Madonna, you're alright, love (with Iain Dale)

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2:33Are we on? When we were off school, hello, everybody. Hello. When we were off school ill in secondary school, the day that we were back, we used to have to, at the end of assembly, anyone who had been absent the day before had to walk up on stage and hand an absent note to the headmistress. It was so bizarre. It was very conspicuous. Well, it was quite shaming. It was quite a shaming thing to do. It was very weird, Jane. What would be the MO behind that? I don't know. Apart from making you feel really bad, you've been away. Presumably the temptation to do a cough when you're on the... Or stagger a bit.

3:08Yes. Drag your leg behind you or something. It would be irresistible. I don't know what the MO was. No, it was very strange. It was to shame you into basically not being off. Yeah, and also, of course, it was only for day girls. It was a boarding school, but it was only day girls who were... I don't think if you'd spend a day in the sand, I don't think you had to do the same thing. My memory's not particularly clear on that. It's not particularly clear about a lot of stuff. No, it isn't. The sand, just to explain, that's the sanatorium. Okay, I mean, presumably, as a day girl, were you ever allowed to bear witness?

3:46Did you go inside? No, occasionally I went to visit sick boarding friends. Well, that's what I meant, yeah. But otherwise, no, you either struggled home yourself or somebody would come pick you up if you were a day girl and you were unwell. Oh, right. We did have, we had, well, it was a completely windowless cupboard that was the sick bay. And to be honest, just a mere glance inside it, you didn't feel well. So it wasn't really worth, you didn't want to linger there, that's for sure. No. Just a camp bed and a bucket. no way to spend your time but actually happy days because so many schools don't have a matron at all anymore and actually matron was fantastic, if you had a good matron matron was fantastic, matron was your mate very much so I remember in primary school matron had strepsils and we weren't allowed sweets at all strepsils?

4:39we developed quite a good routine in walking up the stairs so by the time we got to matron store should hand out a sweet. I tell you what, you were living austerity before the Tories came up with it, weren't you? Bloody hell, didn't have sweets. We'll look forward to a strepsel. Do you hear about this, Eve? Puts hairs on your chest, doesn't it? It's just that my mum was just fierce about sugar. Really, really fierce about sugar and television. I don't know, sweets, or do you? Look what happened. And it's worked a treat. You've completely steered clear of the media. You've had nothing to do... You've had nothing to do with sugar.

5:16Right, brilliant. Yeah, I've lived an absolutely abstemious life, Jane, as you know. Yes, indeed. Now, how was your holiday? Because I haven't seen you for ages. Gosh, we've had such a bumpy ride, haven't we? Well, only bumpy in the sense that we both went away. I mean, it's not like your childhood. It wasn't as bad as that. No, I went to Greece and you've been, and I'm really interested in hearing about it because it's a country that has long fascinated me. You've been to Norway. I have been to Norway. So tell us, because you were there at the time, and it's lovely to have you back, actually.

5:48Everybody would be very... Let's just hear from Eve just to prove that she does still exist. She is here. I'm here as well, but I really don't think anyone needs to hear from me. Oh, don't. Nonsense, darling. I tell you what, you couldn't open my coffee. I'll give it a go. All right, shut up, Eve. Let's hear about Norway, because you were there when the king died. I know, Jane. It was incredible. So tell us how all that unfolded. Well, it's very difficult to undo, isn't it? I think it's lost its thread at the top. I feel like it's come away from... Yeah, I think it might. I don't know what to do about that.

6:22Yeah, it's very difficult. Well, the late King Harold didn't die in vain. Let's actually hear about it. Because most of us... Sorry. I mean, I'll be absolutely frank with you. I wasn't aware that the king existed until he... Unfortunately, really, until he was very close to not existing, which is when I started to read stories about him. That surprises me because as our in-situ Daily Mail correspondent, I imagined you'd know an awful lot about King Harold because the Norwegian royal family has been beset by stories. Oh, no, you're right. I did know about the troubles. Yes, and actually really, really bad things.

7:04Quite unpleasant things, yes. I stand corrected. But King Harald, I believe, and this was what we gleaned from being in Norway when he died, was a really, really loved monarch. So on the morning that he died, and we knew that he had been in hospital, because it was front page of all of the newspapers all over the place, and we all got pings on our phones saying, you know, the news has just come in very early in the morning, and we were due to go into Oslo anyway, so we carried on, did our normal stuff. But do you know what? There are many, many things about Oslo that I just found beguiling and bewitching.

7:40What a beautiful, beautiful city. One tiny detail is that their public transport is good and everybody takes it. So the great and the good take the bus as well as anybody else who in this country, you know, our buses tend to be full of people who would struggle to be able to afford the other forms of public transport. so, you know, make of that what you will. We were on the bus into Oslo and there were people already in their morning gear. Gosh, on the bus? In suits, yeah, to go and pay their respects at the palace. Black tie? Yes, very much so. All carrying flowers and it was an extraordinary feeling.

8:20There was, I think, a 12-gun salute at midday which was the cannons going out across the bay which was remarkable as well. And loads of flags flying at half-mast. there were lots and lots of kids who were, I mean, I presume it was still school holidays when we were there. There were lots of kids who were heading towards the palace as well. And you just had this feeling because Oslo is a very small city. How big is it? Well, it's only about 750 ,000 people. So it is very small. So you can really feel what's happening in one part of the city when you're in the other. And also the palace is in the, you know, pretty much the heart of the city too.

8:58So it was really extraordinary, Jane. and people just had such lovely things to say about him. And obviously, I'm not a world expert on King Harold, but even people with a Republican bent seem to acknowledge that he as a person was a mighty fine thing. And he did step over what we see in this country as a very, very firm line where the monarch doesn't comment on politics or the business of the day. He stepped over that line. And Norway has had horrendous difficulties with, it's had violent reaction to immigration. So they had a terrible massacre in 2011 involving lots of children. I mean, just an absolutely horrendous, horrendous thing to happen.

9:46Yes, that was horrific. Yes, yeah. And, you know, they have had pressure from the far right in Norway. And he stepped over that political line and said, and actually I just want to get the quote exactly right for you, because I don't want to do him a disservice. In 2016, making a speech marking 25 years on the throne, he hailed his country's growing diversity. It's not always easy to say where we come from, which nationality we have. The place we call home is where our heart is and that can't always be placed within a country's boundaries. I mean, it's a pretty, you know, but I don't think there's, I don't think you can be any clearer, actually, about how welcome he wanted Norway to be towards all of its new incoming residents as well.

