Not even the weighted blanket could withstand his nocturnal stirrings... (with Scott Bryan)

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2:33You mentioned Nduja a little earlier on. Nduja. I always think it sounds either like a DJ at a very, very fashionable club in Ibiza. Yes. or what? Or I don't know. It doesn't sound like it should be a sausagey spicy paste. It's now routinely offered. I noticed it advertised as being one of the ingredients of a pasta sauce yesterday evening when I was perusing the aisles. It's everywhere. It is everywhere. But where has it been? I don't know. It's all quite recent in this country, isn't it? Well, it is. And what's it taken the place of? Because there are always big trends, aren't there? The other thing I think it always sounds like is just a place somewhere out, you know, to the northwest of Barcelona.

3:18I'm just, I've been to Enduga. It's in the hills. Oh, you won't know it. My friend's got a bit of that. Oh, she's a very good old friend. I've got no friends at all with Phyllis. What has happened in my... I know you've got thousands. I haven't got thousands. But I don't deny that I've got some. You've got all of your holidays. Based on people's second homes. It shouldn't be your opening question when you want to make friends with people, I think you should put it at number three. Did you? Yes. And I've kept in with them. That's the other thing you've got to do. What are the top two questions?

3:55Well, first of all, how are you? No, who are you? Who are you? Who am I? Have you got a second home? Have you got a second home I might be able to have access to? Oh, dear. People think we're joking. No, I'm not joking. I think, honestly, life's too short, kids. I'm here to tell you that. Not for everybody, of course. Some people's lives go on a very long time. Do you know what? You've got to want to be a good guest. And if I can be honest, Jane, I don't feel particularly comfortable staying in other people's houses for weeks at a time. Oh, don't you? No, I don't. I'm fine with it. I like my kind of sense of space and actually just being able to get up in the morning and do relatively what I want to do on holiday.

4:38I hear you. What's that saying about house guests? They're like fish. Fish, they go off after three days. I think that doesn't sound unreasonable. But you tend to stay for a week. If that's what the invitation says, then yes. For example, the week after next I'll be staying. But for five nights, I think that's slightly different to a week. Yeah. It's much shorter. I think Nduja has taken the place of Sriracha because there was a massive kind of whirl of enthusiasm for Sriracha in this country. Obviously not in the country that it comes from. Where does it come from? I don't know. I mean, I don't get harissa either, if I'm honest.

5:17And then there's rose harissa, the perky younger sister of harissa. Yeah, I never answered rose harissa. Those are just too... You wouldn't be able to taste the rose in a pot of harissa. I don't think you can. Can anybody? No, it's certainly passed me by. But that's, you know, that's what 20 Marlboro lights a day for my entire 20s will do. Can it affect your thinking and your taste buds? I don't think it affects your thinking. definitely affects your taste buds oh god i think so yeah tell you what's still having a lingering impact on my taste buds that flipping virus you think you had well no you did have covid i don't know i haven't mentioned it so far but i had covid last week and i'm i'm saying that only because uh thoughts and prayers uh to people more vulnerable than myself who might get covid it's no bloody joke for you you've had it a lot haven't you i seem to get it whenever it comes throughout yes no sorry well you weren't you haven't had this iteration from me so far no no you haven't i'm not infectious anymore jane even with the the vaccinations i just still end up getting it i get the mild version of it but it is a bit weird it is me and evan davis we just seem to get it all the time and i obviously i only know that because you know he tells people on how when he's tested positive something and fair enough i mean yeah i've just mentioned it yes yes sorry No, but just to say to people who think, oh, it doesn't matter.

6:37It doesn't matter if you get COVID. No, by and large, it doesn't matter. But I'm a relatively healthy individual. And I've just been, it's just such an annoying thing to get. It does make you feel quite rotten, actually. I mean, I'm loads better now. And I am, I should say, no longer testing. I'm such a panic merchant that I do have tests in the house. Partly because I obviously couldn't visit my dad when I was in the early throes of this version of COVID. Which I had, actually, all over the bank holiday. weekend. I was sitting there with my arms folded, face like a slap backside, unable to taste anything, unable really to go anywhere.

7:11But... God, I was miserable. I'm not trying to gaslight your experience here at all. Haven't we come a long way where actually you had a bout of COVID and it passed over a weekend? Oh no, I was fine by Tuesday when we came back. I think I probably was glad I had that extra day to knock it on the head a bit. But you just, I still can't really taste anything and it makes you suddenly aware of how much taste matters to you. Oh, my word. So, do you know what, it's a fascinating topic, because I think it's the most underestimated of senses when you talk about losing it. But people who have lost it, and lots of people who had COVID, they lost their sense of taste and it's never come back.

7:48It sounds so mentally challenging because all you're choosing your food based on is the texture of it and the nutrient value of it, but that's not enough when you're eating, is it? No, it really isn't. It absolutely isn't, and it's infuriating me, and I'm very angry about it. I need to grow a pear and just move on. Well, I think you should go for the Nduja, because it is quite a fiery thing. Okay, well, I don't know. I don't seem to be... I don't even want anything. And you know me, although I do have the appetite of a bird, I do eat regularly. Yes, you do. You actually eat quite a lot. I mean you've got a you've got a rap from a well-known high street food entertainer that comes in every day which is about, I've got bath mats that are smaller than that.

8:38Oh you're talking about the good old days when I could taste things like that I want to bring in Gemma Oh for God's sake please bring in Gemma. Yes Gemma's here to talk about alopecia, so many emails about this but she just draws our attention to the winner of this year's Rose of Trelee Festival it's still a really really big event in Ireland I mean I'm sure there are all sorts of views on it it's effectively it's a beauty contest isn't it but I think it's a little bit more than that well you tell me because you've got far better knowledge of Irish culture than I have because whenever I've seen it and I've only obviously ever read about it in books or seen it depicted on television and I can't really work out whether it's still a Miss World Miss Universe thing it seems to be taken more seriously and be less demeaning.

