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2:28Greetings, peoples. This is a special Friday edition. It covers a topic that you may think we cover quite a lot. You may think we don't need to cover again. But this is an interview with the Labour MP Claire Hughes. She's got a very interesting story to tell about breast cancer. Interesting because she admits herself that at the age of 47, when she found a small lump under her armpit, she simply thought she was too young to have breast cancer and she put off going to see the doctor to get it treated. She is now well and she wants to alert people to having the same kind of thought process. It couldn't happen to me.

3:10I'm not old enough. My friends found a lump, they're okay. And sometimes we can bury our head in the sand about what we know to be such a common occurrence in women. So if you've got time to have a listen to this, I highly recommend that you do. When we put this out on the afternoon show, we also had a lot of messages from people who were listening at the time, saying how wonderful it was to hear a politician talk about something without getting too political about it. And all hail to that. Of course, we should talk to politicians about politics, but they're people too. Here's Claire. It's lovely to see you.

3:45Thank you very much indeed for coming in in person. Tell us about the initial reaction you had to a slightly kind of sore point of your body under your arm, which you describe in the piece in the Sunday Times as being found when you were wandering across the parliamentary estate. As you do, yeah. So I was just coming down from a meeting down to a central lobby where we go into the chamber. And I think it was just a bit of absent-minded, thought, ooh, something's like aching under my armpit, you know, when you've got swollen glands. And so I just kind of like, you know, prodded it. And when I got home that evening, I thought, you know, I'll prod it again because it was a bit sore.

4:25And in that kind of prodding, I was like, oh, it seems to be like a little lump underneath. I thought, okay, well, I'll just wait and see because maybe it's hormonal, you know, I'll just give it a bit of time. and it was still there so I was a bit like okay well you know I really should go to the doctors but you know I was busy so then I ended up thinking well I will um you know I just wasn't that concerned about it I just you know I think I said in the piece I know it's daft looking back like the way I rationalized it but like a friend of mine had quite recently been and had a lump checked out and hers was a cyst so in my mind I was like you know I should probably do the right thing I'll go and get it checked out but probably I'm sure it's nothing to worry about I just generally wasn't worried so um yeah I just kind of I kept checking it was still there and then I thought I'll go and recess you know in the summer in the summer and I actually eventually did go make that appointment how far away was recess from the time that you found the lump I think it was probably five six weeks something like that yeah it was maybe even pushing two months probably by the time I actually went and I made the appointment and then when it's probably getting towards the end of august because um maybe it's beginning middle of august because then when i got the appointment to go through for the referral to the like the one-stop shop at the hospital where you can go and get your you give you a mammogram and then if needed then ultrasound and a biopsy i remember saying when i'm going on holiday end of august it must be in middle of august so can i not have it then and then i got the appointment for you for that and then they were like and then i was like well actually can I just do it in conference recess because I don't want to you know so it's just always like pushing it back and was some of that your brain actually shutting down the negative possibilities I don't actually think it was if I'm really honest I think I was so blasé like I really think I was at that point which is when I went for that referral and then they get you know I could tell from their faces you know I came out of that one-stop shop the three things uh thinking oh no you know i'm pretty sure i've got cancer i mean obviously i had to wait for the results that's when it was all of a sudden you know i was like oh i kind of thought i was just going to go in there and they go no given a check we looked it's all fine you know i just generally didn't worry about it yeah i think i think that honestly i didn't worry until that point yeah i do love the detail that you've just given us there though that a friend of yours had had the all clear and she had a cyst and therefore that would be fine yeah i mean that's just so bonkers because were all completely different yeah exactly you also say in the piece that the part of it though was the fact that you you know you were young you are young and just tell us a little bit about that thought process yeah i think i just um not just being young but i've always been healthy do you know i mean i've been incredibly lucky throughout my life too i've never had any health conditions i've probably gone to the doctors like twice three times in 10 15 years you know i've just glided through life you know and being healthy um so i can't i think that's why it didn't really register as a as a risk for me you know i think i just took my health for granted being really honest with you um i think it was that and you know i don't have any friends of my age you know i do know other people obviously have had breast cancer but not kind of of my peers or my peer peer group or people of my age so I just say it just didn't really factor on my radar which I know is like looking back I'm just like how because now I know so much more about it and the statistics are there yeah yeah of course they are yeah I think I just hadn't really engaged with it you know I just hadn't you know I did occasionally check my breasts I mean it's not like I've never checked them I just didn't really the importance of it for someone of my age at 45 46 as I was then it just hadn't really kind of sunk in you know I just didn't take it seriously enough.