10:32So it was extraordinary, Jane. It was a really remarkable thing to be a little bit part of. It's a very wealthy country as well, isn't it? It's very wealthy. It's very expensive. So, you know, it's got its incredible assets. It's still drilling. And there have been quite a few comparisons, I know, this week in this country because we're having a continued discussion about the North Sea drilling. so it still drills but it's also got incredible renewables and a dedication to them and it's a very expensive country to live in so a price of a meal for a couple of people oh lord okay well i can probably do do it better in a supermarket shop right so there were five of us on our holiday we did a very very basic supermarket shop just for one meal which was pizza bases pizza toppings and some non-alcoholic beer, so nothing expensive at all.

11:27A couple of cinnamon buns thrown in there for the next day,£144. Oh, blimey. Right, OK. So, not a bargain break. No. But a fascinating place to be. No. And, you know, we definitely embrace the nature, not least because we couldn't go out and eat all the time. You just had to... You'll be taking a sandwich. Yes, you will. Have this day-old bun and a strepsel. Well, we do. We made the cinnamon buns last four days. Okay, right. Because they're very firm things and covered in sugar. So actually by day four you could toast them and they were still perfectly adequate. You could dunk them like those kind of hard biscuits.

12:09Your mum, if she'd known you were eating sugary buns in Oslo, she'd have been absolutely horrified. I know. I hope she doesn't find out. Can I just say, though, that there's something very, very magical about Norway. We stayed in an Airbnb, so there are ways of doing it where, you know, you won't break the bank. And you are outdoors all the time. The bus costs£3 to go into the centre of Oslo. Flat rate. Yes. You buy a single ticket. It's so sensible. You buy a single ticket for an hour. So you can hop off the bus and onto the tram and get wherever you want to. But only in an hour? In an hour. No, but that's really sensible.

12:44We do our... So I have to take two different... I should really take a bus and then two tubes to work. That would be the sensible thing to do. I would have to pay each step of the way for that. Why not just have a single ticket? Because it's a single journey. It's not my fault I'd have to get off and transfer across the tube network. You choose to work here. Just wait until you're 60. And wait until nine o 'clock and, you know, it's brilliant. That's true. Final thought about it as well. People have such a respect for their landscape. so there's just no litter there's no litter jane i like that there's no litter and we swam in the fjord every morning uh you know just off uh you know these concrete things that have been built and you just dive in and everybody's there young and old uh we were there at about kind of 10 30 one morning it was a not particularly warm day uh but a couple of painters and decorators had clearly done a shift already that day they just came down they just got in the water in their pants had a swim around dried off went back goodness me painters and decorators and their pants if you want to see trades people don't access head to norway as soon as i embarked on that story i thought that's gonna come out wrong right well look no you've you've sold it and um i'm such a nerd but the temperature would be what 23, 24, any higher?

14:10No, it was no higher than that. It was so nice. It was really, really, really, really lovely. Very nice. Yes. Yeah. So, we went to the Nobel Peace Prize Museum. I brought you a small gift. Yes. From the Nobel Peace Centre, I have a fridge magnet. And actually, no fridge magnet is wasted on me. I have got so many on my fridge. Where else would I put them? Proud fridge owner, Shane Garvey. This is a lovely photograph of Willy Brandt. Nobel Peace Prize laureate, 1971, of course. Of course. Everybody knew. Radio 4. Everyone knew when Willy Brandt won the Nobel Peace Prize. And a quote from him, it often takes more courage to change one's opinion than to keep it.

14:54I saw that and thought of you. Now, I have been accused of changing my mind on a few things. I just like to consider myself a flexible friend. Someone who moves with the times. Okay, and sometimes just outright contradicts themselves. But whatever. I own it. Yes. Thank you. That's quite all right. I haven't got you a present. Okay, thank you. That's very kind of you. What would you have brought? There must have been some nice fridge magnets in Greece. Well, there were. I could have got you a Kevalonia one, but I've got one for myself. No, I always think there's something very weird about having a fridge magnet or a snow globe from somewhere you haven't been to yourself.

15:31Oh, you shouldn't do that. That's quite wrong. Yes, I think that's devious, actually. Devious. Well, people will now think I've visited the Nobel Peace Centre. Yeah, but it's not very, I mean, it doesn't go, you know, it's not saying Oslo to you, is it? No. It's just saying very thoughtful. While you were away, I did go to the Anish Kapoor at the Hayward Gallery, and I do have one of those fridge magnets. Lovely. What's on an Anish Kapoor fridge magnet? One of his works of art. Can you describe it? No, I can't. It wasn't the big pile of entrails that people were warned about. OK. Because I don't think you'd want that as a fridge magnet.

16:10Especially not when you open the fridge. What was the one that he did at the Tate Modern? A big trumpet. A big trumpet. Well, but this wasn't the big trumpet. There were some quite serious warnings. And look, I do know that some people are squeamish. I get that. There were some warnings outside this exhibition at the Hayward Gallery about the bloody entrails and stuff. But, I mean, without being unpleasant, I mean, if you've had a period, which I have, obviously not for a while, that kind of thing isn't that disturbing. How big? It's quite big. Yeah, but, I mean, you know, we've all seen blood.

16:47For God's sake, get over it. That's what I say. I know what you mean. Yeah, I just seem a little bit over the top. But everything has to have a warning. Oh, yes. Have you seen Second Life, Tracy Emmons' exhibition? I haven't, no. Which, I think it's finished now. Oh, has it? Yes, it was on at the Tate Modern for the last couple of months. So that had a lot of warnings in it because she's very visceral in her art about what her abortion did to her sense of herself, her life and therefore her art. And actually that was an exhibition where I thought, yes, it is good to be warned about this. Yes, okay.

17:24I can see that that probably would be necessary. And there were people who were so deeply affected by what they'd seen. There were a couple of young women who must only have been about 25 or 26. They'd gone through about half of the exhibition. And some of it is Tracy Emin actually speaking to the camera about what she felt the abortion had done to her. And it completely revolutionised her sense of art and herself. and she said I just can't be anything other than my emotional state now in my art. So it's very, very powerful stuff. And there were two girls, they were just lying down on the floor.

