear it for all those old school dads who did the do yes my dad never showed up didn't he okay well there we are so no so i'm actually going to put some some tuppany's worth into that conversation uh because and and i i honestly i'm so i'm i'm not questioning that for you at all no absolutely not i actually really really really agree with it.

9:53My dad was a completely different kettle of fish. So people at his funeral and his Thanksgiving service, we hadn't really known a lot of his friends very closely because he lived abroad. So in a way, he'd had a completely different life to a life as my dad. You know, he had just not been with us all that much. Which is not to say that I didn't love him just as much as if he'd been there every night. And it's not to say that I didn't wish, actually, quite often, that he had been there every night. But it was really, really interesting, Jane, because people came over and said things about Dad that were just eye-popping.

10:31And he was not really the most reliable of chaps. And he was charismatic. And I remember a really lovely old friend of his, a woman who he'd known through her husband for a very long time. She said, if your dad turned up at a party or an event, you just knew you were going to have a better time. And she said, you know, he just lit up, he just did, you know, he could tell jokes and anecdotes and stories and all that kind of stuff. He was not in the slightest bit reliable. And I think for all of those people who are listening, who've had one of those parents, actually, there's a lot to be said for that too.

11:07You have to find your reliability somewhere else. I think a lot of kids of that kind of parent hunker down very very soon in life I definitely bought a flat you know when my friends weren't buying flats and I couldn't really afford to buy a flat I needed to shove my own foundation to even the earth but but I think there are I think parenthood doesn't always change people and you come to realize the older you get that that just happens it just happens and it doesn't mean that you love them any the less I think there comes a time and I'm sure I'm at it now when you can no longer you cannot honestly blame your parents for anything anymore oh totally I really agree with you and you know sometimes when you do I find it very sad actually when people of our age and our generation as in you know people who've had kids or you know you're the generation above young adults now and they're having little tiny ones of their own when they are still caught in the trap of what happened to them as you know i don't want to say the hands of their parents because obviously sometimes that's absolutely awful but i'm i'm with you i think you do just sometimes have to go well this is my life now yes i've dug this hole and i take on board what happens but actually am i going to live that no life let it go let it go and that's not to say of course um i'm sounding like i'm backtracking Some people have wretched childhoods and terrible parents.

12:37Yes, and that's different. Yes, so we're not for a moment saying, if you've had an abusive childhood, brush it off. No, but it's more the kind of, I can't help myself because my parents did, you know, X, Y and Z. And sometimes actually they can feel a little bit, in a world of savagery, like microaggressions too. Yes, yes, they can. And yeah, I'm with you, I'm with you. But can I ask you, and you absolutely just have to say if any of these questions this week are a bit too much, but because you've lost both your parents now, did you, when you lost your mum, feel your identity change? Or was there a sense that actually because your dad was still there, you could kind of almost put that back on the shelf?

13:20You knew that you were going to have to deal with something else. Did you feel you lost your sense of I'm somebody's child when your mum died? I don't know. That's really difficult. I mean, there's no doubt that most mother-daughter relationships, most mother-child relationships are not without complexity but if you're fortunate and I certainly was with with my mum they are that there's a there's an exchange of information and experiences that most people of my generation didn't have with their dad not because we didn't our dads didn't love us or we didn't love them but because they were my dad was very much in the mold of he answered the phone and then he said I'll get your mum he did he did talk but he always knew that was something he'd find out later from mum what was actually going on and so when mum died I still you know I keep wanting to ring her and I'm sure that's that must be something that that I mean you know various things have happened with the children since and all the rest of it you think oh yeah gosh I haven't told and then you think yeah I can't can't and that's that I don't think that ever ceases to be anything other than miserable I'll probably still be thinking about it in 25 years time it's just that's the way it is I'm sure with dad it was very different and we My sister and I had to establish a whole new way of, I'm sure I've mentioned this, visiting dad on his own was really extraordinary.

14:37It was so strange because they'd lived together for 63 years. And how on earth did my poor dad go about establishing a routine without my mum in it? He just couldn't. And do you think that actually it has been a blessing that he didn't have to spend a lot of time without her? Of course I do. I think he was really, of course he was, he was really struggling. And do you think that she's had enough of a break before Ray joins her? Well, that's what my sister and I have talked about this. And also my Lex, my late ex-father-in-law as well, who I was very fond of, he died a couple of years ago, a very funny man.