8:19Sure you were diagnosed then with triple negative breast cancer what does that mean? Basically it is a type of breast cancer that doesn't have any hormone receptors so I mean I'm no huge expert in it but basically it does restrict the types of treatment you can have so with a hormone positive breast cancer then you would have you'd have the option to be able to have potentially like hormones ongoing so you know when some people finish their treatment and then they're on a drug long long term with hormones but with a triple negative breast cancer that isn't an option i think typically triple negative breast cancers they tend to be more aggressive and faster growing so mine was a grade three so not a stage three but a grade three which has meant it was basically quite aggressive.

9:10But I think that's quite typical of triple negative breast cancer. Is it possible to know whether or not your treatment would have been different if you'd been to the doctor the same day that you found that lump? I don't think in my case it would have been because when I had the... So the first part of my treatment was a lumpectomy where they went to remove the lump. And in doing that, they also removed, I think it was three lymph nodes in your armpit to test there. and they found what's called micrometastasis. I'm probably saying that wrong, but micromets basically. So tiny fragments, I think it was in two of the lymph nodes, but it's such a small amount that micromets, they don't really class that as then having spread.

9:52So the fact that it was in two out of three, it was like, you know, I'm obviously vastly oversimplifying it, but probably I was incredibly lucky it was always like just in time. So I don't think in my case, you know, it would have made a difference but you know potentially a couple weeks a couple weeks longer could have done you know yeah you were told not to google triple negative cancer because of all of this stuff that's out there but I bet you did of course I did yeah yeah I mean evenings on end you know it's hard not to isn't it you you know especially when you initially have that diagnosis you know when I had that I mean the worst times for me were that initial week waiting for the results when I kind of as I said when I really thought oh no I'm pretty sure I've got breast cancer and then even then I was actually rationalizing though like I remember coming home and saying to my partner um by the way I think I've got breast cancer but don't worry like of all the what is it's a good one to get I mean I can't believe I actually said that you know it's um again I was rationalizing it to myself and trying to you know calm my own brain down I guess that it was okay but yeah I mean I spent a lot of time googling it and um you know looking on Reddit and whatever else, because you can't, you know, you're just trying to grasp some control of the situation, I think, because it's, you know, anyone in any job, right, you're used to having a degree of control over what you do every day, and all of a sudden you get this, you know, diagnosis, and it just throws everything, you know, out, and you're just desperately seeking information, trying to make sense of things.

11:22Oh, I'd imagine just overwhelming, absolutely overwhelming. and you have been very honest about the treatment that you received and what was going to be a lumpectomy then became something more yeah because i had the lumpectomy first um which is basically when they try and just remove the the initial area of the tumor and then they look to see what's called the margins so the edge of the lump of the lump and there was still cancer in the the bit that they took out essentially so i had a meeting with my surgeon who was incredible i have to say you know amazing can't speak highly enough of her um and then basically went through the results and they basically said well it's kind of up to you we could try again um or we can go for a mastectomy um because then we kind of know that we'd get it all and i was like let's just go for the mastectomy please you know we had a good discussion about it um but a fantastic surgeon you know at that point she was like you know okay that's fine i'll book you in for the mastectomy if you change your mind that's absolutely fine you know you don't you know even if it's on the day or in the morning you know i'm basically saying it's your decision and we talked about it together um but then i had that and again thank god that i had that because when i had the results from that it turns out there was another like smaller tumor behind it that they hadn't seen so again thank god that i had a mastectomy yeah so you might have eventually needed that anyway or that cancer could have spread.

12:49Something very good is happening about our ability to talk about breast cancer treatment now and in fact I noticed the other evening on TV I was watching an advertisement and I can't even remember what it was for so that's not great for the company that have paid for the advert but it was featuring let's say it was moisturiser or deodorant or something like that it was featuring lots of women and very openly displays somebody who's had a mastectomy, which actually, Claire, even five years ago would have been unthinkable, wouldn't it? So all of this, your ability to talk very openly about it, it changes our level of fear, doesn't it, about what we might find when we're just feeling our breasts and trying to make sure that they're healthy.

13:35That's got to carry on, hasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I think the more that we can talk about these things to my mind um it's got to be better because you've got to you know yeah exactly take away the fear demystify it a little bit you know and it's good to know obviously isn't it i mean we always want people to check their chest regularly you know find out what's normal and then obviously don't do like me you know go to your doctor as soon as you can but it's good to know that you know there are treatments out there that treatments have come on so much like you were saying you know five ten years ago my diagnosis might have meant quite a different outcome but it's you know I think it's just reassuring and to know other people are going through the same kind of things as you and there is so much support out there you know there are some fantastic charities you know there's Breast Cancer Now, Muggies etc who can just give a lot of support along the way.