18:01They were just completely overcome by what they'd seen. Well, I'm not knocking that. I have obviously no idea because I haven't seen it. No, but sometimes I think it is good to be warned. Yes, I think that's interesting. And do you know what? I've already come close to changing my mind since the gift of the fridge magnet. Wish we'd never started this now. anyway it's good to be back now we just need to say first of all we've got to nail this flipping scam thing oh my goodness so yes such a pain so let's just do it again so this time so they've done you for months haven't they this is somebody who sends two authors an email saying I'm Jane Garvey and that's me I'm Fee Glover I've read your book I think it's fascinating it's fascinating for all of these reasons so it's quite a kind of in detail, in-depth explanation of our shared curiosity about books.

18:56Would you like to come on Times Radio? And then the follow-up email will be, you need to pay us administrative costs. And it's a really weird sum of money, isn't it? It's a strange sum. I think it's about$312 or something. Yeah, which is a lot. Also, it's a lot. But why pick that? It's such a strange sum if it was 100 quid. I'm not saying I'd agree with it, but I can make a kind of sense. Obviously, we don't operate in dollars, but much more importantly, it's not us. We would never do this. We can't do it. We're never, ever, ever going to ask people to pay money to talk about their book on the podcast.

19:34Nope. It's just not a thing. So if you know anyone who's had one of these emails, if you've had one yourselves, it's just nonsense. It's a scam. Ignore it. Yes. The latest one comes in from Justin Beal, one of several people who had received these things. He had been asked for£125 covering the production preparation and author spotlight materials outlined above. I mean, it's quite the thing, isn't it? It says as part of the feature you'll receive, and we should note this, okay, because we're not necessarily providing these things at the moment. This is what apparently you'll get. Professional interview production and recording.

20:13What? questions researched specifically around you and your book no chance a professionally designed author spotlight image featuring you and your book a polished interview feature prepared for presentation a copy of the completed interview material for your records and permitted future use we don't provide any of that absolutely not so so i think you know justin was wise to it when you got to that part of the email. But yeah, do you know what really shocked me was the fact that your name had been used a good couple of months ago, hadn't it? Yeah, a couple of years ago, I think now. Okay, so it's still going on and on and on.

20:51You highlighted it here and back on the BBC. To be fair to the redoubtable consumer show, You and Yours, and some other, they do a spin-off podcast about scams. They've both done it, both owned it, both said this shouldn't be happening, don't fall for it and still it is happening it's really annoying it is very annoying it is very annoying and because of course you and i will never know the people who have been goaded into parting with their money because apart from anything else i bet people who have been and there will be some people they'll just be too embarrassed to say i fell for this so uh please spread the word and know we would never ever charge uh you for our services obviously you charge uncle rupert but that's between us and roops yes it is um we've been talking over the last couple of weeks and in fact there was an article i don't know if you saw it on thetimes.com over the weekend or late last week from a young woman who'd applied for over 100 jobs and she it was a very well-read article it's one of those articles a lot of people are connected with lots of comments underneath almost all of them really sympathetic and supportive and just saying, look, this is not an easy time.

22:01We really feel for this generation. So I just wanted to mention this email from a listener called V. I just wanted to comment on the recruitment of young people. I carry out repeat recruitment for entry-level seasonal positions that suit young people and recent graduates. As these are public sector-aligned posts, we have to use an online recruitment system, no CVs. There are instructions on how to complete the application, phone numbers for advice etc but the number of applicants who make no reference to the required skills and experience asked for in the skill criteria means that at scoring stage many applications are simply rejected if there is a skills specification please advise people to address this in order bullet points are fine to demonstrate how they meet the requirements those of us recruiting will love you for it and are able to favorably score your applications often out of a field of 150 applicants i can only take six to interview due to the lack of information in the applications as i have to be able to demonstrate why person a made the interview but not person b so i hope that just helps some people sometimes young people have a slightly and I'm not criticising them, a slightly scattergun approach and just throw in a load of applications because I appreciate it's really hard at the moment.

23:26It is always worth just reading the small print. It's boring, I know, but just make sure you are offering or are able to offer what is specifically being asked for because otherwise you will be wasting your time. Yes. And you won't hear much back or you probably won't hear anything. And I think we do need to spare quite a bit of thought for the people who are going through all of these applications because actually if you've advertised a entry-level job you may not be expecting to have to devote a lot of your time to thousands of application forms that come in and it must be very difficult to feel i think it is yeah that you know that you're getting it right and sifting out the the right people or the wrong people so yes and try not and it's easy for us to say don't try not to take it personally if you do get a load of rejections oh it's so easy for us to say yes it would be really really hard yes absolutely um dolly parton now um that was sad wasn't it that was do you know what i was only thinking over the weekend that i've covered any number of celebrity deaths so-called over the years but honestly the reaction to her dying last week even from some of our more carpy listeners shall we say, was overwhelmingly, oh, that's sad.

24:43I hadn't realised how much good work she'd done. What, even Mike? Well, not necessarily Mike. No, I didn't mention Mike by name. Although I don't think we heard from Mike. So maybe he was just silenced. Because I think in truth, even if you're not a big country person, lots of people don't like country music, although young people absolutely love country music right now. It's having a huge resurgence. um no the reaction was from a lot of people was oh gosh well i you know i didn't really play her music but gosh i didn't know she'd done that literacy campaign i didn't know she'd given moderna a million dollars or whatever it was i just didn't know that about her um and she genuinely does seem to be that rare thing uh a showbiz entity who was actually so so much more than her incredible talent i think her life story on on so many levels jane is just remarkable i I mean, she was one of so many siblings.

25:37The younger three, she raised herself with her husband, Carl, when they realised that they weren't going to have children of their own. I mean, that's kind of passed over in a couple of sentences in the obituaries. It's just like, wow. No, that is a remarkable thing to do. And actually, we too often say, oh, she didn't have children. Well, that's not really true, is it? Just what I was about to say. You know, she had had that caring role in a childhood that probably didn't give her a huge amount of care. I mean, she was one of eight, wasn't she? She was one of 12. I think it was 12. Yeah. So I just think so many things about her are remarkable.

26:15And would you agree that she's one of those people who managed to evoke a really, really personal reaction in people? And there aren't very many, especially female singers, who managed to do that. So we might really, really love elements of Madonna's work and catalogue and stuff, but that personal connection, I don't really feel it for Madonna. I'm sure some people do. I think people do feel it for Taylor Swift. I think they do feel it for Kylie Minogue. I think they definitely feel it for Dolly Parton. What is it? Was it a kind of vulnerability? Because I don't think Madonna has made herself vulnerable.