15:18And I honestly do think of the three of them. They were good friends, in spite of the fact that I got divorced. My parents always got on well with my former in-laws. and I do picture, I know it's laughable, I do picture the three of them just having a bevy. I know it's stupid, isn't it? I do the same with Dan and quite often actually, after he'd died and if we heard that somebody else had died too, then we would say, my sister and I, he's gone to join the great four ball in heaven. Yeah, exactly. He enjoyed that golf very much. And Dan was always looking for somebody to make up a four ball. I still don't really know what that means, Jane.

15:59I don't know what a four... I think, is it four people playing golf? Yeah, I think it probably is. No, my dad will be up there playing bowls. I mean, God, he used to talk about bowls. I mean, it's such a lot for you. And honestly, unless you play bowls, it's not really that interesting. No. So actually what you needed was somebody to sit you down as a mediator and say, OK, Jane, you've got to listen to half an hour about bowls and, Ray, you've got to listen to half an hour about feminism. Well, that would have, chance would have been a fine thing. Yeah. I'll tell you that. Yeah. No, but it would have been an interesting hour, wouldn't it?

16:31I don't think women's covered bowls that much. I don't think it does. I think it's the spin-off podcast that everybody wanted. We should have done it, shouldn't we? Anyway, it is a strange time. There's no doubt about it. And I think a lot of people will absolutely understand why it is strange. It will get better. It will get easier. And you'll start to remember all the funny things. And there were lots of funny things. I mean, my dad was noted for his mind-boggling lack of curiosity. You know, you could quite literally turn up. I doubt your dad was like this from the sound of things. You could turn up with a limb hanging off and dad probably wouldn't reference it.

17:04You could have had a radical haircut. You could have lost four stone or gained four stone. He wouldn't have said anything about it. I always remember and cherish forever the day after I visited my parents, the day after Diana's funeral, I visited my parents. I went on the train to Liverpool. and bear in mind i mean it's crazy now to think about those times but they were heady days weren't they and the funeral itself was just phenomenal this global event can i just say that many people were giddy light lottery winners let's park that there yes indeed uh and i had been working for the bbc on the mall one of those commentary boxes watching the funeral procession and because of the timing i think i said four sentences and then it was the cortege had moved on and it was devastating It was so sad.

17:49Poignant. Yes, we went over the top, but it was still bloody sad if you were there. Take my word for it. I went to Liverpool the next day. Dad picked me up at Lime Street. He was a great picker-upper from railway stations in those days. And we, he said, you know, took my bag, got in the car. And I thought, I'm just going to test him. Let's just see how long we can go. Driving up the dock road back to Crosby and the Northern Burbs. before he asked me a question about yesterday. Not a thing. Not a thing. We got about 500 yards, I'm still imperial, from the family home and he asked me how the journey had been.

18:31Absolutely nothing about what had happened the day before. Now, do you think... I just don't get that. I never will. That that's because... Because he had an interesting life, didn't he? he didn't work for quite a long time in his life. What are you saying? I don't know how to put this, because I don't want to feel rude about him at all. I mean, he just sounds like a lovely guy. But do you think, because he wasn't in a working environment for a long period of time, actually, you do stop... He'd been conditioned out of it. Yes. I don't know, I think just... I don't understand why you wouldn't want to vaguely know about something that had happened the day before that your child had been at.

19:09It was quite... Yeah, I'm just looking for ways to kind of... No, I mean, he was retired for quite some years. In fact, I would imagine his former employer will have been one of the few people delighted to hear of his demise because they've been paying for 50 years. Since 1982. Right. That's just unbelievable. I know. So, yeah. And look, he was a great bogey in lots of ways because his real quality was in taking pleasure in small things and I've inherited that and it's a good thing. You know, it's not a bad thing at all if you can be made content quite easily. In fact, it's a gift. Oh, I think it's wonderful.

19:48Personally, I think it's the secret to a happy life. I think it almost is, actually. Yeah. And I would say that he did have a really good life up until the last year, which was wretched for him in almost every way. But until then, it had been pretty good.

20:08Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app now with heart rate variability could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions, requires iPhone 11 or later. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough.

20:41It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S.

