Looking spectacularly chubby while hoovering in a nurse's uniform (with Delia Smith)

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1:02Welcome to the haunted library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From gothic masterpieces to pulpy penny dreadfuls. Join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts.

1:39Is the, um, is the equipment one per use? Oh, please, Eve. God. nobody needed to hear that right um welcome to off air with jane and eve uh we were just discussing um elements of our colleagues stay in this wellness retreat um fee is spending a week it is in germany isn't it this wellness place yeah uh and she's there uh for a week ish i think it is about a week um and i've i just went got in touch with her this morning just to make sure she was all right and she is okay um and she gave me more detail than i needed um and i'm not sure how much of that she won't make public so we don't need to go into that but it's beautiful it looked beautiful didn't it it did look beautiful yeah and this is what we've when we've been discussing in the past um the appeal of germany and we have mentioned whatever or i have because it's one of my um little nuggets that i like to pass on um it was such a popular holiday destination for the British until it wasn't.

2:42And we all know why it became less popular. But it is a ravishingly beautiful country. It really is. And it looks like Fee's in a gorgeous spot. It does look beautiful, yeah. It has a lot to offer Germany, I think. Oh, no, it really does. Great cities, beautiful countryside. Oh, an amazing culture. Oh, my headphones shot right off. That's because I think I used too much conditioner on my hair this morning. Slipping and sliding off. Oh, we'll have to give those headphones a wipe down after. Have you heard the big news of the day? what is it people magazine has released its sexiest man alive god named for 2026 um who would yours be sexiest man alive oh god um michael fassbender really i thought you'd get behind this noah weill oh my goodness you like him don't you i do like him yeah i absolutely do uh although he's quite serious i don't i don't see it okay um i i think perhaps you don't see it because you see him in a medical capacity but then i but then is he just getting it because of the role he plays which is a capable doctor so it's his character getting it there is something there's always something immensely attractive actually i would say about either sex when you see them carrying out their duties in a calm collected incredibly capable way i find that incredibly attractive it's a really wonderful thing to witness i think you'll probably what do you think is the sexiest profession.

4:07Why are you asking me? This is not that sort of podcast. Podiatrist. Far of it for me to think too hard on the People magazine. Disc jockey and podcaster. Quite right. Exactly. Hang on. Fee's been back in touch. Here we are. Live updates. I am in Germany. I'm about to have boiled potatoes for lunch. All is good. Share, she says. I I think she means share the information. I mean, she actually wrote to us earlier, the good news is this place is very beautiful. The bad news is I can give myself a DIY enemy in my room. Now, all I'll say about that is she didn't mean enemy. She meant something else.

4:51And I had to explain it to Eve, who was quite shocked. And I'm a little shocked myself. Now, there's no evidence at all to suggest that Fee will be doing this. We need to make that very clear. but it is part of the treatment available at this establishment. I can't wait to hear more about it now. So people are paying quite a lot of money to go here, flush themselves out and have boiled potatoes for lunch. Listen, I'm seriously thinking if time's become, you know, hard when I'm finally given the heave-ho from Times Towers, I might just set up one of these establishments. Yeah. A couple of spare rooms.

5:24I'm very fortunate when the, you know, offspring finally moved out. I can clear all their guff away and I can set myself up as a wellness guru and just serve a few spuds. I mean, what could go wrong? Even money for a rope, isn't it? That sounds foolproof. Admittedly, I can't offer the bucolic idyll that this German establishment can offer. But I mean, the foxes, they have slightly disappeared. Well, one man's alpaca farm is another person's fox den. Yeah, that's true. I have actually asked, what am I talking about? There was a spider on the kitchen floor this morning. I've picked it up and put it outside.

6:00And we've got foxes who are relatively regular visitors to the top of the garden shed. So I do essentially live in the countryside. No getting away from it. Right, can we just do a couple of parish notices? Just to say to Alistair, can you give us the web address for the prepper you interviewed on the radio programme on Monday the 26th of October? Well, just in case you're also a podcast listener, I'll mention it here too, but I will also mention it on the radio a little bit later. When are we on? usually Monday to Thursday between two o 'clock and four get the Times Radio app it's absolutely free but I am doing a program today on my own because as you know fees in Germany but this is quite good this website and it's been set up by a Times Radio listener called Mark Riley and it's about prepping but I don't want to sound all dystopian I know I'm a bit guilty of that Mark Riley has just put the effort in to this website which allows you to calculate what you will need depending on the size of your household.

6:58And it's called buytosurvive.co.uk. It's the off-grid survival calculator and it will just help you through those days that may be heading our way. There's no certainty about this, but we do know that we probably should, if we're sensible and we have a little bit of cash to spare, just have enough provisions to get us through a couple of days. Should there be, I'm not talking about warfare, but I think it's much more likely there'll be some cyber incident possibly impacting on water supply and the supply chain which we know is quite a fragile fragile creature really you're nodding at me but i can tell that you've got something to say go on i just think it's funny how people are falling into one of two camps at the moment yeah um because i was talking to my boyfriend's parents and they they came home with a load of water the other day and their friends were going out to get a load of cash out to shove under the mattress as well.

7:50And you can turn your nose up at it, but ultimately, if and when the time comes, there will only be one camp laughing. And it won't be the people who've been very rude about the government telling us to prepare. I hate to say it, but it's true. Yeah, it is true. And I know some people don't like the current British government and some people think, oh, they're just trying to alarm us, so it's ridiculous. But I think they do. Well, they do. Their first duty is to protect us, is to make sure we're safe. And I don't think it is that unreasonable just to say to people, you know, give a bit of spare water.