26:57Do you think she's just got a bit more metal between her and us? I'm not saying Madonna's far from talentless I wouldn't say Madonna, that must come as a relief to you to hear that from me no lesser person than me I've got a bronze medal for life saving

27:15but there's just something about her that isn't as appealing she hasn't made herself appealing in that way she's obviously chosen not to I'm not saying that Dolly made herself necessary I don't know, there was a She reached out, she managed to reach Funny. That's the thing. She was funny and Madonna's not funny. No. Is she? Is Madonna funny? I can't name you a Madonna gag. I just haven't spent much time in her company to know. I've never heard Madonna make a joke. She might be a right old wisecracker. Do you know what? I bet she's got a potty mouth. She's probably got a potty mouth, but that doesn't necessarily make you funny.

27:53Anyway, from now on we'll be able to fly into Dolly Parton and that's something that I might think about doing. Yeah, why not? Yeah, why not? So no, it was very sad. I completely agree. Completely agree. So she had also done, I think, the decent thing where she had stopped performing when she believed that she couldn't perform to the best of her ability. And there are some ageing rockers. I was going to say, I don't think you think of any podcasters who might want to draw a line under there. No. No, we had a terrible email from a lady who dreamt you'd resigned. Dreamt what? That you'd resigned.

28:26Oh, I haven't seen that one. No, I haven't resigned. Where is it? I'll get to it in a second. I did like this email from Jen. Your listener's story about the unfortunately placed pregnancy tests at the supermarket reminded me of a time when heavily pregnant looking for the women's antenatal health products in boots. I located these items in an aisle cheerfully labelled treats for mum. The treats included folic acid, gaviscon, lanolin nipple cream and absolutely enormous maternity sanitary pads. There we go. Give your mum a treat. Get her some nipple cream and one of those enormous house brick sanitary pads.

29:03She'll love you forever. Absolutely priceless. Can I also just say, nipple cream, you don't need it. You will have something in your bathroom cabinet. Don't fall for it. Actually, I was going to ask, what is nipple cream supposed to do? Well, lots of women have cracked nipples, don't they, after they've been breastfeeding for quite some time. Sorry about this, Eve. We're back to our usual form. but you know I just think sometimes they're taking the mick aren't they asking you to buy lots of new things that you don't necessarily need the thing that never worked for me was the alleged colic medication doesn't stop colic no no I think we were lucky neither of mine really had colic we had other things Jane don't feel that we escaped at all I think I've still got a jar of pseudochrome from those early years oh pseudochrome now that it never goes no but that's good stuff oh it's really good stuff yes you can use that in just about anything.

29:57Yep. And I have. Me too. On a nice bit of toast. No, not on toast. No, but I have used it for some squeaky hinges and it works an absolute treat. House still for sale. Still available. I thought you were rethinking that entire... No, we might. It might go.

30:20It's not haunted. It's not infested. no but have you been talking about infestations I love opening the email inbox oh was it about weevils no no we had somebody who was really suffering with weevils but no not me for once it's not me can I do weevils in from Tessa I just wanted to reassure your lovely listener about the weevils in their dry goods because yes indeed that is what they are we don't usually need to worry about them in the UK because sadly our weather is too chilly that's going to change isn't it We lived on a boat for two years in the Caribbean, though, and weevils were a daily consideration.

30:59They lay their eggs in all of the grains and dry goods that we eat, and when it gets lovely and hot and humid, they hatch and grow into the little black creepy crawlies that you see in your flour, rice, cereal and pasta. At first, I was so unbelievably grossed out. We threw everything away, but after a while, you kind of get used to the odd little black floaty thing in the rice, just a little extra protein. After a while, we learned that the best way to mitigate them was to put any new bags of flour, cereal, pasta, etc. in the freezer for 48 hours and that kills the weevil eggs. God, it's quite an effort though, isn't it?

31:31It is. And I'm just putting my hand up here, Tessa, to ask a follow-on question. So that kills the weevil eggs, but you are still eating them, aren't you? And that makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable. And is that just me being a bit too pressy? Look at Eve's face. Look at Eve's little face. You're feeling sorry for the thing. It's like because you're a vegetarian. Eve wouldn't want to eat them. But then again, I do need the extra protein. Yes. You look healthy enough, I wouldn't worry too much. I sometimes think that when I go on runs and swallow lots of flies. Yes. Right. Laughs at her own joke and goes off.

32:04Yes. Maybe close your mouth. When you run into like some kind of a basking shark.

32:14Oh dear, I'm so sorry. Has it been a difficult week? After a while, we learned that the best way to mitigate them was, No, I've done that bit. Hang on, hang on. We would also get rid of any cardboard before it came on the boat because much more disgusting are cockroaches which lay their eggs in cardboard and hatch in similar conditions. You see, this is what happens when you go and live in the Caribbean. Now it's getting colder, I don't think your listener will have anything to worry about. They don't carry any diseases, they don't bite or itch, but I totally understand not wanting to serve them up to guests.

32:47We're not guests. It's all right if it's just the family. But honestly, no, you really don't want to serve guests. Apropos of nothing, I've been a bit viral over the last couple of days. Yes. Yes, I was in the house and I was not really doing very much. So I was, it's so predictable, by the way, that I was poorly over the bank holiday weekend. I'm so sorry, Jane. But perfectly all right to come to work today. Yeah, that's annoying, isn't it? It's just frustrating. You know, back in our old place of work, there were people who would, because you are legally entitled if you're, not for us because we're effectively freelance, but if you're on a contract and you've been ill during your time away, you can ask them.

33:29You can't claim it, can you? Yes, you can claim it. And there were people who claimed that I had two days during my holiday where I had a cold. You're joking. How do you retrospectively, how do you prove that? You just go and tell your line manager. Anyway, while I was lying poorly in my homestead over the last couple of days, I became very exercised by Lake Ontario and the name changed to Lake. Oh, Trump. You're such an arsehole. Just cock off. Yeah, so I decided, because Google, you know, Google changed it. Yes. So I actually found myself Googling. This is why we are so up our own fundament on planet Earth in 2026.