21:21offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash ACAST. That's growtherapy.com slash ACAST. growtherapy.com slash ACAST. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. if you like me have someone in your life or had someone in your life who just wasn't in any way curious do let us know it's not to say he wasn't curious about other things he always read the sports section every single day you're but you're not alone in and in fact annika rice had the same she did didn't she she was talking about her mom and her mom despite bringing her up yeah to be immensely independent and really full of beans about life and she'd said you know you've got to get your own front door you've got to be this and you've got to be that when annika did remarkable things and became a household name and fulfilled all of her mother's expectations her mother just never talked to her about it would not talk about her career at all ever or ever ask her a question it felt very deliberate yeah um and i don't think it's quite the same as my dad who just As I say, he wouldn't have said anything if I'd got off the train from London with multiple piercings and a Mohican.

22:55So it wasn't him putting you down or gaslighting your success or anything like that. He just genuinely wasn't that interested. He couldn't be bothered to know what's for D. Exactly. I think the football season had probably just started. He was back immersed in that. So anyway, people are different. People are strange. And we're all different. And hey, we're all strange. Yeah, we certainly are. No, we really are. We certainly are. I just wanted to read one because we have had lots and lots of emails welcoming you back. So I'm just going to pick this one from Naomi from Lewis. But that's not to say that all of the other ones aren't grateful.

23:31No, honestly, I'm so grateful to people just for taking the time. Because it's, you know, you're busy and it's very touching. So this comes in from Naomi. He says, On the train home after a long day at work and so very happy to hear Jane's wonderful tones and the two of you back together with Verve. My thoughts as I listened to the beginning. imagine if you had not gone to be with your dad soldiered on so to speak with your duty to your listeners not to your dad what would we have all learned from that whereas with you being brave and honest and showing love and care to your dad and sincerely talking about it on the radio afterwards now think about what you and we have all learned surely much more for the listener and totally on track with the essence of your podcast of being honest open and true journalistic explorers of life so that's interesting isn't it because you are curious about about life i try to be at least at least for money my mom was very curious that's where i get it from the beginning to the end my heartfelt thanks for sharing and making the topic of death and dying accessible and not something to hide as all that does is bring pain welcome back jane and take care we are all human thank goodness and i thought that just summed everything up yeah well thank you naomi it's lovely yeah and it is absolutely a place for talking about all of the different parts of life and as we said so many times before personally uh we feel that the worst thing that you can do when somebody dies is to just pretend they haven't yeah and pop them in a box and move the conversation on because it's one of the biggest things is the universality of our world so odd if we don't try and share it a bit more it's properly bonkers it is if you just don't talk about it we are all going to die and we don't talk about death or dying all that much and if you are fortunate enough and I don't want to repeat what we said yesterday but if you are fortunate enough to be able to spend those days hours or weeks with somebody who is who is dying um it's not it's not as scary as you might think and although it can be challenging if you can do it and if you feel that you're helping the situation because obviously I mean I need to make very clear I I'm going to be absolutely honest about this.

25:41I wasn't caring for my dad. I was with him in a care home. Completely different thing. Very, very different thing. If you're caring for a loved one at home, then I am in awe of you. If you're able to do that, because you have the skills and you're brave enough to do it. Wow, that's incredible. But I'd also just say quickly that people who are wary of care homes or worried about what they might be like, or, you know, in some way, they have an image that can be a very depressing one. There was a lot of laughter in the care home that my dad was in. He wasn't really well enough to appreciate that side of things, I should say.

26:16But the staff had a great cracking sense of humour, Fee, because where was the care home? It was in Liverpool. But they did. That's the thing. It's a terrible cliché. I think humour might be available in other care homes, in other parts of the country. I'm not sure it would be quite... So anyway, there were residents there who were clearly having a good time and they were having a much better time in that community than they would have been having at home on their tod, I would say. So, yes, they're not always really depressing, terrible places, far from it. Anyway, that's enough. That's enough from me.

26:51Well, we welcome all of your experiences and thoughts. So, Jane and Fee at Times.Radio is the email address. Now, we were asking yesterday if any of our listeners in France would like to tell us a little bit about life over there at the moment. And this comes in from Izzy, who is doing exactly that. Izzy says, I'm a teacher at a university in Paris. I'm writing in a personal capacity about my experiences of teaching here during the strikes. We've been very affected over the last few weeks where I work. It's quite concerning watching the students leave to attend demonstrations. They do come into university in the mornings before.