14:22But at the same time Claire I also think it must feel quite frustrating when you imagine that people will always want to talk to you about one of the worst times of your life you are a labour mp you've got a very busy working life a very successful career there are other things going on for you of course yeah yeah yeah yeah but it's not frustrating you know i think you know if i can help one day i'm obviously i'm not going to say who somebody knocked on my door um and basically said oh how did you find how did you find your breast cancer because i've noticed this change it wasn't a lump it was something else but now again i had no idea until i was diagnosed and spent a lot more time reading about breast cancer the other things such as like rashes or changes to the shape of the breast or dimpling things like that can also indicate cancer she said oh i've got because i've got this this this thing as well i was just like go to the doctors you know i mean it's like i'm very lucky it's why i live really close to my gps i was just like just go and get it checked out but you know i thought oh you know and that's almost what inspired me to talk about it and actually to do the little film that i've made because i was like if i can just help one person to think actually it is scary but it is doable you know like Claire seems like she's doing all right um but you know if I could and also just reassure someone just just go and get it checked you know like it probably would be nothing but it's just worth doing that because we know that the earlier people get diagnosed the better other outcomes will be.

15:49Last week there was some research out from Cambridge University and the Institute of Cancer Research that showed breast cancer screenings for under 50s are missing up to 95 % of high-risk individuals. Why is that happening? Well, I think there's lots of different research going on, isn't there? So that came out last week. And I think what I've noticed again is that it seems to be a little bit of difference of opinion between different charities in terms of what the best approach to screening might be. I think there's other research going on into more targeted screenings of people who might have different risk profiles etc so I think there's definitely you know I was really surprised to hear that breast cancer is still the biggest disease related cause of death for women under 50 you know that you know that was really surprised about that again I don't know why why it hadn't kind of registered with me before and high risk individuals would be women who are carrying the the BRCA gene yeah um for the triple negative breast cancer um as well uh black women um is far more prevalent in black women um young women do seem to be more affected by a pre-menopausal women um but yeah family history some life lifestyle factors as well um can have an impact so i think there's lots of research happening around that um you know and there's debate there's no common consensus but i think what's really important is that that research is happening and that evidence is gathering and that whatever changes might be brought in in the future are kind of evidence-led i think that's obviously really important did you work all the way through after your diagnosis and through the treatment i worked as often as i could um and i'm um through i mean after the surgery it was obviously after both surgeries it was a recovery time I have to say there's not many jobs where you can actually sit in your living room and put TV on and watch what's going on in your place of work so in a way it was quite nice I could still be connected so that was good during chemo then I had three weekly cycles so I'd have one week where I felt awful and didn't do anything I was mostly just in bed or just lying around realistically or just trying to get out for a walk once a day but feeling pretty poorly Second week, I kind of felt better.

18:10And then the third week, I felt more or less normal. So that third week, I would tell my team, right, you know, give me stuff to do. I'll go out and do a few bits and pieces. Obviously, throughout being really mindful that you've got to be very careful because you're immunocompromised. So I wasn't going down to Westminster to vote. I had a proxy vote so that somebody was voting underneath my instruction. But yeah, that third week, I was able to do, you know, as much as possible. And throughout, you know, obviously, lots of the casework and stuff we do over email, there's lots of reading you can do so yeah I did I did work through out and in a way again it was a very welcome distraction um yeah to be able to do that and I'm privileged to have been able to do that and how are you now I'm really well really well so I'm always looking around this is the wood for me to touch somewhere inside the plastic yeah exactly um but I'm really well I think the the main difference I've noticed is that I just feel a bit achy do you mean I'm I feel stiffer And I think that's because I basically jumped into early menopause, not that early, sudden menopause, I should say.

19:13And I think, again, I've learned that because the estrogen drops very quickly, then that affects your joints, etc. So that's why I just feel, you know, can feel achy in the mornings on my legs and stuff. But other than that, I genuinely feel, I don't want to jinx it, but I genuinely feel really well. I'd say 98 % back to how I felt before, I think. You know, other than the kind of stiffness and that, then I feel really well. Yeah, well, that can creep up on you anyway. Yeah, exactly. Claire, it's really lovely to see you. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. And as Claire mentioned, she has made a short film.

19:51It'll take up about eight minutes of your time. It's available on The Times website and it is well worth a viewing. Lovely to see you. Thank you so much. The Labour MP Claire Hughes and we wish her well for the future. So that's it from Off Air with Eve and Fee for this week and Off Air with Eve and Jane returns for Monday only because then it will be Eve's holiday. Oh, thank goodness. I mean, the poor girl's just exhausted. She'll be back a week. And Jane will be doing the pod with Hannah. I hope you have a lovely, lovely time in Turkey, Eve. Thank you. I'm off for two weeks. So, I mean, I can't complain, can I?

20:31Have a fabulous time. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And we will all regroup sometime in 2036. Have a lovely summer. Goodbye.

20:54Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.

21:57Transcription by CastingWords Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge. And accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech. so you can outthink outpace and outperform pwc so you can pwc refers to the pwc network and or one or more of its member firms each of which is a separate legal entity