34:08I Googled, Google, why are you so supine in the face of Donald Trump? And Google actually replied. came up with a whole list of reasons why they'd just done his bidding and i thought what a strange what a strange set of circumstances i found myself in well it's a very it's a very good idea to send it back to them because then that all goes into the strange kind of ecosystem of artificial intelligence replies i should have actually brought it with me but it's worth doing if you have a spare look you probably have to be as bored as i was at the time i did it but But do do it and just have a look at what it comes up with.

34:47It's quite interesting. It comes up with a list of reasons why they just didn't have any option. Well, quite a lot of people commented on the fact that the Google spokesperson sounded very tired. You know, yet another, we're going to have to say all this stuff, which I don't think they're convinced by either. But it's so pathetic. It is utterly pathetic. Beyond pathetic. And also, if you were flying over Lake Ontario, When you were in America, it would tell you you're flying over Lake America and then by the time you got to the other side of the lake, it would tell you you'd flown over Lake Ontario.

35:22So for heaven's sake, you're advertising how stupid you are. Yeah, you absolutely are. Yeah, I like Mark Carney, I like what he's doing and I like the Canadian response to all of this. I mean, the two-story high, this is Lake Ontario, always has been, always will be, is great. It is great. Yes, more power to him. Shall we talk about big breakfasts? Yes. This is from Belinda from the Bath Environs, she says. Dear Jane, Fee, Eve and Hannah from Huddersfield, not Hartlepool, or possibly the other way around. Hannah is from Huddersfield, isn't she? Not Hartlepool. That was my bad the other day and I have apologised.

36:01I'm doing it again. I've been meaning to email for years and I've got as far as drafting a couple and then just wimping out. However, today I've plucked up the courage inspired by Jane's most recent breakfast reminiscences and an experience we had a few weeks ago in a damp, cool and green, in fact, heavenly west coast of Scotland. Near Oban is a bridge known locally as the Bridge Over the Atlantic, connecting the mainland to the island of Seal. Now, on the island side is a famous pub and behind the famous pub is a newish butcher's called Rock's Fine Foods. Aside from the wonderful local venison and beef, one can procure something called a breakfast pack.

36:41I challenge you, she says, not to be impressed by this. It contains haggis, sausages times six, bacon times six, lawn sausage times six, eggs times six, black pudding, white pudding and fruit pudding. I'd never heard of fruit pudding before. Our foodie friends had to get it. The butcher described it as containing citrus and raisins and enthused about it as a palate cleanser. Listeners, we bought the breakfast pack, cooked it and served it to six game volunteers. the results were shall we say filling i think somebody mentioned the meat sweats fruit pudding which i suppose is an echo of the original minced meat recipe was not the triumph that the enthusiastic butcher had promised one of our number swapped mine for his haggis which impressed me however he then reneged and tried to get the haggis back photo attached need i say more i mean That is a lot of meat.

37:37It's so much meat. It's a lot of meat. It is. Now, I can't remember... I'm hugely impressed by the quantity there. When we were in North Berwick, and you did have the full Scottish breakfast, did you have haggis with that? There was a bit of haggis with it from memory, yes. I don't dislike it. I love a haggis. I love a haggis. Do you? Yes. All peppery and bready. That's what I like about it. A vegetarian haggis, I think, is just as good as a meaty one. You're the woman who outed herself only half an hour ago as being someone who used to look forward to a strepsel, so I'm not really sure how much credit we can give you.

38:12Well, you know, times were different then. They certainly were. Things were so much lechery up north. They used to have Sherbet fountains and everything. So, no, we had Sherbet div-davs too, but we just weren't allowed to have sweets at home. I'm sorry. I'm sorry mum if you're listening well we know she doesn't listen no she doesn't she doesn't listen to me I hope I'm not dubbing Silleran too much here but she does have Times Radio on in the house she doesn't listen to us in the afternoons she's busy fair enough but she did because they put out some other podcasts not ours interestingly but they put out some other podcasts in the wee smaller house of the morning when mum is a little bit insomniac she will come across other people's podcasts and she did ask me if I could find other podcasts for her that she'd be able to listen to but at no point did she say and it came up on the screen I said have you got this one no I don't listen alright you listen to the journalist and the gentleman see how you get on with that it was apparently a very good episode about Pete Hegseth and why he's wrong about his ridiculous testosterone tests oh my god what's going on there Jane Do you know what?

39:28I don't think, is it unreasonable to point out that Pete Hegsworth might not be an especially erudite gentleman? I mean, I think he's as mad as a bloody... Anyway. Well, there is this email that was circulated in the public domain written by his mother. Oh, yes, I've seen that. She doesn't like him either. No, she's got some things to say about him too. Yes, the testosterone test that was a suggestion from him that members of the armed forces in America might have to undergo this is just so bizarre as a basic misunderstanding about what it is that hormones are there for and do and also just why would you want your army to be fueled only by that it just shows such a basic misunderstanding of what an army is for i mean it's just terrible it's just like okay so you just want people who get up in the morning and they're deranged with their own aggression i mean you're just a pathetic absolutely pathetic excuse for a man that is not what makes men men no it's just not jane no but i mean i did read something terrifying over the weekend in my sweaty stupor that there was a possibility of him running for president oh god okay no we're all going to have to go to norway if that happens and just batten down the hatches and hope that the norwegians welcome us i think we could afford to no that's very true let's start saving now yep they apparently they because we did have quite a few discussions about how you could live in a country like that if you know you weren't particularly wealthy yourself and i believe that the reason why you can is because the very high taxes which people are are distributed really well in education and health and transport so other parts of your life if you're not earning as much money taken care of yes and it did feel that way but who knows because obviously we were only there for a week.

41:21I'm not an expert, nor am I Norwegian. No, well, paging Norway. Do let us know. Yes, it would be lovely to hear from people who have moved there or who live there. Full stop. Shall I just do a final AI madness? Because this is quite funny. So this is just proof that they're not getting everything right, are they? It comes in from Sarah, who says, love the show, Steve, and we do like that tribute. Do you know, I was only thinking yesterday, I could have done with a Steve Wright in the afternoon on Bank Holiday Monday. Yeah, it would have been good. do do do do do just that theme at the beginning exactly it just perked you up didn't it you have the big show well that I was really lacking yesterday because I was fit for nothing what did you listen to?