8:25It's not unreasonable, but as we saw with COVID, there are unfortunately people who give them an inch, they'll take it a mile, do seem to absolutely lose their heads and just take it too far and then leave nothing for the rest of the people. Strip the shelves. Who just need to do their normal weekly shop. Okay, so bear those people in mind. Yes. Now we were talking yesterday about, do you ever go to Oxford Street? I'm not a big fan. Well, no, because it's a hellhole. It is a hellhole. Well, but maybe less of a hellhole. We're talking about London's most notorious shopping street. And it does have some good shops on it.

8:59There's absolutely no doubt. I think Selfridge's window displays can be a thing of beauty. Yeah, they're going to get all the Christmas displays soon. They are amazing. And I think that's a terrific skill set. I don't know how they do it. I think it's great. So, so colourful and imaginative. I've got a friend who's currently working the night shifts at Fortnum and Mason's getting the windows ready oh yeah well any what can you tell us nothing okay thank you um fortnum and mason just a tip here um i got this from my agent an absolute legend uh fortnum and mason do a very good sale um just after christmas if you want christmas food products like i got a gorgeous cherry cake i think it was a couple of years ago and things like um tea bags in special tins they've got them all quite cheap from about the 27th probably the 26th of december that is good to know they're good because the tins are actually worth more than the contents are things of beauty as well so you can you can do a bit of prepping the fortnum and mason way anyway we're not here to advertise high-end uh london shops but just to say that i am much more likely now to visit oxford street because it's pedestrianized and but what i am angry about are the numpty cyclists who just aren't paying any attention to yeah i yeah it's just annoying i saw yesterday evening that um a run club had made it their meeting point.

10:17God's sake. Okay, well, do you mean just joggers? You know when they meet up at one point and then they head off together. So there was about 50 people for a run club met in the middle of Oxford Street. Is that bad? They're not on transport. They're not going to knock people down. No, it's not bad, but I think it just kind of added to the extra chaos and busyness of it all. It's the last thing you need as we head into the Christmas period for a large run club to make it their meeting point. Okay, don't do that, everybody. And just a very quick one. Gillian says, I'm in a very wet deal in Kent.

10:47Now, that's a lovely town, isn't it? You hear a lot about deal these days. I think it's had a little bit of a zhuzh up. Anyway, Gillian says, I thought you had the most amazing person on just before four o 'clock, but I didn't catch her name. She was talking about accusations of anti-Semitism at the BBC. What was her name? It was Lucy Conn, Gillian. And I do urge you, if you can, to go back and listen to that interview. You can do that on the Times Radio app, can't you? You can for free. Yes, absolutely, completely free and really totally free. You could also do a lot worse than watch some of Lucy's work, which is still available on the iPlayer, notably her incredibly successful award-winning documentary, Mr Nobody Against Putin.

11:29That was a truly, truly stupendous documentary, absolutely fantastic. Now, just to say our guest today is only Delia Smith. Only. And I say that because if you're my generation, perhaps not Eve's actually, Delia is just, she only needs her Christian name. You don't need to say anything else. Delia has guided us through so much. I think she's a brilliant, brilliant woman. And she has a new book out, which is really about her not cooking. It's about her spiritual side. It's about her political side. She is a very, very passionate woman, Delia. The book is called Us, Nine Ingredients to Change Our World.

12:06and very, very sadly, her husband has just died, Michael. They were a fantastically successful partnership, a really terrific unit known for their joint passion for Norwich City Football Club. He, I think, really enjoyed her food. I mean, can you imagine being married to a really successful... I mean, what must that have been like? Hit the jackpot. But all those of us who've tried Adelia know that they do work. I did find my copy of Adelia's How to Cook, book one, yesterday, and just had a look through it. And she takes a very firm line on baked potatoes. And I'm a bit... I love a baked potato.

12:43I'm not sure I've ever really properly got them right because I'm always very hungry when I fancy one and I'm not prepared to wait. So I try and fire them up really quickly at 200 Celsius for about an hour and 10 minutes. Delia says 190 for two hours. That seems like a long time. It's a very long time. But she's probably right. I can ask her about it later. What do you think? I just think for a baked potato. I don't know if it's quite justifiable. It's a lot of power for one baked potato. Because you sort of think of it as like a simple lazy dinner. Oh, it's not. Well, a perfect one is a thing of real beauty.

13:19I'm part of the team who microwaves it first and then finishes it in the oven. I don't know about that. I'm not sure where I stand. Joe is in Dorset, Poundbury. My husband has just bought the last two tins of corned beef from Waitrose. Are we preppers? can we get you on fm if it all goes pear-shaped asks joe i don't think we can i'm afraid not yeah i don't know what we're gonna do that actually yeah i wish i'd never mentioned it difficult

13:58if you felt stuck trying to lose weight you're not alone enter weight loss by hers it's designed to support you in reaching your goals. And HERS now offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the WeGovi pill and the WeGovi pen. Even better, with a range of affordable GLP-1 options, HERS makes it simple to find an approach that fits your needs and your budget, if eligible. You'll get a treatment plan personalized to you and unlimited dosage changes as needed. It's weight loss designed to work with your life. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com slash eligible to get personalized, affordable care that gets you.