9:26I think it's much less demeaning. I don't think, again, neither of us have seen it recently. I'm assuming there wouldn't be a swimsuit round or anything like that. I very much doubt it. And I think I gather there's quite an emphasis on community work. Anyway, I'm talking out of my hat here because I don't know what I'm on about. It's so unusual. But Gemma says a rose is selected to represent the festival at the end of it all. and while it is a nod to beauty festivals of the past the selection is based on personal attributes right thank you for that Gemma and this year's winner has alopecia in her on stage interview she demonstrated putting on various wigs she had a huge television audience for it and it's done so much to increase awareness of the condition well fantastic and congratulations to the winner she is 25 she's from Westmeath and she is Keelin Nikilig so well done to her because that is that's actually brilliant to use that platform to talk about alopecia and to discuss wigs good for her and congratulations to her and jemma thank you now can i just say hello to rachel who's the one with the ab fan laughter because she's having the same problem she says i'm having the same issue with peter granger books i was initially doing alternate with other books but now i'm all in i'm smashing through them i agree with fee the characters are so well written i can picture them so clearly now rachel has brought tickets to the cheltenham literature festival and she's looking forward to coming to see us all.

10:47And this is us interviewing on stage... The one and only... Annika Rice. I tell you what. She's got an autobiography out. It's called Challenge. Is it? Yes, it is. Challenge. That's very good. With an exclamation mark. I don't think it does. It's got a picture on the front cover of her in one of her fabulous jumpsuits with the helicopter in the background. Of course. I think it might actually either be today or yesterday where tickets weren't officially live. Oh, my word. This is exciting, Eve. Okay. Eve was there in the background. She didn't put her microphone up. We think she's... Are you a little bit under the weather today?

11:21She's going through private times. I'm just letting you guys do your thing. She's lazy. You've had enough of the limelight. Oh, yeah. It's hard work, isn't it? We hate it. So, the last thing we want is attention. Book your tickets, because it's always really lovely to see you at Cheltenham. It's such a fantastic festival. You know, we're always sandwiched in between people who are far, far more interesting, but we make it work and it would be lovely to see you so get yourself a ticket come along and if you're having a low moment just try and find the photograph from last year's Cheltenham Literature Festival of Penny Lancaster with us which just is just still one of the funniest things I've ever seen it is good my children said you just look like hobbits hobbits in the presence of greatness yeah where's the respect I hope Rod's alright he's had a bit of a tough time hasn't he well he has Jane I find it painful to talk about.

12:16No, I think he's on the mend, I hope so. Yeah, I think it's, well, obviously it's inevitable that all of these old rockers will... Well, it is, you say, yeah, of course it is, but, you know, we do forget, don't we, just how old they are, and I don't mean that in any way, because we're not getting any younger, any of us, but they keep on going, and then there does come a time, as you say, quite naturally, when things just start to need a little bit of attention. I mean, Mick Jagger, he seems completely indestructible. Oh, my word. So imagine if there's news this weekend. Oh, no, no. Mystic Garth.

12:51Don't say that. Yeah. Who do you regret not having seen before they died? Oh, gosh. Well, I suppose... Who do I regret? I mean, obviously, well, he's not dead yet, but Sir Paul McCartney will be a shame when he passes away. Have you seen him? No, no. No, never. No, do you remember there was an outing here to see him at the O2 when I didn't get a ticket? Oh, yeah, I vaguely remember that. Eve did get to go. Eve, come on. So, let's bring in the person who has seen Paul McCartney live. How was that night? He was amazing. Really scouse. Weren't you all in a box and it was quite entertaining in inverted commas?

13:34Yes, we had a box, we had an open bar, free-flowing drinks. Sounds awful. It was a thank you to production. Oh, was it? But not to presenters. No, I see. Oh, right. Well, you should definitely get tickets then. I'd have thought he'd have personally invited you. Whenever he's performing, Jane, because he will regret that point. Oh, I already semi-do. Yes. I mean, I don't know. Was his voice any good? I mean, I'm not... Look, the man's a genius, but I think perhaps the voice has taken a bit of a knocking. Yes. I mean, it wasn't the crispest, sharpest it's ever been. No. But the production was really amazing.

14:08He put on a good show. Which big hits did he do? Oh, my goodness. Don't start singing Beatles songs with your voice. Seriously, Ian Dale will melt. I know. We had to put up with about five minutes of Ian Dale telling us how fabulous you were when he came in on the podcast. Yeah. We were just like, yeah, we know. Thanks, Ian. Shush now. She's left for the day, Ian. I don't know where she's gone. What's his Christmas song? What's his Christmas song? Paul McCartney's not Ian Dale's. Oh, I was going to say. Simply having a wonderful Christmas time. Because we went to see him in December and he bought out a full children's orchestra for that.

14:41That was quite a nice moment. It's so unfair that I didn't get to go on that. Anyway, I'm glad the production team had a good night out. I've never been in one of those boxes with a free bar. Have you? Yes. Oh. I went to see Neil Diamond. Did you? Another good night. Yeah, at the O2 in a box. It was just fantastic. I bet that was great. Really, really fantastic. Neil Diamond, I think, so I remember very clearly that some friends of mine really laughed at me for going to see Neil Diamond. Well, my point exactly, but I mean, this was quite a long time ago. I mean, it really was quite a long time ago, maybe 15 years, maybe even more than that.

15:20and I think sometimes it's only for our generation in an artist's true third age that they get the respect that other bands have been given automatically so I don't think an awful lot of people you know 20 years ago actually would have bought tickets to go and see Dolly Parton in the way that people have grieved Dolly Parton now would suggest that they would have done but they wouldn't have done and I think it's exactly the same for Neil Diamond I think some of his music will stand the test of time forever. I think he's just that brilliant. But I was definitely mocked as a slightly kind of M.O.R.

15:59choice of thing. But that probably says something about my friends. Didn't Iandale take you to see someone in the box? You went to see Cliff Richard in a box. I had to sit with Dame Sheila Fogarty in the main stalls. My apologies. Do you know what? That's another thing we didn't ask Ian about, his absolute love of Cliff Richard. there's still time we'll get him back on can I just say that I had tickets to go and see one of Billy Joel's last concerts at Madison Square Garden I like him too oh I absolutely love him and I couldn't go because it clashed with a work thing here so I didn't go it was obviously a big trip because we'd have to fly over the pond in order to go and do it and I remember thinking it'll be okay because, so I gave the tickets to a friend of mine who lives in America and they had a really really wonderful time and I thought it would be okay because he was meant to be coming over here and doing some concerts here but I'm not sure he'll ever play live again because he's got some things going on health wise and I do think about whenever obviously whenever a Billy Joel track comes on my playlist which is quite often and I do think oh my goodness I've thought about that concert so much it's almost as if I did go so actually you got your money's worth no i didn't at all and i think because he had a really special connection he used to do gigs there all the time like it was just you know him popping down to his local pub and you know belting out all the hits i think it would have been glorious is madison square garden a particularly big venue or is it just iconic because it's not very big jane and it's really weird because it is in the you know it is in manhattan it is in new york city it's not what you expect it to be.