42:01well I'm still reading the Cassoulet Chronicles or as several listeners Cassoulet Cassoulet Chronicles so that was actually perfect for yesterday afternoon excellent I'm only halfway through the second one so I've got lots of delicious Cassoulet fun to catch up with Just as a book recommendation, I just got completely stuck on Peter Granger's books. I haven't managed to move away from them at all. I'm on my sixth. Are you? I know people absolutely love them. I still haven't read one, but I will get round to it. I think if you liked Susie Steiner and if you like William Boyd, I mean, he's just a superb writer.

42:38So this is crime fiction. But not bloody, ghastly, violent. No, it's not bloody, ghastly. and it doesn't focus on women being afraid as well, which is just such a massive, massive theme in so many other writers and women writers just as much as male crime writers. So it's very, very thoughtful. It's beautiful characterisations. It's set in Norfolk. It's just clever. It's clever and thoughtful. And it does that thing that really good crime fiction does where it just delivers other messages so carefully and lightly. just about class and about education and about poverty, communities working together.

43:22It's just beautiful and I can't stop reading them. And because I know that there are 20. Yeah. And I started at the beginning. And he's a lovely man, Robert Partridge. I just can't get out of them. So 14. Why did he change his name from Robert Partridge to... Well, he was an English teacher. Ah, okay. Yeah, and I suspect that he just needed to be somebody else when he was writing. In a relatively small community, I think if you're going to self-publish your stuff and you're a teacher, it's probably quite wise to have a non-deplume. Oh, I certainly thought about that. Yeah, okay, it makes sense.

43:56But they are just terrific, I think. I think that they would tickle the fancy of many of our listeners. You're really safe when you're in those books. And, you know, I just, as we've talked about before, I can't do those crime books anymore, or novels where the turn of the page might bring you a twist that is so gruesome and horrible yeah yeah can't do it actually i mean it is very much back to school time there was that definite mood on the tube this morning a lot of grumpy faces i noticed it's almost as though everyone's back in the routine first of september it's come round you can't dodge reality so to our teaching listeners let's hope this is because it's a long old slog up to christmas isn't it it is yeah best of luck hope you get some good students.

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47:01that's code giggly at opill.com birth control in your control we love to see it uh do you think we ought to head towards a guest do we get yes we got a guest haven't we we're very very reluctant guest it is it's sometimes very difficult to get people to come on and talk about their wares but we we have managed to we've been relentless in our pursuit of this contributor and he has finally agreed to bless us with his presence talking about one of his heroines who is it so the author ian dale uh author broadcaster very much friend of the show ian dale with two eyes has written a short but very effective and quite dense biography of margaret thatcher yeah and it was designed um he says for young the generation that didn't grow up with her in her shadow but who are probably living with um well um some of the impact of the decision she made or her government made um does any of that make sense it does yeah well she had such an enormous impact on both of our lives i think it's hard for us to understand how future subsequent generations have not felt that impact i mean she she changed our horizon didn't she oh good a hundred percent and i do find it weird that um so many people know so little about her now i i know it's very easy to upset people with views about margaret thatcher i would i mean i found that book interesting actually because um ian makes the point that she was an incredible pragmatist and she would do deals with people that you wouldn't necessarily expect her to she would leave things alone if she felt it might be easier just for them to work out under their own steam without her direct involvement.

48:53And she also had many, many enemies, many people who hated her guts. But she also did have courage. And I think even if you didn't agree with 70 % of what she did, what you can't do is deny the scale of her achievement. I mean, nobody would have expected that girl, born in Grantham in 1926, to a grocer and his wife to become prime minister. I mean, it's still a remarkable story. And she did do stuff. She did. There's a fantastic bit at the end where Ian details 12 myths about Margaret Thatcher and then debunks them. And if you didn't have time to read anything else in the book, it's well worth reading those because actually, you know, committed to mythology are quite a few untruths about her.

49:40So here's Ian Dale. We're going to talk about the paperback publication of your latest tome. It is a guide to the life and times and the impact of Margaret Thatcher. And it came from an interesting place, didn't it? You realising that actually the huge impact that Margaret Thatcher has had on our lives, we are all of a certain age, just hasn't then created the same kind of impact in future generations. Some people don't really know very much about her. No, particularly younger generations. And when I was first approached by the publisher to do the book, I said no, because I thought, well, what can I possibly add to the sum of human knowledge on Margaret Thatcher?

50:17And then I broke my hip and went to a gym to do physiotherapy rehab. And my personal trainer was 25 years old. And when he found out what I did for a living, he said, now I've heard of Margaret Thatcher, but what did she do? And I thought, mate, I'm going to write this book for you. And I have, because you have to be now, I think, 57 years old to have voted in the 1987 general election. So to have voted either for or against Margaret Thatcher. She left office nearly 36 years ago. So you've had essentially three generations of people who've grown up not living through that age. If we were doing this programme in 1926, as opposed to 2026, we'd now be talking about Disraeli.

51:00I mean, I think that really hits home just how long ago it was. And yet, depending on your point of view, she casts a shadow over modern day politics, or she's still seen as a heroic figure to many. Was there anything that your much younger gym training friend could automatically say if you were going to do a kind of word cloud of Thatcher with him? What would he have come up with? I don't think he even knew that she was prime minister. Wow. OK. Because the work that we do, we take it for granted that people sometimes are as interested in these things as we are. And most people are not. they might watch the news once or twice a week but they don't keep up to date with politics so I don't really blame people for that because most people have got lives to get on with and they don't obsess about these things They must be very happy Well they probably are much happier than we are Did you want to also prove a point about the mythology that has surrounded Margaret Thatcher Both Jane and I agree that the book is terrific the myth-busting stuff at the end is absolutely fantastic Well, it was done partly to try and give a perspective.

52:10I mean, I am a huge admirer of Margaret Thatcher and I've never made any secret of that. But I hope you would agree that the book is not a hagiography. There are plenty of bits in it where I do criticise her for things that she did wrong, which in 11 and a half years as Prime Minister, that is inevitable. You are inevitably going to get some things wrong. Well, lots of people in think she got a whole lot wrong. Well, of course they do. And they have every right to think that. I've just gone through, I think I've done 12 myths. I could have done a lot more. But the fact that people still think that in some way she was a supporter of apartheid in South Africa, it's just not true.