14:36That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash eligible. ForHERS dot com slash eligible. Weight loss by HERS is not available in all 50 states. WeGovi is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, WeGovi clinical study information, and restrictions, visit ForHERS dot com.

15:01Welcome to the Haunted Library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From gothic masterpieces to pulpy penny dreadfuls, join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find the Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts.

15:31cultured listener fran uh sends us a postcard from the andy warhol exhibition at milton keen's gallery she says it's absolutely excellent uh from the land where robots deliver shopping don't be jealous uh fran thank you very much um i've not i've not heard of that exhibition i'm not i'm not a massive fan of andy warhol is that terrible i don't know i don't think so but Fran has sent quite a nice postcard. Well, it's the Marilyn Monroe image, isn't it? Yeah. And yes, I mean, she's obviously super alluring. Fran, thank you. Super alluring. Marilyn will be turning in her grave for that endorsement from me.

16:12She'll be absolutely... Won't she be elated, everybody? I think it'll mean so much to her. It really will. Poor old soul. Yeah, Andy Warhol. Oh, I don't know. That sort of pop art thing. Leaves me a bit cold. I like a nice landscape. Fair enough. But thank you very much for sending us the card. And tell us more about the robots. Do they really deliver shopping to every household in Milton Keynes? And to Sarah in Carlisle, what a lovely card about my dad. Thank you so much. She says, take time to grieve the loss of your dad, your family dynamic and your role as daughter. And I do think that's significant, actually.

16:48When you suddenly reflect that you're now at the top of your family tree, it can be a bit daunting. But time will help you adjust. It's certainly helped me look back with happiness 30 plus years on. Thank you so much, Sarah. And I honestly, I'm really touched by the emails we've had and the cards. And do you know what, Eve? And this is an interesting thing. I had a lovely email, which I read this morning, from somebody I used to work with who her own mum has only very recently died. And you know when you hear from somebody that if you hadn't heard from them, well you wouldn't have expected to hear from them but she actually took a moment to write to me and she just didn't need to bother and I just thought that was just really that sort of thing is really really touching It cuts through when someone makes that effort Not because I'd forgotten her because I hadn't but I just wouldn't have expected to hear from her anyway that sort of thing really does yeah as you say it cuts through it's just people just going a little bit further than you might have expected and it's really kind of people just to spend a bit of time choosing a card and writing one.

17:55And shall we just say at the moment, paying for the stuff. Flippin' heck. Now, we've had an email here from somebody who is seven. That was very good. She'll probably be a bit insulted by that noise. I won't ask Eve to do it again. It's Isla. Thank you so much, Isla. She says, my name is Isla. I am seven and I live at Point Cottage. long time listener first time emailer ever that's whoa brilliant i wanted to tell you that my mum and my nanny love your podcast and actually so do i i'm so sorry about your dad i'm learning how to a scarf for my bunny and the bunny's name is bashful isla thank you um much appreciated thank you for making the effort as well and thank you for your very kind thoughts about my dad um bashful is a really good name that is a really good name yeah a really good name sounds like isla's much more talented than any of us.

18:48Learning to knit a scarf. I know. I mean, I can't... I had my Knitting Nancy when I was very young and Knitting Nancy, I'm sure I've mentioned her before because it was such a weird 70s thing. It was basically a quite short bit of wood with a girl's face painted on it. And then, I don't know, but the wool, you sort of knitted it a bit and it came out of a bottom. I know. Oh. It wasn't really a scarf. It was just a... I mean, what was that all about? If anybody can help me there, please, please let me know what I was all supposed to do. I had a pink and purple, it wasn't a toy sewing machine, but it was a smaller, more plasticky version.

19:29It was a sewing machine, though. And I would sit next to my grandma and we would both sew. I mean, mine was just a joke compared to hers. But I still don't really know how that was acceptable. There was a needle that came up and down and up and down and up and down. Also, yeah, health and safety would be a concern. Also, sexism, Eve. let's just i mean there's a photograph of me looking spectacularly chubby and quite grumpy um so not much has changed aged about two standing in a nurse's uniform but with my toy hoover god the work doesn't stop does it i just it just i i think i'm standing in front of a christmas tree and it's just like, I mean, really weird.

20:12I mean, life has changed a bit. How did you end up where you are? I wonder what sent you on your path. God alone knows. Anyway, Isla eventually handed over control of the email to her mum, Fiona, who says, we were listening on Monday when Jane and Eve were chatting about the joy of intergenerational conversations. Isla and I often listen together on the school run and she always notices when one of you isn't on the show. She is quick to show concern and ask why. I've recently introduced your podcast to my mum as well and she particularly enjoyed Jane reminiscing about her dad and how you could walk in without a limb and he just wouldn't notice.

20:51We did laugh out loud at that. We can completely relate. My father is exactly the same. Thank you for the conversations, the laughs and the feeling of being part of them. It's become something really special for three generations of our family to enjoy together. That's fantastic. That's lovely. Thank you, Isla. Thank you, Fiona. And we don't have mum's name, but I'm glad that she's involved in the mix as well. Now, public interactions are not all bad. This is important. This comes in from Amy. Hey to all of the team. I don't care who's in or who's out. I think you're all lovely. Isn't that positive?