17:37I think, you know, most of our huge venues for music and sport, they are slightly outside a city, aren't they? I can't think, I mean, the O2 actually is probably the nearest to the centre of a great metropolis that we'll get in this country. Although I don't know, does Liverpool have a... It's the Echo Arena. And where is the Echo Arena? Albert Dock. Okay, so yeah, no, that would probably be the equivalent. It's not huge, though. I mean, it's big, but not huge. So no, Madison Square Garden isn't massive, massive, massive. It's not Wembley size or anything like that. I do think it was a strange venue for a wedding, but Taylor Swift and...

18:17What's his name? Well, he's always referred to as the Kansas rear end, isn't he? It's just bizarre. People have caught me worse. Nothing's come out about that wedding. Nothing, I was just about to say that. They did a really good job on that, didn't they? So how have they done that? Just massive NDAs. Yes, I suppose it must be that, a romantic. The loyalty of an awful lot of people and good for them, good for them. And I would imagine probably quite a decent, maybe goodie bag. Oh my gosh, can you imagine? Wow. Certainly beats those, what was it, people used to give out almonds. You used to get a little bag of sugar almonds.

18:58What was that all about? I think they're meant to be good luck, aren't they? Didn't work out that way.

19:06I'm sorry, we've ended on a slightly bitternut, a little bit like the almonds. Now, we're not going to identify this correspondent, but in response to our query yesterday about San Sisters and wanting to know a little bit more about the life of matrons, we have this anonymous correspondent who says, I was in exactly that type of job myself. I used to watch cricket in the summer. I did lots of hay fever dehydration, sunburn. Boys don't like sunblock much or remember to drink. The odd burn from boys ironing trousers with them still on. Oh no. Is that honestly a thing? Period pains, broken wrists, numerous sprained ankles, head injuries, lots of ice packs, neurotic housemasters thinking they had angina or double pneumonia.

19:57And I used to see 20 or 30 children a day. The winters could be madly busy, flu, stomach bugs, occasional appendicitis. And this is really sad, actually. Not a parent to be found. Tending to miserables, convincing them that they weren't dying, which was sad because not all children like boarding. And by the way, I don't think that our correspondent is being patronising, saying miserables. I think, obviously, it's recognising the fact that some kids have a really, really tough time at boarding school. Occasional injuries from horseplay. I love the variety. I had a great time. But after several years, I needed a change.

20:33And I bet you're in such a loco parentis position, aren't you, as a matron in a boarding school? Because in those times of need, you've got to give something more than just nursing assistance, haven't you? If you've got kids away from home. There's also something, although I like September a lot, there is a melancholy about September because there are new beginnings, goodbyes, difficult times for quite a few people at this time of year, aren't there? That sense of packing your bags, trying your luck somewhere else, doing something different, going somewhere else. I don't know. I think it conjures up quite a lot of emotions for a lot of people.

21:12I'm sure it does. I could never have gone to boarding school. Myself would never have sent my kids to boarding school. I know some people have a terrific time, but I think if you don't, you can't go back and do your childhood again. and I found it weird. And being a day girl in a boarding school was quite an odd thing because you were neither one thing nor the other, but I was always so glad I was a day girl. Oh, I can't think of anything worse than putting my head down on some very thin pillow in a dorm. No, but it was weird because lots of girls were just having a great time. They were really enjoying it.

21:46Maybe in your late teens. No, and I don't think it's damaging for everybody. No, I don't know. Anyway, that's cheered everybody up. I mean, it's a difficult one, Jane. If you're working in the forces, if you're being sent abroad... Oh, I think there's a multitude of reasons for it. Loads and loads of reasons. If you're a single parent and you're working, I mean, there are a thousand reasons for parents sending their kids to boarding schools. But for me, anyway, I wouldn't have been able to do it. Just to make clear that although I would have been very resistant to going to boarding school as a child.

22:24I don't get homesick now if I go and stay at people's second homes. So please, please don't worry about it. Feel free to invite me. Maybe if you've gone to boarding school, it would be a more triggering experience for you. Yes, quite possibly. But I manage. This is a listener who has seen some giant jellyfish. Now, last week I was bemoaning because it was such a strange summer because it's been so hot. We've only had one sighting of a large cat. That was somewhere in Northamptonshire. And it kind of came and went and didn't really create that many headlines. And I was only saying last week that it's been really a complete, complete dearth of giant jellyfish.

23:03But... Incoming. Incoming. Here we have it. I thought I'd tell you about my recent encounter with an absolutely beautiful but scarily gigantic jellyfish. My husband and I are very lucky to be retired and living in the New Forest. Now, I don't know the New Forest. Do you? I do. And can you, have you heard of this beach? It's spelt L-E-P-E. No. So I don't know how to say it. Leap, leppy? Let's go with both. Sounds beautiful, doesn't it, says our correspondent, but we do have an Esso refinery, which can be noisy, but does bring down the quite extortionate New Forest house prices. Always an upside.

23:42There we are. There's one of our listeners with a glasses half full approach to life. Anyway, we do love to swim in the sea at the beach as often as we can, mainly just a bob in the water to cool down, followed by a coffee and a croissant, and an hour or so with our kindles. Doesn't retirement in the New Forest sound absolutely brilliant? Absolutely lovely. I mean, presumably there's a distant hum coming from the Esso refinery, but probably your hearing isn't as good as it used to be, so you probably aren't that aware of it. We've worked hard and we deserve it, as our correspondent were quite right to.