27:28Isn't that great? That's good. I'm going to carry on my learning and then protest about it. and hoping that these will remain peaceful and they will return safely. I teach English language and culture at a small centre attached to Paris-Nantaire University, the famous one from the 68 protests, where the students are training to become librarians, booksellers, and all manner of professions within the book industry. They organised days of popular education at the centre during the strike, which included sessions on how to stay safe during protests, as well as on the struggling book industry. and I tell you what would be great to know you do go on to say at the end Izzy in terms of the wider situation in Paris I'm sure you'll have lots of other correspondence but I think I'm not alone in being shocked sanded and very concerned absolutely appreciate you are writing in a personal capacity not representing the university but all of that I think this is what we were saying yesterday isn't it mustn't be forgotten in what have turned into incredibly violent and I think people on both sides admit agitated protests.

28:37You know, they've been exacerbated, haven't they, by lots of people coming in from other parts of Paris and with other aims apart from the students' protests. But that says it all, doesn't it? The students that Izzy knows are going to lessons in the morning because they still want to carry on learning and then they're going out to what they hope will be peaceful protests later. And they've been completely and utterly overtaken by the violence. And it's hard to see what happens now, Jane. It is. Well, it's not looking great. I think Paris Saint-Germain play tonight in Paris. They're always accompanied by trouble.

29:11It doesn't matter if they win or if they lose. There seems to be trouble afterwards. And then there's something planned for the weekend. And look, we're not in any way suggesting that this couldn't happen here. It doesn't look as though there's anything about to unfold. I know it's not just France either. Stuff's gone on in Spain, Portugal, Albania. So we're, at the moment, Britain seems relatively calm. It's not as if we don't have our own concerns. Izzy says, could you say hello to the students at the Pôle des Métiers de Livre? Beautiful, c 'est belle. I do have an A level in French, quite D.

29:48So, yes, I don't know how I got a D. It should really have been, what was it? They used to get a U for underappreciated or something, or unenthusiastic. Did you get a youth just not turning up? I think you probably did, yeah. Unclassified, I'll stand for it. Yeah, stand for it. Anyway, I hope you're all right, Izzy. And Anne is near Perpignan. She says, I now live in France. I've done it for 28 years. She is, she should say, originally from Otley. Lived in France for 28 years. School strikes have always been part of the landscape here. I remember our son losing a lot of lesson time just before important exams.

30:26but now the problem is les casseurs, hooligans who jump on board peaceful protests with the intention of rioting and vandalism. We live in a small village so we've kept away from the protests but this is the worst we've ever seen. And thank you for that and it does sound as though you're relatively safe and I should say, of course, France is a huge country geographically so most people will not see any of this. But lots of cities are affected. Of course, the other person who would be delighted by all this is President Putin. Isn't it strange that there don't seem to be these sorts of protests in Russia?

31:01Why would that be, Jane? I don't know. Because it's not as if life's perfect there, is it? I think we don't understand the level of propaganda in Russia, do we? And do you remember that film that we all watched? What was that called about the amazing Mr Nobody Thank You Eve? Gosh, that was a good film, yes, it was. About the teacher. The teacher who then decided to be open with the world about the amount of pressure that he was coming under just in his school in the middle of blooming nowhere. And it is well worth fishing that out. I think that answers your question about why there aren't protests.

31:37Well, people are bloody petrified because it's a completely, well, it's a totalitarian, ghastly terrorist state, frankly, as simple as that. Anyway, like I say, the world is going to hell in a handcart. But we're still here. But we are still here. Yep.

32:19with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only. Not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. A lot of people want to defend Fee's knees. Fee's knees. Pam is in Auckland in New Zealand where things are also relatively calm. Fee, today was not the first time you'd bad-mouthed your own knees. No, and it won't be the last, Pam. I do sympathise as I too have turnip knees that are from no angle even remotely nice to look at. Do you want to see mine? I'm going to show them to you now. What do you think is wrong with them relative to other people?

32:56Well, look at that. So most people, they don't have a knee that is actually wider than their leg underneath and their leg above. Well, I could show you mine. So just imagine it. No, you see, those aren't. Look, you've got a slimmer bit there underneath your knee. Marginally, yeah. Yep, and so you've got a nice kind of turn of your leg. You've got a turn of your leg. I don't have a turn of my leg. This is what used to happen when you went to your first Masons meeting, wasn't it? You'd roll up your trouser leg. Yes, why do they do that? And reveal. Oh, we'll never find out because we're not allowed into the lodge.