21:27Thank you. I'm sitting here on a Sunday listening to Sean Keaveney and Johnny Marr, Indie Nonsense. Well, listen, everyone's got their thing. Johnny Ma is a genius. Sean Keaveney's a genius, so I think that's OK. I was on the Vicky line earlier this evening having a very quiet cry facing the window about a late-in-life love interest becoming not-so-interested. And just as I changed at Finney P, which is... Finsbury Park. A lovely lady caught my eye and mouthed, earphones were in, to ask if I was okay. I nodded and I smiled at her, at which point she opened her arms for a hug and I went in. It was really lovely.

22:10Amy, that is gorgeous. And I'm sorry that you were having just a bit of a horrible moment and just a, you know, slightly gloomy reflection on the way things appear to be turning at the moment. But you see, something they did notice and they wanted just to offer you a little bit of comfort. I think that's great. It's funny the way public transport sometimes can be such a vehicle for human connection and interaction, but also to really dwell on feelings. There's something about sitting on a bus or a train. You can get really lost in your own world and it almost can be enjoyable to dwell in some sad emotions on public transport.

22:48Well, particularly if you're listening to music. I mean, at the moment, because I'm in a bit of an odd period, I suppose, I can't listen to anything that's likely to upset me. Music, I mean. Yeah, I get that. And that literally means anything by the Beatles. Really? Because it's Liverpool. It's a good job for he's not here. He's just having to skip. I think that's partly because after the terrible... I mean, I've been dwelling on it. After the funeral is over, and that's this week, we have to sell mum and dad's flat, which is going to be really sad and clear it out. Then what do we do? Yeah. And what will it mean for going to Liverpool?

23:23I don't know. I mean, lots of my friends have already faced this because so many of us left in the 80s. Well, I think that will be it, isn't it? You're just going to have to rally with your friends. Well, that's one of the nice things about the funeral. And I do mean nice things because, you know, obviously Dad was of an age. Some of my school friends are coming, so we're going to have a bit of a night out on a Thursday night. Do you still have school friends up in Liverpool? None of them. A couple of people I do see for coffee, but on the whole, most of us left. Yeah. And it was partly because you need to be my age to appreciate the economy of the north-west of England, particularly Liverpool in the mid-80s, it didn't look brilliant.

24:00It just wasn't viable. No, because it's a completely different place now. But I think the population of the city went down by a huge chunk, actually, as so many people were obliged to, what was Norman Tebbett's expression, get on their bikes and go and find work, and a lot of us did. It's a weird thing. I've got a good friend who lost her mum a couple of years ago, and they're about to sell the family home. Right. And it's kind of how much emphasis you want to put on a place holding someone's essence or the memories of them. Yeah. Or whether you kind of choose to carry them within you and leave that place behind.

24:36But it's still very daunting. It is daunting. It is definitely daunting. I mean, I should say that I think clearing out the family home must be so, so tough. Yeah. I mean, my mum and dad's flat was not the family home. They left that a while ago. And I think, so actually they've done most of the hard work. I need to acknowledge that they did an awful lot of chucking out and I wasn't around to help them, I must be honest about that. My children were pretty young at the time. So they have done the heavy lifting. But by the way, I'd still like to ask my dad why he's chucked out so many photographs.

25:10We were looking for photographs for his funeral and I don't know what got into him. I think he was probably not, he wasn't particularly cheery in the last couple of months of his life and I think he was throwing things out because he wanted to but, you know, there was some great... He used to go on all the time about his national service. We cannot find any images with it in his RAF uniform. He probably did think he was doing a slight favour for you and that you wouldn't really care so he'd just get rid to make your life a bit easier. Yeah, I know, and that's what's really sad. Anyway, everyone will have had similar experiences to this, but, yeah, don't chuck stuff out that could be...

25:45Just, I don't know, just be really touching and important for other generations. I'm not going to throw out any of my broadcasting trophies. Do you want to move on to that conversation you want to have about hoarding? Oh, God, yeah, we need to talk about that. But actually, Amy, who had that lovely encounter at Finsbury Park, I mean, which is surprising in itself, Amy. Sorry, back with Amy. You know, because, Amy, I've been to nicer stations than Finsbury Park, but what a lovely woman you met and how great it was that she reached out to you. You need a sign-off like Mayo and Kermode have. Apparently, they end their podcast with tinkety-tonk old fruit and down with the Nazis.

26:21Well, as I was explaining to Eve earlier, That was borrowed from the old Queen Mum. She used to end her World War II missives with that. And I do think it's a cracker. I mean, obviously, as we heard from Lady Glen Connor, her bevy was gin and jabonnet, wasn't it? Yes. She'd probably be sipping a gin and jabonnet as she wrote letters. Probably didn't always come out entirely perfect. No, but I do love Tinkety Tonk, Old Fruit and Down With The Nazis. That's brilliant. I quite literally never know what note you and Fia are going to end the podcast on. You don't? No. The other day it was about bollocks in an Abban calendar.

26:55I can't imagine that must have been Fee. That wouldn't have been me, would it? No, hardly. Now, we do want to mention hoarding, but I'll just briefly mention swans. Georgia says, long-time listener, first-time emailer, whatever happened to that jingle? Well, I like the jingle. But people who were trying to get to sleep found it rather woke them up. Yeah, oh, God. Following Jane's surprise at her interrupted rail journey by a swan on the line, I just had to make contact to confirm it's not as uncommon as you might think I get the train into London from Berkhamstead that's a very nice part of the world and for the first part of the journey the train line follows the Grand Union Canal I've been on a train halted by a swan on the line just refusing to budge in the end the train guard had to get off the train mid-track and try and shoo it away I just thought I'd give my two cents she says for what it's worth as a regular commuter the most common disruption I encounter is damaged overhead power lines always at Watford Junction.