24:19The water has warmed up a lot this summer and we often see fish and occasionally the resident seal pops his head up. However, a couple of weeks ago, I was just about to walk into the water when I spotted the most enormous and beautiful jellyfish floating near the edge of the water. Now, it was the size of a large dinner plate, white in colour, with red squiggles and red tentacles flaring out behind it. There was no way I was going in with that in the water. I googled it and found it was a compass jellyfish, which can give quite an unpleasant sting. A bit more research revealed to me that jellyfish don't in fact have a brain, but are just beings.

24:58So I felt reassured that it wouldn't come after me. Is that the case? That in order to be predatory, you need a brain, I suppose? Would that be right? Could you google, do jellyfish have brains? I watched it drift away on the tide and when it was out of sight, I persuaded my husband to stand on a rock to keep guard while I tentatively ventured in for a very quick, cool-off dip. Big, brave husband. He used to be a fearless fireman. He wouldn't go in. We haven't seen any more jellyfish, so we have become braver again, and we are going back to our regular swims. A couple of years ago, we found, or somebody found a dead shark on the beach.

25:38Bizarrely, someone had chopped its head off, but that's another story. I'd like to hear it. Yes, it says Anonymous. Thank you, Anonymous, for that. They don't have brains. Right. They survive and move using a decentralised system, a nerve net and sensory structures. So they're like the driverless cars of the ocean. Brainless. Brainless, but so wouldn't come after you because they don't know you're there. They don't care. Right. They are extraordinary, aren't they? They are otherworldly. I've only ever seen a few, but I don't... They make me feel a bit uneasy. Yeah, but it's the insides-out thing, isn't it?

26:15You can just stare at them for hours, just working out where their little bits are going. Yeah. Yeah, all their big bits. David Asbra, eat your heart, Ash. On the Leppy Beach. Now, weighted blankets. Loads of people are fans of the weighted blanket. Alison is in Birkhamstead. Birkhamstead. Birkhamstead. And she agrees with the description of the weighted blanket being like chain mail. I ordered one for my daughter for Christmas a few years ago to help her sleep my menopausal brain instantly forgot about it and this large and extremely heavy parcel arrived a few days later I couldn't for the life of me think what it was sadly it has been relegated to the unwanted blanket cushion bedding store which is slowly accumulating in the spare room I've no idea what its destiny is and now thanks to Jane's pertinent question I've been reminded of the worry of how to recycle it it will cost a small fortune to post if I sell it So in fact, that's not in favour of the weighted blanket.

27:09But this one is. This is Janet. I couldn't be without my weighted blanket. It's thick and of course it's heavy, but it's not hot under it or cold. It's bizarre. I don't really know why. For me, it is like being hugged. And we all need a hug when we wake up in the middle of the night. So what's not to like? The one that you're getting rid of, if you can't wash it, you could donate it to a local support group for SEN kids or ask your local school. Neurodivergent people find them very calming. And we did have another one, which I'm just going to find. But they're not hot, this is my question. Wouldn't they be incredibly hot?

27:45Well, do you know what? I've never slept underneath one, so I bought one for one of the kids who absolutely loved it. It didn't seem to find any difficulty with it being too hot or too cold, but I guess if it is tiny balls of metal, maybe it's aerated enough for it not to be hot. I'm right at the boundary of my knowledge on weighted blankets very very soon in the conversation but I just wanted to get to the one because there was a really good one from a parent of yes here we go my son has a weighted blanket as he also struggles to settle to sleep we've recently tried compression sheets they are a long tube of sheet which you slide onto the mattress tightly it provides sensory feedback holding him tight and stops him rolling out of bed too.

28:32He struggles with proprioception and has ADHD. The sheet has been a game changer for us as well as deep tissue massages. It's the only way he can settle, be still and get calm enough to go to sleep. And our anonymous correspondent says, a word of caution regarding the weight of blankets though. It is important to follow safety guidelines regarding the weight and age suitability. Good point. Yeah, very good point. I suppose there's some I wonder whether some people struggle with the amount of space they find they have in bed because as babies you're encouraged to swaddle a baby aren't you and keep it obviously not so tight that they can't but actually they like to be very very firmly placed don't they they do in cloths and blankets and things obviously not too many but you know what I mean I always found that quite difficult to get right the swaddling and also knowing when to stop swaddling because then there's a time when in fact babies really want to sleep arms up above their head, legs akimbo and I mean it's the most delightful I'm here to tell them you'll never get that back that simple joy when they're just absolutely because they haven't got a care in the world they're not worried about all the things I'm worried about you have a great life, stop it I've got my power pack back I'm glad about that because the prepping is not going to end, let me tell you that.

29:59The youngest child took the Power Pack to a festival at the weekend. She did come back and said, that's it. It was not great weather at the weekend. I am done with festivals until Glastonbury next year. I said, right, OK, that's a very firm promise. Anyway, the Power Pack survived and was apparently incredibly good. I'm sure it was. I think it's been a bit of a nightmare for festivals this year, hasn't it? because it's either been so, so hot. And of course, for most festivals, they aren't in areas of shade. That's the whole point. So there have been these dust bowls and people have had proper lung infections afterwards, haven't they?

30:38Oh, God. Yeah, boom lung. That's a thing. I heard there were a couple of girls on the tube this morning, God love them, talking about Boomtown. That's another festival. Has that just happened? So I think that was the weekend before last. OK, well, they were just debriefing on Boomtown. A lot happened, let me tell you. Did he miss your stop? Yeah, we all heard about it. But it's either been that, or last weekend it was just sitting in a tent for the whole weekend, waiting for the torrential rain to pass over. There was quite a bit of that. But if you can't do it when you're 23, when can you do it?

31:12Yeah, that'd be fine. Yes, absolutely. Just a quick one on sore nipples. Bridget's in Suffolk. Just been listening to your episode, which contained a woman writing in about problems with sore nipples from breastfeeding. I think I've got some helpful advice. I breastfed my two daughters until nine months and a year. The first couple of months of feeding my elder daughter were really painful with sore and cracked nipples. I cried every time she latched on. I tried every cream and oil and nothing worked. And then I was given the advice to not use anything on them at all. And I've never heard of this, but to dry them with a hairdryer after a shower or bath instead of using a towel.