33:31I too, though, have finally come round to being immensely grateful to my knees, says Pam, for having, over what is by now a pretty long lifetime, been so admirably reliable. They, and of course the rest of my legs and my feet, have carried me so many, many miles, up, down and along, with no complaint or difficulty, or my even having to give a single moment's thought to the work they've done and are doing so well. So now I smile at them, give them a friendly pat, and on we go, effortlessly, on our way together. Just try it. Yes, no, I do agree with you, Pam, and I've never bad-mouthed my knee's ability to carry me through life, but they're just extremely unattractive.

34:13When you're younger, you do get really fixated on very odd parts of your body, you know, that don't look like what they're meant to look like in the magazines and all that kind of stuff, and we just know that. So my knees and my forearms. Have anybody's knees, honestly, been that, have been celebrated? Have they been celebrated? I don't know. There'll be an OnlyFans channel coming on. There just will be, yeah. but something rather there was a bit of fatuous behaviour from young Eve a little earlier today wasn't there what are you referring to? well a box arrived and you and Rosie were being rather silly about it what was in the box?

34:53it was from Lily Allen's collaboration oh was it sex toys? yes okay what have we been sent? yes actually who was sent them? they were sent to me feel free to share them do you know what There are lots of things in life you should share. Sex and sex are not. Good point, well made. There is a West End girl polka dot butt plug. Right. And there was a... This is not the direction I thought the podcast would go in today. Yes, keep it coming. There was a love heart shaped vibrator that Rosie's called Dibs on. All right. Do you know what? I've heard enough. Okay. Okay. Well. Yeah. I don't know how you got from knobbly knees to that.

35:40Well, I didn't. But you did, Jane. I started talking about who had the world's nicest knees. Yeah. And then somehow we got as far as... Made you think of sex toys. Well, it must have done, but I don't know why. No, I don't know why. I don't know why. So we're all being much more open about sex toys these days, aren't we? Including Boots the Chemist. And in my local boots, which people who live in North London will know, it's absolutely a huge one down at the Angel. Is it a mega one? It's a mega one. Oh, I know that one. Yeah, it's on two floors. Yeah. And they, it's not as big as the one at Westfield.

36:12I can't go in that one. It's overwhelming. It's like Lichtenstein. It's huge. Overwhelming. Yeah. And especially because some of the things that I need are right at the back of that store. And you've got to fight your way through kind of seven aisles of perfumes and lipsticks and hair glosses, haven't you? No, I can't do that at all. So I'm back at the Angel. and they've got their area of, I think they call it something funny, don't they? Kind of euphemistically nice, their kind of female emancipation aisle or whatever it is they call it. It's just quite funny because it's next to the, they've put all of the vibrators and lube and all of that kind of stuff.

36:53They put it opposite the most boring aisle. What, like surgical spirit and plasters? Exactly that. And long form dressings. and the number of people, the number of people examining long-form dressing, surgical spirits, for huge amounts of time, just congregating around an aisle that was never busy before, Jane. Isn't that funny? It was the aisle you could saunter straight down in order to get to the photo section. That was very, very busy. Very, very, very busy indeed. I can't imagine. I mean, I do hope they don't, you know, sometimes your local supermarket, I mean, in my case, I've been going to the same one for 25 years, they'll have a rearrange.

37:29They'll suddenly move the chickpeas to... I don't think that's nice. Well, it isn't nice. But let's hope boots don't do it because there'll be all kinds of discombobulation amongst the people who just want to buy surgical spirit, honestly. I know, there certainly will be. Actually, that was something my dad always had in stock. Oh, my brain. No, surgical spirit. Surgical spirit. And in fact, weirdly, I used it not that long ago and I was staying in his flat because I needed it for... I had a bit of a broken toenail. Just cleared it up a treat. So he knew what he was doing. Okay. In some ways he did.

38:07I feel we've leandered very successfully. Joanna says, Eve, I have daughters in their 20s and I just want to say I'm so very impressed with your poise, intelligence, humour and professionalism at quite a tender age. She's now in her 50s. She's not so young anymore. But Joanna, thank you. I'm not feeling so professional. Right. Yes, she really is. No, she's a delight, Joanna. Well spotted. Thank you, Joanna. Yes, quite. Joanna has a suggestion. Can you get the author Eleanor Anstruther on? She's quite extraordinary. She's written four books and her latest is an astonishing piece of literary fiction called Fallout.