27:55It's at the point now where they should just build a bypass. Georgia in Berkhamstead, thank you. Controversial note there about a suggestion for a bypass. I mean, who's to say our time is more important than a swan's anyway? Well, I mean, that's it. But, you know, that leads me on to the terrible thought about AI and the very real possibility that AI is going to need rights and demand rights because, in fact, it will be more intelligent than us. So who are we to deny AI? I was going to say human rights, but rights. Oh, that gives me the heebie-jeebies. Let's talk about hoarding because, we wanted to mention this, because there was a very interesting item in our money news yesterday with Megan Harwood-Baines about a lady who had inherited a property.

28:40And on the face of it, it sounded brilliant, didn't it? Yeah, it was in a really good location in London, wasn't it? Brilliant location and worth about half a million quid, I think a bit less so not a huge place but in a fantastic as Eve says brilliant relatively central London location close to so much stuff and there was just one thing that was the matter with this apartment which was that it was full of stuff her friend who'd left it to her it turned out had been a hoarder and I remember years ago doing an item about hoarding with a woman who'd been married to hoarder and honestly it it was such a tough experience for her she could do almost nothing to control her husband's addiction to stuff and I think there's a streak of this in all of us there's absolutely no doubt about it I mean you mentioned my broadcasting trophies well I was also thinking it's quite it's quite something that unfortunately people get confronted with in the midst of grief yeah it's their responsibility to clean out a house that is just like this lady filled with junk and when you're also grieving someone that is a lot yeah it really is i know the fire brigade take hoarding very seriously because it's a proper fire risk as you can imagine but you were saying actually that you can remember from your adolescence yeah a woman in brighton there was quite a notorious hoarder in brighton um she has died hasn't she she has died now yeah she was um called olive she was quite a character and her whole long pathway up to her front door was piled with rubbish.

30:07So she extended it outside her home? It came all the way to the gate and it was quite a long path that led up to her front door and it really did smell of rubbish and she got quite a lot of complaints and quite often the council would send orders that she would have to clean it up but she was this tiny woman in her 80s or whatever and it was just more than she could ever handle but she also kept hoarding. and she kept going because I would see her, she lived at the top of this hill and she would go up this hill laden with bags and I would offer to help her and she'd sort of bite your head off.

30:43She was quite formidable. But I just, I really don't know much about it. I don't know why it happens, where it comes from. I don't know if these people want help. But it is, as I say, it's not something the fire brigade take lightly at all. It's a real, real risk for a fire. or of course you might unfortunately just have something fall on you. Anyway, that's probably a bit melodramatic. Well, I don't know. It's a very extreme case of hoarding. Yeah, I mean there are obviously far less extreme cases but I think we are all, I know I am, inclined to keep stuff which we don't need partly because it just starts to feel like a massive challenge and not one that you're ready for to get rid of the stuff.

31:26Anyway, do tell us if you have any experience of this. in your life. It's hard as well because it's sort of like what you were saying about your dad where at one point things mean nothing so you think oh, chuck it in the bin and then ten years later you're suddenly looking for it but then it's that mentality that means you end up holding on to rubbish because you're like oh, I might want it one day. Yeah, we have mercifully found a very sweet photograph and it just shows in a way what is why we can't be too gloomy about this just shows how long he was alive for because it's a photograph of him as about a three-year-old.

31:56Did I show you? And he's got it's black and white obviously and he's got little tea bar shoes on white white ankle socks and he's wearing a tie he's got a tie on what does his ice cream stand say he's got a little ice cream truck which he's propelling across a lawn and the ice cream truck says stop me and buy one and there's various things on offer a snow fruit a brick um something else i mean it's a very sweet image but it must i mean it must have been taken honestly i think in logically speaking in the year of the abdication so about 1936. He looks like quite bossy. I probably would end up buying an ice cream from him.

32:33He looks like a little, frankly, a little dictator, appropriately. I mean, he did have his moments. Anyway, so not all of the brilliant images have been lost, thank goodness, so that is good. But yeah, if you are someone who just has cute images of you as a child, don't chuck them out. Don't, you know, do hang on to them. Keep them in an envelope. Do something with them. Other than your broadcasting trophies, what is the thing you hoard the most, do you think? Or just drivel, particularly from the children, you know, their school projects, stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I mean, I'm not being funny, Eve, but they weren't great artists.

33:06They're still not. So I don't need their oil paintings from their GCSE art. Nobody does. They're terrible. I mean, I love them dearly, but they're not any good at art. They never were. It's all that sort of stuff. And I've got a lot of children's books, because we were very fortunate. We were bought a lot of them by relatives and friends and that. but what are you going to do? And you haven't got rid of them yet? I haven't got rid of them. And I've also got the Peppa Pig, I've got the Playmobil aeroplane, which actually is good, to be fair. And I've got the Peppa Pig camper van, a very nice camper van, and lots of friends.