31:49Amazingly, it worked and continued to work. It felt like a miracle. Hopefully, my sharing of this will help some desperate mums. My daughters are now 21 and 23, and I do remember those long, difficult nights with a baby who just wouldn't sleep. Wish we'd had podcasts and Netflix and other platforms then. Yeah, actually, we often think about that, don't we? Yes, or just WhatsApp groups, you know, just to have somebody to talk to in the middle of the night, very much so. What a great suggestion. I'd never heard of that either, too. I don't know why it would work. Well, I suppose there's something about if you're drying yourself with a towel, you're just aggravating a very sensitive area of your body.

32:27Some of my more elderly towels can be exceptionally abrasive. Oh, very much so. Scouring, I would have thought. Yes, I felt your towels are terrible. It's a good point you raise. We were talking about decluttering yesterday. I've got to do something about my towels. Chuck them out, love. No, no, I think I've got some from my ex-mother-in-law. I think they were ex-Yugoslav army products. Well, keep those, because those sound valuable. I think Fiona Bruce would like to see those on a future edition of Antiques Roadshow. She probably would. Oh, God. I'm sure you'll be able to, can't you cut them up and use them usefully around the house in a very Nancy Burt whistle kind of way?

33:04Well, that's an extra for cloths. Yes. I don't think I need 750 cloths, but yes. Well, I know you're a bit of a slattern, but maybe this is the year you change. This is incoming from Vicky, who says, following the lady talking about bikini waxes with alopecia yesterday, it reminded me that I've never been brave enough to be able to negotiate a discount for a pedicure, bearing in mind I only have one foot. I've just not had one, as I'm too tight to pay the full price. If anybody has done a deal, I'd love to hear about it. Now, this is our correspondent who told us about prosthetic legs on sun loungers.

33:40and do you know what, Vicky, just go and do that deal. I mean, you cannot possibly be charged the same price. No. You just can't. And I hate the thought that you haven't gone in because you're, you know, as you say, that you're not brave enough. I mean, I bet you're one of the bravest people that we'd ever meet. So do it, knowing that we're behind you every step of the way. I can understand her reluctance. I think I can. I'm certainly not putting myself in her place. But, yeah, go for it. Just say, look, OK, this is the situation. I've got one foot. So what's the price for one foot? It must be half the price of two feet, surely.

34:23Yes, I would hope so. I'm no mathematician, but really, that's got to be the right way to do it. Have you watched Vigil? I have. I was halfway through episode two last night and I was watching, I realised I was watching it but I just couldn't think of anything else to do and I just thought, no, I don't, I have literally no idea what's going on here. Have you any idea? Well, I did love the fact that at the beginning, so this is series three of Saran Jones. It feels longer. It does, doesn't it? Being a very canny, although slightly unruly, slightly unmanageable. Bit of a maverick. Yeah, DCI or whatever she is.

35:04And this time... a lot a trouble comes her way unceasingly doesn't it does yeah she's no juliet bravo she really is so this time it's in the arctic yes and they do do quite a good job at the beginning of making various characters explain why svalbard is a complicated place to be because it's too complicated for me as it's turned out because it's norwegian yeah but territory but there is a russian installation that has been condoned and allowed to operate there because it's scientific studies supposedly but after that very basic and about three characters explained it because obviously that's going to be key to the plot still every single thing that happens i'm having to go back to that in my head to work out against what background these terrible decisions are being made it made my head hurt a little bit and so i did read one fantastic tv review of it that said vigils back we're watching it it's boring i think carol midgley wrote a very funny review of it it was just a bit dull it shouldn't be because it's got a lot going on in the high north there's a lot of trouble and a lot of people have already copped it but it but it was strangely dull yeah I wonder, I don't know, I simply can't make it out.

36:26I wish the very best to everybody involved, but I'm afraid I just don't understand it. But maybe it's just because I'm trying to make sense of it and I simply can't follow the twists. Did you by any chance read, you know, in the business section of the, here's our message, Mandy making a brief return, the business section of the Sunday Times, they have an interview with a leading business person and it was the guy who's founded Revolut. Revolut, the bank. Did you read that? I didn't know. I'm just by no means as cerebral as you. No, no. I'd like to read sort of these personal little bits and bobs about business people.

37:01He was the most extraordinary young man. He led a very, very controlled life. He doesn't bother with never read fiction in his life. I never trust someone who doesn't read fiction, Jane. But he reads non-fiction books, but he doesn't read them. He just gets the AI explanation of what's in them instead. Right.

37:23Sorry. I know. No, I didn't like the cut of his jib. He sounded like the most peculiar, austere, wildly successful life. But gosh, not someone you could imagine having a bevy with. Well, no. Or even a chat. And actually, it's a wider thing, isn't it? Because so many of these disruptors, they do come from that side of the brain experience where emotion and connection and the highs and lows of life are the things that they have turned away from in favour of a more kind of spreadsheet way of living. And maybe that's all well and good if your life is very protected by money and you're not going to fail.

38:11But for most of us, it is more essential that we understand fellow human beings around us and what makes them tick and what makes us tick than I think it's dangerous to turn away from that. Well, I think it's just... And they make loads and loads of money, don't they? Oh, gosh, he's making loads of money. Because they have taken human emotion out of their decisions, but that doesn't work for the rest of us. It just doesn't work for the rest of us. On a daily basis, your emotions are really important to how you get through the day, Jane. Well, he didn't... I mean, he worked seven days a week. He didn't really seem to have...

38:46But who are we to argue with his success on one level? But it's a good point. Yeah, I was reading, there's another piece, and I'm coming on board as mini-corporate Cathy here in the Times with Brian Johnson's girlfriend. Oh, yes, I saw that. Now, he is the man who's hyper-optimalising his life chances. He is. So he has devoted his many, many millions through selling one of those tech companies to try and get his biological age back to 18. I think he's now in his late 40s. He's the one that the article says that he straps a small jetpack onto his penis at night so it can measure his nighttime erections.

39:26And once you've known that fact about a person, I'm sorry, there's no coming back, Brian. I don't want to meet you. I don't care if he's got a second hand. I'm not going there. That is the villa you're turned down. I tell you what, the weighted blanket's not for him. Well, you don't know. Maybe the power of his nocturnal stirrings would be such that not even the weighted blanket will be able to withstand them. Crushing, Brian, absolutely crushing. His girlfriend is also, they've been brought together. Oh, yes, she sounded lovely too. By their desire to become these strange kind of scientific experiments of human form.