52:45And I've provided the evidence to show that it wasn't true. Nelson Mandela actually thanked her for her role in getting him out of prison and the dismantling of apartheid. I'd kind of rather take his views into account rather than necessarily people who didn't really know what they were talking about. The one that really surprised me was her commitment to tackling the climate crisis. I had made an assumption, and I couldn't then really retrace it in my head where I'd got it from, that she would be a non-believer in a climate emergency. She was the first world leader to make a speech on climate change.

53:21I think this was in 1989. I didn't know this either until I read Charles Moore's three-volume biography of her. I mean, that was why I thought I couldn't add to the sum of human knowledge, because he'd done such a brilliant job. And he found this speech that she'd made to the UN General Assembly in 1989. And he uncovered papers where she tried to get George H.W. Bush, Bush the Elder, who was then president of the USA, on side. But coming from a sort of Texas oil background, she didn't succeed in that. Do you recall the night she became prime minister? No. You see, well, you see, I do. And I just said to you earlier, I was going to bring in my 1979 diary in which a breathless 14 year old me.

54:04Oh, you should have done. Oh, God, Ian, no, I would never have worked in broadcasting again. What a prat. I mean, absolutely every. I do remember the day because I was 16 and I stood as the Conservative candidate in my school's election. Right. Yes. But what was, I mean, nowadays we would find this unbelievable, is that I didn't just beat the Labour Party. This is in Suffernwald and in the comprehensive school in Essex. I beat the National Front candidate into second place. Now, the National Front were the equivalent of the British National Party. I mean, imagine that even being allowed to happen nowadays.

54:39It just wouldn't, would it? Gosh, no, that does rather date. It's the only election I've ever won. Yes, it probably is. I do. You say in the book that your grandmother was very exercised, wasn't she? And my grandmother lived with us. And I remember she asked me to knock on her bedroom door if Margaret Thatcher won the election in the middle of the night. And I did when she did. And so she and think she was she was 79 in 1979. And for her, it was a hugely significant event. Well, go back five years or four years, the day Margaret Thatcher was elected leader of the Conservative Party. My grandmother also lived with us.

55:12It happened in our generations, didn't it? And she was ill in bed. And I remember watching the ITN News at 6.30 and they announced that she'd won. And I remember running up the stairs, and how old was I, 12, and saying to my grandmother, Margaret Thatcher's won. And she burst into tears. Now, the uncharitable among your listeners might think, well, I'm not surprised. She knew what was coming. And I said to her afterwards, why were you so emotional about that? And she said, because I never thought a woman could lead a political party. Well, Margaret Thatcher didn't believe it. herself, did she?

55:45No, she did a programme Val Meets the VIPs, do you remember that? I do, absolutely. And she did this interview with, there's about, I don't know, 20 children in the studio with Valerie Singleton and a little boy called Roger, who's aged 10, said, Mrs Thatcher, do you think you'll be Prime Minister one day? And she just laughed and said, no, no, no, not in my lifetime, dear. Well, five years later, she was. And I remember, it was only, what, 12 years after that, in 1987, my seven-year-old niece Emma said to me, Uncle Ian, can a man be Prime Minister? Children did really ask that, didn't they? Yeah, absolutely.

56:21Yeah, they did. They really did. It was very rare for her to be a working, married mother in chambers at the time that she was. Exactly that. But how much of that, Ian, is about her and her indomitable spirit and her academic qualifications and how much decent men around her enabling her to pursue her ambitions? Well, it was in large part because she was married to a businessman, Dennis, who they met when she was a parliamentary candidate in Dartford in 1950. And I think it is true to say, I mean, you'd hate to think this would happen now, but without his money, she couldn't have done it because she had twins in 1954.

57:05She didn't stand in the 55 general election because of that. And his wealth gave her the ability to have a nanny. And she therefore managed. I mean, it's still difficult because she had to retrain as a lawyer. So she was studying to get her law qualifications and then practiced as a lawyer. So it wasn't easy, but it was a lot easier than it would have been for many others. You've got an introduction by Penny Mordaunt. She said something that I was fascinated by, Ian. She said, even if she were here in the age of social commentary, I think she would have chosen to say less, better. To imagine Margaret Thatcher as a TikTok queen is quite something.

57:46How would she have fared? Are you covertly trying to compare her to Andy Burnham, who seems to be addicted to TikTok? Now, I think in some ways this is a good thing. I do think politicians need to communicate in the way that different generations understand. But I think he's got to be quite careful about it. I think some did you want to see the barn cake one that he did? I'm thinking, is this really what a prime minister should be doing? Now, maybe that's my age, but I just thought, no, no, no, you can absolutely do TikTok. But just be a little bit more careful and don't sort of do things that just play into this thing.

58:20Well, I'm a northerner. You can trust me because I've got a northern accent. I mean, obviously, Jane plays that very well, but even though she hasn't got a northern accent. Can I just, it's Kemi Bader-Knot. Is she ambivalent about Margaret Thatcher or does she have no view on her at all? No, no, she's not ambivalent. OK, what does she think? In fact, I remember when I started writing this book, I was writing the chapter on her as lead to the opposition. And everything I kept researching, I kept thinking, well, that's a challenge for Kemi Bader-Knot. And I texted her and I said, look, I hope you're really reading up on Margaret Thatcher's period in opposition because there's a lot of parallels.

58:54and a couple of weeks later she sent me a screenshot of a page she was reading in a biography by patrick cosgrave she just circled a paragraph and said this is my life right and i mean she's clearly an admirer of margaret thatcher but i think like the rest of us even if we're admirers we absolutely acknowledge you can't translate 1980s thatcherism into 1920 into 2026 you just can't um i remember after covid i thought i believe in low taxes in a small state I'm never going to see that again in my lifetime. And I'm realistic enough to know that. You can still argue for it. And I think, well, I'm pretty sure Kimmy Bader not would say the same thing.

59:32Right. Just a quick word on her biggest mistakes. I think that, I mean, there were a few. What did she really get wrong? Well, the poll tax is the obvious one, isn't it? Where she lost the ability that she had for the first, what, seven or eight years, where she had her finger on the pulse of public opinion. And the poll tax just completely ruined that. She also became a little bit regal in her last couple of years. Remember, we are a grandmother. I mean, what normal person says that? She lost touch with her backbenchers. I mean, Keir Starmer fell partly because he was never in touch with his backbenchers.