33:46And I've kept that. Are you thinking that one day their children might want to? Well, I suppose so, but I mean, I don't want to encourage them just yet. Or do I? if only to make use of some of those things I've kept. So they go somewhere. Yeah, it is ridiculous, isn't it? Well, we do hang on to stuff for crazy reasons. I'm relatively good at getting rid of my old jumpers and taking them to the charity shop and things like that. I do think books, though, last... I was literally reading to my boyfriend's niece the other day... What books does she like? Well, we're reading A Bear Hunt. She's one and a half, and then she was bouncing on my knee reciting it to me because it's so absorbed in her head.

34:24and I thought, I think, how long has that book been going that there's now a one and a half year old and it's some of the first lines that she knows? That's a special magic though in that book. I do think that is truly brilliant. And there's just, it's quite an adventure. Well, it is. It's a hunt. For a bear. No spoilers here.

34:50Right, okay. Let's bring in our guest today, the one, the only Delia happens to have a surname Smith, but it's Delia. We know it's Delia. Welcome, Delia. Hello, Jane. Now, you are the author of cookbooks. We've all got them. I was looking at my copy of How to Cook, part one, only last night. Good. You're a football fan and you're someone who is spiritual, you are political, and you are unashamedly passionate. And your book is called Us, Nine Ingredients to Change our world. Now, I should say for people who only know you as the writer of the cookbooks, would they be surprised by this book and by, I really mean it, by the passion of your feeling about the grim old state of the planet right now?

35:37I'm not sure, Jane. I really don't know. I mean, I assume, yeah, they will be perhaps a bit surprised. But I hope because they like my cookbooks and they trust them, maybe they might trust me on this one too. It's not the first time you veered away from writing cookbooks, is it? We need to say that. Yes. You've done other books before. No, I have, yeah. You've written about faith, for example. Well, early on, yeah, many, many years ago. But about five years ago, I did a book called You Matter, which I loved doing. But unfortunately, it really didn't get to many people. Well, I gather you actually had to struggle to get that published, which is absurd.

36:22Yes, I did. Because how many cookbooks have you sold? 22 ,000, last count. No, million. Million, sorry. Oh, sorry, yeah. That's a rather important bit. I was going to say, 22 ,000, I mean, that's a lot. 22 million is brilliant. Yeah, it's incredible. And even with that in your locker, you had a struggle to get that book out. Yes, yes, the other one. Yes, I did, I did. And I don't know, it's difficult. I don't know what will happen to this one, but certainly I'm hoping it will reach people. Now, tell us about your intentions in writing this book, because I've got to say, I was surprised by how upset you appeared to be, almost despairing.

37:11I mean, I'll just do a brief quote from the book. Our world has largely fallen into the hands of tyrants, billionaires and the kingpins of tech. So tell us a little bit more about that. Well, I just feel, I feel great anxiety myself about the state of the world. I am a nature lover, I love the world, but I also have a deep love of humanity. And the sort of things that are happening in our world now are very threatening. And I think they're very dangerous and the situation is quite grave and that we really have to kind of take action and do something about it. We can't just stand by and let our beautiful planet and our beautiful human race, which is beautiful, come under the hammer like this.

38:03Now, who do you blame, if anybody? Because a lot of people would say, you know what, Delia, yes, I hear you, but we get the politicians we deserve to a large extent. What would you say to that? No, I don't really believe that. And I believe, which I've written quite a lot about in the book, I believe that what's wrong is the politics. The systems of the politics we've got now in the world, i.e. party politics and so forth, are not working. We can't say they are working. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see that the world is not working at the moment and that we're in trouble. But talking about Britain, as you're a British voter, are you politically homeless?

38:54Definitely. Definitely. I mean, now I just feel it's out of date. The political systems are out of date. The things that the tyrannisers of the world want, what they want is to separate us, divide us, keep us apart. And that's what party politics does anyway. It's ready made. It just divides us. We're either this side or that side. and if we're one side, the other side is trying to knock everything down. That side does. And I mean, you know, we've got a life to live. We don't want to be messing about like this. Well, OK, I suppose I'm trying to nail down what you actually want us all to do. OK.

39:40Now, let's say, are you talking about community action? What is it we should do in our street, in our town, what? In a word, we need to unite. if human citizens could learn how to unite and work together in solidarity, then tyranny would be finished, gone. And that is what I truly believe. I'm standing on the solid ground of truth. And that's where I am. Of course, tyrants make a few quid, don't they? And actually, division makes money. Yes. And algorithms create division. I mean, I know you do say in the book that populism absolutely thrives in the social media age. Yes. But I was thinking earlier about populism.

40:29Now, you and I are probably not drawn to it because we're both quite privileged, fortunate individuals. But if we weren't, wouldn't we find the whole concept of populism rather more appealing? Maybe we would, but that's because we're not very well informed. And I think we have been duped. We've been led to thinking that it's going to work and everything is going to be better and the establishment's all wrong. But unfortunately, that isn't what happens. And when you see power wielders in action, the atrocities that are going on everywhere in our world at the moment, and we are the human race, we should be refusing it, saying, no, we're not having a world like this anymore.

41:20We've got to grow up and be adult. And how do you conduct yourself in your daily life in terms of putting your views into action? What is it you're doing? You're talking to me, you're writing books, you're thinking. What else are you doing? I think that's quite a lot. In fairness, it is. I was saying it. Why am I asking you to do any more? No, I think in my daily life, I have been obsessed by trying to get this book done. And it's been very hard, incredibly difficult to write and communicate. But someone has to try and say it. And I hope it reaches people. and I hope if they read it, they will reflect on it because everybody has a capacity to know what truth is.