40:10So she's having all kinds of things. She wears some kind of investigative tampon every night. Yes, every night. Yes, so she can find out about the internal, nocturnal goings-on in her vagina. I just love, I mean...

40:30Have an Oval Team. Have an Oval Team. Jolly good book. Read a Peter Granger. Struggle your way through an episode of Vigil. Listen to this podcast and you'll be absolutely fine. Sleep like a top. just don't worry about it I mean we won't be alive to know but wouldn't it be fascinating to find out how things are going for them in 50 years time when they're 18 when they're still absolutely 18 you just you cannot cheat yourself of the most universal experience which I'm sorry to say is aging and what that brings that does remind me we've got Zand van Tulleken on the programme next week talking about, well, about wellness and about all the, I mean, he's got, there's a chapter on the menopause, on testosterone.

41:18It's really interesting. I mean, he is really quite angry about the way so many unscrupulous individuals, shall we say, and just quacks and charlatans are making absolute fortune out of telling people exactly what you say, the stuff that it is, it will never be true. No. We are all going to die. We're all going to age. Well, good for him. I really love his stuff. I like the way he conveys it. I like his devotion to it. And we just need so, so much myth-busting. Just going back onto Instagram, I've been off it for quite a long time now. I'm now being inundated with all of that stuff all over again.

41:56And I remember how annoyed it was making me feel before and it'll be the reason why I take my leave of it again. So they've come back to you with what? Collagen? Oh my God, belly fat. Oh, belly fat. I'm just being targeted. you know somewhere in the algorithm i got stuck on she's got belly fat so i'm just being sent these endless you know this is what you need to how many steps you need to take this is the diet that you need to do solve your you know problems of world peace with cottage cheese it's just such mumbo jumbo jane and quite a lot of it's now being delivered by these ai generated characters who are very very believable there's one kind of old bloke who sits there in his shed with a leather apron telling me what I can do with my menopausal belly fat.

42:40I don't think he's real. And it's just bollocks. Why is he in a shed with an apron? Well, I see a mason. No, I think somebody has done a kind of survey of who would be the most believable person to be selling this mumbo jumbo to people. And, you know, they've realised it's your friendly grandfather. You know, it's that kind of figure. Like a shoemaker in a fairy tale. And there's just so much, you know, magnesium being rubbed on people's feet at night and all of that kind of stuff. And it does, it just makes me really, it makes me really annoyed. What's the point? Don't annoy Fee. No. That's not a good idea.

43:20Anyway, look, I've got that off my chest. Okay, thank you. You certainly have.

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45:48We love to see it.

45:52Scott Bryan writes in his new memoir, Out Now, there are many times when I've preferred television to life itself. Mostly it comes down to closure. Now, although some TV thrives because it takes us to other worlds, much of its appeal to us is when it sends our own world back to us in a sharper, funnier, cleverer or simply tidier way. So if you were gay and growing up before the last 10 years, really, you didn't see much of yourself on TV at all. And when you did, it was considered far from normal. Just think about these things. The first pre-Watershed lesbian kiss on Brookside, Headline News. The first gay characters in Biker Grove, Caps Lock, Headline News.

46:36and a play called Two of Us, which appeared to be BBC Foundation Shaking Stuff. Scott charts his path through these tricky waters of TV to the present day. And he's here now. Hello, Scott. Hi, thanks very much for that lovely introduction. Well, it's absolutely my pleasure. I really enjoyed reading your book. I mean, apart from anything else, your teenage diaries just sounded hilarious. And you would have been forgiven if you had left those out. It was a joy uncovering them because I wrote every single day of my teenage years. I think my friends refer it as Gage and Mole because I just listed in very deep, a lot of detail, like all of the crushes I had on boys, which is completely unprintable in case they find out now.

47:20As well as like life goals, one of which was have 200 pounds in a bank account, which to be fair, I didn't achieve until my mid 20s. Yeah, and things like, didn't you want to do 200 metres breaststroke without sinking? Yeah, still can't really do that that well, no. OK, and also they do sound delightful because they're juxtaposed your innermost feelings with things like the Pope died today. Yeah, there's one part where I said that the Pope died, and then the next sentence is that I am doing my GCSE revision for my coursework. Well done you, the Pope would have wanted that. So it's a very serious book, though, because it's about exactly as I said in the introduction, not seeing your own life and your own thoughts coming back at you when you watch TV.

48:05So tell us a little bit about who was in your household, who was watching TV. Where did your early life take place? So I grew up in Dorset in a very loving family. It was only, I think, when I was an adult, I realised that my family was not like others and that both my parents are air traffic controllers. So one was always asleep because one was on day shift and then the other was on night shift. there were some rather hilarious moments and in hindsight when they would be ringing to sort out a dentist appointment and then they would ask for their name and then my dad would be like Sierra Charlie Oscar Tango Tango just down the phone and I bet they got everywhere on time though didn't they it was like military precision always and they never complained I absolutely adored their their work ethic and also raising three older sisters who I'm very close to just within the same household it was like chaos but organized chaos which I admired and then when I sort of came out it was very strange because I found that there was very few opportunities where queer people were talked about on tv so I didn't know what people thought about queer people so I came out first before the household in school as a kind of a way to try it out and see what the reaction would be but then kind of retract it so I did it in French class and then weirdly in French I was sort of saying just re gay in in to a to a friend of mine and she was like remor and I was like oui and we had this sort of little fun little moment and then sensing it was going to be okay and that it wasn't a big thing I then said sure fine she told some friends very quickly the whole school knew and then sadly in my teenage years I then experienced quite a lot of homophobia I kind of used my household my sort of home as a sanctuary and particularly tv I think as a way to sort of find people who are like me but also have that form of escapism and I think when kind of school got a little bit tough because I was growing up in the age of section 28 when anything positive about gay people or any anything that reflected my life was never in school or never celebrated I think I was trying to like use tv to find somebody that I could relate to but these roles and kind of opportunities were few and far between you know I think it's it's you really latch on to them when you when you see them.