1:00:07He made no effort to get to know them. Even after a year, there were still some that had never met him. Well, she didn't make that mistake, certainly not in the first few years. But I think the poll tax, I think also the reaction to the fact that manufacturing industry started to go, there were schemes to help communities sort of move into a new era, but they weren't big enough. I think the will was there, but looking back, they ought to have done a lot more. And there are still communities, certainly in the north and the northeast of this country, that even today you utter her word in a former coal mining village and they will effectively spit on you.

1:00:48Can you imagine this country without her? Where would we be in 2026 if we hadn't had Thatcher? who knows i mean i think we were heading for a catastrophe in 1979 and whatever her faults whatever she did wrong i think she did save the country in many ways we were seen as a sick man of europe the strikes were just overwhelming i remember going to germany on a school exchange and they just laughed at us and i think she rescued us from that i think the falklands war restored our international reputation showed the soviet union that we weren't wouldn't be a pushover So I think we would be a weaker country had she not been prime minister.

1:01:30And if you think about it, since the Second World War, there have only really been three significant prime ministers, people who've changed the political weather, Clement Attlee, her and Tony Blair. Tony Benn had this phrase, sort of, you're either a weathervane or a signpost in politics. And most of our prime ministers since Tony Blair have been weathervanes. and I mean one of the tests of Andy Burnham is is he going to be like that or not? He's made an interesting start hasn't he if you compare it to how Thatcher started with her message of hope so she used the where there is despair may you bring hope it's a St Francis of Assisi quote I mean he did pretty much the same thing didn't he he wanted to bill himself as the ultimate PM of hope Whenever new prime ministers come into power, they either do what Sarah Palin used to call the hopey-changey thing or stick with Nurse for fear of worse.

1:02:27And Keir Starmer did the doom-laden, it's all going to get worse. And I think that was one of his big mistakes. We didn't want somebody to say it's all going to be gloom and doom. We needed to get vibed. Well, we're certainly getting vibed at the moment, aren't we? Pragmatism. You speak a lot about Margaret Thatcher's pragmatic approach to a range of issues. I think Northern Ireland was one of them, wasn't it? Yeah, every prime minister, well, ever since the late 1960s, has had to deal with problems in Northern Ireland. Most of them would rather not deal with it. They know nothing about it. They're not interested in it.

1:03:02And yet somehow, eventually, most of them kind of get religion over it. That's an inappropriate thing to say, isn't it? You know what I mean? And secretaries of state for Northern Ireland, it's usually seen as a job you really don't want in cabinet. But virtually all of them, once they've done it for a few months, think it is the best job in cabinet. She didn't really know much about Northern Ireland. She was an instinctive unionist, but that was about it. But, of course, very quickly after the election in 79, well, in fact, just before the election, Aerie Neve was blown up in the House of Commons, one of her chief lieutenants.

1:03:41Then, of course, Lord Mountbatten was murdered in August 1979. So it was a real baptism of fire. And she was very quick to demonstrate to the people of Northern Ireland, even if she wasn't an expert on the politics of Northern Ireland, she was with them. And I think there was a bombing in Warren Point. It was on the same day that Lord Mountbatten was murdered. And the next day she went over to Northern Ireland and did a walkabout. And I mean, that, I think, took some guts. And I think that really impressed people. Well, it certainly impressed people on one side of the divide. Yeah, I do also remember, even if you didn't like a single one of Margaret Thatcher's policies, and I absolutely respect that there are many people who couldn't stand her, the courage of the woman after the Brighton bomb, for example, giving that speech at the Tory conference, unbelievable poise and just raw courage.

1:04:31How on earth she did that? I'll never know. No, and I think in those circumstances, you find out what someone is like as a person. And I think the adrenaline flows. She was determined that she wasn't going to give any signal to the IRA that they'd won any sort of victory. And there's that famous scene, I think, after she came out of the Lewis police station, was taken there saying to John Cole, who was then the BBC political editor, the conference will go on at nine o 'clock. Now, I'm sure her speech changed a bit, but there she was at nine o 'clock ready to make her final speech to the conference.

1:05:07And then the following Sunday, she was at a church at Checkers and she was seen shedding a tear. And she said afterwards, it was because this was the day I was never meant to see. And I think that's when it really hit her what could have happened. You do talk in the book about her thoughts as she entered her third age. And I'd actually not read before, Ian, that she had had very many regrets about the path that she'd taken, which was definitely one of a woman who wanted a big, successful career and a woman who also had a family. But you say that she did come to recognise that one suffered at the other's expense.

1:05:54Yes, I think she, I don't know whether she ever admitted that she wasn't a particularly great mother to, certainly to Carol. I think Mark was the apple of her eye. But Carol, I think, had a difficult time. She always felt that she was never equal to Mark, even though they were twins. and several of her friends have said that after she left office in 1990, she never had another happy day because she thought being Prime Minister was what she was put on this earth to do. And I think anybody who finishes a job, and I suspect the three of us think that we were put on this earth to be on the radio and the day that that stops...

1:06:36No, I know that I'm not. Well, I think you were. Maybe by my colleagues. But particularly when you lose your job when you're not expecting to and you can't understand why your colleagues would get rid of you after you've won from three elections, you've won a lot of them their seats. I think psychologically she found that incredibly difficult to cope with. I don't know whether she suffered what we would now call depression, but I suspect that there was a form of depression going on there. Well, it does sound like it. Ian Dale with his biography of Margaret Thatcher, paperback, available now. Very reasonable prices.

1:07:16Unlike in Norway. God knows how much it costs in Norway. They cost most of you a week's salary, wouldn't it? Well, maybe books aren't as much. Maybe it's just the food stuff that are... I don't know. I didn't investigate. I saw a great book. You had to literally fight your way through piles of Joe Nesbo books at the airport before you could get in. Before you could even get into the country. I don't know how much they were. I can't read a Joan Espo anymore because I do find some of the things that happen to bodies just too much for my little self. Oh, dear. Right, OK. Well, I'm kind of with you.

1:07:50That's why I'm happy to spend a bit of time with the cassolets and their great big beanie meaties. But I'm still thinking about that meat pack. Blimey. I don't know how the people of Oban go about their business. They must be so restricted by the amount of meat products you've eaten. Absolutely extraordinary. Right, do let us know if you can do better than that meat pack. It's janeandfee at times.radio. It's quite a task I've set. And if you do get an email from either of us seriously asking for money, we just pay no attention. Pay no heed, please. Yeah, pay no attention at all. Goodbye.

1:08:45Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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