42:09Everybody has that capacity. Not everybody wants to have the capacity. Well, sometimes the truth is very troubling. And I don't know about you, as I've got older, I've discovered there are so many grey areas. I used to think things were so much more black and white. They're nothing of the sort, are they? Well, some things are black and white. Well, go on. What can we be absolutely certain about then? We can be absolutely certain about the magnificence of human life, that we take it for granted. But actually, if we think about it, since time began and we began to live on this planet, we have achieved so much.

42:44It's been incredible, everything that we've done. I mean, at the moment, we're flying around the back of the moon. We're hoping to go to Mars and Mars doesn't have any oxygen or water. But never mind, NASA is going to have a go. and that's who we are. We're a human race of so much talent, of so many gifts and we're allowing this bunch of tyrants to rule the world. Can I just put some points from listeners to you? Andrew says, go Delia. Good. On the other hand, we've got Martin who says, I think Delia is naive. I don't mind. I don't mind being called naive because in a way I expect to be called that.

43:28But the great sort of 20th century thinker Hannah Arendt said the truth is the ground on which we stand and that's the ground on which I'm standing and I believe what I'm saying is the truth. I don't want to make this too parochial as a conversation about your beliefs but are you impressed in any way by Andy Burnham? Have you felt a change in the air, a bit more positivity? Well, I was very impressed with Andy Burnham when he did so much to help the Hillsborough problem. And I do think his heart's in the right place and everything. He'd be a wonderful person to lead a people's politics. Not to lead it, because a people's politics wouldn't have leaders, but to administrate it.

44:15I think he gets it. I think that sort of in the back of his mind, he's looking at devolution, which is kind of a step towards a people's politics. But that's what I'm passionate about. I'm passionate about us being able, if we can fly around the back of the moon, we can develop a people's politics. So what are you saying a citizens assembly type situation? Well, I think citizens assemblies are definitely happening now all around the world. They don't get in the press much and people haven't heard of them, but they're actually happening everywhere. And I think they are the seedbed of what a people's politics could eventually be, what it looks like.

44:57You do link in your book, Us, football and your passion for collective action and humanity coming together. Now, some people will say, I'm a football fan. I go to football. What's your team, Jane? Well, it's Liverpool, really, but I don't want to whisper this, but I've got a Fulham season ticket. It's just nearer, you see. I love both clubs. Thank you. Craven Cottage, I've always thought of it as the Glyndebourne of football. Oh, it's lovely. It's very refined. Yes. I have been to Carrow Road, Norwich City, I know, your team. It is a world of collective spirit and a sort of unity, isn't it? You believe that football fans largely get on with each other.

45:39They do. So, I mean... Apart from the other bits when they don't. There is all the tribal bits and all that, but it's shallow. It's very shallow. At the deep end, football supporters, the one wonderful thing about them is that they're all equal. There's no inequality in football. Everybody, if you're a prime minister or if you're, you know, just an ordinary joiner in a building site or whatever, and you go to football, you're all the same. There isn't any difference. So the fact that Andy Burnham is a genuine Everton fan, does that endear him to you? Well, I think it does. I think football supporters, and you will know this, they understand what community is.

46:22And I think we've lost community because of the way communications are at the moment. And I think that's the first step. The first step is to reinvent community and do our best we can to relate to each other and not let, you know, it's just everything now. You know, you press a button, you put a card in, you listen to a recorded message. We need to get to know each other a bit more. Yes, if only. I mean, you won't be the only person who really feels passionately that, for example, the self-checkout. I mean, well, that's the end of civilisation as we know it really, isn't it? I rather like talking to people in shops.

47:01I don't know what the self-checkout is. Oh, the self-checkout. Yeah, the self-checkout, yes. And I've written in the book about the man who used to fill my car up with petrol and talk to me and then go and take the money, go and get me the change. And, you know, how's the family? You know, it doesn't happen now. We don't have that contact with each other. And because we made to have that contact with each other, deep down, we are very, very deeply connected. We're suffering. Now, Norwich City are your team. They are in the championship at the moment. Yeah. Not doing that well. No. And you have I think you have a must win game this weekend, don't you?

47:47Because you're playing Watford. Yes. I mean, they're all must wins. Yeah. But this one really is. I've looked at the table. I mean, you really do need to win this. Yeah, we do need to win it. But I've been there before. Yeah, I know you have. And I wonder, because of what you've been through with the football, how you feel about Manchester City? Because for a lot of people, it really does feel like something has got to happen to put a marker down to stop the way they've carried on ever happening again. I mean, I agree with you. But if we're talking about Man City as a football club, and I've been to Man City for years.

48:23I used to go to Main Road and it's a lovely football club. The supporters are wonderful and it's nothing to do with them. It's just to do with owners and the way they've conducted themselves. And I don't know what the truth is, but I hope they get to the truth of it and I hope that it may do some good. Well, I mean, they've been found guilty. They are appealing, so we'll see. But it's not a very good situation for the Premier League to be rumbling on with a team who are doing pretty well. I know they lost at the weekend. If they end up winning the whole thing, it's a complete fandango, isn't it?