50:34So how old are you now what are we talking about your teenage tv era being this is most easily identified as who you watched on Blue Peter yeah so I had um so I'm 37 now I sort of grew up in the sort of late noughties early 2010s and then the book sort of charts all of the um sort of shows that I watched and where I was in my life then so like for example I became obsessed with Blue Peter and there's a presenter Stuart Miles who I think was kind of like I had an affinity like he wasn't out at the time but I could sense that we shared a similar identity then in the book i invited him to my 14 year old birthday party he couldn't make it and then 20 years on we actually met up for a drink and we sort of spoke about kind of the connection we had even though he had not come out at that time i think also reality tv was huge for me growing up like even though the early days of big brother and other reality shows had its problems, being made into the hero or the villain of it.

51:43I think this was the first time that queer people were celebrated for being themselves. And I think what I found growing up was a lot of times where the tabloids would be whipped up into a hysteria about a moment of intimacy on TV. A same-sex kiss would be covered by the papers for days. They'd be made into a quote-unquote debate about whether we should be talking about these, having these storylines on TV. But then you see reality TV and people winning these shows, like Will Young, like Brian Dowling, just for being themselves. And I realised that there was a split between what the public think and how they were written about.

52:23So let's talk about some of those big TV moments. I mean, I have to confess, I didn't realise that there had been such an uproar at the BBC about a play called Two of Us, which was 1987. 1987. It's sort of fascinating, really, because I wanted to start with what a show was like around the time that I was born. I was born in 1989. And in 1987 was when Section 28 was introduced by Margaret Thatcher's Conservative government. And, you know, that banned any positive messages in school about homosexuality. Around that time, by sheer coincidence, the BBC was making this film about two boys who fall in love.

53:04And it was supposed to start a sort of conversation within the classroom. It was that part of the day when the TV would come out on wheels and there'd be a couple of exercises and you would talk about it in class. As a result of the environment at the time and the toxicity, the film was pulled. Roger Tong and Leslie Stewart, Roger's the director, Leslie is the writer. they were told that they would have to make the film sort of more with a ambiguous ending plus also a kiss between the two boys removed the show is so tame is very much like heart stopper you know same school but two boys are exploring their feelings what then happens and and i found this from speaking to roger in in 1990 um it was repeated it did air um in 1988 but it was shown at 11.30 at night for various reasons, which I just find quite funny because it's a kid's show.

54:00But then it aired in 1990. When it was originally supposed to be airing in 1990, there wasn't supposed to be The Kiss. But Roger told me that thanks to what he affectionately calls a quote-unquote gay mole at the BBC, they snuck the tape out of the BBC's film library. That's such a tabloid term. Gay mole at the BBC. It was in a cage, this tape. They took the tape out, they put the kiss back in, and then that kiss was broadcast on BBC Two. Executives didn't know. The reaction they had was all positive. And for me, it was so meaningful because at a time of such homophobia, this was a kiss that was inserted.

54:43One of the first same-sex kisses on TV was a sort of thing of defiance and protest. Yeah. Those other big things that made tabloid headlines, the first pre-Watershed lesbian kiss on Brookside, I remember that being an absolutely massive thing. There's quite an age difference between you and me. So I think that must have been before your time lying on the carpet in your house in Dorset, watching other people's lives on TV. But you're so right to make the point in the book that something like that was surrounded by this huge political and moral debate, wasn't it? Where there were people who just said, no, that's completely and utterly wrong.

55:26And it wasn't just Mary Whitehouse. It was a lot of people. And people saying that's completely and utterly right. This is what we condemn other countries for now, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I sort of think that it's fascinating about the bravery of some people who know the power that TV has in our lives. I think I see it because I get correspondence from people who say how much a moment from their early years makes an impact on them now. And I sort of wrote this book because I feel passionate that some of these moments that I saw when I was 10, 11, 12 have made a big contribution to who I am as an adult.

56:05but also the bravery of some of the people who were part of these moments. I spoke to one kid who was on Biker Grove. He was 14. He was straight, but he was asked to be involved in this sort of same-sex storyline. He told me, and it was so gut-wrenching that he was homophobically attacked by one individual whilst working in a bar, which, of course, kind of hurts my head thinking about because, you know, he is a straight man, but because he was playing a gay role. but he was determined because he knew the power that his role was having and he said that he received correspondence from people who said that they were contemplating taking their own lives but then they had seen his character and role and realized that actually there was a reason to tune in through the following week's episode and it made me because there's a debate in current tv about whether queer people should play queer roles on tv and i believe in authenticity i absolutely do but from writing this it made me really think about allyship and people who have taken brave steps in a very different environment to where we are now as a matter of solidarity because they realise how important it is to play that role and we should thank those people.

57:17Yeah you say that there are moments of TV that stop you in your tracks and stay with you forever the news when Queen Elizabeth died the Brexit result and yours was when Andrew Van Camp made out with a guy in a swimming pool in a 2005 episode of Desperate Housewives. Tell us more. It was a seminal moment. I think I can still remember the camera angles. I was able to write about that entire episode without even watching Desperate Housewives. I think, as in now in terms of reviewing it again, I think it made me realise just how much I had been using TV as a way to try to work out other men because I was the only person who was out at my school I think I was using TV as a bit of hope and this was a guy who I had a crush on in the show who was navigating his own life and I think I could have used him as a kind of bit of hope for myself that there would be somebody else just like him I think kind of for right or for wrong I started to therefore think that a lot of straight guys around me were also having that same situation I used TV again and again i think in trying to work out human behavior and relationships and then whilst i was writing this book i found out that i was autistic and i think i was using tv as a way of working out how human beings communicate because storylines have i think a beginning a middle they could have a messy end they might be written poorly but there's a logic to them you can kind to work out at every point people's motivations and I think throughout my adult life I realised that actually human life is a bit more complex than that you don't always get closure and I think as I was going through my adult life I was using TV more and more as a way to try to understand human behaviour and it was only sort of post-diagnosis when I was in my early 30s that I started to realise oh hang on that's why there's been this divide because TV has been a comfort for me, in a weird way, in terms of trying to work out kind of how the rest of humans' life exists versus life itself.