38:47It's about Greenham Common and there are amazingly, there are very few books on this topic. Oh, I would have thought there'd be novels about Greenham Common. I'm sure there are. I think the book is brilliant and she is brilliant too. I heard her speaking at the Military History Festival and honestly she was mesmerising. Well Joanna, thank you. I suppose we haven't actually talked about Greenham Common on the podcast, I don't think, have we? We have in passing. Have we? Yes, we have. And only, I would always recognise a conversation about Greenham Common because my mum was one of the protesters there.

39:18And my sister went there too. Oh right. And they did the hands around the base. And I think it's an interesting point actually about how quickly we've forgotten it because although it will come up in the history of protest and stuff like that, I can't think of a novel that is set in Greenham Common or really features it. And also it doesn't come up that often in drama. So there'll be quite a few protests that will be recognised within a Sally Wainwright drama or something like that, just in a historical context. Very rarely do I see a reference to Greenham. Because there was, what was the name of, was it Film Pride?

39:58was about the minors and gay rights people joining up together. You're up to see rights, yeah. So why hasn't Greenham Common been celebrated or marked in that way or even just featured? I don't know, Jane. It's a strange one. I'll tell you what I did see last night. The incredibly, I mean, it's not easy viewing by any stretch, but the documentary that the BBC made was out last night about Aberfan. And oh my goodness, it's the anniversary, I think tomorrow, the 21st. I mean, I was obviously a baby when it happened in 1966. so I didn't really know that much about it. It's one of the... I think it must be the worst thing that's happened in this country in my lifetime.

40:37Well, there was an amazing documentary that was done by John Humphreys before he left the BBC. Oh, was that? Okay. Because he was... he reported on it. That's right, he did. At the time. And actually, I hardly recommend going back and having a listen to that. I'm sure this TV documentary is equally as good. And he just made the point at the end that actually it did mark a change in people's ability to really question authority. Yeah. And to want to question their own previously small place in their world. Wow, yes, yeah. Because it was a lack of care and attention. Astonishing lack of care from the National Coal Board as it was at the time.

41:21that had led to something that people had warned about, a tragedy happening. And it was just beautifully done, actually, really, really beautifully done. So I'm glad it's being revisited again. It's very poignant. It's called The Village That Fought Back, and it's about how the local community just had to press so hard to get the slag heaps, the tips, just destroyed. They were still there after the initial tragedy. And the NCB appeared to think it was OK to keep them there. I mean, just the sexism was absolutely rampant. The mothers and the women of the village were being sort of written off as slightly hysterical ladies who just needed to be told to calm down.

42:03Honestly, unbelievable. And do you know the compensation offered to people who'd lost a child? 50 quid. I mean, absolutely astonishing. I didn't know any of that. So if you can bear it, and certainly if you're younger than, well, if you're younger than, well, actually, if you're younger than 70, you probably won't remember that much about it. And you probably won't know that much about it. So I do urge people to have a look. And Fee's right, it's just about how far we've travelled in terms of questioning authority. I think sexism plays a part in Greenham Common. Oh, God, yeah, it probably does.

42:36You know, it kind of invested in the right way in our social history, the tapestry of it. But for so many women, it really changed their lives as well because it was a place that they went to where they felt strong, you know, in a world that they probably hadn't felt particularly strong in before. I think there was just enormous sucker to be had from joining that protest. Well, we'd love to, if you've got any personal reminiscences, there must be some people listening. Oh, God, there'll be loads of people listening. Could your mum email the programme? Well, mum doesn't listen to the podcast. No, she doesn't listen to the podcast.

43:11Because, as we've discussed before, she has listened and it's not for her. No. So that's completely, well, it's absolutely fine. I mean, look what we've talked about already. Well, that was Eve's fault, not ours. That was Eve's, yeah. That was very much Eve's fault. But, you know, I think my mother's got a Boots loyalty card and she'll be able to put it in the same way again. I'm still laughing about the rat-an chair. Anyway, right. Thank you, everybody. Stop it, Wicker Man. Oh, by the way, that film is out. Because I thought it hadn't been released, but it definitely is out, Sasha. Well, that's your weekend sorted.

43:44It might well be. Right, OK. it's jaydenfee at times.radio thank you for bearing with us we're back tomorrow yeah look forward to it

44:10congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off air with jaydenfee thank you If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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