49:02Yes, it is. But then the top six have always been a complete fandango. I mean, it's usually the money that gets the top six. So really, I actually enjoy the championship because it's more competitive. You know, I do think the football, the Premier League is not, you know, the promised land for me. I love going to a football match on a Saturday and I like the championship because it's more competitive. Now, you were always photographed at the football with your husband, Michael. Yeah. And he, I'm surprised, in a way, Delia, I'm surprised that you're here because he has died very recently. Yes. And you were together for 55 years.

49:41Yes. How are you? Well, I knew that it was going to be difficult, but the way I describe it is I have to day by day wait for it to unfold. I don't know how it's unfolding completely, but it is unfolding. And I have this wonderful privilege of being totally unable to believe a beautiful human life can cease to exist. So that is my belief. And I think that does help. So your faith is a huge factor here, is it? It's just, no, it's not faith. It's just believing in human life and believing. It can't just cease to exist. And I do believe there's more to us than, I think, beyond death. Then our earthly time is one experience, but there might be something more.

50:40I'm sure there is, yeah. But, I mean, that doesn't make it easier, you know, but it does, it means I'm at peace about it. And I think that's helping me is that I'm at peace about it. I'm not raging about it. You're not, no. Yes, I wonder, how do you want to be helped through this part of your life? The way I have been. Right. Because I've had, I can't, unbelievable, masses and masses of messages and cards from people that I haven't seen for years. And it's all it's doing is affirming my belief in human life. You know, there is this connection. And here am I with all these amazing people thinking about me, caring about me.

51:30That's what human life is. And I'm overwhelmed by it and very much helped by it. And you'll carry on going to the football. There's no question of you stopping all the things you used to do together. No, no. The only thing I do is I sit on his chair at home at the table and in the in the city room and everywhere because I think I haven't got a look at his empty chair. I hadn't thought about that. So if you're sitting in it, you're not thinking about it being empty. I think I think that will resonate with a lot of people. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, do you think that we need to talk more about about grief and loss?

52:06Grief and loss and, you know, the whole panorama of human life of what it is. And the encyclical of Pope Leo. And it irritates me that they give it a Latin title. What would you like it to be called? I mean, how do you communicate with people? You write something, give it a Latin title. But what he's saying is magnificent human life. OK, he's analysing AI like no one else has. He's got to the absolute bottom of AI. But along with it, he's saying that human beings are, you know, noble citizens of the universe and they're magnificent. Human life is magnificent. And we mustn't let artificial human life for a moment take it away.

53:04So can I ask, do you use AI? No. That's deliberate. I wouldn't know how. Have you got a smartphone? Yes, I've got a phone, but I'm having great trouble without Michael using the television. Oh, dear. Was he your technical expert? Oh, God, yeah, it's terrible. So I was just thinking last night, I only had in the fridge some shallots and some leeks. Oh, yeah. So I sort of ham-fistedly made a pasta sauce. Yes. I mean, it was all right. Why not? Well, it was all right, Delia. It wasn't great. And you didn't want to throw them away. I didn't want to throw them away. No, I wouldn't do that. But I just went on my phone and looked, you know, Googled, leek and shallots, what could I do?

53:45And it came up with this. Is that all right? Yes. I think it's fantastic. I think AI is fantastic if it's in the right hands and it's used to serve humanity, not to eliminate humanity. But I also think the same about technology. It's there to serve us. It's all right for us to have technology, but it's not right for technology to have us. That's a very good point. Your cookbooks, as we established at the beginning, have sold not 22 ,000 copies, but 22 million. It's the one that resonated with me and I'll never forget it is the baked mushroom risotto. Was that the one? Yeah, oven baked. Oven baked mushroom risotto.

54:31I mean, I'm not being funny, but every house I went to at a certain period of my life, that's what I was served up. Yeah. Well, you know, I get into trouble with purists telling me you can't make risotto in the oven. You can't possibly. But, but it's a fiddle. Doing it in the right way is an absolute fiddle. And you've got to keep jumping up and down and stirring, jumping up and down. And so I just thought, well, you can make a rice pudding in the oven. Why can't you make a risotto in the oven? And I just tried it and it worked. Well, you are Wonder Woman, truly, to so many of us. We've got some lovely messages for you just coming in here.

55:09Oh, good. I would like Delia to meet Donald Trump. So would I. And actually, football fans are getting in touch as well. But a couple of people have said they've got championship teams that they're following. and they privately agree with you that they don't necessarily want to get promoted but they'd rather you didn't say it out loud. Okay. Let's scrub that for the interview. Yes, Delia, thank you. Thank you so much for coming in. It's been lovely. And you take care of yourself and I know that a lot of people wish you very, very well, as you know. Thank you. Delia, Delia Smith, and her book is Us, Nine Ingredients to Change Our World.

55:46Now, Fee will be back next week. We obviously hope we're going to get a new, well I was going to say I mean cleansed what are we what is these places aiming at? A reboot? I don't know I guess you'll tell us I've never been to one have you? God no this one sounds quite extreme yeah there's no podcast tomorrow or Thursday for various reasons well the budget the budget we don't have enough money to pay Jane our budget hang on don't get controversial he's in Germany It's just not true. There's loads of money to pay me. Oh, God, no. I mean, not loads. Right. Have a good couple of days and we will all reconvene on Monday.

56:29It's Jane and Fee at Times.Radio.

56:47congratulations you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with jane and fee thank you if you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day monday to thursday two till four on times radio the jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case so you can get the radio online on dab or on the free times radio app off air is produced by eve salisbury and the executive producer is rosie cutler

57:29you