59:24In the 1970s and 80s, homosexuality on television was usually camp. So there were very, very well-known camp people. You'd have Kenneth Williams, you'd have Larry Grayson, you'd have Are You Being Served? It was that level of slightly kind of, ooh, fanar, fanar humour. and I wonder what you make of that. I mean, I suppose if you were being generous, you'd say it was a kind of entry-level place, but also it's a caricature. I think it's so complex and it's something that I'm still trying to unpack now because in a way, these were people who really did pave the way for others and I also think that a lot of it, a certain extent of it, is down to sort of mainstream heterosexual appeal.

1:00:18Like this is a person that we accept into our household like because of their campness. And I think these people were viewed by millions of people and loved by millions of people. And that stretched before. I think there's something which has happened time and time again with any form of queer representation. And I call it like the curse of being first because when there's a groundbreaking person or character or TV show, it is also lumbered with all the responsibility of everything that has not been shown on TV before that it is trying to represent. And then later on, you then have so many more other people who might provide a more kind of wide variety of different reflections of people's lives.

1:01:03But you needed one person to break through and that person sort of break free. So in a weird way, I'm thankful because these people paved the way for others. And of course, there's been some phenomenal entertainers who certainly do, and I write about them, like Paula Grady, like just the fact of having Paula Grady, Lily Savage on TV in the 90s, through all forms of mainstream entertainment shows on ITV, on kid shows, on This Morning Drinking Wine. What a joy, and I think gave me a bit of hope watching in the countryside. Sometimes the humour goes too far. you talk about Matt Lucas's regrets over the Only Gay in the Village sketch in Little Britain.

1:01:44Yeah, I mean, I think Little Britain is a show which I have real, a lot of, I can't help feel for the younger version of me who was watching that show, because that was at the time when homophobia at my school was at its peak. And now I think that this was a show that as well as punched up, I think also unintentionally, you know, punched down. I don't think they were writing this show as a way to make a young kid in the countryside feel bad. But that's what it did, because I think some of the caricatures and some of the roles that they played, I think kind of gave the bullies at school, you know, who are around my age, a bit of ammunition because they see that person on TV.

1:02:29They see that person reflected with a punchline. In that case, you know, I'm the only gay in the village and I was the only gay in the village. So you can see how that gets thrown back. Now, I know that they didn't intentionally write that with that intention. But it's interesting that Matt Lucas says that he just would never, you know, he's embarrassed about it now. He would never write the character again. And I completely accept that. You know, I also know that we've changed a great deal in two decades. And like, as with everything, there are now things on TV that 20 years ago we wouldn't have.

1:03:02And I think in 20 years time, we'll look back and think about this and that. I'm sure we will. I think it's always a lesson. But for me, it shows that sometimes the power of TV can be affirming, but it can occasionally make things worse. Can we talk about Eurovision? A journalist told you that they'd reported from war zones throughout their long career, but they said they didn't find it as intense as reporting for within the Eurovision Media Centre. What fresh hell is that? That was when it was in Liverpool in 2023. so it was um a delight to be there because of course we were hosting on behalf of ukraine and uh it was a time where the city really got behind it in a really big way and it had fan media who are fans who also report on the contest and are able to be in the same room as as as established journalists and um as you can imagine an environment where there's semi-finals um grand finals the booming voice of Hannah Waddingham every 10 minutes from the stage speaking in French can become a bit much and this was when I started to realise that I might be neurodivergent because I start to experience sensory overload which is when Scott I'm not surprised just reading that chapter just made me feel so uncomfortable in my own skin oh yeah I think like by about the Wednesday I was sort of wondering why why does everything feel like it's on fire why do I feel like I'm like a roast chicken spinning next to a flame in a fancy restaurant and of course I would have stepped back and it made me realize that this has happened at festivals when the lights and sound get too much or at social occasions it takes me a long time to decompress but I had been doing it without realizing it was only at Eurovision when I was there on sort of the sixth day and I was seeing Laureen who was the winner sort of coming out of this giant Padini press on stage of course um that i realized maybe what i was experiencing wasn't the same as everyone else and then god bless him my best mate jamie when i mentioned this without thinking that it could be related to autism sort of said to me scott haven't you thought that you might be autistic and then the penny dropped because then i realized why i love tv it's my special subject well it's a delightful book to read and i did start the top of the hour at three o 'clock just reminding our listeners about Touch the Truck, the Channel 5 show from 2001 where Dale Winton gave away a truck to the person who touched it for the longest period of time.

1:05:25Let's never forget that show, Scott. It's absolutely lovely to see you here. Thank you so much for having me in. Thank you. Scott Bryan and Out Now is... Out Now! Brilliant. Brilliant. I see he hit on something there, didn't he? He really did. Well, good luck if you're going to attempt another episode of Vigil. Will there be another one this weekend? I think that's what I'm sorry. I'll probably be, I mean, just because I'm a creature of habit, I probably will just stick it on. Yeah, I probably will as well. But in case you do stick it on and you just think, I cannot wade my way through this, can I recommend a film that we watched at Family Movie Night last night?

1:06:02We always struggled to find something and we did try a Robert De Niro thriller, I think called The Whisper Man, which was so terrifying within the first 10 minutes. There was a child being held in a loft and a bloke walking upstairs with terrible kind of surgical gloves on. It's just like, no, I'm not watching that. So we hit upon a suggestion from Amazon. You didn't have to rent it or buy it. It was all part of the package called This Is Where I Leave You. Did you ever see that movie? Who's in that? It was from 2014. Jason Bateman, Tina Fey, Adam Driver, Jane Fonda, Rose Byrne, Connie Britton and Catherine Hahn.

1:06:38An exquisite cast. and it's about a slightly non-practising Jewish family who sits Shiva for the dad who's died. It's absolutely brilliant, Jane. The script is fantastic. It is really funny. It is deeply moving. Jane Fonda takes the mickey within her character out of her boob job in such a brilliant way. And I did think at what point did her agent call her and say, is it going to be okay? You've quite a lot of the script. Are you all right with this? It's about your boobs. But she does it with aplomb. I just couldn't recommend it highly enough. We just enjoyed every minute of it. We were very, very sad when it ended.

1:07:19It completely passed me by. So give it some welly. Okay. And the name of that film again? It is called This Is Where I Leave You. And that's where we'll leave it.

1:07:45Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

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